Trade value in Coby Fleener

[Bluefire4]

Are we basing this "worth a third rounder talk" on potential because Fleener hasn't proven he's worth a third.

[COLT in J-ville]

If the line could actually hold a block for over two seconds, it would be a great formation.  We'll probably see alot of the two tight end sets, and with Allen back they'll have to cover both.  But not with three WRs.

 

I hated the empty backfield in Lucks first year.  It was a license for the defense to blitz since there was no threat of a run. 

That's a BIG if

[Smonroe]

That's a BIG if

 

The biggest.  Second is "If we can get a pass rush without Mathis", tied with "If our secondary can stay healthy"

[BrentMc11]

The biggest.  Second is "If we can get a pass rush without Mathis", tied with "If our secondary can stay healthy"

It is going to be blitz city without Mathis.  Freeman will be coming...McNary is going to shock.  The man is ready this year.  I personally would not like to see a 270+ pound Adongo coming at full speed yelling at a high Kenyan pitch...

 

Add Newsome...Werner...and a dash of Big Art and D'Quell.....I am not counting us out.  Bring out the 20 dollar bills with our very own Andrew Jackson and Muamba too....Trow in RJF for some pressures...and Big Chap...  We have guys that CAN get to the QB....Disguie Manusky disguise!  OK need to take my heart pills now...(And here I forgot Redding...and...)                    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Flash7]

We drafted Fleener in the 2nd round. He has performed well, and now we should trade him for a third or fourth round pick......Why does this not make any sense to me?

 

It's always the same ol' thinking around here with some.....newer is better.

 

Well, NO, no it's not. Fleener is doing just fine.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

To me, this guy is the only guy who has decent trade value and can also be replaced. I think he could net us an early 3rd from a TE needy team, and I would be ok with that because of our depth at WR. Allen has shown to me to be Luck's favorite TE in the pros, and if young players like Moncrief and Da'rick Rogers pan out we are loaded at WR since I expect us to resign either Wayne or Nicks next offseason.

 

We could easily use that extra 3rd to get us some defensive help which we need especially in the secondary. I would wait until we know Allen will be fully healthy for the regular season, and then see if a team bites on Fleener.

Allen caught one ball all season last year (in game 1 before he got hurt for the season).... no way can you say Allen has shown to be Luck's favorite TE at this point.   Luck and Fleener have developed a strong chemistry and Fleener seemed to really make progress from year 1 to year 2.  Fleener and Allen are also 2 different TE's -- with Allen being more of a blocking and possession threat and Fleener being able to really stretch the middle of the field -- maybe Swoope has potential to fill Fleener's niche is a couple years but we don't have any other weapon like Fleener on this team right now.

 

No way do we trade him - especially not for a 3rd rounder.

[BrentMc11]

We drafted Fleener in the 2nd round. He has performed well, and now we should trade him for a third or fourth round pick......Why does this not make any sense to me?

 

It's always the same ol' thinking around here.....newer is better.

 

Well, NO, no it's not. Fleener is doing just fine.

Yep he was 34thand Allen was a steal at 64...Rd 3!!

[Valpo2004]

I'd be more curious if Dwayne Allen was not coming off injury.  

 

Depending on the development of Swoope this might be something to consider before next season however.  

 

Presuming Dwayne Allen can stay healthy I just don't see a long term place for Fleener on this squad.  We can't afford to pay for both when their rookie deals run out, so you might as well get something for Fleener if you can.

 

However I do agree on the premise that he is a guy that we could potentially get some value out of if he was traded and is not necessary long term.  However I think on the short term you want to make sure Dwayne Allen is going to survive the season and not be a major injury risk in the future.  

[Valpo2004]

We drafted Fleener in the 2nd round. He has performed well, and now we should trade him for a third or fourth round pick......Why does this not make any sense to me?

 

It's always the same ol' thinking around here with some.....newer is better.

 

Well, NO, no it's not. Fleener is doing just fine.

 

He's been solid but not spectacular.  I think a 3rd rounder is legitimate value for him.  

[Old Colt]

Luck has "some" trade value and can be replaced by a QB that has been all the way to the Super Bowl...  but I suggest we keep Fleener and this Luck kid...just a suggestion!

[JPFolks]

I would be surprised if we see that formation at all next year.

 

Really?  You don't believe the Colts will EVER run an empty backfield formation? The variation would be two wide, two tights, and Richardson, who can be as effective as a slot in dump off, but I believe they'll line up in 5 receiver formations to overload the defense with 5 players who can't all be covered.  Sure, Luck has to get the ball out quickly, but should his line give him a snippet of time, how is anyone going to cover Nicks, Hilton, Wayne, Allen and Fleener, or if it is with a back, sub a receiver for Richardson and you still have 5 pass catchers you can't cover.  If you lose Fleener, that scenario (using Two Tight Ends with max receivers on a designed play) can't happen with a lesser third level TE.  

 

Additionally, why would we trade one of the top picks from the second round for a third rounder when he had been productive and on an upward trajectory talent wise?  Makes no sense unless the money simply isn't there to sign everyone.  They you'd still need to make a judgement between who remained healthy this year and produced with other receiving talent on the field at the level we will have this year.  

And... we'll see an empty backfield, two tight-end set this year. 

[Warhorse]

Until proven that D Allen is back into form in a game or three, Fleener is our #1 TE, IMO. 

 

I find the idea of Coby being an expendable pawn.....head shaking and without any legitimate validity. 

[The Fish]

I'll go against the grain here (sorta)

 

There's some validity to thinking about contract situations, and who stays and goes, and how to stay ahead of the curve. Fleener might be a departing piece, but nothing on that front happens this year. 

[JPFolks]

I'll go against the grain here (sorta)

 

There's some validity to thinking about contract situations, and who stays and goes, and how to stay ahead of the curve. Fleener might be a departing piece, but nothing on that front happens this year. 

 

Not sure that is against the grain at all.  Why trade a good player who isn't injured and is performing well?  The only reason I could see is not enough money to sign TY, Fleener, Luck, Allen and whoever else is up for a contract at the same time.  Perhaps that might cause us o lose pieces we need.  Those giant QB contracts change everything which is why this might be as good as ANY year we'll have from an offensive/defensive talent lineup to win it all.  We have the schedule which puts the #1 seed in play.  We have a lot of young but not first year talent, we have two ALL TIME COLT talents still performing at the end of their careers.  

[AntonMcG]

Really?  You don't believe the Colts will EVER run an empty backfield formation? The variation would be two wide, two tights, and Richardson, who can be as effective as a slot in dump off, but I believe they'll line up in 5 receiver formations to overload the defense with 5 players who can't all be covered.  Sure, Luck has to get the ball out quickly, but should his line give him a snippet of time, how is anyone going to cover Nicks, Hilton, Wayne, Allen and Fleener, or if it is with a back, sub a receiver for Richardson and you still have 5 pass catchers you can't cover.  If you lose Fleener, that scenario (using Two Tight Ends with max receivers on a designed play) can't happen with a lesser third level TE.  

 

Additionally, why would we trade one of the top picks from the second round for a third rounder when he had been productive and on an upward trajectory talent wise?  Makes no sense unless the money simply isn't there to sign everyone.  They you'd still need to make a judgement between who remained healthy this year and produced with other receiving talent on the field at the level we will have this year.  

And... we'll see an empty backfield, two tight-end set this year. 

 

Yes really. How many times did you see if last year? I can't remember one.

 

Any time we went with an empty backfield it was Donald Brown who went in motion out wide.

 

If we do ever go empty backfield without an RB it will probably be with 4 WRs.

[NewEra]

No reason to trade him

[antipatriot]

Worst idea ever he has way to much upside and has just started to "get it" on the field he will be a superstar.

[jmac_48]

We didn't really get to see what Pep has in mind for a two TE attack, with Allen going down so early.

It has been shown in this league what two quality TE's can produce together, and what that opens up for other aspects of the O.

 

I'm excited to see what happens this year with a full complement of offensive weapons!

No need to diminish the potential here now, especially when it looks like we will have all our draft choices next year.

There is still plenty of time to deal with hard money choices coming in the next few years.

So why hamstring what is looking like a very powerful offense this year.

 

I just don't see letting solid talent go unless we get a whole lot more than a 3rd round choice.

 

(disclaimer, I am a Fleener fanboi)

[John Waylon]

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I see NOOO reason to trade a improving weapon until you know you can replace his skill set! And maybe not then!

[Chucklez]

maybe I missed something which is possible but I believe Allen is coming off hip surgery not an ACL tear.

Whoops did I say ACL? You are correct it was season ending hip surgery, but it was season ending none the less... Can't risk the TE depth and count solely on one guy who you can't be 100% about health wise.

[superrep1967]

 

I can see why you would want to keep him since he and Luck played at Stanford together. But my argument is more based on not enough balls to go around with the amount of weapons we have. And yes the secondary is very lacking right now since I don't expect Landry to be the pro bowler he once was.

 

Landry sucks

[superrep1967]

Not sure that is against the grain at all.  Why trade a good player who isn't injured and is performing well?  The only reason I could see is not enough money to sign TY, Fleener, Luck, Allen and whoever else is up for a contract at the same time.  Perhaps that might cause us o lose pieces we need.  Those giant QB contracts change everything which is why this might be as good as ANY year we'll have from an offensive/defensive talent lineup to win it all.  We have the schedule which puts the #1 seed in play.  We have a lot of young but not first year talent, we have two ALL TIME COLT talents still performing at the end of their careers.  

I totally agree!

[Coltswarriors]

Why would trade someone who improved drastically from his first year and only looks to get better?

 

Seems silly to me.

[JPFolks]

Yes really. How many times did you see if last year? I can't remember one.

 

Just for the sake of illustration, this one was easy to find and since you couldn't think of a single time we had an empty backfield last year, here you go.  Play #5.  And yes, it was 5 WR's. which I acknowledged would be one scenario, but I also believe we'll see an empty backfield formation with two TE's on the field during the season.  I couldn't find an actual record of formations for the season, but I felt I owed you at least one to demonstrate I am not imagining things.  

 

Here it is: http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/12/17/5217094/colts-tried-something-different-sunday-against-the-texans-the-shotgun

[AntonMcG]

Just for the sake of illustration, this one was easy to find and since you couldn't think of a single time we had an empty backfield last year, here you go.  Play #5.  And yes, it was 5 WR's. which I acknowledged would be one scenario, but I also believe we'll see an empty backfield formation with two TE's on the field during the season.  I couldn't find an actual record of formations for the season, but I felt I owed you at least one to demonstrate I am not imagining things.  

 

Here it is: http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/12/17/5217094/colts-tried-something-different-sunday-against-the-texans-the-shotgun

 

I never said we never had an empty backfield, I said we never had formation with 3 WRs and 2 TEs.

 

You seem so sure we will run this set, but you have no evidence to suggest so, so why deal in absolutes?

[jskinnz]

I never said we never had an empty backfield, I said we never had formation with 3 WRs and 2 TEs.

 

You seem so sure we will run this set, but you have no evidence to suggest so, so why deal in absolutes?

Personally I don't see them running that personnel grouping. It would seem far more likely to be 1TE and 1RB with 3 wides.

[gacker65]

Gotta scratch my head on this one....he perfectly fits the Pep Hamilton offense.  This is the first time we have had two GOOD healthy tight ends...

Fleener did not fit it in college. Fleener is a receiving type TE not a Blocking TE.  IMO, that makes him better in the type Offense like Peyton plays in , instead of a Power run Offense.

[gacker65]

How does someone not fit in an offense they've been in the most out of everyone on the team not named Whalen & Luck? So you're saying Coby has wasted the past like 3+ years of his life being in an offense he doesn't fit in? You better tweet him that he's wasting years he can't get back cause you seem to know he doesn't fit

Fleener is a pass receiving TE, not a blocking TE.  He was out of place even in college, IMO.

[gacker65]

what are you talking about? This is the scheme he ran in college that got him drafted after moving up the draft charts his senior year. He was also our second best receiving weapon in the offense last year after Wayne went down and came on to the scene after Pep brought this offense here, he fits it just fine and in fact seems to thrive in it, What Pep's offense likes is tightends. Based on that I think having two good ones for Pep's offense is a good idea. Tightends are special in that they don't have to get a tone of passes thrown their way to make an impact. There are other things they can do and still be of big value to your team. Also as we saw last year with injuries there is no such thing as too many weapons.

Fleener had trouble in college in this Offense.  Fleener is a Dallas Clark type TE (receiving) not a Dwayne Allen type (blocking and receiving).  Was my problem with Fleener when Fleener was drafted.

[braveheartcolt]

No

The shortest ever post to get a star rating? Nice work Jvan!

[TKnight24]

Fleener is a pass receiving TE, not a blocking TE. He was out of place even in college, IMO.

"Out of place"

Yet somehow was Andrew's #1 target. Only time you can say Fleener and the words "was out of place" is if you're the opposing defensive coordinator when he was gashing your secondary for big gains cause they were "out of place"

[GoColts8818]

Fleener had trouble in college in this Offense.  Fleener is a Dallas Clark type TE (receiving) not a Dwayne Allen type (blocking and receiving).  Was my problem with Fleener when Fleener was drafted.

Fleener has done just fine in this offense. The only offense he has struggled in was Arains which was a more vertical attacking offense which is the offense you are arguing he should be better in. Just because he can remind you of Dallas Clark doesn't mean he plays just like Dallas Clark.

[JPFolks]

Anton, Revise history all you want, but you replied to my statement: "Really? You don't believe the Colts will EVER run an empty backfield formation? The variation would be two wide, two tights, and Richardson, who can be as effective as a slot in dump off, but I believe they'll line up in 5 receiver formations to overload the defense with 5 players who can't all be covered."

 

Your Response was: "Yes really. How many times did you see if last year? I can't remember one."

 

You then expanded your thoughts about Donald Brown etc. So, I gave you an example of a time we ran an empty backfield. If you know of a resource to prove me wrong, please provide it. On the other hand, I did, in fact show you an example of us running an empty backfield. My PREDICTION for the coming year, having BOTH tight ends healthy and available, is that we will see them line up in two tight end set, and likely shift into an empty backfield with both tight ends on the field. Why you're so 100% positive it could and would NEVER happen seems a bit odd, but that's the hill you've decided to defend. I disagree. The world will go on.

[crazycolt1]

To me, this guy is the only guy who has decent trade value and can also be replaced. I think he could net us an early 3rd from a TE needy team, and I would be ok with that because of our depth at WR. Allen has shown to me to be Luck's favorite TE in the pros, and if young players like Moncrief and Da'rick Rogers pan out we are loaded at WR since I expect us to resign either Wayne or Nicks next offseason.

 

We could easily use that extra 3rd to get us some defensive help which we need especially in the secondary. I would wait until we know Allen will be fully healthy for the regular season, and then see if a team bites on Fleener.

Please step away from your keyboard. If the value of Fleener needs to be explained to you I am sorry to inform you that your Colts knowledge needs a serious upgrade.

[CanuckColt]

I see NOOO reason to trade a improving weapon until you know you can replace his skill set! And maybe not then!

Yeah, we need to keep Fleener until we have a TE just as good or better...maybe Swoope will turn into another good receiving TE, then we think about it.

[rittdk01]

He made a huge leap from a rookie season that was uneven at best and really came into his own in 2013.  Fleener was injured his rookie year and Allen obviously played in only one game last year.  Who backs them up Saunders?  Come on u don't really want that do u?  Fleener plays like an extra wr  Allen plays more like a traditional te and was great in 2012.  I want to see both of them and the wide receivers making it a nightmare to defend against.

 

This thread should have been posted last year : )

[gacker65]

Fleener has done just fine in this offense. The only offense he has struggled in was Arains which was a more vertical attacking offense which is the offense you are arguing he should be better in. Just because he can remind you of Dallas Clark doesn't mean he plays just like Dallas Clark.

You maybe partially correct. Again, IMO, he has not exactly had a Pro Bowl in this one either and he has trouble blocking during running plays.

[gacker65]

"Out of place"

Yet somehow was Andrew's #1 target. Only time you can say Fleener and the words "was out of place" is if you're the opposing defensive coordinator when he was gashing your secondary for big gains cause they were "out of place"

First, he was not gashing anything.  Secondly, IMO, Fleener s a receiving TE, more suited for a pass first Offense.

[BrentMc11]

Fleener did not fit it in college. Fleener is a receiving type TE not a Blocking TE.  IMO, that makes him better in the type Offense like Peyton plays in , instead of a Power run Offense.

 

You maybe partially correct. Again, IMO, he has not exactly had a Pro Bowl in this one either and he has trouble blocking during running plays.

I disagree with both posts Gacker.  Sorry, I usually agree with a lot of your posts.  If he was not a 'fit' at Stanford, he would not have ended up here early in the second round of his draft ahead of Allen.  As we know so many outlets had Allen as the best TE in the draft.

 

Secondly he DID suck at blocking when he first arrived at camp and flat out got run over in one on one drills...one of the worst I have ever seen to be honest.  However, he has improved his blocking 10 fold in his 2 years, and is in NO way a liability anymore.      !!!