Pagano-Grigson Rift/Pagano to be coaching elsewhere next year [Mega-merge]

PuntersArePeopleToo · September 14, 2015

The only thing I want answered right now (and wont get a definitive answer from a credible source) is why did we come out and ran 7 times in our first 33 plays considering we were not even down 17-0 until inside a minute of the 2nd Quarter. Now the answer may be seem more obvious once games are available on Game Plan where I can go back and watch but right now Im confused

Well only thing i can think of is because Gore was hurt. Other than that our running was our best option

NewColtsFan · September 14, 2015

I'm worried about it becoming a distraction for the team. The players would deny it is a distraction, but these rumors are floating around almost weekly. How couldn't it at the very least be a mild distraction?

If we win, it will barely be on our radar. The only way it's a big deal is if we're struggling. And if we're struggling, it's not clear that Irsay will let Pagano finish out the year.

But I'm talking much further down the road.... I'm not talking about the next few weeks.....

NewColtsFan · September 14, 2015

I don't get why the colts say we want to run the ball but we are always so quick to basically scrapping it.

That's a multi-million dollar question my young Jedi Warrior!

Very wise in the matters of football. How does this happen as often as it does??

ColtRider · September 14, 2015

Always seems to be an excuse why we don't live up to expectations:
- Dungy retires
- Caldwell takes over
- Peyton gets hurt...suck for Luck
- Chuck gets hired but gets diagnosed at the beginning of the season Arians takes the reigns
- Chuck comes back...growing pains

Ad-nauseam

When exactly are they expected to get their collective @$#& together and actually have a good, drama/disaster free season?

When everyone is on the same darn page of just playing flawless fundamental football.

Gavin · September 14, 2015

Well only thing i can think of is because Gore was hurt. Other than that our running was our best option

That very well could be, With Ballard out, Gore dinged up and then Robinson dinged up. Though we still had Varga

RockThatBlue · September 14, 2015

That's a multi-million dollar question my young Jedi Warrior!
Very wise in the matters of football. How does this happen as often as it does??

Every off season pep and pagano talk about wanting a power run game. How can we have a power run game if we stop running the ball at the most random of times? Quite baffling.

Defjamz26 · September 14, 2015

Before I put my 2 cents in let me also say that the strength and conditioning coach should go. As I looked at some of the players before kickoff I noticed that no one seems to be growing. Holmes looks incredibly thin, and Moncrief doesn't look like he hit the weight room at all.

But to address the main topic, something will give if the Colts don't make it to the Super Bowl. It's only one game but we see the problem with the Colts: the team isn't significantly improving. It's the same issue each year. I don't see a different team when I watch the Colts. I see different variations of the same team.

Slow starting offense that plays with no fire, soft D (although they played relatively well today) with only 1-2 marquee players, a lethargic return team that you can always count on for one mishap, and a team shooting itself in the foot with ill timed turnovers and penalties.

It's not even that we lose because you can't win em all, it's that we keep losing for the same reasons and it's how we lose.

A coaching change seems eminent, but idk how I feel about the whole situation, including the GM. Who do you put the blame on when everyone seems to have played a part?

ColtRider · September 14, 2015

What's happening in Indy is what happened in Dallas last year.

Jason Garrett had to win or else and he won.   12-4 last year.   So, Irsay is trying the same approach this year.

Where the two scenarios differ is that Dallas was coming off 3 straight 8-8 seasons, IIRC.

But Pagano is coming off three straight 11-5 seasons.   Even if you give Arians credit for the first year, Pagano did very well in years two and three.

And yet, Irsay wants to see more.    Interesting that Grigson's job doesn't appear to be threatened despite his mistakes......

I hope things don't spin out of control this year.... but I expect an 11-5 or 12-4 year.

Neither do I, NCF! Hope the team doesn't get caught up with whirlwind stories. Focus. On football. Nothing else.

indy1888 · September 14, 2015

The only thing I want answered right now (and wont get a definitive answer from a credible source) is why did we come out and ran 7 times in our first 33 plays considering we were not even down 17-0 until inside a minute of the 2nd Quarter. Now the answer may be seem more obvious once games are available on Game Plan where I can go back and watch but right now Im confused

They think it's a good idea to have Gore on a "pitch count". That way when there sitting home for the playoffs or going on the road all playoffs long and getting it handed to em in Foxboro, he will be "fresh". Maybe that was part of it, could have ran with the backups though. Still, i don't understand limiting one of your main offseason pickups once the regular season starts. If you have to protect him then maybe that was not a wise investment.

PuntersArePeopleToo · September 14, 2015

That very well could be, With Ballard out, Gore dinged up and then Robinson dinged up. Though we still had Varga

Ya but remember first game undrafted guy

ColtRider · September 14, 2015

It was more than a lack of player focus! It was poor game planning and worse play calling. And if it had only been this game, or even if we had actually made this a competitive game than it would not be that big of deal ... but this carries over from previous seasons ... we never (or very rarely) look prepared and are frequently out coached, and it was painfully obvious that was the situation today as well.

I agree they should not be fired today/tomorrow that wouldn't be beneficial ... but if it becomes obvious by week 10-12ish we are going to just squeak into the playoffs (or miss them all together) to likely be one and done ... Let the heads start rolling.

Personally I don't think Pagano and most of or coaching staff have the ability to coach with the "big boys" on a consistent basis.

I get what you're driving at, esmort. Really, I do. This is only Pagano's 3rd year of actual coaching time. He's gone 11-5 priors. Divisional win. AFCCG loss. I'm gonna give him a little more time including this year. If it fails, I'm afraid he does as well. However, looking at today's game by taking away those crucial penalties and turnovers, it's a different game and in all likelihood, a win. To me, that's on the players. If it continues ad nauseam the next several weeks or in the playoffs, yeah it's the coaching that gets dumped.

NewColtsFan · September 14, 2015

They think it's a good idea to have Gore on a "pitch count". That way when there sitting home for the playoffs or going on the road all playoffs long and getting it handed to em in Foxboro, he will be "fresh". Maybe that was part of it, could have ran with the backups though. Still, i don't understand limiting one of your main offseason pickups once the regular season starts. If you have to protect him then maybe that was not a wise investment.

I don't our lack of using Gore today was due to "pitch count"....

I've read he sat as much as he did was due to...... cramps in his calves....

Go figure..........

ColtRider · September 14, 2015

Before I put my 2 cents in let me also say that the strength and conditioning coach should go. As I looked at some of the players before kickoff I noticed that no one seems to be growing. Holmes looks incredibly thin, and Moncrief doesn't look like he hit the weight room at all.
But to address the main topic, something will give if the Colts don't make it to the Super Bowl. It's only one game but we see the problem with the Colts: the team isn't significantly improving. It's the same issue each year. I don't see a different team when I watch the Colts. I see different variations of the same team.
Slow starting offense that plays with no fire, soft D (although they played relatively well today) with only 1-2 marquee players, a lethargic return team that you can always count on for one mishap, and a team shooting itself in the foot with ill timed turnovers and penalties.
It's not even that we lose because you can't win em all, it's that we keep losing for the same reasons and it's how we lose.
A coaching change seems eminent, but idk how I feel about the whole situation, including the GM. Who do you put the blame on when everyone seems to have played a part?

That's the $64,000 dollar question Dj26. Ultimately, yeah, it's the coaching. Just as I was eluding to esmort, I'm gonna give it some more time before throwing knives and daggers. I really think today's loss were attributable to mental mistakes. That's just me. If this continues, then yeah, "Houston, we have a problem!", especially with several more games and onward. If the media buzz is correct, and Irsay is serious about changing venue, then so be it.

indy1888 · September 14, 2015

I don't our lack of using Gore today was due to "pitch count"....

I've read he sat as much as he did was due to...... cramps in his calves....

Go figure..........

I could be wrong, but i didn't think that happened until the 2nd half. They abandoned the run in the first qtr.

TYtheGHOST · September 14, 2015

I hope this isn't a distraction for the team.

GoColts8818 · September 14, 2015

I could be wrong, but i didn't think that happened until the 2nd half. They abandoned the run in the first qtr.

heck it didn't even last that long they gave up on it after the first drive. They went back to it after two or three quick drives of all passes and it was clear as day it was going to be a run and it got stuffed.

weslo1812 · September 14, 2015

I don't buy it.
What is Irsay supposed to say? That Pagano and Grigson are having issues and it's affecting the team? He's trying to keep the image of the horse shoe.

Irsay stated multiple times pretty emphatically it seems that it was false and not true at all. Now if he'd just said that's not at all and just left it after that and decided to say no more. Then maybe we could say it's just GM speak. But he multiple times outright denied and said it's plainly not true. And it sounds like he personally wanted to get this out too. I don't think he'd have been near as emphatic and serious as he seemed to be about it if he was just saying it to say the right thing, or GM speak as some say. Ultamatley none of know. But I think this is ultamatley all just a conspiracy that got started by some reporter who let this crap out. And now people have latched onto it.

SDakColts · September 14, 2015

Also, this is very interesting: La Canfora says that Pep Hamilton was Grigson's hire. Means Grigson has control over staff too. #Colts
— Josh Wilson (@JoshWilsonSB)
September 13, 2015

Also, this is very interesting: La Canfora says that Pep Hamilton was Grigson's hire. Means Grigson has control over staff too. #Colts

I wonder if this is the festering issue that Pagano is probably the most bothered by. Almost every coach has complete control of his staff, and not being able to choose your own OC probably don't sit too well with him. I wonder if that is why Chuck brought in Chud as Assistant Head Coach trying to get him in the building as he is really his choice for OC. I also wonder if Chuck doesn't have absolute faith in Pep and that is why Chud is used as Pagano's second set of eyes in the offensive meetings as Chuck can't be both places at once. However, if Pagano is enough of a push over in order to let the GM dictate who he will and won't have on his coaching staff and the GM constantly oversteps his boundaries it might be best to put this dumpster fire out and clean shop. If we do decide to move on from Pagano and not Grigs I don't know too many top HC candidates that would want to come into a situation where a GM dictates all personnel and assistant coaching decisions. Therefore if Pagano goes I think that it is more logical to fire both the GM and the HC.

RockThatBlue · September 14, 2015

heck it didn't even last that long they gave up on it after the first drive. They went back to it after two or three quick drives of all passes and it was clear as day it was going to be a run and it got stuffed.

Its truly mind boggling. When we are down 7-0 does pep panic and elect to stop running the ball? I just don't get it

GoColts8818 · September 14, 2015

Its truly mind boggling. When we are down 7-0 does pep panic and elect to stop running the ball? I just don't get it

it was just odd they went away from it before they even got down. I understand you are keeping Gore on a pitch count but if aren't going to use him why sign him in the first place?

RockThatBlue · September 14, 2015

it was just odd they went away from it before they even got down. I understand you are keeping Gore on a pitch count but if aren't going to use him why sign him in the first place?

Yup. Even more crazy since Pep always talks about wanting a power run game. How the hell can we have a power run game if you give up on it after a single drive? I haven't hated on Pep as much as others have but he's done this several times and its just stupid.

ColtRider · September 14, 2015

I wonder if this is the festering issue that Pagano is probably the most bothered by. Almost every coach has complete control of his staff, and not being able to choose your own OC probably don't sit too well with him. I wonder if that is why Chuck brought in Chud as Assistant Head Coach trying to get him in the building as he is really his choice for OC. I also wonder if Chuck doesn't have absolute faith in Pep and that is why Chud is used as Pagano's second set of eyes in the offensive meetings as Chuck can't be both places at once. However, if Pagano is enough of a push over in order to let the GM dictate who he will and won't have on his coaching staff and the GM constantly oversteps his boundaries it might be best to put this dumpster fire out and clean shop. If we do decide to move on from Pagano and not Grigs I don't know too many top HC candidates that would want to come into a situation where a GM dictates all personnel and assistant coaching decisions. Therefore if Pagano goes I think that it is more logical to fire both the GM and the HC.

Interesting theoretical. I can tell you this (as can anyone with NFL salt), if the season does go south for whatever reason, everyone's going to see changes. You can just about bank on that. How many? Who knows.

I'm just not ready to throw the towel in yet because of today's loss.

NewColtsFan · September 14, 2015

I could be wrong, but i didn't think that happened until the 2nd half. They abandoned the run in the first qtr.

No, you're right. I was only addressing the Gore issue.

Not the abandoning the run way too early issue. Totally separate.

Sorry for the confusion.

SDakColts · September 14, 2015

Interesting theoretical. I can tell you this (as can anyone with NFL salt), if the season does go south for whatever reason, everyone's going to see changes. You can just about bank on that. How many? Who knows.
I'm just not ready to throw the towel in yet because of today's loss.

Thanks, I know a lot of it is personal theories, but it does make sense to me. I agree if the season does go south there will be changes brought to you courtesy of Mr. Irsay. I truly think his expectations are quite high this year, and he is expecting them to be met.

I am also in the same boat as you I don't want to throw the towel in just yet due to one loss to a talented Bills team. However, if this dumpster fire between Grigs and Pagano (if it does exist) needs to be put to rest, or Mr. Irsay needs to hand both of them their walking papers IMO. This is one less distraction this teams needs.

Nobody · September 14, 2015

I can't shake the feeling that we're gonna have to blow this all up, and waste some of Luck's best years.

Defjamz26 · September 14, 2015

That's the $64,000 dollar question Dj26. Ultimately, yeah, it's the coaching. Just as I was eluding to esmort, I'm gonna give it some more time before throwing knives and daggers. I really think today's loss were attributable to mental mistakes. That's just me. If this continues, then yeah, "Houston, we have a problem!", especially with several more games and onward. If the media buzz is correct, and Irsay is serious about changing venue, then so be it.

Yeah I think Irsay expects a Super Bowl. This team doesn't look Super Bowl ready. Last week I though this was probably an 11-5 team again. We played like a 9-7 team yesterday though.

Grigson hasn't exactly stocked the cupboard , but Pagano leaves a lot to be desired.

Nadine · September 14, 2015

It bothers me that Kravitz is essentially saying......the media started this rumor mill and because we will continue to feed this rumor you should act on the rumor now......because we have sources

It’s turning into an ugly mess, a clown show, and no matter how many times Irsay insists there’s nothing afoot, the more reporters will cling to their sources, all of whom have told us roughly the same thing.

mrfuddubby · September 14, 2015

That had to be the most embarrassing first half of football since the AFC Championship Game?! 5 penalties for almost 70 yards? Luck throwing the ball only to Hilton? Darius Butler getting beat constantly? The O-Line looked defeated and Gore looking like he had second thoughts about his, Luck is a God statement? The team looked like 2014, not a team ready to battle for a SB? Not a team that supposedly had gotten better in 2015? I'm SO tired of seeing the Colts play soft?! I'm tired of the stigma of being SOFT! Teams run on us year after year?! Teams don't respect us and in my opinion, our coaching staff is WEAK! I think Pep Hamilton is in over his head, I think Pagano is too nice of a guy, I think that Grigson, albeit has improved our team form 2-14, is feeling his self. This is crazy! Then I see the post game interviews and no one seemed *? Where's the hunger? Where's the BEAST that Pagano talks about? Why can't the O-Line see that they're the butt of all jokes Colts? They can't block, they don't communicate well with picking up defensive schemes? We have corners that can't stay healthy, especially when we need them, nor can they cover anyone?! That game yesterday was suppose to be our coming out party, showing the fans and NFL that the Colts were deserving of the hype! They played like something was going on internally? I don't know the beef between Pagano and Grigson but Irsay needs to make some changes before it gets out of hand because that team yesterday wasn't a SB caliber team, at all!!!!! I've been a loyal fan since the Mayflower truck pulled up and I've been through the heartache of the Peyton era but I'm speaking to you Irsay! If you don't get some toughness and tenacity, if you don't sure up that O-Line and get a coach who is going to kick butt(go get Bill Cowher), if you don't change the perception of the way teams think and play us. There won't be another SB coming to Indy and Luck will be California dreaming?!

JColts72 · September 14, 2015

Pagano has no "fire and passion"...it's just not him...and that filters down to the team.

Chuck is Caldwell 2 with emotions and playmaking, and Grigs is Matt Millen 2.

SOMDColtsfan · September 14, 2015

I don't get why the colts say we want to run the ball but we are always so quick to basically scrapping it.

Agree. And like to add, why do we enter every offseason saying/knowing "we need to run the ball more and better" but never seem to do so whether they make coaching or personnel changes?

The Fish · September 14, 2015

I've had no doubts that either Pagano and to a lesser extent Grigs (who really is just as much the issue for my dollar) were in trouble going into this year- the contract situation doesn't just say it, it screams it. Considering yesterday was a replay of every bad defeat this squad has suffered in the last 4 years it's safe to say that there are issues. Whether it's overall talent, scheme, preparation or whatever other magic voodoo coaches/Front Office types do, it's pretty obvious that the job isn't getting done.

Pagano won't get fired today or even before the end of the season, but I don't think you can blame the media for noticing this- most of us lowly fans notice it..

SilentHill · September 14, 2015

they should let Pagano go. Bring back Jim Harbaugh, Jon Gruden, or someone who knows how to game plan.

General_Hux · September 14, 2015

To my eyes it looked like they treated yesterday like a 5th preseason game. The WR's and TE's looked disinterested in working to get separation, they had their starting RB, one of their most important offseason aquisitions, on a "pitch count", Luck wasn't sharp at all...I could go on. Putting Dorsett in to field punts after Whalen had done a fine job up to that point...are we still auditioning players in different spots even though we had 4 preseason games to figure it out?

It didn't even appear that the coaching staff game planned for the Bills. We always hear this staff say if we play "Colts Football" (whatever that means), we can win any game. They need to stop being so concerned with forcing their idea of what this teams identity should be and start planning for each individual opponent, focused on winning that one game. The hubris shown by Pagano and Pep, made evident in their game planning blunders, is staggering.

I say Pagano finishes out the season, but if they blow it big time against the Patriots at home on Sunday Night Football, Pagano and the rest of the coaching staff (and probably Grigson as well) are dead men walking.

General_Hux · September 14, 2015

they should let Pagano go. Bring back Jim Harbaugh, Jon Gruden, or someone who knows how to game plan.

Jim Harbaugh is a Michigan Man now, hoping to become Bo Schembechler 2.0. NFL or not, coming down from that charge would feel like a demotion to him I'd imagine.

John Waylon · September 14, 2015

I'm buying, folks. 100%

I think it's mutual. I think Grigson wants someone new, and I think Chuck is finding it difficult to work under Grigson. If I had to guess, I'd say the Dorsett pick was the straw the broke the camel's back. Pagano likely wanted help for the defense, not a 4th string WR. Since it was too late to part ways at that point, they decided to simply ride the season out, and win as much as possible since that benefits everyone involved, and then when that's over amicably go separate ways.

I think they tried to keep it as hush-hush as possible so as not to bring about a distraction, but that obviously hasn't worked out. Honestly, I think the smart thing to do at this point is turn the tables and get in front of the story. Announce that we're going to part ways at seasons end, and kick as much butt as we can until then.

I don't think there is any animosity, or that Chuck is being made out to have failed. I think it's just philosophical differences between Grigson and Pagano that make it a difficult work environment, which doesn't do any service to anyone. It's a very different situation for sure, but if I had to bet, I'd go all in that this, or something very similar, is the case.

So the question then becomes who fills that void after this season? Pro Football Talk has really loved running with the Nick Saban angle as of late. Not to say that it doesn't make sense, because it does, to a certain degree. There will be talk of Harbaugh, Gruden, Cowher... But I doubt it.

The reports we're hearing these days all seem to suggest that Grigson is more involved than most. It's been reported that he is the one last season who made the call to scrap AQ Shipley at center and put Harrison out there starting. I can believe that. It's also been reported that Pep Hamilton was a Grigson hire.

It sounds like Grigson wants control over the roster, and the coach. I don't think any of the guys I mentioned in the list of potential candidates will be considered. If I had to guess, I'd say Grigson is looking for a "Yes" man who will report to him.

And I think Pep Hamilton is that guy. Ultimately I think he will be promoted to head coach, so as to keep it from being a total house cleaning. Try to make the transition as smooth as possible by staying in-house, the same way we tried this before with jim caldwell after Dungy retired.

And in all honesty, I think the similarities between caldwell and Hamilton are striking.

At the very least, it seems there is very little heat on Grigson where anything is concerned. I don't understand that, but what do I know? If Irsay had to pick who to keep and who to fire right this moment, I think, without hesitation, Pagano would be the one to go.

Who knows how it all plays out. But if I had to bet, I'd say that by the first of March most of what I've surmised here will have come to fruition.

bababooey · September 14, 2015

As lucky as we are to get the top QB in the right draft, we have been a year off for so many good coaches. If Harbaugh stayed an extra year at Stanford we could have had him. If the Jets put up with Rex for one more year we could have had him next year (I've LOVED him for years and he will actually have the QB he's never had with the Jets). Lost Arians. Something has to be done. Meyer won't come from Ohio State and I'm nervous about Saban but Saban basically said if you have a QB I'll coach your NFL team. He says he would still be in miami if they traded for Brees like he pushed for.

Edited September 14, 2015 by 21isSuperman

throwing BBZ · September 14, 2015

His Ravens defenses seemed to play with plenty of fire and passion. What happened when he got here?

lmao ! He coached the Raven D for one season and he inherited Ray Lewis, Suggs, Ngata, and Ed Reed.

I am sure his pre-game speeches were the reason....

throwing BBZ · September 14, 2015

Would Chuck survive us being 0-3???

General_Hux · September 14, 2015

Would Chuck survive us being 0-3???

If we go into the New England game with a losing record and get blown out by them at home in front of the national audience on Sunday night, I think he's fired Monday morning.

I think more is riding on the outcome of that particular game than people are willing to admit.

NewColtsFan · September 14, 2015

Pagano has EARNED this year to show he's either the man for the job or not.

The story is a media generated story demanding action -- NOW!!

Sorry, but that's what the modern media does these days. No more time to let things unfold as they should.

Something must happen, and it must happen NOW!!

Sorry, Bob. Chill and watch the year play out like the rest of us.........

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Pagano-Grigson Rift/Pagano to be coaching elsewhere next year [Mega-merge]

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