Pagano-Grigson Rift/Pagano to be coaching elsewhere next year [Mega-merge]

[Jason_]

I'm buying, folks. 100%

 

I think it's mutual. I think Grigson wants someone new, and I think Chuck is finding it difficult to work under Grigson. If I had to guess, I'd say the Dorsett pick was the straw the broke the camel's back. Pagano likely wanted help for the defense, not a 4th string WR. Since it was too late to part ways at that point, they decided to simply ride the season out, and win as much as possible since that benefits everyone involved, and then when that's over amicably go separate ways. 

I think they tried to keep it as hush-hush as possible so as not to bring about a distraction, but that obviously hasn't worked out. Honestly, I think the smart thing to do at this point is turn the tables and get in front of the story. Announce that we're going to part ways at seasons end, and kick as much butt as we can until then. 

 

I don't think there is any animosity, or that Chuck is being made out to have failed. I think it's just philosophical differences between Grigson and Pagano that make it a difficult work environment, which doesn't do any service to anyone. It's a very different situation for sure, but if I had to bet, I'd go all in that this, or something very similar, is the case.

 

 

 

 

So the question then becomes who fills that void after this season? Pro Football Talk has really loved running with the Nick Saban angle as of late. Not to say that it doesn't make sense, because it does, to a certain degree. There will be talk of Harbaugh, Gruden, Cowher... But I doubt it.

 

The reports we're hearing these days all seem to suggest that Grigson is more involved than most. It's been reported that he is the one last season who made the call to scrap AQ Shipley at center and put Harrison out there starting. I can believe that. It's also been reported that Pep Hamilton was a Grigson hire.

 

It sounds like Grigson wants control over the roster, and the coach. I don't think any of the guys I mentioned in the list of potential candidates will be considered. If I had to guess, I'd say Grigson is looking for a "Yes" man who will report to him.

 

And I think Pep Hamilton is that guy.  Ultimately I think he will be promoted to head coach, so as to keep it from being a total house cleaning. Try to make the transition as smooth as possible by staying in-house, the same way we tried this before with jim caldwell after Dungy retired.

 

And in all honesty, I think the similarities between caldwell and Hamilton are striking. 

 

 

 

At the very least, it seems there is very little heat on Grigson where anything is concerned. I don't understand that, but what do I know? If Irsay had to pick who to keep and who to fire right this moment, I think, without hesitation, Pagano would be the one to go. 

 

Who knows how it all plays out. But if I had to bet, I'd say that by the first of March most of what I've surmised here will have come to fruition. 

 

You've just succinctly described my worst fears.  I hope that you're wrong but I fear that you're right. 

[John Waylon]

You've just succinctly described my worst fears.  I hope that you're wrong but I fear that you're right. 

 

[Archangel]

IMO the same issuies arised last year in not game planning for each team you play. The coaching staff looks at game film knows what the other team might be planning. Rex who loves to pressure and said what he was going to do why would our coaches. not game plan a short game of 3 to 4 yards per play to stop the rushing Buffalo bills take time of the clock. such as more pitch outs WR screens and short passes to the TE. I had hoped that was the game plan but when i watched and sat their and luck keep throwing 20 yard passing routes to ty while the ol gets it lunch handed to it and luck is on the ground, To me sounds totally insane. 

[SDakColts]

As lucky as we are to get the top QB in the right draft, we have been a year off for so many good coaches. If Harbaugh stayed an extra year at Stanford we could have had him. If the Jets put up with Rex for one more year we could have had him next year (I've LOVED him for years and he will actually have the QB he's never had with the Jets). Lost Arians. Something has to be done. Meyer won't come from Ohio State and I'm nervous about Saban but Saban basically said if you have a QB I'll coach your NFL team. He says he would still be in miami if they traded for Brees like he pushed for.

You would have to think that our QB situation makes this team a very attractive landing spot for top HC candidates. It is just this rumor mill circulating that our GM is constantly controlling more than he should. These rumors are the ones that will be scaring off some of the top candidates. In order to bring in a good HC candidate Grigson is going to have to allow them to select their staff, and have some say in personnel decisions. The only thing that kinda sucks about this whole situation is that Pagano is not being judged off of his staff. He is being judged on Grigson's staff that he wanted Chuck to have. Who knows perhaps if Pagano got his way and had Chud as his OC instead of Hamilton we may not have the struggles we have had opening games flat on Offense.

[RockThatBlue]

IMO the same issuies arised last year in not game planning for each team you play. The coaching staff looks at game film knows what the other team might be planning. Rex who loves to pressure and said what he was going to do why would our coaches. not game plan a short game of 3 to 4 yards per play to stop the rushing Buffalo bills take time of the clock. such as more pitch outs WR screens and short passes to the TE. I had hoped that was the game plan but when i watched and sat their and luck keep throwing 20 yard passing routes to ty while the ol gets it lunch handed to it and luck is on the ground, To me sounds totally insane.

The game planning by this staff more often than not is terrible. 4 years in and we still have issues starting out flat.

[General_Hux]

Speaking of screens...I can't recall...did Luck go back to them after he horribly overthrew that one to Gore in the first quarter? Because screens would have worked well yesterday if we had just stuck with it.

[John Waylon]

I can't shake the feeling that we're gonna have to blow this all up, and waste some of Luck's best years.

 

I see it coming later than sooner. 

 

Here is my theory on where we are headed:

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/40318-pagano-to-be-coaching-elsewhere-next-year-per-sources/?p=1168637

 

Be that the case, I say Grigson and Hamilton get at least 3 years to make a go of things before that plug would be pulled. (Unless things went horribly awry in years 1 and 2, but Luck is too good to let that happen.) Instead of a crash and burn and hope for a quick turnaround ala 2012, we could be potentially looking at a long descent before we get low enough to start clipping treetops and crash.

 

The more and more time goes on, the more and more I wonder how much of a problem Grigson is...

[aaron11]

The latter

that would be giving up on the season. its too late to bring in another system now, but if we see more games like this pagano will walk in the off season

 

im sure you think we should cut luck too...

[crazycolt1]

Good.....he brings very little to the table.

 

This guy was supposed to be some sort of defensive guru, but his defenses consistently suck *.

 

There are hundreds of guys we can bring in to do what Chuck Pagano does: stand on the sideline, watch Luck do his thing, and clap their hands. 

 

Get rid of the small timer in Pagano;  bring on a dynamic head coach who can win a Super Bowl, like Jon Gruden.

You serious? Gruden is not a good coach. He took a Dungy team and won a super bowl and every year after the Bucs got worse. Gruden is not liked by many players who played for him. I don't like any coach who lights up like a x-mas tree when the camera is stuck in his face.

[crazycolt1]

Wow. We lose to a very good team and now the world is ending? Fair weather fans at best.

[Dudley Smith]

I see it coming later than sooner. 

 

Here is my theory on where we are headed:

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/40318-pagano-to-be-coaching-elsewhere-next-year-per-sources/?p=1168637

 

Be that the case, I say Grigson and Hamilton get at least 3 years to make a go of things before that plug would be pulled. (Unless things went horribly awry in years 1 and 2, but Luck is too good to let that happen.) Instead of a crash and burn and hope for a quick turnaround ala 2012, we could be potentially looking at a long descent before we get low enough to start clipping treetops and crash.

 

The more and more time goes on, the more and more I wonder how much of a problem Grigson is...

 

If we really had to promote one of the coordinators, perhaps I am nuts but I'd rather have Manusky as HC than Hamilton. Manusky has at least been around awhile and I get the deer in the headlights sensation from Pep that would make me very uncomfortable with him as HC. I would very much hope that if Manusky was promoted we'd can Pep and bring in a more veteran offensive coach for Luck.

[John Waylon]

I get the deer in the headlights sensation from Pep that would make me very uncomfortable with him as HC.

 

It would essentially be jim caldwell all over again.

 

Lord help our Colts. 

[Surge89]

I can't shake the feeling that we're gonna have to blow this all up, and waste some of Luck's best years.

 

This...

 

All day everyday lol

 

It's gonna happen just a matter of time.  Once the division really starts to become average it will show how much closer to average we actually are and then changes will be made.  I have no doubt Luck will turn his bad play around and we end in a 12-4 season just to have the same issues next year and then it will be year 5 when the whole thing comes crashing down.  

[bleevit]

This is nonsense.  No matter what next year brings, right now I'm thinking Irsay, Grigson, and Pagano have just one thing on their mind:  Winning game two.  After Sunday's showing there will be plenty of work to do to have that happen.  The Bills were pumped up for Ryan's first game, the weather was bad and the Colts played poorly and got wacked.  A bunch of rookies might take a minute to get going.  Relax.  This media storm is a total waste of time and energy.  I don't think anyone is getting fired or a pay raise this week, so like I said, this is nonsense.

[bleevit]

One additional comment....Luck threw it all over the place Sunday and I hope I don't hear anyone calling for his job.

[bababooey]

Wow. We lose to a very good team and now the world is ending? Fair weather fans at best.

I dedicate hundreds of dollars and hours related to this team every year. Sorry that I get frustrated after we've had the same problems going back to the early 2000s.

[RockThatBlue]

First off, its becoming clear that this rumor has teeth to it. I dismissed it at first but there's way too much smoke for there to not be a fire. I really hope this does not become a huge distraction to the team, I just can't imagine how it couldn't be at least a mild distraction knowing your bosses could be on their way out next off season.

Thoughts on Pagano. He is a great guy and nobody would ever question his character but I think he's just an average coach who looks good because of his quarterback. His game planning skills and the staffs game planning skills leave a lot to be desired. We look complete and totally lost more often and not, and we come out flat way too many games each season (happened again yesterday) and we are not a very disciplined team. I would be ok with moving on from him next season as long as we find a good replacement.

Thoughts on Grigson. Personally I don't think he's nearly as bad as most say but I think he's average to above average most off seasons. He hits more oftan than not but when he misses it he misses very bad. I don't wanna go through a list but we all know the bad misses he's had that have hurt the team, but I think he's a solid GM and this past draft it looks like he did very well. I think if we can that the colts should keep him. I think this team has more of a Pagano problem than a Grigson problem.

Just my thoughts on everything...

[dgambill]

I wish the colts were too talented for this kind of game to happen, but they aren't.

Really??? I think we have a TON of talent...I'm not here to get down on the coaches to hard but I just don't think we have a championship caliber leader at the top. Do you honestly think if Bill Bellicheck coached this team he couldn't win a SB with it? I think a coach like John Harbaugh or Mike McCarthy etc could win it too with this team. We have play makers on both sides of the ball. A lock down corner....some really good pass rushers...all kinds of weapons on offense. I just feel we get outcoached/game planed/techniqued whatever you want to call it. I also don't think our guys have the same sense of urgency or hold themselves to the standard they need for greatness. Guys like Brady/Manning/Brees they make sure everyone is being held to that high standard...starting in practice right through the game....imo Luck sometimes could get in some peoples faces a bit too...he always takes responsibility but sometimes he needs to hold his receivers/lineman's feet to the fire....expect more from them too. Don't get me wrong...yesterday was bad for him too but I think you catch my drift. We have talent...lets hold our guys to that standard.

[TKnight24]

The great @1070Bruno makes a great point here about why it was dumb for Irsay not to extend Pagano this offseason: http://t.co/vX8MEiTzmm

— Brad Wells (@BradWellsNFL)

September 14, 2015

The great @1070Bruno makes a great point here about why it was dumb for Irsay not to extend Pagano this offseason: http://t.co/vX8MEiTzmm

[colts_100nascar17fan]

Need new coach for sure. Rex ryan would of been gold here. As for the Buffalo game itself, I can't believe so many of the Colts fans were shocked by the outcome/performance. Buffalo is a top defense and we struggle against those,besides not many experts predicted the Colts would win that game. They will likely not play well against new england and jets either. Line issues on both sides the ball again.

[Everyone]

The great @1070Bruno makes a great point here about why it was dumb for Irsay not to extend Pagano this offseason: http://t.co/vX8MEiTzmm

Please for the love of all that is sacred in this world, NEVER EVER EVER EVER SHARE ANYTHING FROM BRAD WELLS. He's the twitter equivalent of Skip Bayless...... 

[12dalegend]

First off, its becoming clear that this rumor has teeth to it. I dismissed it at first but there's way too much smoke for there to not be a fire. I really hope this does not become a huge distraction to the team, I just can't imagine how it couldn't be at least a mild distraction knowing your bosses could be on their way out next off season.

Thoughts on Pagano. He is a great guy and nobody would ever question his character but I think he's just an average coach who looks good because of his quarterback. His game planning skills and the staffs game planning skills leave a lot to be desired. We look complete and totally lost more often and not, and we come out flat way too many games each season (happened again yesterday) and we are not a very disciplined team. I would be ok with moving on from him next season as long as we find a good replacement.

Thoughts on Grigson. Personally I don't think he's nearly as bad as most say but I think he's average to above average most off seasons. He hits more oftan than not but when he misses it he misses very bad. I don't wanna go through a list but we all know the bad misses he's had that have hurt the team, but I think he's a solid GM and this past draft it looks like he did very well. I think if we can that the colts should keep him. I think this team has more of a Pagano problem than a Grigson problem.

Just my thoughts on everything...

Heʻs too soft we need a hard-nosed coach not "excuse the pun" a father-figure...I know some of these players have issues or problems but we are not drafting issues or problems ...we are drafting talent and character...these are what make a player productive and legendary...so if Pagano goes I hope we get Gruden or Cowher and hope they work well with Grigs 

[Patagonia Chris]

We might as well just establish it as a well known fact at this point. Personally, I'd be okay with moving on from Chuck Pagano at the end of the season. I do believe Andrew Luck covers up a bunch of warts, so I don't think every fault is on Chuck's shoulders. I just believe that there is no way Irsay will fire Grigson and that something has to change. The Colts would be able to land pretty much any head coach they want if there was a vacancy.

[Restored]

Honestly, I think it's more of a GM problem than a coaching problem. Although there is plenty to be said about how the team has gotten blown out at seemingly random points in the season. But here's why I think it's more of a Grigson problem than a Pagano one:

 

-Pagano has virtually no say in his coaching staff according to multiple reports. Word was that he wanted Chud to be the offensive coordinator and that didn't happen. The compromise appears to be that he is on staff as a special assistant to the head coach and likely consults with Pep more often than not on the offense.

 

-The Colts defense clearly is lacking in talent. Outside of Vontae Davis, the Colts defense is largely without playmakers. There isn't another player on that defense (outside of Mathis when healthy, whom Grigson didn't even draft) that puts fear in opposing offenses.

 

-Pagano also has no say in personnel decisions either from what reports have said. It's hard to make the type of meal you want when someone else is buying the groceries. Why in the world would this be any different with a new head coach? Would Grigson and Irsay give more autonomy to another coach than they gave Pagano? I doubt it.

 

-Grigson's drafting has been shoddy. Outside of 2012, he's missed on a large number of his draft picks. The Trent Richardson trade was a disaster. Werner was on special teams yesterday. And to top it off, every single free agent from 2013 is no longer on the team.

 

Ultimately, you can't expect Pagano or any other coaching staff to make a defense great when he can't pick the players he wants and the players he has are mediocre to flat out bad. If Pagano goes, Grigson should too.

[colts8718]

Pagano looks lost again  after not having his team ready  it's not hard to out coach him luck makes him look good.

[Jason_]

The great @1070Bruno makes a great point here about why it was dumb for Irsay not to extend Pagano this offseason: http://t.co/vX8MEiTzmm

— Brad Wells (@BradWellsNFL)

September 14, 2015

The great @1070Bruno makes a great point here about why it was dumb for Irsay not to extend Pagano this offseason: http://t.co/vX8MEiTzmm

 

He needs a better editor:

 

 

The local whisper became a national roar Sunday, and it only gained volume after the Colts offered up a pathetic performance in losing their regular-season opener 27-14 in Baltimore.

 

[Dudley Smith]

I'm buying, folks. 100%

 

I think it's mutual. I think Grigson wants someone new, and I think Chuck is finding it difficult to work under Grigson. If I had to guess, I'd say the Dorsett pick was the straw the broke the camel's back. Pagano likely wanted help for the defense, not a 4th string WR. Since it was too late to part ways at that point, they decided to simply ride the season out, and win as much as possible since that benefits everyone involved, and then when that's over amicably go separate ways. 

I think they tried to keep it as hush-hush as possible so as not to bring about a distraction, but that obviously hasn't worked out. Honestly, I think the smart thing to do at this point is turn the tables and get in front of the story. Announce that we're going to part ways at seasons end, and kick as much butt as we can until then. 

 

I don't think there is any animosity, or that Chuck is being made out to have failed. I think it's just philosophical differences between Grigson and Pagano that make it a difficult work environment, which doesn't do any service to anyone. It's a very different situation for sure, but if I had to bet, I'd go all in that this, or something very similar, is the case.

 

 

 

 

So the question then becomes who fills that void after this season? Pro Football Talk has really loved running with the Nick Saban angle as of late. Not to say that it doesn't make sense, because it does, to a certain degree. There will be talk of Harbaugh, Gruden, Cowher... But I doubt it.

 

The reports we're hearing these days all seem to suggest that Grigson is more involved than most. It's been reported that he is the one last season who made the call to scrap AQ Shipley at center and put Harrison out there starting. I can believe that. It's also been reported that Pep Hamilton was a Grigson hire.

 

It sounds like Grigson wants control over the roster, and the coach. I don't think any of the guys I mentioned in the list of potential candidates will be considered. If I had to guess, I'd say Grigson is looking for a "Yes" man who will report to him.

 

And I think Pep Hamilton is that guy.  Ultimately I think he will be promoted to head coach, so as to keep it from being a total house cleaning. Try to make the transition as smooth as possible by staying in-house, the same way we tried this before with jim caldwell after Dungy retired.

 

And in all honesty, I think the similarities between caldwell and Hamilton are striking. 

 

 

 

At the very least, it seems there is very little heat on Grigson where anything is concerned. I don't understand that, but what do I know? If Irsay had to pick who to keep and who to fire right this moment, I think, without hesitation, Pagano would be the one to go. 

 

Who knows how it all plays out. But if I had to bet, I'd say that by the first of March most of what I've surmised here will have come to fruition. 

 

Like I said in the other thread, I really hope you're wrong about this. I have to believe that Irsay would step in if Grigson tried to promote Pep to HC. But....it is one of those things that is so terrible I could almost see it happening and it scares the * out of me. I mean the guy is probably the least qualified coach we have right now. I lay most of the blame for the slow-start offense right at Pep's feet (not Pagano's) as I think he has been in over his head from Day 1 with play-design and playcalling. He has improved, but not by as much as he should have after two full seasons, and is still mediocre at best. Yesterday was the latest in a long list of pathetic offensive playcalling/coaching since 2013 and another slow start that really put a huge amount of pressure on our average defense. And if it is really true (not convinced it is) that Luck is doing an audible into a lot of these plays, then Pep needs to actually coach him to make the correct call at the LOS, but I have zero confidence he will after having seen how his offense operates the last few years.

 

Irsay has to see the same thing and see the guy is not cut out to be an offensive coordinator, let alone a head coach in the NFL. If Grigson is really power hungry enough to make Pep Hamilton our head coach simply because he wants control (which I hope isn't the case in the first place), Irsay has to have the sense to stop him. Right?

[TKnight24]

Please for the love of all that is sacred in this world, NEVER EVER EVER EVER SHARE ANYTHING FROM BRAD WELLS. He's the twitter equivalent of Skip Bayless......

I'm just the messenger

[crazycolt1]

Pagano looks lost again  after not having his team ready  it's not hard to out coach him luck makes him look good.

Ready? Ask Aaron Rogers if the Bills defense is any good and that was without Ryan as head coach. Pagano has zero to do with penalties and turnovers. And that in itself is why the Colts lost to the Bills. The Bills first game at home with a new coach was a buss saw. The Colts couldn't have a worse team to face opening the season with. It also takes a whole team effort, not just the QB.

[Dustin]

Ready? Ask Aaron Rogers if the Bills defense is any good and that was without Ryan as head coach. Pagano has zero to do with penalties and turnovers. And that in itself is why the Colts lost to the Bills. The Bills first game at home with a new coach was a buss saw. The Colts couldn't have a worse team to face opening the season with. It also takes a whole team effort, not just the QB.

 

Man, it's crazy to even think we need a HC considering they never have anything to do with anything. 

[John Waylon]

Like I said in the other thread, I really hope you're wrong about this. I have to believe that Irsay would step in if Grigson tried to promote Pep to HC. But....it is one of those things that is so terrible I could almost see it happening and it scares the * out of me. I mean the guy is probably the least qualified coach we have right now. I lay most of the blame for the slow-start offense right at Pep's feet (not Pagano's) as I think he has been in over his head from Day 1 with play-design and playcalling. He has improved, but not by as much as he should have after two full seasons, and is still mediocre at best. Yesterday was the latest in a long list of pathetic offensive playcalling/coaching since 2013 and another slow start that really put a huge amount of pressure on our average defense. And if it is really true (not convinced it is) that Luck is doing an audible into a lot of these plays, then Pep needs to actually coach him to make the correct call at the LOS, but I have zero confidence he will after having seen how his offense operates the last few years.

 

Irsay has to see the same thing and see the guy is not cut out to be an offensive coordinator, let alone a head coach in the NFL. If Grigson is really power hungry enough to make Pep Hamilton our head coach simply because he wants control (which I hope isn't the case in the first place), Irsay has to have the sense to stop him. Right?

 

I just haven't gotten the sense that there has been enough heat on Pep for the stuff he does. He's still doing the same bad things yesterday that he was doing in his first year. 

 

In my opinion, out of everyone on our team, I think Grigson should have more heat than anyone right now. Pagano and the coaching staffs have been handicapped by his personnel decisions. 

And I'm not saying Grigson is awful, because he's not. But he's inconsistent at best. For every TY Hilton he's brought on, there is a LaRon Landry and RJF to counter. It's really been feast or famine where Grigson is concerned. He's either adding solid, solid contributions, or he's whiffing really, really badly. I'm looking at you here, Werner. 

 

But Irsay seems content to stick to Grigson, and the heat just doesn't seem to be on him. So if I had to guess, I'd say Irsay will strongly consider anything he says. 

[Jackie Daytona]

Need new coach for sure. Rex ryan would of been gold here. As for the Buffalo game itself, I can't believe so many of the Colts fans were shocked by the outcome/performance. Buffalo is a top defense and we struggle against those,besides not many experts predicted the Colts would win that game. They will likely not play well against new england and jets either. Line issues on both sides the ball again.

The Oline is still up for some debate, but I believe the DL showed a lot of promise in the Buff Game

[BrickHead]

Ready? Ask Aaron Rogers if the Bills defense is any good and that was without Ryan as head coach. Pagano has zero to do with penalties and turnovers. And that in itself is why the Colts lost to the Bills. The Bills first game at home with a new coach was a buss saw. The Colts couldn't have a worse team to face opening the season with. It also takes a whole team effort, not just the QB.

 

Re-watch the 1st half, and when you think ... "This would be a good place for a run play"

 

Pep would call a pass play. Over, and over, and over.........

 

The play calling never kept the Bills honest. They pinned their ears back and went after Luck the entire first half.

Edited September 14, 2015 by 21isSuperman

[ColtsFan1976]

If Pagano and Grigson do not come together in some way this is going to be a long season.  Like I heard on local sports radio, Irsay should tell the media both of them are being evaluated to come back next year.  Both are at fault for how this season goes.  Especially if it is bad.

 

I heard on national sports radio that Luck might be a good fit for the Arizona Cardinals once Palmer retires in a year or two.  I said this in a previous post I started.  Luck has leverage here.  No extension and one year left on his contract.  If Irsay and the rest keep this up Luck has the ability to move on.

[csmopar]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/09/indianapolis-colts-chuck-pagano-ryan-grigson-andrew-luck

USA today claiming that infighting is why the Colts lost Sunday....thoughts

[Bravo]

This has been going around for a long time! Pagano and Grigson has already discussed it! Media is blowing it up! They look for these type of stories.

It's going to happen if the Colts continue to lose. If the Colts win it will calm down.

I agree they are wasting Andrew Lucks Talent but in different ways than this article says.

[csmopar]

This has been going around for a long time! Pagano and Grigson has already discussed it! Media is blowing it up! They look for these type of stories.

It's going to happen if the Colts continue to lose. If the Colts win it will calm down.

I agree they are wasting Andrew Lucks Talent but in different ways than this article says.

Yeah I hate the media...

[JimJaime]

Bravo I agree, media looking for juicy non stories.. That said, the colts lost because they got man handled on both sides of the ball.

[Patagonia Chris]

Interesting. I noticed the article confirmed my speculation from earlier that Pagano doesn't want Pep as his OC.

[JColts72]

I would think a high percantage of Colts fans don't want him as OC.