improved line play? numbers don't seem to support it

[CR91]

I for one do thing the line has played better so don't think this is me bashing the line. Far from it. Just passing along some information. I just read something from my friend that cites luck has been hit 42 times out of 98 drop backs. thoughts?

[Freeupfreeney]

That number, like last years, always seemed way too high. Thats almost a hit for half his drops

[csmopar]

Can't say I'm surprised.especially with rietz play of late. But they have flashed some potential. If luck can survive this season,  the line could be average to above average this time next yr

[corgi]

Reitz being out may improve things. I like what I've seen from Haeg.

[NorthernBlue]

The good thing is they are young and growing. As long as they grow together and improve as group, I will be satisfied. They were good at time against SD, great in the second half against Detroit, but were pretty awful against Denver (which to be fair, everybody is). Lets see how they do in the coming weeks, especially now that Reitz who is arguably the weakest link right now, may be out.

[Gavin]

We have had better Center play to an extent. Not where it should be but better. Through 3 games RG is still a mess. Reitz is not healthy so RT has been a problem

[zibby43]

I think the Denver game skews things a bit.  That defense is ridiculous.

 

The Lions aren't a good team, but they also have a good front 7.

 

I expect the line to get better.  We must remember that although there has been an infusion of new, young talent along the line, this is a line that needs to continue to build chemistry and continuity, traits that are invaluable to an offensive line.

 

AC and Mewhort have been rock solid, and the rookies (Kelly and Haeg) will continue to get better.  It's not easy to start right away as an offensive lineman in the NFL.

 

My 2 cents.

[NewColtsFan]

 

What's the old expression?        There are lies,  damn lies and statistics!

 

The line is much better.     And hopefully each month of the season it will get even better.

 

Luck has been Luck in 2 of his 3 games.      And Gore just had 70 yards rushing at the half against SD.

 

We're making progress.      Is it too slow?     Yes.     But there is clear progress.

 

The line is getting better and that is often a very slow process.       Patience.

 

[colts1993]

I honestly think Griggs needs to draft with strategy as he did this last draft to really solidify the line. One pick wasn't going to make our line that much better.  Just my opinion 

[crazycolt1]

Even though the majority of the last draft was on the O-line to expect immediate results is unrealistic.

No one should expect rookies to enter the NFL and play like seasoned veterans.

Like has already been mentioned, patience.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

10 hours ago, corgi said:

Reitz being out may improve things. I like what I've seen from Haeg.

 

I agree he in my opinion was a weak link as I watched Haeg play moving over & taking Reitz 's spot  I was impressed with the rookie . 

[lollygagger8]

I'd like to know why the staff aren't doing more to help the O-Line and Luck out.....

 

How about a quick slant? 

How about practicing and executing actual screens? 

How about QB rollouts? 

How about no huddle offense? 

How about TE's and RB's chipping DE's?

[pgt_rob]

I thought the line seemed to be okay. Even after they replaced Reitz who apparently has been battling neck and leg injuries this season. Gore had 70 yards rushing in the first half and then we tapered off the run in the second half. Luck is continuing to hold onto the ball which amounts to him being pressured quite a bit more. TY Hilton went off, so I'm cool with that. Lets see what Chud does this weekend against Jacksonville. I think we see another dose of the deep ball.

[BCoop]

I would be interested to see of the 42 hits, what is the average time Luck has had the ball in his hands? What about the other 56? I would wager good money the ball has been held at least a second longer on average for the 42 hits.

 

The line has improved immensely from last year. I don't need statistics to support that. But we are still not getting the ball out quick enough. 

[Archangel]

I agree with lollygagger8 the Colts need to start throwing a few slants, A roll out or two  maybe a couple of draws at least to keep the defense honest, This is where ferguson can be dangerous if you can get him into the flats on a pitch this guy can flat out run, Some how the Colts need to slow the defense down.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

18 hours ago, CR91 said:

I for one do thing the line has played better so don't think this is me bashing the line. Far from it. Just passing along some information. I just read something from my friend that cites luck has been hit 42 times out of 98 drop backs. thoughts?

 

Luck's inability to identify blitzes and adjust accordingly certainly doesn't help things. As good of a QB as he is, he really struggles to identify pre-snap when the defense is blitzing. He's surprised way too often by blitzes for a 5th year QB.

 

But that aside, we had to know that the there would be growing pains with the youth along the o-line. 

[Cynjin]

18 hours ago, CR91 said:

I for one do thing the line has played better so don't think this is me bashing the line. Far from it. Just passing along some information. I just read something from my friend that cites luck has been hit 42 times out of 98 drop backs. thoughts?

 

I heard a similar stat, but it was 42 pressures out of 98 drop backs.  I'm not sure where the info came from.  I think it was a PFF stat.

[21isSuperman]

4 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

I'd like to know why the staff aren't doing more to help the O-Line and Luck out.....

 

How about a quick slant? 

How about practicing and executing actual screens? 

How about QB rollouts? 

How about no huddle offense? 

How about TE's and RB's chipping DE's?

Truth.  Somebody make this man the offensive coordinator!

[Solon]

The line hasn't been bad(excluding Reitz). Like Rich Gannon said, teams are blitzing the living hell out of Luck as our offense is based on downfield passing. Line picked most of the blitzes up, but eventually teams are going to get through to your QB. We have to emphasize shorter passes to make defenses play honest. If not, they're going to continue to blitz.

[SaturdayAllDay]

10 hours ago, BCoop said:

I would be interested to see of the 42 hits, what is the average time Luck has had the ball in his hands? What about the other 56? I would wager good money the ball has been held at least a second longer on average for the 42 hits.

 

The line has improved immensely from last year. I don't need statistics to support that. But we are still not getting the ball out quick enough. 

If it helps, there is a statistic that just came out that does support it. Next Gen stats apparently just came out saying that our line gave luck the longest average throw time in the NFL in week 3. 

[loudnproudcolt]

I don't know what everyone else is watching, but this line is getting better each week, and people forget how young they are. Haeg played a really good game, and I think we found our RT of the future.  Kelly has done one heck of a job for a rookie, and that position is now solidified. If Good can lock down the RG spot, our line is going to get better each game, and be a very good line. This line could hit the wall since we have a lot of young players, but I believe we finally have a good lineup for the future, although I don't know if Haeg will be the RG or RT. Howard Mudd was right about the kid. I think he is going to be really good!

Did no one notice in the first half especially we are finally starting to run the ball, which helps Luck immensely.

Castanzo, Mewhort, Kelly, Good, Haeg are going to be very good as they get more experience. They are just very young. From the first game to Sunday, they have improved immensely. The Denver game is an outlier since no one seems to stop that DL.

Also on Luck not picking up blitzes, It is not always his fault, and we lay way too much blame at his feet for certain areas. Richardson missed a block on one blitz Sunday and Luck was destroyed. So it is not always his fault.

 

As far as the OL and the DL, I am finally for the first time in years excited going forward. We have a lot of young players we drafted who are developing and I think it is going to be a strength in the years to come.

[AZColt11]

The numbers may not show it but I think they are getting better at certain positions.  RT is still a weakness and I think that is where most of the hits are coming from.

[Superman]

On 9/26/2016 at 3:27 PM, CR91 said:

I for one do thing the line has played better so don't think this is me bashing the line. Far from it. Just passing along some information. I just read something from my friend that cites luck has been hit 42 times out of 98 drop backs. thoughts?

 

Someone already said this, but I'd like to co-sign... that's not 42 hits, it's 42 pressures. And pressures is a somewhat subjective metric. I haven't charted it, but I think 42 is a bit high.

 

Other things to consider: Did you know that, before Sunday, the Colts hadn't run a single offensive play with the lead? They've been playing from behind a lot, which means more obvious passing situations (almost the entire second half of the opener, for instance), which means more aggressive pass rush.

 

Also, Luck takes more time to throw than almost every QB in the league, and his average depth of target is deeper than any QB in the league. If QB1 is generally quicker to throw and attempts shorter passes than QB2, you can probably count on QB1 facing a lower rate of pressure than QB2.

 

This is why, especially with offensive line play, there's no adequate substitute for actually watching the games. Even better is watching other teams play, so you can get good context. The Colts protection hasn't been great, but it's definitely improved. Reitz has been leaky at RT, whether it's due to injury or him just not having it, but he either needs to sit out or get it together, because he's the weak link right now. AC has had troubles, too, but he was better Sunday, and will be fine. There are injury issues at RG, but between Good and Haeg, assuming they get and stay healthy, I think RG will be okay. (I definitely don't want to see anymore snaps of Blythe at RG...)

[NewColtsFan]

 

It's only one state in one game,  but here's a number that would dispute the idea that the o-line isn't getting better.

 

I found this over on NFL.com.      I'm cutting and pasting....

 

7. Despite Indianapolis's reputation for a weak offensive line, quarterback Andrew Luck had the longest average time to throw in Week 3 with 2.98 seconds per pass.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Imagine if Luck could get the ball put quicker. Imagine if our coaches actually called short throws... we'd be like the Patriots buy even better 

[ztboiler]

7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Someone already said this, but I'd like to co-sign... that's not 42 hits, it's 42 pressures. And pressures is a somewhat subjective metric. I haven't charted it, but I think 42 is a bit high.

 

Other things to consider: Did you know that, before Sunday, the Colts hadn't run a single offensive play with the lead? They've been playing from behind a lot, which means more obvious passing situations (almost the entire second half of the opener, for instance), which means more aggressive pass rush.

 

Also, Luck takes more time to throw than almost every QB in the league, and his average depth of target is deeper than any QB in the league. If QB1 is generally quicker to throw and attempts shorter passes than QB2, you can probably count on QB1 facing a lower rate of pressure than QB2.

 

This is why, especially with offensive line play, there's no adequate substitute for actually watching the games. Even better is watching other teams play, so you can get good context. The Colts protection hasn't been great, but it's definitely improved. Reitz has been leaky at RT, whether it's due to injury or him just not having it, but he either needs to sit out or get it together, because he's the weak link right now. AC has had troubles, too, but he was better Sunday, and will be fine. There are injury issues at RG, but between Good and Haeg, assuming they get and stay healthy, I think RG will be okay. (I definitely don't want to see anymore snaps of Blythe at RG...)

Simply put, and in agreement with what you are saying, Luck still has the ball in his hands way too long on average.  Don't know whether it's Luck or Chud, but we need our rhythm to be more like "quick, quick, long" in order to slow pass rush and deter blitzes, and sustain drives.

 

The bigger mistake than leaving Reitz on an island against Miller, if that's possible, was not having a quick hitting drive starter teed up instead of a deep drop.  How many times have we seen elite pass rushers stymied by 3 step drops?  Its irritating that we didn't make Miller and company rush several times without getting home before dropping Luck back 5-7 steps.

[IinD]

They're better, but they aren't where you'd consider a good line to be. 

 

We'll see how it plays out over the weeks.

[Valpo2004]

Getting the ball out quicker would likely help us a lot.  

 

Unfortunately our offense is designed around the deep threat.  Every single one of our receivers is a deep threat.  But we don't have an Edelman or someone like that who can act as a possession receiver.  

[Coffeedrinker]

What "numbers"?  You look at one number and claim it's plural.  I'd say the number(s) show the line has improved

 

Yards Per Play

2015 - 4.9

2016 - 5.6

 

Yards Per Rush

2015 - 3.6

2016 - 3.9

 

Yards Per Pass

2015 - 6.3

2016 - 7.4

 

Rushing TDs

2015 - 6

2016 - 3 (thru three games)

 

3rd Down Conversion

2015 - 40%

2016 - 43.5%

 

All of those "numbers" indicate improved line play.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

Imagine if Luck could get the ball put quicker. Imagine if our coaches actually called short throws... we'd be like the Patriots buy even better 

Luck has never had a quick release, even at Stanford. We knew that when he was drafted.

I stated earlier than I would like to see more timing patterns. I think that would also take some of the pressure off Luck.

 

[Gavin]

17 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

What "numbers"?  You look at one number and claim it's plural.  I'd say the number(s) show the line has improved

 

Yards Per Play

2015 - 4.9

2016 - 5.6

 

Yards Per Rush

2015 - 3.6

2016 - 3.9

 

Yards Per Pass

2015 - 6.3

2016 - 7.4

 

Rushing TDs

2015 - 6

2016 - 3 (thru three games)

 

3rd Down Conversion

2015 - 40%

2016 - 43.5%

 

All of those "numbers" indicate improved line play.

I think all of those are more indicators of the scheme and ability of our skill position players to run the scheme more than anything or more do to the type of receivers we have. I think a bigger indicator is the run game which has improved slightly but not significantly

[Coffeedrinker]

31 minutes ago, Gavin said:

I think all of those are more indicators of the scheme and ability of our skill position players to run the scheme more than anything or more do to the type of receivers we have. I think a bigger indicator is the run game which has improved slightly but not significantly

You would be incorrect.  They don't ONLY indicate improved oline play but all of them are indicators of improved oline.  For skill positions as scheme you focus more on yards per completion, yards after contact, plays of 20+ and 40+.

 

Additionally, an 8.3% improvement in yards per carry is a pretty significant improvement.

[throwing BBZ]

On 9/27/2016 at 1:33 PM, 21isSuperman said:

Truth.  Somebody make this man the offensive coordinator!

 

 Not so bright if you get it that Grigs lineman are too slow/lack athleticism to block on the move.
 It really is that simple.  Good grief!

[stitches]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

It's only one state in one game,  but here's a number that would dispute the idea that the o-line isn't getting better.

 

I found this over on NFL.com.      I'm cutting and pasting....

 

7. Despite Indianapolis's reputation for a weak offensive line, quarterback Andrew Luck had the longest average time to throw in Week 3 with 2.98 seconds per pass.

 

That might have something to do with his willingness to hold the ball till the very end and not give up on plays, too.

[Gavin]

10 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

You would be incorrect.  They don't ONLY indicate improved oline play but all of them are indicators of improved oline.  For skill positions as scheme you focus more on yards per completion, yards after contact, plays of 20+ and 40+.

 

Additionally, an 8.3% improvement in yards per carry is a pretty significant improvement.

I never said they weren't indicators. I said a bigger indicator is the ability to run the ball not the only indicator

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

What "numbers"?  You look at one number and claim it's plural.  I'd say the number(s) show the line has improved

 

Yards Per Play

2015 - 4.9

2016 - 5.6

 

Yards Per Rush

2015 - 3.6

2016 - 3.9

 

Yards Per Pass

2015 - 6.3

2016 - 7.4

 

Rushing TDs

2015 - 6

2016 - 3 (thru three games)

 

3rd Down Conversion

2015 - 40%

2016 - 43.5%

 

All of those "numbers" indicate improved line play.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way.......  

 

But I think I love you!!                                 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, stitches said:

 

That might have something to do with his willingness to hold the ball till the very end and not give up on plays, too.

 

Sure.......   to a degree....

 

But I believe I read somewhere recently that Luck's time to get passes off during his first 4 years has been about 2.62 seconds.     Now, this week,  it's nearly 3 seconds.     That's a big jump.     Luck may like to hold on to the ball,   but given that he's being coached up to get rid of ASAP and the line has new and improved talent, plus it comes in a game where Gore runs for 70 yards in the first half alone,  then  I suspect this is mostly about line play.

 

I'm not dismissing your reasoning at all,  just trying to see the Big Picture.

 

[Gavin]

18 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sure.......   to a degree....

 

But I believe I read somewhere recently that Luck's time to get passes off during his first 4 years has been about 2.62 seconds.     Now, this week,  it's nearly 3 seconds.     That's a big jump.     Luck may like to hold on to the ball,   but given that he's being coached up to get rid of ASAP and the line has new and improved talent, plus it comes in a game where Gore runs for 70 yards in the first half alone,  then  I suspect this is mostly about line play.

 

I'm not dismissing your reasoning at all,  just trying to see the Big Picture.

 

Long story short its neither 1 problem or the other. Its a combination of both. It always has been. Its not all Andrew and not all the O Line. Its really a play to play issue, One play an O Lineman gets beat off the snap outright...Which has happened more than anything this season from what I have seen. Another play it could be hanging onto the ball to long or a WR not being able to get separation regardless if long or short route at times.

 

Also I have not kept track myself but ESPN's splits for Andrew have him only attempting 12 passes of 21+ yards which amounts to 3 a game. Now what that stat does not account for is how many times our receivers have ran deep down field and Luck simply did not release the ball. I think we have wanted to attempt several more than 12 but because one of the reasons listed above it did not work out. Chud can adjust to his personnel obviously but he is more vertical oriented

[PrincetonTiger]

This is somewhat misleading since some of those hits/pressures came from poor TE/RB blocking

 

*disclaimer*

 As a former G/C and OL coach I could be biased

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Long story short its neither 1 problem or the other. Its a combination of both. It always has been. Its not all Andrew and not all the O Line. Its really a play to play issue, One play an O Lineman gets beat off the snap outright...Which has happened more than anything this season from what I have seen. Another play it could be hanging onto the ball to long or a WR not being able to get separation regardless if long or short route at times.

 

Also I have not kept track myself but ESPN's splits for Andrew have him only attempting 12 passes of 21+ yards which amounts to 3 a game. Now what that stat does not account for is how many times our receivers have ran deep down field and Luck simply did not release the ball. I think we have wanted to attempt several more than 12 but because one of the reasons listed above it did not work out. Chud can adjust to his personnel obviously but he is more vertical oriented

 

12 passes in 3 games if 4 per game.......    not 3.

 

When you have a 4-year average of 2.62 and suddenly in one game you're at 2.98 and the running game has 70 yards at the half,   I'd say it's much more of a reflection of an improved running game than anything else.

 

To me,  it's pretty obvious.      You're free to disagree.