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29 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Had a bad game in the playoffs against KC too.  Not that it cost us the game at all, but he wasn't good. 

 

I just don't see a connection between a game eight months ago and a game yesterday. 

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10 minutes ago, Exodus said:

How in the world have y'all managed a six page thread over a kicker? 

Because he's been such a solid on our team for a long time.  We all saw what we saw yesterday, but for me personally it's kind of a tug-o-war in my thought process....is he done or was it a bad day?  :dunno:

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Adam has said more than once he'll only play until he feels like he can't help a team win. He's not playing for anything, he doesn't have an ego, and he'd be on another team RIGHT NOW if the Colts didn't re-sign him. This whole thread is silly.

Yes, he has said that. 

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Did yesterday suck? Absolutely, but I'm quite pleased with how the team played overall. We have a VERY tough schedule this year, so to play like we did yesterday IN LA is more than I ever could have hoped for. Go Colts

 

Agree. There was a lot of good in yesterday's game.

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I have coached over a hundred and ten teams in a combination of Men's and Women's Softball, Youth Baseball, and Youth Basketball.  My teams won over 1100 games, and I lost over 500.  I never had a player who didn't make a mistake.  No one player ever loses a game.   Teams win or lose together

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I love how sports can make us completely irrational. One epic performance and we love a guy and we want to name our dog or firstborn after him and with one crappy performance we want to put the player in a nursing home. In situations like this I always think about the mob in the Adam Sandler classic The Waterboy . One second they are cherring for him and the next they want to cut his bleeping head off. Come on everyone let's at least wait until after week 2 before storming the Colts complex with pitchforks and torches!

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He hasn't been doing well since last year. He's still serviceable but looks like it's time to find a replacement for him.

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1 hour ago, Exodus said:

How in the world have y'all managed a six page thread over a kicker? The Colts allowed the chargers to convert 7-11 third downs, including multiple third and longs.

 

Our defense couldn't contain a backup running back.

 

Eric Ebron couldn't make a TD grab he made all of last season.

 

Our secondary continues to look like swiss cheese playing a Tampa-2.

 

Did the GOAT have an awful game yesterday? Yes, absolutely, and I don't think anyone is denying that. You're insane if you think we solely lost the game yesterday on his leg.

 

Adam has said more than once he'll only play until he feels like he can't help a team win. He's not playing for anything, he doesn't have an ego, and he'd be on another team RIGHT NOW if the Colts didn't re-sign him. This whole thread is silly.

 

Did yesterday suck? Absolutely, but I'm quite pleased with how the team played overall. We have a VERY tough schedule this year, so to play like we did yesterday IN LA is more than I ever could have hoped for. Go Colts

 

 

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3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

'Yeah, Vinny was awful for us today. As a coach, I have to be able to trust that our kicker is going to do his job when I call his number. I'm losing that trust after today. He really let us down, and I think we're going to open up the competition at his spot. He's a HOFer, but we can't let him cost us games if he's not able to perform anymore. And that's fine, he's 46, it might just be Father Time catching up with him. He's the GOAT, but we need to make sure our kicker can come through when we send him out there.' 

 

Is that what Reich was supposed to say? Is there any chance those words would ever come out of his mouth, privately or publicly? I think not...

 

He said the right thing. Doesn't mean the team won't be closely monitoring the situation with AV. 

 

I think there’s plenty of room in between.  I don’t think he should’ve said what you said. But he also shouldn’t have said what he said.

 

I think the right comment would’ve been something like “Adam is the best kicker in NFL history.  And he’s had more game-winning kicks than anybody.  But the last couple games have been struggles for him and I certainly hope that he can get back to form and be the kicker that the team needs to win games and championships.”

 

There’s no need to act like there’s nothing wrong.  There’s something wrong when an NFL kicker misses 29 yard kicks and PATs.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

I think there’s plenty of room in between.  I don’t think he should’ve said what you said. But he also shouldn’t have said what he said.

 

I think the right comment would’ve been something like “Adam is the best kicker in NFL history.  And he’s had more game-winning kicks than anybody.  But the last couple games have been struggles for him and I certainly hope that he can get back to form and be the kicker that the team needs to win games and championships.”

 

There’s no need to act like there’s nothing wrong.  There’s something wrong when an NFL kicker misses 29 yard kicks and PATs.

 

I was playing the extreme, of course. But more than enough people have declared that AV is done and the Colts should give him a Viking funeral before they let him kick again.

 

But end of the day, Reich is going to stick to the coachspeak. He's not going to call AV out publicly, no matter how much the fans want him to. Even what you suggested isn't going to happen. He's going to publicly support AV until a change is made.

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12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I was playing the extreme, of course. But more than enough people have declared that AV is done and the Colts should give him a Viking funeral before they let him kick again.

 

But end of the day, Reich is going to stick to the coachspeak. He's not going to call AV out publicly, no matter how much the fans want him to. Even what you suggested isn't going to happen. He's going to publicly support AV until a change is made.

 

What I said was coachspeak -- and I agree that he will and should stick to that.  I'm not saying he should "call out" AV.  He just needs to express an appropriate amount of concern without calling him out.

 

He went a bit too far by saying "(Vinatieri) is the last guy I'm worried about."  If that's actually true, then it's a real problem.  It bears repeating....in Adam Vinatieri's last two games he has missed:

 

- PAT

- 23 Yard FG

- PAT

- 46 Yard FG

- 29 Yard FG

 

That's in his last two games, Superman.  So two PATs and two FGs less than 30 yards!  And the coach is saying he's not worried about it?

 

If what Reich said is not true and he actually is worried about it, then it's a lie.  And that's no good either.

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6 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

What I said was coachspeak -- and I agree that he will and should stick to that.  I'm not saying he should "call out" AV.  He just needs to express an appropriate amount of concern without calling him out.

 

He went a bit too far by saying "(Vinatieri) is the last guy I'm worried about."  If that's actually true, then it's a real problem.  It bears repeating....in Adam Vinatieri's last two games he has missed:

 

- PAT

- 23 Yard FG

- PAT

- 46 Yard FG

- 29 Yard FG

 

That's in his last two games, Superman.  So two PATs and two FGs less than 30 yards!  And the coach is saying he's not worried about it?

 

If what Reich said is not true and he actually is worried about it, then it's a lie.  And that's no good either.

 

What he said was coachspeak, and there's literally zero reason to judge it as anything more than that. 

 

Behind closed doors, I'm sure he has some concern about whether his kicker will get on track. He doesn't have to say that publicly, though. It serves no purpose, and could actually make the problem worse.

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4 hours ago, LuckyHorseShoe§ said:

And if AV thinks he’s done, AV will make that choice. Even if he’s been shaky the last year or so, who do we have lined up right now that’s better than him? You said his kicks last year were shaky, but other than two misses in a playoff game where no one on the Colts played well, he still made them right? That’s more than you can say for most of the other kickers we could get.

Also, if we’re going by your philosophy of past player success means nothing, then I guess we should’ve kicked Luck off the team after he played like crap in KC. It’s not even week two and you guys are talking about a massive roster move because a guy had a lousy day. Darius Leonard didn’t play all that great yesterday, should we put him out to pasture? Everything on this forum is just total knee jerk reactions, with no thought. Maybe we should let Ballard Reich and AV handle this one. You have no idea if he could be back to normal next week

 

-- Ballard (and others in the FO) and Reich (and other coaches) handle everything, whether we want them to or not.  This is an NFL football team, not a democracy.  We're just fans and all we can really do is spout off...which isn't worth much one way or the other.

 

-- I don't think it's all that useful to compare a QB to a PK.  But if Andrew had been unable to successfully throw short passes to open receivers, then of course we'd be advocating for him to be benched in favor of somebody else.  An NFL quarterback should be able to do those things...just like an NFL kicker should not be missing 2 PATs and 2 sub-30 yard FGs (plus a 46 yarder) in successive games.

 

-- We had Michael Badgley in last year's preseason.  In fact, he kicked quite well for us.  We should've let Adam know at that time we were moving forward with him.  He was subsequently picked up by the Chargers and had a fine season for them last year.

 

Water under the bridge now, I know.  Shouldas and wouldas -- although I was saying even then that we should hang on to Badgley over Vinny (but, again, I don't have a say and I know that).

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I am still thinking with a soccer stadium having different kinds of site lines and dimensions are different had some effect. Also maybe the sun had something to do with it being a soccer stadium.

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2 hours ago, Exodus said:

How in the world have y'all managed a six page thread over a kicker? The Colts allowed the chargers to convert 7-11 third downs, including multiple third and longs.

 

Our defense couldn't contain a backup running back.

 

Eric Ebron couldn't make a TD grab he made all of last season.

 

Our secondary continues to look like swiss cheese playing a Tampa-2.

 

Did the GOAT have an awful game yesterday? Yes, absolutely, and I don't think anyone is denying that. You're insane if you think we solely lost the game yesterday on his leg.

 

Adam has said more than once he'll only play until he feels like he can't help a team win. He's not playing for anything, he doesn't have an ego, and he'd be on another team RIGHT NOW if the Colts didn't re-sign him. This whole thread is silly.

 

Did yesterday suck? Absolutely, but I'm quite pleased with how the team played overall. We have a VERY tough schedule this year, so to play like we did yesterday IN LA is more than I ever could have hoped for. Go Colts

 

 

 

Vinny is the GOAT but you're trying to portion out blame where it doesn't lie. Vinny said the loss is 100% on him and that's because it is. In a game that close, he missed gimmes.

 

Could the defense have been better? Sure. They looked like they did versus Brady last year. Didn't show enough solutions for the quick passing game. They have to get better.'

 

That backup running back you're knocking is exactly the kind of running back who gives this defense trouble. I watch the Chargers quite a bit and as the media has said, they didnt skip a beat when Gordon went down last year, and I'd argue Gordon would have been much easier for this defense to face than Ekeler. 

 

It's a team sport and on the road, you have to be perfect against good teams and Vinny knows that better than anyone else on that team. This loss was on him, he said that much and he's right.

 

**the team have things to correct on defense and even on offense but they went on the road v a top 5 QB and should have won. That's way better than anything they've done versus a legit QB in years.

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

What he said was coachspeak, and there's literally zero reason to judge it as anything more than that. 

 

Behind closed doors, I'm sure he has some concern about whether his kicker will get on track. He doesn't have to say that publicly, though. It serves no purpose.

 

If what you're saying is true -- that he actually is concerned about Vinny, despite saying otherwise -- then he simply lied.  I don't equate lying to coachspeak.

 

And FTR, I don't think Frank Reich is a liar.  That's why the comment troubled me -- I believed him.  Because he absolutely should be concerned about a kicker who can't hit basically 100% from 20-30 yards...I don't care who he is or how many records he holds.

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3 hours ago, Exodus said:

How in the world have y'all managed a six page thread over a kicker?

For the same reason People Magazine is popular. Most folks just love drama. I have seen so many good football talk threads, but the ones that get huge, are almost always negative or controversial. 

 

Supe or coffeedrinker could start a thread about educating fans to strongside/weakside, A gap/ B gap, personnel packages and so on....and would it be lucky to get to 2 pages. However, have a crap character player from another team get cut or released, and the "we should kick the tires group" will argue with the "that player does not fit the Ballard mode group" and rack up 12 pages. 

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35 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

If what you're saying is true -- that he actually is concerned about Vinny, despite saying otherwise -- then he simply lied.  I don't equate lying to coachspeak.

 

And FTR, I don't think Frank Reich is a liar.  That's why the comment troubled me -- I believed him.  Because he absolutely should be concerned about a kicker who can't hit basically 100% from 20-30 yards...I don't care who he is or how many records he holds.

 

Coachspeak often is lying. Which is why it's pointless to pick it apart. 

 

Let's say the score was 23-24 instead of 22-24. Do you think Reich might have still gone for two? At the same end that AV missed all three times, by the way. I think there's a strong chance he would have gone for two on the road, and I think there are coaches who might make that decision even if their kicker has been perfect. 

 

If he had, would he have said 'yeah, I wasn't sure about sending AV out there again, that was part of why we went for the win'? I don't. I think he would have said 'we just wanted to go for the win.' And that would have been coachspeak. 

 

I don't think Reich is a liar, but he's lied before. And I don't think he's naive, either. He was on a team that lost a SB because a kicker blew it with the game on the line. He knows what a shaky kicker can do to a team and their goals. But he doesn't have to panic because AV had a shaky game. Even two, eight months apart. They'll give him a chance to regroup, and if he can't get it together right away, they'll make a change. I'm very confident of that. 

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He missed the kicks, simple as that.  Indy gave the Chargers a game a couple weeks after Luck "surprisingly" retiring, they did much better than I thought they would.

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Maybe this pretty much ends this discussion (for now ) >>>>>>> 

Mike Chappell‏Verified account @mchappell51 48m48 minutes ago

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Frank Reich’s support of Adam Vinatieri remains unwavering http://via.cbs4indy.com/0j7NQ via @cbs4indy 

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16 hours ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

-- Ballard (and others in the FO) and Reich (and other coaches) handle everything, whether we want them to or not.  This is an NFL football team, not a democracy.  We're just fans and all we can really do is spout off...which isn't worth much one way or the other.

 

-- I don't think it's all that useful to compare a QB to a PK.  But if Andrew had been unable to successfully throw short passes to open receivers, then of course we'd be advocating for him to be benched in favor of somebody else.  An NFL quarterback should be able to do those things...just like an NFL kicker should not be missing 2 PATs and 2 sub-30 yard FGs (plus a 46 yarder) in successive games.

 

-- We had Michael Badgley in last year's preseason.  In fact, he kicked quite well for us.  We should've let Adam know at that time we were moving forward with him.  He was subsequently picked up by the Chargers and had a fine season for them last year.

 

Water under the bridge now, I know.  Shouldas and wouldas -- although I was saying even then that we should hang on to Badgley over Vinny (but, again, I don't have a say and I know that).

Fair enough, I just get tired of doom and gloom around here. I’ll be holding my judgement for at least another couple of games, but if you think Adam needs to be done I can understand after Sunday. I think we can both hope though that he turns it around this Sunday.

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19 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

I am still thinking with a soccer stadium having different kinds of site lines and dimensions are different had some effect. Also maybe the sun had something to do with it being a soccer stadium.

And his shoelaces were too tight, and the Dr Scholl's pads he put in threw off his balance, and the dog ate his car keys. C'mon now, he's a 25 year veteran GOAT.

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On 9/8/2019 at 6:19 PM, jvan1973 said:

The man has won us a lot of games as well.   Today sucked,  no question. But he isn't getting cut.     

 

Why? This is a business man, they don't owe him anything. He's 197 years old, he should've made the decision so they didn't have to. The Patriots have it right, much better to cut ties a year early than a year late. They aren't just racking up SBs because of Tom and Bill, it's a ridiculously well ran organization. 

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holy cow I cant believe the disrespect I have read in this thread. some of you should be embarrassed. :facepalm:

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AV Said after watching film he noticed some technique issues. Someone at the game that watched warmups said he was kicking them just fine. Hopefully he won’t over correct.

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 It’s going to be interesting to see how Vinny bounces back. If he does, and retires playing as well as ever, it would enhance his legacy to overcome adversity.

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Here's the thing: fans have come to expect extra point kicks to be automatic and field goal attempts inside 45 yards to be pretty much the same.  Those expectations are held by fans of every team.  When one the best ever (who has been "automatic" through most of his career) has a game like that, it's natural that fans would scrutinize his performance.

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AV's kick percentage has been declining every season since 2014. He is clearly in decline. Those that do not believe he is declining are ignoring the facts. How many more missed FG's do we need to stomach before finally moving on?

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1 hour ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

 

It's a business before anything else. 

and? maybe wait til there is more proof than one game. so far its taken 1 game for most to claim Brissett is a QB god and to claim AV the GOAT sucks.

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On 9/8/2019 at 7:21 PM, csmopar said:

I think you wait and see how he responds next week. He misses again...  

 

Yes, but be on the phone to check on replacements.  But, they are all iffy.  I remember Ravens had 2 kickers.  They trade Kaare Vedvik to Vikings... who then cut him.  Jets picked him up, and just cut him as well.

 

Bears and other teams had issues at the K spot.  It’s not as easy to fix as cut your guy and sign another..

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On 9/9/2019 at 12:00 PM, TheNextGM said:

Cut him.

 

Not the popular opinion but he’s not the guy he used to be. 

Totally agree.  We have no need for a 46 year old kicker who has battled injuries for a couple years.

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24 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Totally agree.  We have no need for a 46 year old kicker who has battled injuries for a couple years.

Who do you propose replacing him with?

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No one in particular, but there are many kickers ready for the NFL who can make 40 yd FGs and Xpoints and aren't injured.

 

One of those guys

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Adam is a pro.  He will not limit his kicks as much if it helps.

 

He knows there is no purpose to limit kicks and extend his career if it becomes subpar due to limited kicking.  He’s the ultimate pro, he’ll get it right.  Whatever that eventually becomes.

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On 9/9/2019 at 3:33 PM, Chloe6124 said:

I am still thinking with a soccer stadium having different kinds of site lines and dimensions are different had some effect. Also maybe the sun had something to do with it being a soccer stadium.

He does have a history in that stadium. I think we are seeing a disturbing trend. We already lost one punter who was doing kick-offs to help preserve AV career. I was surprised we signed him for this year... Really hopes he proves me wrong

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3 strikes and you are out typically. Vinatieri still has 2 more strikes (or 1 more strike if you want to count the KC playoff game :dunno:). He has always been around a 75% FG guy, so if he goes 3 out of 4 vs the Titans on all fronts or better (FGs and PATs), I would have to say he is fine. All eyes on him, no doubt.

 

Mason Crosby had that one terrible game vs the Lions last year, the Packers stuck with him and he is still their kicker. Vinatieri has earned the same level of leeway, if not more, that Crosby earned with the Packers.

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