Pagano-Grigson Rift/Pagano to be coaching elsewhere next year [Mega-merge]

[CoachLite]

We might as well just establish it as a well known fact at this point. Personally, I'd be okay with moving on from Chuck Pagano at the end of the season. I do believe Andrew Luck covers up a bunch of warts, so I don't think every fault is on Chuck's shoulders. I just believe that there is no way Irsay will fire Grigson and that something has to change. The Colts would be able to land pretty much any head coach they want if there was a vacancy.

 

While I would hope we could land any head coach we want, I'm not so sure that's really the case. Same with signing talented free agents. I'm probably not the only one that thinks there is a problem in the Colt's organization, and it is a systemic problem (not all the blame can be placed on any one person). Other people in the NFL - players and coaches - can probably see this "problem", too. They may not know exactly what or where the problem is, but that might cause them some concern.

 

Indications: We seem unprepared for games. We tend to start games slowly and fall behind. We seem unable to make adjustments to our opponents before and during the game. We seem to try and fit players to some "scheme" rather than the scheme to the players we have. We keep doing the same things over and over, and expecting different outcomes (that's insane).

 

I think we have excellent on-field talent (even Werner!) that is under-optimized. No one's perfect. But the Colts seem to be a collection of individual players that don't play as a team (Andrew Luck is NOT the same thing as the team). I think this is a coaching problem (others may disagree). If something doesn't change for the better, we risk becoming last decade's Oakland Raiders - paying top dollar for mediocre talent and becoming an also-ran.

[CoachLite]

What happens when the players mentally give up in frustration? Has this already started to happen?

[coltsfanatic24]

I think the Dorsett pick is what caused the Pagano/Grigson rift. Pagano wanted a defensive player and Grigson drafted what was already a strong position at WR.

[Cynjin]

Good lord, why would anyone want Pep over Chud? Grigson's eye for coaching talent must be on par with eye for offensive line talent.

IF those reports about Grigson hiring Pep over Pagano's objections and having zero input on personel decisions are true, then Grigson is the problem.

[aReggie7]

I think the Dorsett pick is what caused the Pagano/Grigson rift. Pagano wanted a defensive player and Grigson drafted what was already a strong position at WR.

 

I think Jim Irsay has final say on the first round draft pick and head coach. At least I thought he said that at one time. Can anyone confirm this?

 

I'm not saying that Irsay always makes the first round selection but I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind the Dorsett pick. He was quoted after the pick as mentioning how Al Davis would have said not to pass up on the speed. I suspect he was in on the pick as much as Grigson.

[LockeDown]

Grigs seems like he may be cut from the same "control freak" cloth that Polian was.  Pagano seems like he is cut from the same "nice guy" cloth that Dungy was.   So, it seems like personality wise, they should get along.  However, this league is all about money and relationships.  Pagano could be mad because of Irsay's small offer (money) or he could be mad that Grigs didn't let him hire his buddy Chud for offensive coordinator (relationship).  They both make sense but I don't see how it became public.  The only person in the Colts FO who likes going public is Irsay, so maybe he is amping up the pressure for a Super Bowl appearance/win.  It wouldn't surprise me.     

[buccolts]

I think Jim Irsay has final say on the first round draft pick and head coach. At least I thought he said that at one time. Can anyone confirm this?

 

I'm not saying that Irsay always makes the first round selection but I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind the Dorsett pick. He was quoted after the pick as mentioning how Al Davis would have said not to pass up on the speed. I suspect he was in on the pick as much as Grigson.

 

Irsay certainly had say in the Luck pick, but I don't believe he's been THAT involved since.

Though I'm just grasping at straws like everyone else on this topic.

 

Now that the media's riled us up, we may make this out to be much more than need be, or is.

And, yes, I'm grasping at straws about that also.

Who knows, but it's fun to speculate, and that's why we're all here, I suppose.

[buccolts]

I can't wait for the season to start.......

[ColtRider]

Interesting thread. Gotta lot of insight on members the last couple days. That's a good thing. What bothers me is simplistic. The notion that a single franchise can go and participate in a Super Bowl each year, let alone win it every time is ludicrous. Yes, each strives to reach that pinnacle every year. Yes, each make moves every year because of it. But the idea that "instant success" be reached after those moves really clouds reality. The Colts have progressed each year under Grigson & Pagano. We've lost 1 opening game against arguably the best defense in football. The penalties and turnovers further exacerbated that.

Yet, many are ready to jump ship? Doesn't make any sense to me. Yield more slack, and see what happens this season before ordering a guillotine platter for the entire coaching staff and GM.

[dgambill]

i think the colts have a ton of average....especially on defense. Who are the whole bunch of pass rushers? The defense is Vontae and a whole lot of guys hovering around replaceable. i love the future prospects of Anderson though.

The offense is, once again, held back by a mediocre (at best) offensive line and Pep's atrocious play calling.

I think when Toler is healthy he is a good corner...above avg as far as a #2. I also think Coles and Mathis are talented guys and Anderson and Langford and if Jones was healthy he is very good too. I do think our LBs are very much below avg but hopefully some moves in the offseason help with that...and our safeties are too. We have a big weak spot in the middle of the field so we definately have holes to fill. On offense we have great playmakers all over the place....but yes our OL just hasn't done enough to help establish the running game we need to be balanced...but we have plenty of talent imo..I guess not yours but I think we have SB caliber team here with the right moves/calls.

[Defjamz26]

Interesting thread. Gotta lot of insight on members the last couple days. That's a good thing. What bothers me is simplistic. The notion that a single franchise can go and participate in a Super Bowl each year, let alone win it every time is ludicrous. Yes, each strives to reach that pinnacle every year. Yes, each make moves every year because of it. But the idea that "instant success" be reached after those moves really clouds reality. The Colts have progressed each year under Grigson & Pagano. We've lost 1 opening game against arguably the best defense in football. The penalties and turnovers further exacerbated that.

Yet, many are ready to jump ship? Doesn't make any sense to me. Yield more slack, and see what happens this season before ordering a guillotine platter for the entire coaching staff and GM.

It's not over one game though. It's over things that Colts fans and analysts around the league have noticed since 2012. It seems that problems the Colts have had since the new regime came in still persist.

How many times are we on this forum after an ugly loss, saying the same things? It's always " Lack of discipline, we shot ourselves in the foot too much" "Don't blame the defense, the offense couldn't get anything going until late", "Defense played alright but the tackling was bad", "Pass protection was fine but no one was open", "Run game was working but we abandoned it too early".

[ColtRider]

I hear ya, Dj26. And I fully understand that point of view. All I'm saying is give this team (that means everyone) the rest of the season to prove their salt. If it goes south, then it's up to Irsay to decide the next move. Whether or not changes come at the end will be a HUGE decision to make. The flip side of changing venue that no one had brought up to this point is, making changes and having THAT fall flat on its face. Be careful what people wish for. You never know.

[crazycolt1]

While I would hope we could land any head coach we want, I'm not so sure that's really the case. Same with signing talented free agents. I'm probably not the only one that thinks there is a problem in the Colt's organization, and it is a systemic problem (not all the blame can be placed on any one person). Other people in the NFL - players and coaches - can probably see this "problem", too. They may not know exactly what or where the problem is, but that might cause them some concern.

 

Indications: We seem unprepared for games. We tend to start games slowly and fall behind. We seem unable to make adjustments to our opponents before and during the game. We seem to try and fit players to some "scheme" rather than the scheme to the players we have. We keep doing the same things over and over, and expecting different outcomes (that's insane).

 

I think we have excellent on-field talent (even Werner!) that is under-optimized. No one's perfect. But the Colts seem to be a collection of individual players that don't play as a team (Andrew Luck is NOT the same thing as the team). I think this is a coaching problem (others may disagree). If something doesn't change for the better, we risk becoming last decade's Oakland Raiders - paying top dollar for mediocre talent and becoming an also-ran.

Oakland? Pretty high knee jerk reaction.

[crazycolt1]

It's not over one game though. It's over things that Colts fans and analysts around the league have noticed since 2012. It seems that problems the Colts have had since the new regime came in still persist.

How many times are we on this forum after an ugly loss, saying the same things? It's always " Lack of discipline, we shot ourselves in the foot too much" "Don't blame the defense, the offense couldn't get anything going until late", "Defense played alright but the tackling was bad", "Pass protection was fine but no one was open", "Run game was working but we abandoned it too early".

But it's never giving credit to the teams that the Colts lost to. Some seem to think that because players are Colts their are suppose to be better than any other players in the league. It's always not about how good other teams players are, it's all about how bad the Colts are.

[RockThatBlue]

I hear ya, Dj26. And I fully understand that point of view. All I'm saying is give this team (that means everyone) the rest of the season to prove their salt. If it goes south, then it's up to Irsay to decide the next move. Whether or not changes come at the end will be a HUGE decision to make. The flip side of changing venue that no one had brought up to this point is, making changes and having THAT fall flat on its face. Be careful what people wish for. You never know.

I agree with you. I'm not giving up on the Colts and I would gladly eat a huge dish of crow if Pagano proves me wrong.

[Narcosys]

I guess I'm not following the reports that Chuck has no say. Are they implying that he is surprised by roster moves?

I think what the reports mean is that Chuck and Grigs DISAGREE on personnel decisions.

Who usually wins in that disagreement? Grigson. So grigson has final say. Meaning chuck in the end has none.

[BOTT]

IF those reports about Grigson hiring Pep over Pagano's objections and having zero input on personel decisions are true, then Grigson is the problem.

The IF was implied

[CanuckColt]

IF those reports about Grigson hiring Pep over Pagano's objections and having zero input on personel decisions are true, then Grigson is the problem.

Good Gawd, I hope this is not the case.

If this is true, Grigson needs to clean up his mess called Pep Hamilton immediately and turn the OC reigns over to Chudzinski...like yesterday!

[YourTearinApartLisa!]

Pagano should have got the axe after last season's embarrassment of an AFC championship game. I understand the Pats are good but we were just out coached in every facet of the game. It feels eerily like the Manning years and Dungy. Only difference Manning and Tom Moore were able to cover our flaws in a alot of ways. Pep I just think has it and Luck isn't there yet. Hall of fame wideouts and a decent Oline help too though.

[Cynjin]

The IF was implied

I didn't say it wasn't.

[BigQandTheManiac]

It sounds like Grigson is the problem more then anything. Not asking Pagano for his input and belittling him when it comes to certain decisions. And if that's the case then HE needs to go.

[RockThatBlue]

It would essentially be jim caldwell all over again.

Lord help our Colts.

Honestly I think he'd be worse than Caldwell. Caldwell got us to a super bowl and not sure we'd sniff a super bowl under Pep.

[JPPT1974]

It seems for Pagano after all he has gone through, it is SB or bust. It is Grigson, not the coach that needs to be removed.

[John Waylon]

Honestly I think he'd be worse than Caldwell. Caldwell got us to a super bowl and not sure we'd sniff a super bowl under Pep.

Ehhhhh. You gotta remember: he inherited that super bowl team. None of that was really his architecture. He just took over where Dungy left off.

[Patagonia Chris]

I don't know if anyone here reads Deadspin or not, but I thought this article they posted about Pagano and Grigson was worth a read. Kind of confirms what most of us here had already known. I think this ordeal is on the verge of getting out of hand and this may be Mr. Irsay reaping what he sows.

 

http://deadspin.com/the-colts-are-a-mess-behind-the-scenes-too-1732289898

[Dustin]

Several sources say Grigson-Pagano rift deals with differing agendas, Grigson focused on development, big picture, Pagano looking to win now

— Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL)

September 22, 2015

[IndyD4U]

That's a hell of a title. lol

[Bubbz]

what does forcing richardson and other trash players to start have to do with the teams long term development?

[Surge89]

Several sources say Grigson-Pagano rift deals with differing agendas, Grigson focused on development, big picture, Pagano looking to win now

— Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL)

September 22, 2015

 

 

Wait, wait... So the GM who is signing FA, forcing rookies to start now and not drafting Corner/ILB/OT depth is drafting and thinking about the future? LOL one of the most backwards things I think I've seen in about 10 hours...

 

Btw didn't Grigson himself say the object is to win now before he puts a constraint on his Cap space?

[GoDeep]

Wasn't there some story about Grigson writing a note to himself that read "Protect 12". I'm tired of watching mediocre QBs look great behind a good line.  Can you imagine what 12 would look like with a pocket to work from?

 

It must be maddening to be Pagano. This offense should have some fire power to it. The OL is a mess (save AC and JM). THIS IS WHAT I'M GIVEN TO PROTECT MY STAR QB WITH?

 

Phillip Dorsett was a wasted pick. It may look good in a few years, but we are supposed to be in "win now" mode.

 

And I don't claim to be an X and O guy, but even a fan can tell that the play calling is ridiculous. Counter the pass rush. Luck should touch the ball for 2 seconds each play until they back off.

 

First rant since last night. Sorry I'm all over the place.

[crazycolt1]

Irsay reaping what he sows? Up to this point the job that Grigson and Pagano has done was a good thing in the big picture. In three seasons the Colts over achieved. I agree it's time for change but you cant lay the blame on Irsay in the sense that you have. Irsay has left the door open for changes and I am sure they will be some made. Pagano's contract is up at the end of the season. Grigson just has one year left on his at the end of the season. I don't have a clue as to what Irsay is going to do but his expectations are high. I am not going to sit here and suggest on what needs to be done because I am a fan, not a qualified owner, GM or coach like some seem to think they are. To many seem to think they have the answers and let their emotions run wild because they are fans. (short for fanatics)  I don't think Irsay is going to let this stuff fester like he did with Polian. The main concern on the field right now is turnovers and penalties. Those are the two things the players have control over.

[The Peytonator]

Hate to say it guys, Pagano will be the fall guy. Pep Hamilton will be the head coach next year. The only way that is not the case, is if Irsay burns the whole thing down.

 

Please Jim, if you care about this franchise, you will not allow a Grigson/Hamilton administration going into next year. 

[GoDeep]

Hate to say it guys, Pagano will be the fall guy. Pep Hamilton will be the head coach next year. The only way that is not the case, is if Irsay burns the whole thing down.

 

Please Jim, if you care about this franchise, you will not allow a Grigson/Hamilton administration going into next year. 

Pep has only showed an ability to not adjust to reality.  Hopefully he goes too.

[Tsarquise]

Lol I feel like it is the opposite. But what do I know?

[JColts72]

Good Lord please No Pep as HC- Perhaps Andrew can have some say into this.

[The Peytonator]

The guy that is looking for development signs a bunch of 30-somethings that were cut from their career teams. 

[Nadine]

That's a legitimate difference and something that should have been discussed before the partnership was forged.

 

So, yeah, I can understand frustration but, if it wasn't talked about in advance.......it's on both of them

 

If it was, but changed, that's something else

 

The challenge is moving forward with what you've got.  Players, coaches, owners, fans.......all of us want to win now.  We're several years into this.  So, building for the future should have been done already

[bababooey]

Easy for him to say when he's on contract longer

[Patagonia Chris]

Irsay reaping what he sows? Up to this point the job that Grigson and Pagano has done was a good thing in the big picture. In three seasons the Colts over achieved. I agree it's time for change but you cant lay the blame on Irsay in the sense that you have. Irsay has left the door open for changes and I am sure they will be some made. Pagano's contract is up at the end of the season. Grigson just has one year left on his at the end of the season. I don't have a clue as to what Irsay is going to do but his expectations are high. I am not going to sit here and suggest on what needs to be done because I am a fan, not a qualified owner, GM or coach like some seem to think they are. To many seem to think they have the answers and let their emotions run wild because they are fans. (short for fanatics)  I don't think Irsay is going to let this stuff fester like he did with Polian. The main concern on the field right now is turnovers and penalties. Those are the two things the players have control over.

 

When I said "reaping what he sows" I was referencing that Irsay has allowed Grigson to have too much control and that's why we're where we are with this rift. Pagano should have control over his starting lineup and game day inactives. That doesn't seem to be the case.

[COLTS449]

I'm with Pagano. Grigs needs to realize that we can win titles now and be more aggressive.