Looks like the defense has regressed back to normal

[ColtsBlueFL]

8 hours ago, Trueman said:

I'm not a big fan of the scheme either. It's reminding me too much of the Peyton era. My hope is that Ballard just gets bigger/better players than Polian did and doesn't ignore positions -- anything more (like running a cover 3) and it's gravy. The days of Raheem Brock at DT doesn't really fire me up

 

The cover 2 has evolved. It had to with 11 personnel and athletic tight ends, thus using a Nickel to cover the slot or TE instead of a linebacker (so the SAM often sits). Other changes are by playing more man concepts with their nickel slot corner, which led to deviations from the classic zone concepts.  Another is to line up in classic Cover 2, then upon the snap rotate into a single high coverage (IE: Single high robber, etc...).  The change ups can alter zone holes and create enough offensive confusion to bring the pass rush back into play.  And there are more disguises. But it's more for the players to learn than the plain old Tampa base 2, and needs certain types of players.

 

I don't think anyone can tell what Eberflus is doing from TV coverage.  All 22 tape and study is needed here. But I can assure you, with the abundance of spread offenses and 3 x 2 empty sets etc... we are not running pure "Tampa 2".

[lollygagger8]

15 hours ago, DougDew said:

I know people don't agree with me, but I've thought Fairly and Hairston were our two best players in the secondary and I don't see anything to change my thinking so far.

 

I like both Leonard and Walker, and still like Al Woods, but everybody else on the D is replaceable, IMO.  Just speaking from their level of play so far and not their potential, if you get my drift.  

 

Has Ridgeway been chronically injured all season?

 

There are more players on the D that are good. Moore and Hooker are good. Mitchell was good when he was playing, especially for only being on the team for a week. Sheard doesn't doesn't show up on the sack stats, but he's always disrupting plays. Turay has been pretty decent. 

 

I think the defense's main problem is playing zone all the time and not being any good at it. Eberflus needs to change it up for often and actually try to challenge opposing QB's instead of letting them T-off and hit all the soft spots (ALOT of them) in the coverage. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Zone defense in and of itself is not the issue.  The bulk of NFL teams use it often -

 

https://www.fantasyguru.com/articles/2018-nfl-defensive-schemes-chart

 

its the evolution and disguises/rotations of the sub packages that really can ‘win the day’ IMO.

[Restored]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

Zone defense in and of itself is not the issue.  The bulk of NFL teams use it often -

 

https://www.fantasyguru.com/articles/2018-nfl-defensive-schemes-chart

 

its the evolution and disguises/rotations of the sub packages that really can ‘win the day’ IMO.

 

And having the players to make the scheme effective.

[CaptainColt12]

arthur Maulett was sooooo bad on Sunday, he annoyed me so much with his poor footwork and terrible tackling form. We need a big time CB(FA or preferably  the Draft) paired with kenny moore.

[Nesjan3]

17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I’m sorry, but this is incorrect.

 

Eberflus was NOT McDaniels’ guy.   He was and is Ballard ‘s guy.   McDaniels couldn’t pick Eberflus out if a police lineup.

 

When Ballard hired JM he told McDaniels about ME and how he wanted him to be the new DC.   McDaniels didn’t care about that side of the ball, so he agreed.   He made the call and extended the offer.   But he’s always been Ballard’s guy.  They met a few years ago and Ballard said ME made a huge impression on him and he always wanted to hire him.

 

If you’re not happy with the defense now, it’s not on ME,  it’s on the lack of talent.   We need much more talent on that side of the ball. 

 

Unless theres been a falling out that we dont we don’t know about, I wouldn’t get my hopes up for a change at DC.   Not going to happen.   Especially after one year with little talent.

I respect the research it looks like you have done, i was not aware of this. I was under the impression that he was hand picked by Mcdaniels. Either way though his defensive scheme is looking pretty vanilla and not working very well. I would hope if he can't evolve than he would be replaced.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, Restored said:

 

And having the players to make the scheme effective.

 

Yes. And Ive. Mentioned it before... I feel there is no one more qualified to find defensive players that fit the current Colts system than Chris Ballard.

[Calmack]

I honestly thought Pipkins was worth keeping over Maulet given how bad he played Sunday.

[Barry Sears]

Let's revisit this topic next year at this time after Ballard makes his picks in the 2019 draft and signs some free agents.  I'm predicting our defense will get fixed like our OL did this year.  There were lots of broken pieces and not enough picks to fix them all in one draft.

[needanoline63]

On 11/12/2018 at 1:33 PM, rockywoj said:

Basically, as I see it, the Colts are in need of 2 elite CBs and an elite SS.  Ergo, the secondary is 3 players short of becoming formidable.

 

As a whole, I think the defense needs to add 3 DBs, another LB, and another elite DLineman.

We need two elite interior lineman and two elite corners. We need a Ed Houston or Aaron Donald. 

[needanoline63]

4 hours ago, CaptainColt12 said:

arthur Maulett was sooooo bad on Sunday, he annoyed me so much with his poor footwork and terrible tackling form. We need a big time CB(FA or preferably  the Draft) paired with kenny moore.

Kenny Moore is a #3 dude

Just now, needanoline63 said:

Kenny Moore is a #3 dude

He can not and will not be elite

[Jdubu]

On 11/12/2018 at 1:43 PM, masterlock said:

It would be interesting to see what Greg Manuski could do with the current defensive personnel. He seemed to always find creative ways to get pressure even with the lack of talent he had. I'm not a big fan of the current scheme/play-calling.

We’ve gone so far down the barrel in this defense we wished we had Manusky back lol, that’s how bad it’s gotten. What’s next, wishing we had Landry the hulk back in the safety slot lol. 

[Jdubu]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:17 PM, Nesjan3 said:

Im going to attribute a lot of the problems to our D coordinator Uberfus who was Mcdaniels guy. I think he will be gone after the year.

I don’t think there is 1 single chance that Uberflus will be gone next year because even though he was a McDaniels choice, he was thought of very highly around the league as the next DC guy to get hired by a team. Now I must admit, I’m a little confused by non-adjustments made to relive these short middle passes and screens that are flat out killing us but I’ll trust this team just doesn’t have talent to do anything but hope to contain plays and hope the other side makes a mistake and we can capitalize while our offense scores often enough to win the game. Idk, we have to figure out something to get in that backfield quicker or in the face of the QB up the middle better. I’m curious to see what Turay and Lewis beside each other can do for us, if anything different than we are currently getting. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

I respect the research it looks like you have done, i was not aware of this. I was under the impression that he was hand picked by Mcdaniels. Either way though his defensive scheme is looking pretty vanilla and not working very well. I would hope if he can't evolve than he would be replaced.

 

The scheme is what Ballard and Eberflus want to run,  they believe in it.    If it’s not working it’s because of the lack of talent, not the DC.

[chad72]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The scheme is what Ballard and Eberflus want to run,  they believe in it.    If it’s not working it’s because of the lack of talent, not the DC.

 

For everyone's sake, including Eberflus, the Colts and all of us fans, let us hope for considerable improvement on the talent acquistion and defensive performance when the 2019 season plays out. 

[Superman]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I’m sorry, but this is incorrect.

 

Eberflus was NOT McDaniels’ guy.   He was and is Ballard ‘s guy.   McDaniels couldn’t pick Eberflus out if a police lineup.

 

When Ballard hired JM he told McDaniels about ME and how he wanted him to be the new DC.   McDaniels didn’t care about that side of the ball, so he agreed.   He made the call and extended the offer.   But he’s always been Ballard’s guy.  They met a few years ago and Ballard said ME made a huge impression on him and he always wanted to hire him.

 

If you’re not happy with the defense now, it’s not on ME,  it’s on the lack of talent.   We need much more talent on that side of the ball. 

 

Unless theres been a falling out that we dont we don’t know about, I wouldn’t get my hopes up for a change at DC.   Not going to happen.   Especially after one year with little talent.

 

I agree with this post, especially the facts presented.

 

I would like to add, however, that the penalties and technique issues go to coaching. We don't line up properly against stacked receivers, for instance. I'm not calling any of this a failure; the defense is still new and we rely on a lot of young players, so there will be mistakes. But some of them are just technical errors that have to be corrected in film sessions and on the fly. 

[Flash7]

The problem with the defense has a lot to do with the scheme we run. We simply allow for way too much cushion and invite opposing QBs to make easy completions within 5-yards of the LOS and then hope to rally and tackle.

 

This will not change with more talent, unless that guy has figured out how to play both deep and shallow simultaneously.  Even Deon Sanders would struggle giving up so much cushion. If you have a defense that would negate the talents of Deon Sanders, it's not a talent issue, it's a scheme issue. (Hyperbole...I know).

 

We run a basic cover scheme that most college QBs would excel against. There is not much variation to our coverage and that's why most QBs have had success against us this year.

[shasta519]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The scheme is what Ballard and Eberflus want to run,  they believe in it.    If it’s not working it’s because of the lack of talent, not the DC.

 

Thats assuming they are correct about it working. Just because they believe in it...doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right scheme.

 

But I will hold off judging that until next season when they have (hopefully) brought in some more talented players.

[VaAllDay757]

It's been same the story....when we blitz we make stops but when we don't we look lost....this tampa 2 scheme is not the answer we need a better scheme

[Crunked]

 2018 tag line:

 

The Colts, we will make your Quarterback look goooood, and your defense look bad.

[stitches]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The scheme is what Ballard and Eberflus want to run,  they believe in it.    If it’s not working it’s because of the lack of talent, not the DC.

The primary issues with our defense right now is indeed lack of high end pass-defense(including pass rush and cornerbacks) talent, rather than the scheme IMO. This still doesn't mean the scheme is ideal. IMO it allows you to be mediocre more easily(as opposed to absolutely horrendous) but it puts a serious cap to how good it can be. I don't think you can reasonably construct an elite defense while playing Tampa 2 nowadays. Just the best QBs and offensive coordinators absolutely abuse this type of soft zone schemes. 

 

I don't know if you guys have been following what's going on with the Dallas defense but they hired Seattle's ex-defensive coordinator Kris Richard to replace Eberflus as their pass-defense coordinator and they are in the process of transitioning their defense into a Seattle style press man cover 3 and it's beginning to show results. 

 

Ballard interviewed Richard for our HC job so IMO Ballard is not stuck on this specific defensive scheme, he will do what he thinks gives us the best chance to succeed. This along with drafting Hooker(traditional and prototypical single high safety in Seattle type D), drafting Wilson in round 2(IMO he's better in man coverage), getting Ed Dodds who is one of the masterminds behind procuring the talent for Seattle's cover 3 D to be his right hand man... Those are all reasons for me to keep hope that as we get better talent and more experienced talent we will do more cover 3/man coverage stuff... 

 

I'm not sure what that would mean for Eberflus and if he's got any background in that type of defense. 

[MikeCurtis]

20 hours ago, Restored said:

 

And having the players to make the scheme effective.

I think THIS is our problem

 

ANY scheme is made to look poor when there is a lack of talent

 

We just need a few playmakers on this defense

 

We need 5 Players to make this defense upper, middle of the pack

(Which may be good enough)

 

2 DL playmakers - 3Tech and DE - (I HOPE that the team uses 2 of the first 3 slated picks on DL)

 

A SS that can cover but light people up in run support (VERY important spot for this defense)

(Eric Reid / Collins could fill this role)

 

2 CBs that can break to the ball and tackle (I think we need 2 more) Moore isnt enough

 

Outside of Moore, I think the rest of our CBs are just not that good...... Sort of like the offensive line the past few years before this year

 

I would consider cutting almost everyone that is a current CB in the offseason on this rostor

 

We need Hooker to get his mojo back

 

 

With a targeted  (2-3 players) FA, and a targeted defensive draft, we should be better next year on that side of the ball

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

10 hours ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure what that would mean for Eberflus and if he's got any background in that type of defense. 

 

Two things... teams (and I mean All teams) run base defense no more than 1/4 the time.  With teams passing 60-70 % of the time using RPO’s, Spread concepts, 3 x 2 empty sets, etc...  specialized sub packages are mandatory.

 

The thing is, all defenses have holes.  These are game planned for by opposing team. Not all players on a defense are upper tier.  If the holes are also manned by lower tier players, that’s what offenses look for pre snap, and attack.  That’s where disguises come in.  Plus players still have to execute their assignment, and the ‘scheme’ looks bad, when at times it should be the players looks bad.

 

Scheme, talent, and execution are symbiotic, not mutually exclusive in top level defenses.

 

That said, I believe Rod Marinelli was changing up the Dallas D well before the Richards hiring.  And many pre-season fantasy sites were predicting Eberflus base D in Indy would be Cover 3 Zone.

 

Nobody with All 22 tape (required) has analyzed our defense and reported back with their findings, yet.

[Creekside]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:31 PM, DougDew said:

I know people don't agree with me, but I've thought Fairly and Hairston were our two best players in the secondary

 

I do agree.

 

When these two guys were playing, the Colts were much better at containing the short passing game which now seems to be the big deficiency with this defense.

[Narcosys]

Some good news though. If we get a top 10 pick, we have a good chance of scoring a seriously good defensive lineman/end as this draft will be full of some beast players.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Two things... teams (and I mean All teams) run base defense no more than 1/4 the time.  With teams passing 60-70 % of the time using RPO’s, Spread concepts, 3 x 2 empty sets, etc...  specialized sub packages are mandatory.

 

The thing is, all defenses have holes.  These are game planned for by opposing team. Not all players on a defense are upper tier.  If the holes are also manned by lower tier players, that’s what offenses look for pre snap, and attack.  That’s where disguises come in.  Plus players still have to execute their assignment, and the ‘scheme’ looks bad, when at times it should be the players looks bad.

 

Scheme, talent, and execution are symbiotic, not mutually exclusive in top level defenses.

 

That said, I believe Rod Marinelli was changing up the Dallas D well before the Richardson hiring.  And many pre-season fantasy sites were predicting Eberflus base D in Indy would be Cover 3 Zone.

 

Nobody with All 22 tape (required) has analyzed our defense and reported back with their findings, yet.

 

This is the scheme I want the Colts to run (thus utilizing different skill sets):

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/31/4382318/the-seahawks-and-the-4-3-under-front-winds-of-change

 

I mentioned it here as well:

 

4-3 Under

[anunnakidna]

On 11/12/2018 at 10:33 AM, rockywoj said:

Basically, as I see it, the Colts are in need of 2 elite CBs and an elite SS.  Ergo, the secondary is 3 players short of becoming formidable.

 

As a whole, I think the defense needs to add 3 DBs, another LB, and another elite DLineman.

So..a new defense.

[ColtsBlueFL]

5 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

This is the scheme I want the Colts to run (thus utilizing different skill sets):

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/31/4382318/the-seahawks-and-the-4-3-under-front-winds-of-change

 

I mentioned it here as well:

 

4-3 Under

 

5 - 7 years ago, they could run that more often, especially with the personnel they had.  These days, its is this what they run - 4 - 3 cover 3 zone.

 

Now I’d like Colts to get players and run this-

 

https://emeraldcityswagger.com/2017/04/09/seattle-seahawks-breaking-down-4-2-5-defense/

 

I just want a decent run stopping base that also keeps the first down pass from being a surprise back breaker.  The bulk of Defense I want is a stellar Big Nickel and Dime package, with some disguises and an occasional blitz.

 

These days, I think defense is less about ‘scheme’ and more about personnel packages and assignments.

 

 

[Finball]

From recent Holder article at athletic

 

Quote

The new defensive play caller, who was installing a brand-new scheme, cued up some examples of what he hoped his players would emulate.

 

You might say he aimed a bit high. Eberflus showed his defenders film cutups of the Steel Curtain-era Pittsburgh Steelers. He dived into the archives and pulled out clips of Tony Dungy’s Tampa Bay Buccaneers defenses. Then he threw in some of Dungy’s Colts teams and Lovie Smith’s Chicago Bears defenses of the 2000s.

 

The Colts don’t have anyone the likes of Mean Joe Greene, Warren Sapp or Dwight Freeney, but Eberflus was attempting to make an important point nonetheless: This scheme, which at its core is, similarly, a Cover 2-based system, can be wildly successful.

 

Defense has talent issue but cover 2 based defenses have struggled pretty mightily this decade. Personally not even fan of soft zones in general though teams like Panthers have made it work fairly recently.

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, Finball said:

From recent Holder article at athletic

 

 

Defense has talent issue but cover 2 based defenses have struggled pretty mightily this decade. Personally not even fan of soft zones in general though teams like Panthers have made it work fairly recently.

So the article refers to us running a cover 2.  I'm not certain we do, but I'll take it at its word.

 

Considering our secondary has struggled, what are the attributes needed for a DB to play well in a Zone cover 2? 

 

For Corners, contesting passes are going to be rarer than tackling well, since there will always seems in the zone and a CB won't necessarily be running with his man.  There will always be times where the CB is a few steps away from the receiver, but he has to tackle him quickly.

 

Also, is there a different responsibility in the run game?

 

For safeties, cover 2 tends to put both safeties back deep.  Both have deep responsibilities, each splitting the field side to side, as opposed to front to back (where only one would have the true deep responsibility).  It would seem that both safeties have to have a blend of attributes and not be that stark of a difference from each other in terms of skill and body type.

 

I tend to think that the intent is for us to NOT run much cover 2, but I haven't seen the secondary play in detail.

[rockywoj]

4 hours ago, anunnakidna said:

So..a new defense.

5 positions out of 11, so no, not an entirely new defense.  Majority of the starting defense would remain the same.

[Finball]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

So the article refers to us running a cover 2.  I'm not certain we do, but I'll take it at its word.

 

Considering our secondary has struggled, what are the attributes needed for a DB to play well in a Zone cover 2? 

 

For Corners, contesting passes are going to be rarer than tackling well, since there will always seems in the zone and a CB won't necessarily be running with his man.  There will always be times where the CB is a few steps away from the receiver, but he has to tackle him quickly.

 

Also, is there a different responsibility in the run game?

 

For safeties, cover 2 tends to put both safeties back deep.  Both have deep responsibilities, each splitting the field side to side, as opposed to front to back (where only one would have the true deep responsibility).  It would seem that both safeties have to have a blend of attributes and not be that stark of a difference from each other in terms of skill and body type.

 

I tend to think that the intent is for us to NOT run much cover 2, but I haven't seen the secondary play in detail.

 

I haven't seen the secondary play in detail either but the little I can tell from broadcasts, we usually play soft zone and with two deep safeties. So cover 2, 4 or 6 or some kind of mix of those.

 

Cover 2 doesn't ask much from a corner. Least of pretty much any coverage. I think that's why Ballard wants it, doesn't make much sense to invest in cover 2 corners when those can be found at 7-eleven (quoting Mike Zimmer) and instead invest the most resources at trenches on both sides of the ball and LBs. In theory, I agree with that philosphy.

 

It's just too easy to get Yards against co cover 2 these days if the QB throwing the ball is good. And our corners can't seem to play well other zones or man, the latter which is an issue for zone corners and an issue for teams that don't invest in corners.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

We need a new Mathis & Freeney  in our next draft  plain & simple .

 

The offense is on track we can all agree its much better line play that has our running game looking better than it has in years watching the o linemen running around getting solid blocks is awesome , 12 is making better decisions the & 3 tight ends are a treat to watch I can't say enough about our newest additions & Reich as HC man he has the team on the right track offensively I could not be much happier , 

 

The Defense is now after years of the offensive line being the number 1 concern the number 1 PRIORITY for Mr Ballard work your magic find us players that can get to the QB that now is our glaring concern .

 

We realized when Ballard took over it was a work in progress & I'm extremely surprised & happy with the progress to this point &

 

Someone mentioned Margus Hunt I too & surprised that he has'nt had more success I thought he was off to a good start whats up with that ?

[krunk]

Im glad it looks like both Turay and Tyquan Lewis will play together this week.   I feel like this is also a good week for them to give Hassan Ridgeway some extended playing time.  He needs to be given more snaps.  I think Ridgeway at 3 tech with Lewis and Turay coming off the edge could get us something.

[richard pallo]

31 minutes ago, krunk said:

Im glad it looks like both Turay and Tyquan Lewis will play together this week.   I feel like this is also a good week for them to give Hassan Ridgeway some extended playing time.  He needs to be given more snaps.  I think Ridgeway at 3 tech with Lewis and Turay coming off the edge could get us something.

It could be just a numbers game for Ridgeway.  We need something like seven inactive for every game.  Injuries take up some of the spots but I think he's been healthy and inactive two straight weeks.  Now it looks like Turay and Lewis are both ready to go.  It looks like he's in a battle for playing time.  

[AZColt11]

I wouldn't mind if Ballard used the entire '19 draft class on defense.  He could find a #2 WR and maybe another OL in FA.  I think we'd be set then.

[chad72]

9 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

5 - 7 years ago, they could run that more often, especially with the personnel they had.  These days, its is this what they run - 4 - 3 cover 3 zone.

 

Now I’d like Colts to get players and run this-

 

https://emeraldcityswagger.com/2017/04/09/seattle-seahawks-breaking-down-4-2-5-defense/

 

I just want a decent run stopping base that also keeps the first down pass from being a surprise back breaker.  The bulk of Defense I want is a stellar Big Nickel and Dime package, with some disguises and an occasional blitz.

 

These days, I think defense is less about ‘scheme’ and more about personnel packages and assignments.

 

 

Whenever I hear 4-2-5, I remember TCU just like that article quoted. New England has been doing that for a while with 3 safeties allowing it to win and lose a close SB vs Falcons and Eagles. In both cases, they could not stop the run. Teams spread them out and ran from 3 WR formations and got chunk yards vs the Patriots. Good for them, they had Tom Brady but otherwise, they gave up 28 and 41 points in the 2 SBs in 2016 and 2017. 

 

Guys like Mike Pettine and Rex Ryan used dime packages all the time with 3 safeties and 3 CBs to produce pressure, so no matter the scheme, you need the right players. If teams like the Eagles and now the Colts start using multiple receiving TEs to cause serious mismatches, the 3 safety look will continue gaining popularity for Big Nickel, like you said. Lots of work to do for Ballard.

[rock8591]

Need a prime NT Booger McFarland and prime UT Warren Sapp in the middle of this line. It'll do wonders for this defense.

 

As opposed to a Raheem Brock, Montae Reagor, Josh Williams, Eric Foster, and Keyunta Dawson.

[Finball]

5 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Whenever I hear 4-2-5, I remember TCU just like that article quoted. New England has been doing that for a while with 3 safeties allowing it to win and lose a close SB vs Falcons and Eagles. In both cases, they could not stop the run. Teams spread them out and ran from 3 WR formations and got chunk yards vs the Patriots. Good for them, they had Tom Brady but otherwise, they gave up 28 and 41 points in the 2 SBs in 2016 and 2017. 

 

Guys like Mike Pettine and Rex Ryan used dime packages all the time with 3 safeties and 3 CBs to produce pressure, so no matter the scheme, you need the right players. If teams like the Eagles and now the Colts start using multiple receiving TEs to cause serious mismatches, the 3 safety look will continue gaining popularity for Big Nickel, like you said. Lots of work to do for Ballard.

 

NE used 3-3-5 against the Eagles and they even used 4 safeties on about 20% of their snaps. Can't recall how they started against the Falcons but in the 2nd half they were able to stop the run and used 3 safeties a lot. I think it was 3-3-5 or 2-3-6 (or 3-2-6). Of course by that time Falcons OL was riddled with injuries.

[CaptainColt12]

On 11/13/2018 at 3:44 PM, needanoline63 said:

Kenny Moore is a #3 dude

He can not and will not be elite

Yeah, but I'm not expecting to get two CB's that are better than Moore in this offseason, so we'll have to wait until he's at the #3 spot.