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Pagano-Grigson Rift/Pagano to be coaching elsewhere next year [Mega-merge]


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Really??? I think we have a TON of talent...I'm not here to get down on the coaches to hard but I just don't think we have a championship caliber leader at the top. Do you honestly think if Bill Bellicheck coached this team he couldn't win a SB with it? I think a coach like John Harbaugh or Mike McCarthy etc could win it too with this team. We have play makers on both sides of the ball. A lock down corner....some really good pass rushers...all kinds of weapons on offense. I just feel we get outcoached/game planed/techniqued whatever you want to call it. I also don't think our guys have the same sense of urgency or hold themselves to the standard they need for greatness. Guys like Brady/Manning/Brees they make sure everyone is being held to that high standard...starting in practice right through the game....imo Luck sometimes could get in some peoples faces a bit too...he always takes responsibility but sometimes he needs to hold his receivers/lineman's feet to the fire....expect more from them too. Don't get me wrong...yesterday was bad for him too but I think you catch my drift. We have talent...lets hold our guys to that standard.

i think the colts have a ton of average....especially on defense. Who are the whole bunch of pass rushers? The defense is Vontae and a whole lot of guys hovering around replaceable. i love the future prospects of Anderson though.

The offense is, once again, held back by a mediocre (at best) offensive line and Pep's atrocious play calling.

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Honestly, I think it's more of a GM problem than a coaching problem. Although there is plenty to be said about how the team has gotten blown out at seemingly random points in the season. But here's why I think it's more of a Grigson problem than a Pagano one:

 

-Pagano has virtually no say in his coaching staff according to multiple reports. Word was that he wanted Chud to be the offensive coordinator and that didn't happen. The compromise appears to be that he is on staff as a special assistant to the head coach and likely consults with Pep more often than not on the offense.

 

-The Colts defense clearly is lacking in talent. Outside of Vontae Davis, the Colts defense is largely without playmakers. There isn't another player on that defense (outside of Mathis when healthy, whom Grigson didn't even draft) that puts fear in opposing offenses.

 

-Pagano also has no say in personnel decisions either from what reports have said. It's hard to make the type of meal you want when someone else is buying the groceries. Why in the world would this be any different with a new head coach? Would Grigson and Irsay give more autonomy to another coach than they gave Pagano? I doubt it.

 

-Grigson's drafting has been shoddy. Outside of 2012, he's missed on a large number of his draft picks. The Trent Richardson trade was a disaster. Werner was on special teams yesterday. And to top it off, every single free agent from 2013 is no longer on the team.

 

Ultimately, you can't expect Pagano or any other coaching staff to make a defense great when he can't pick the players he wants and the players he has are mediocre to flat out bad. If Pagano goes, Grigson should too.

Where did you read/hear about Pagano having no control over his coaching staff? I would be stunned if that is true.

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I have been a Colt fan for over 45 years and in all these years the only coverage the Colts have gotten is NEGATIVE. Where have you people been? The one thing that says it all about media propaganda coverage of the Colts was back in 09 when the Colts were sitting at 14-0 and the brainless Meshawn Johnson said, "I can tell you right now there are three teams in the AFC the Colts do not want to face in the playoffs" WHAT A *! But,hey, that has been typical media coverage of the Colts since 1972. You figure it out, I can't.

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Where did you read/hear about Pagano having no control over his coaching staff? I would be stunned if that is true.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/9/13/9319071/chuck-pagano-colts-gm-ryan-grigson-hot-seat

 

That's just an article reiterating what a lot of other reports have said. The prime example is Chud and Pep Hamilton but I wouldn't be surprised if it applies to other staff positions as well.

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Yeah, Khaled Holmes committed a penalty on the first drive because Grigson and Pagano don't like each other.

Freeman overran the TD because Pagano and Grigson disagreed about the Colts first round pick in April.

I can't figure what I dislike more, seeing the Colts lose, or all the overreacting among the fans and media.

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http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/9/13/9319071/chuck-pagano-colts-gm-ryan-grigson-hot-seat

 

That's just an article reiterating what a lot of other reports have said. The prime example is Chud and Pep Hamilton but I wouldn't be surprised if it applies to other staff positions as well.

Good lord, why would anyone want Pep over Chud? Grigson's eye for coaching talent must be on par with eye for offensive line talent.

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So if Pagano reportedly has no say in personnel issues, did Grigson make the decision to basically transform the DL without input from Chuck?

 

Grigs picks up Anderson and Parry, McGill and Winn and dumps Hughes and Chap then tells Chuck that its his responsibility to coach a different style of DL?

 

I think they collaborate on decisions, and ther differences are overblown. 

 

The Pep hiring and the wild rumors of him being a HC candidate during the offseason, then the hiring of Chud, seems to be the oddest inconsistency here.  Why exactly was Pep hired..to benefit Luck? 

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Pep is the first one who needs to go. 

If this is on Grigson, then he needs to clean up his mess, admit the mistake, and bring in a new OC.

 

Next, Pagano MUST change into the players' boss and tail-kicker (when necessary)...no more pals with his players and cheerleading them. Chuck MUST get tough and become the boss and leader...otherwise he is done here and won't get a head coach gig again. Also, Chuck MUST find a way to get his team psychologically prepared, emotionally UP, and motivated for every game from the opening gun...it does not occur automatically just because the team had a good practice.

And last and toughest, Chuck must learn how to make in-game adjustments when things are not going so well (maybe this one needs to come from the new OC....and Pep really needs to be gone, like yesterday)

 

So get it done Grigs and Chuck, clean up that MESS at OC, the college guy learning on the job and making things up as he goes along.

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So if Pagano reportedly has no say in personnel issues, did Grigson make the decision to basically transform the DL without input from Chuck?

 

Grigs picks up Anderson and Parry, McGill and Winn and dumps Hughes and Chap then tells Chuck that its his responsibility to coach a different style of DL?

 

I think they collaborate on decisions, and ther differences are overblown. 

 

The Pep hiring and the wild rumors of him being a HC candidate during the offseason, then the hiring of Chud, seems to be the oddest inconsistency here.  Why exactly was Pep hired..to benefit Luck? 

 

I heard that letting Josh Chapman go didn't set well with Pagano as well as teammates. Again, not trying to stir the pot, just reitiering what I've seen in reports.

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At this point, I would love to see the Colts treat the media ala. BB & Co. "Yes, No, Hey you guys write what you want because that's what you are going to do anyway".  "Any more questions? Thank You! I'm outta here"

 

If the media is going to treat you crappy, give it back in spades.

If they want access, treat the team with respect.

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I have been a Colt fan for over 45 years and in all these years the only coverage the Colts have gotten is NEGATIVE. Where have you people been? The one thing that says it all about media propaganda coverage of the Colts was back in 09 when the Colts were sitting at 14-0 and the brainless Meshawn Johnson said, "I can tell you right now there are three teams in the AFC the Colts do not want to face in the playoffs" WHAT A *! But,hey, that has been typical media coverage of the Colts since 1972. You figure it out, I can't.

45 years! 44 seasons and from NY.

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I heard that letting Josh Chapman go didn't set well with Pagano as well as teammates. Again, not trying to stir the pot, just reitiering what I've seen in reports.

I guess I'm not following the reports that Chuck has no say. Are they implying that he is surprised by roster moves?

 

I think what the reports mean is that Chuck and Grigs DISAGREE on personnel decisions. 

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I've had the general attitude that the media is stupid. Beyond the local guys I don't put any stock into anything anyone else writes.

There are a few of the local "pot stirrers" I'm beginning to get real tired of too!

 

Quite honestly I think that is where the "Insider Information" is coming from.

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There are a few of the local "pot stirrers" I'm beginning to get real tired of too!

 

Quite honestly I think that is where the "Insider Information" is coming from.

Yeah, I should be more specific. I really like Stephen Holder. Some of the others have some good articles but occaisionally act like the media that I dislike. 

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Hey Jcolt72, it's been over 45 years and right in the heart of Steeler country, just imagine the crap I hear every time we play those guys especially since we have only beaten them 3 times since 72.

 

Those painful playoff memories; 75, 76, 95, 96, Ben's tackle; 95 was heart breaking with so many missed chances to pull ahead.

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First off, its becoming clear that this rumor has teeth to it. I dismissed it at first but there's way too much smoke for there to not be a fire. I really hope this does not become a huge distraction to the team, I just can't imagine how it couldn't be at least a mild distraction knowing your bosses could be on their way out next off season.

Thoughts on Pagano. He is a great guy and nobody would ever question his character but I think he's just an average coach who looks good because of his quarterback. His game planning skills and the staffs game planning skills leave a lot to be desired. We look complete and totally lost more often and not, and we come out flat way too many games each season (happened again yesterday) and we are not a very disciplined team. I would be ok with moving on from him next season as long as we find a good replacement.

Thoughts on Grigson. Personally I don't think he's nearly as bad as most say but I think he's average to above average most off seasons. He hits more oftan than not but when he misses it he misses very bad. I don't wanna go through a list but we all know the bad misses he's had that have hurt the team, but I think he's a solid GM and this past draft it looks like he did very well. I think if we can that the colts should keep him. I think this team has more of a Pagano problem than a Grigson problem.

Just my thoughts on everything...

 

Pagano looks lost again  after not having his team ready  it's not hard to out coach him luck makes him look good.

 

 

Pagano has only lost back to back games in the regular season once in his 3 years here.  That was last year when we started 0-2 -- and the reason we lost the 2nd game was because Luck threw a stupid pick at the end of the game.  To me, that is a clear indicator that he knows how to game plan and fix mistakes.  Sorry, but the Pats were a much better team than we were last year (and just about every coach in the league has been outcoached by Bellichek multiple times).

 

Luck has definitely helped mask a lot of the flaws on this team, but the coaches deserve at least some of the credit. 

 

Sure, there were a few games last year where we got blown out, but look at our defensive roster (especially without a healthy Art Jones) -- our starting unit had one very good player (Vontae Davis), a couple of slightly above average players (Mike Adams, D'Qwell Jackson -- though many would argue that D'Qwell isn't above average -- and Butler if you look at him strictly as a slot corner), a couple of average players (Toler, Redding, Walden -- though not long ago many on here were calling Walden terrible), and a group of below average players (RJF, Landry, Freeman, Chapman and Werner -- some might put Freeman at average at best, while others may move Landry and Werner from below average to terrible).  We wound up 11th overall in the league with that group, a group with about 50% of it being below average.  Sure, we played some games vs. our AFC South opponents, but we also had some stellar games like when we shut out the playoff bound Cincinatti Bengals, or when we held Baltimore to 13, or when we held Cincy to 10 and Denver to 13 in the playoffs.

 

Now, let's move to offense from last year -- Andrew is very good, TY is very good, Reggie was very good until week 7 when he got hurt (our whole offense suffered after this) -- the rest of our offense from last year I would rank like this -- above (perhaps just slightly) average: Costanzo, Dwayne Allen, maybe Fleener -- average: maybe Fleener, Mewhort -- below average: the rest of our OL besides Mewhort and Costanzo, which rotated all season, Moncrief/Nicks as our #2 WR -- terrible: Trent Richardson, some of the OL who we were forced to start.  So that is again almost 50% of our offense who was below average or terrible last year and we still managed to have one of the best offenses in all of football. 

 

At the NFL level, there is, IMO, only so much a coach can do to improve a player, in large part because the majority of the players in this league have been playing for most of their lives and have received high levels of coaching at the college ranks.  Sure, there are some young athletes who are a little raw that coaches can mold a bit (Pagano has done this with Vontae Davis), and some players take a few years to adjust to the speed of the game, etc... but for the most part the only way for a coach to actually 'make a player better' is to put him into a scheme that works for him.  Of our 22 starters from last year on offense and defense (not counting Reggie Wayne or Art Jones because they were unavailable or banged up for more than 1/2 the year) -- 10 or 11 of them are below average talents (that is 45-50% of our roster which is below average at the NFL level) -- Pagano didn't put those players on the field, but by having a defense that ranked 11th overall, an offense that ranked 6th overall, and winning 11 games plus 2 post-season games, at least to me, says our coaches didn't do all that bad.

 

If we were to go back to 2013-14 season -- we beat teams that were better than us on paper in Seattle, San Fran, Denver, and Kansas City.

 

In summary, the talent we have had on the team since Pagano has been here has been average at best -- we've got a very good young QB in Luck, and TY and Vontae really started to emerge as very good players last year -- otherwise, we have mostly had players that are just slightly above average, average, or below average.  This year, at least on paper, we have the most talented roster we have had to date.  We lost one game, but Pagano doesn't have a track record for allowing this team to lose back-to-back games.  He isn't the one putting the players on the field, but there is no arguing he has done a good job, with what he has had to deal with, of getting his team to the playoffs and winning since he's been here.  I, personally, think we have overachieved to this point (especially in year 1 and 2), and believe we will continue to improve as a team as the talent on the team improves.

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So true, so true...especially the Pep exit.

Peps game plan was a nightmare yesterday, I mean every thrown was to TY mainly. This could be draw up in the dirt in one's backyard. Gore will be lucky to get 600 yards rushing and if AJ gets less then 900 yards, will then that will say a lot about game planning.

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http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/09/indianapolis-colts-chuck-pagano-ryan-grigson-andrew-luck

USA today claiming that infighting is why the Colts lost Sunday....thoughts

 

Question.......   did you actually.....   READ the story?

 

Because there's nothing new here.      This is a story ABOUT the stories that ran right here over the weekend,  that we all talked about.     This is USA Today reporting what OTHER media members are reporting.

 

So,  over the weekend we had a thread about what the media reporters were reporting.    And now we have a story about what the reporters are reporting.

 

There is ZERO new here.    Nothing.

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I heard that letting Josh Chapman go didn't set well with Pagano as well as teammates. Again, not trying to stir the pot, just reitiering what I've seen in reports.

It might not have set well with them but it looks to be the right move at least early.  I know you aren't saying if it was the right move or not but I think letting him go was the right call. 

 

The other move that came between Pagano and Grigson was going back to last year with the whole center situation.  I remember when Shipley was first benched for Harrison Pagano all but said not my idea.  In the end the right guy (Holmes) has become the center as I think he has been the best of the three but if Grigson made the call on playing Harrison then that would explain why Pagano was so strange about it last year.

 

One of the local radio guys said something that was really true last week, a head coach has to win today at any cost while a GM has to make sure the team is in position to win for years to come and not just today.  If you look at the divide between Pagano and Grigson I think that is what comes between them and it could simply be a first time head coach and a first time GM not knowing how to balance that relationship.

 

Coaches and GMs disagreeing is not a new story.  Dungy talked about how Polian and him disagreed on players and named Freeney and Sanders as two examples and how one of them had to talk the other into each player (Dungy liking Freeney and Polian liking Sanders I believe but it might have been reversed).  I think the key there is that Polian and Dungy could disagree but make the other feel like they were listened too.  I get the feeling Pagano doesn't always feel like his opinion is listened too and he is often overruled and Grigson does so on the grounds that he's the GM and has the power to do so.  Again, that could be a first time GM and a first time HC not knowing that balance. 

 

I also think that based on some reports that Grigson might be over reaching on his power.  IE, the GM shouldn't be telling the HC who is going to play and who isn't and who he should hire for his staff and who he shouldn't.

 

With that all said right now I think I would side with keeping Grigson over Pagano.  While I think both have done a good job I think Grigson has done a better job.  I have also left games wondering what was going on with the coaching staff but for the most part I have felt we have had enough talent to win.  I guess I side more with how the talent is being used at times than I do with if there is enough talent.

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Please for the love of all that is sacred in this world, NEVER EVER EVER EVER SHARE ANYTHING FROM BRAD WELLS. He's the twitter equivalent of Skip Bayless...... 

 

This might be my favorite post of yours since I joined here 3 years ago....

 

Thanks for saying that......       :thmup:

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It might not have set well with them but it looks to be the right move at least early. I know you aren't saying if it was the right move or not but I think letting him go was the right call.

The other move that came between Pagano and Grigson was going back to last year with the whole center situation. I remember when Shipley was first benched for Harrison Pagano all but said not my idea. In the end the right guy (Holmes) has become the center as I think he has been the best of the three but if Grigson made the call on playing Harrison then that would explain why Pagano was so strange about it last year.

One of the local radio guys said something that was really true last week, a head coach has to win today at any cost while a GM has to make sure the team is in position to win for years to come and not just today. If you look at the divide between Pagano and Grigson I think that is what comes between them and it could simply be a first time head coach and a first time GM not knowing how to balance that relationship.

Coaches and GMs disagreeing is not a new story. Dungy talked about how Polian and him disagreed on players and named Freeney and Sanders as two examples and how one of them had to talk the other into each player (Dungy liking Freeney and Polian liking Sanders I believe but it might have been reversed). I think the key there is that Polian and Dungy could disagree but make the other feel like they were listened too. I get the feeling Pagano doesn't always feel like his opinion is listened too and he is often overruled and Grigson does so on the grounds that he's the GM and has the power to do so. Again, that could be a first time GM and a first time HC not knowing that balance.

I also think that based on some reports that Grigson might be over reaching on his power. IE, the GM shouldn't be telling the HC who is going to play and who isn't and who he should hire for his staff and who he shouldn't.

With that all said right now I think I would side with keeping Grigson over Pagano. While I think both have done a good job I think Grigson has done a better job. I have also left games wondering what was going on with the coaching staff but for the most part I have felt we have had enough talent to win. I guess I side more with how the talent is being used at times than I do with if there is enough talent.

Well said and I 100% agree

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If Pagano and Grigson do not come together in some way this is going to be a long season.  Like I heard on local sports radio, Irsay should tell the media both of them are being evaluated to come back next year.  Both are at fault for how this season goes.  Especially if it is bad.

 

I heard on national sports radio that Luck might be a good fit for the Arizona Cardinals once Palmer retires in a year or two.  I said this in a previous post I started.  Luck has leverage here.  No extension and one year left on his contract.  If Irsay and the rest keep this up Luck has the ability to move on.

 

Luck has leverage?       Exactly what kind of leverage does he have?

 

Next year is the 5th year of his contract.      If he said he's not signing,  here's what would happen.

 

We'd franchise tag him in 2017.     Then we'd franchise tag him in 2018.      Then we'd franchise tag him in 2019.

 

Luck doesn't have that much leverage.    And he's not the type of play that type of game.

 

Sorry,  but the part I put in bold is simply not correct.   Sports talk radio,  even national sports talk radio,  often has very little accurate information.

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If Pagano and Grigson do not come together in some way this is going to be a long season.  Like I heard on local sports radio, Irsay should tell the media both of them are being evaluated to come back next year.  Both are at fault for how this season goes.  Especially if it is bad.

 

I heard on national sports radio that Luck might be a good fit for the Arizona Cardinals once Palmer retires in a year or two.  I said this in a previous post I started.  Luck has leverage here.  No extension and one year left on his contract.  If Irsay and the rest keep this up Luck has the ability to move on.

Franchise Tag says Luck is staying here.  Irsay gave up Peyton Manning there is no way Irsay let's him out of Indianapolis. 

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Ready? Ask Aaron Rogers if the Bills defense is any good and that was without Ryan as head coach. Pagano has zero to do with penalties and turnovers. And that in itself is why the Colts lost to the Bills. The Bills first game at home with a new coach was a buss saw. The Colts couldn't have a worse team to face opening the season with. It also takes a whole team effort, not just the QB.

Excuses excuses :thmdown:

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Question.......   did you actually.....   READ the story?

 

Because there's nothing new here.      This is a story ABOUT the stories that ran right here over the weekend,  that we all talked about.     This is USA Today reporting what OTHER media members are reporting.

 

So,  over the weekend we had a thread about what the media reporters were reporting.    And now we have a story about what the reporters are reporting.

 

There is ZERO new here.    Nothing.

Yes, sadly i did. And while yes it was a re-reporting of rumors, the fact they tried to spin the loss onto a rift is well sad...

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I guess I'm not following the reports that Chuck has no say. Are they implying that he is surprised by roster moves?

I think what the reports mean is that Chuck and Grigs DISAGREE on personnel decisions.

Who usually wins in that disagreement? Grigson. So grigson has final say. Meaning chuck in the end has none.

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Honestly, I think it's more of a GM problem than a coaching problem. Although there is plenty to be said about how the team has gotten blown out at seemingly random points in the season. But here's why I think it's more of a Grigson problem than a Pagano one:

 

-Pagano has virtually no say in his coaching staff according to multiple reports. Word was that he wanted Chud to be the offensive coordinator and that didn't happen. The compromise appears to be that he is on staff as a special assistant to the head coach and likely consults with Pep more often than not on the offense.

 

-The Colts defense clearly is lacking in talent. Outside of Vontae Davis, the Colts defense is largely without playmakers. There isn't another player on that defense (outside of Mathis when healthy, whom Grigson didn't even draft) that puts fear in opposing offenses.

 

-Pagano also has no say in personnel decisions either from what reports have said. It's hard to make the type of meal you want when someone else is buying the groceries. Why in the world would this be any different with a new head coach? Would Grigson and Irsay give more autonomy to another coach than they gave Pagano? I doubt it.

 

-Grigson's drafting has been shoddy. Outside of 2012, he's missed on a large number of his draft picks. The Trent Richardson trade was a disaster. Werner was on special teams yesterday. And to top it off, every single free agent from 2013 is no longer on the team.

 

Ultimately, you can't expect Pagano or any other coaching staff to make a defense great when he can't pick the players he wants and the players he has are mediocre to flat out bad. If Pagano goes, Grigson should too.

 

To be fair I was impressed by Anderson and Parry. . . but I agree it's a Grigson problem more then a Pagano one.  We couldn't move the offense because of bad pass protection.  

 

There is no way Lance Louis should be option A at guard for any team in the NFL.  Yet that's who it is for us.  

 

Cherilus was apparently healthy but Grigson decided he was getting too much money so instead of just biting the bullet and paying him that in the middle of a SB run he cut him weakening our line further.  Leaving a guy with very little experience starting at RT and a gaping hole the size of Lance Louis at guard.

 

Too many first round busts, too many FA busts.  You can count a couple really good Grigson moves on your hand.  Davis, Walden, Hilton (although I've heard Hilton was drafted based on scouting reports left by the old regime.) and then you can make a huge list of terrible Grigson moves if you count trades, FA signings, and draft picks.  Grigson swings for the fences a lot but he's not even batting 200 . . . I'd rather just have a GM who knows how build a team around a core set of stars and get some solid role players in there.  

 

Again I think Plan A coming into the season being Lance Louis seals it.  

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