Hear me out regarding Pass Rush

[Indeee]

I understand to some this may be a stupid post, however it is serious in it's intent and involves an interesting dynamic where coaching and player development are concerned.

 

I'm going to list 2 known pass rushers whom have had success in the nfl so far along side their measurable of weight and height

 

Von Miller: 6'3 250

J. Clowney: 6'5 270

 

In comparison I'm now going to list 2 players currently on Colts rosters, who have been experimented with for a couple years now. One player has been here for a couple years and the other is a newer addition. I'm also going to list their measurable in comparison to the 2 players listed above.

 

Eric Swoope: 6'5 258 ( previous basketball player )

Ross Travis: 6'7 235 ( previous basketball player )

 

Both players have Basketball ability where their positioning have been big man oriented. Fighting for positioning, rebounding etc. Body on body contact

Both are in height qualifications especially when playing from a standing position where wing span comes into play not only for batting down passes but also reachability to grasp defenders.

 

Travis would need to bulk up and add weight/muscle which should not take much

 

My question is this: Why hasn't anyone ever thought to potentially teach, coach, transform these 2 guys into pass rushers?

 

It just seems odd, that in a league where pass rushers are not really accessible that some teams would attempt to take players blessed with measurable and transform them. it happens with other positions sometimes, why can't the colts staff transform these 2 into outside LB assets? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ColtJ82]

This should go well

[indyagent17]

Its hard enough to convert players across the line in college but its much harder in the NFL

[Fluke_33]

I know i read somewhere of a 6'7 WR in college that has converted to pass rusher and is now considered a possible first rounder but i would think/hope the people in the know are using the above players at their best ability/position

[Fluke_33]

marcus davenport is the guy i read about.

[Fisticuffs111]

I'm not and have never been a coach but I'll give an attempt. Coming from basketball their best ability is just too tailer made for TE's. Like you mentioned, catching the ball, footwork, positioning.

It'd be much harder to learn the skills, usually from scratch, necessary to be an elite let alone skilled pass rusher. The athleticism is there but there's just so much more that goes into it that they'd have to learn. Hand fighting, pass rush moves, bend, etc. Plus it's just a different level of physicality being a pass rusher that I think a lot of them would struggle to get used to.

[King Colt]

Ross Travis TE success in red zone situations against 5'11" secondary defenders.

[Valpo2004]

1 hour ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I'm not and have never been a coach but I'll give an attempt. Coming from basketball they're best ability is just too tailer made for TE's. Like you mentioned, catching the ball, footwork, positioning.

It'd be much harder to learn the skills, usually from scratch, necessary to be an elite let alone skilled pass rusher. The athleticism is there but there's just so much more that goes into it that they'd have to learn. Plus it's just a different level of physicality being a pass rusher that I think a lot of them would struggle to get used to.

 

The physicality is something that came to mind as well.  In basketball you are pretty limited in your physicality during that whole positioning battle.  That limitation is a lot closer with the limitations on a defensive back before the ball is caught.  He can't push you or pull your arm and stuff like that.  The limitations and rules there are extremely close to the physicality in the post in basketball. 

 

On the line it's a whole different ball game, far more physical.  Direct pushing isn't allowed downfield during a pass or under the basket in basketball.  But direct pushing is what OL do for a living.  The only thing they can't do is push their hands into your face or hold you.  

 

Then you have other things you have to teach.  Like tackling and trying to strip the ball.  Nothing a basketball player has ever done is going to prepare him for learning proper form in wrapping up and tackling and trying to strip the ball while doing this.  Plus the pass rush moves which I've heard can take a long time to get the hang of.  

 

There is a lot less to teach with playing TE that a basketball player doesn't already know how to do.  They would presumably know how to catch.  So you teach route running and making sharp cuts and maybe some blocking.  And they might even know how to make sharp cuts.  But you can even take a shortcut around the blocking.  Most basketball players turned TE's are receiving TE's who arn't very good at blocking.  In fact Jimmy Graham is famously horrible at blocking.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

4 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Ross Travis TE success in red zone situations against 5'11" secondary defenders.

With all due respect that wasn't the question.

[DougDew]

There is a difference between athleticism and explosiveness.  I assume coaches have tried to convert basketball players and offensive players into pass rushers, but explosive twitch is probably a natural thing.

 

I'd think a tall 3rd baseman might have the natural cat-quickness over a basketball player.  But that would be a huge conversion.

[UKColt13]

This isn’t Madden.

[Dingus McGirt]

Enjoyed the discussion.  Thanks for the post, OP.

[loudnproudcolt]

The art of being able to use your hands and leverage is so important. Tough to teach.

[tvturner]

Ah yes!

Ross Travis, the pass rusher as good as Von Miller.

[shasta519]

5 hours ago, Boomstick1 said:

Ah yes!

Ross Travis, the pass rusher as good as Von Miller.

 

It's the coaching staff holding him back /s

[zibby43]

No harm in asking, OP.  But to answer your question . . .

 

Aside from franchise QBs, elite pass rushers, the guys that get after opposing franchise QBs, are the second most important players in the NFL.

 

Good ones pretty much never hit the market as FAs, unless they're getting on in age or their teams can't afford them.

 

Among the 25 highest contracts being paid to NFL players, 10 are quarterbacks and nine are pass-rushing specialists.

 

If it were easy to convert athletic bodies to pass rushers, they wouldn't be the rare, highly-paid, extremely-coveted assets that they are.

 

 

 

[IinD]

I'm inspired to quit my job and go into astronaut training. It's doable I guess.

[P'Son]

Couldn't do any worse than the group we have.  I'd take a shot at it.

[a06cc]

Nah Mingo is coming along in this defense. We only need to snag one pass rusher via FA or draft. It would take even longer to develop them on defense. 

[NewColtsFan]

13 hours ago, Indeee said:

I understand to some this may be a stupid post, however it is serious in it's intent and involves an interesting dynamic where coaching and player development are concerned.

 

I'm going to list 2 known pass rushers whom have had success in the nfl so far along side their measurable of weight and height

 

Von Miller: 6'3 250

J. Clowney: 6'5 270

 

In comparison I'm now going to list 2 players currently on Colts rosters, who have been experimented with for a couple years now. One player has been here for a couple years and the other is a newer addition. I'm also going to list their measurable in comparison to the 2 players listed above.

 

Eric Swoope: 6'5 258 ( previous basketball player )

Ross Travis: 6'7 235 ( previous basketball player )

 

Both players have Basketball ability where their positioning have been big man oriented. Fighting for positioning, rebounding etc. Body on body contact

Both are in height qualifications especially when playing from a standing position where wing span comes into play not only for batting down passes but also reachability to grasp defenders.

 

Travis would need to bulk up and add weight/muscle which should not take much

 

My question is this: Why hasn't anyone ever thought to potentially teach, coach, transform these 2 guys into pass rushers?

 

It just seems odd, that in a league where pass rushers are not really accessible that some teams would attempt to take players blessed with measurable and transform them. it happens with other positions sometimes, why can't the colts staff transform these 2 into outside LB assets? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Defense and offense....

 

Two entirely different mind sets...

 

Defense you want to blow things up...   destroy the play.   Create havoc.    

 

But with offense you want to be precise.  Run X numbers of steps.   Make hard cut at 90 degree angle and make catch.   If defense is taking away that route, it is changed to something else...  something specific.

 

These guys are still being taught the position they prefer.   Too early to know what we have...   but probably too early to give up on for offense.    

 

Patience is not always easy...   but patience is what is needed here.   Maybe a year or two down the road you get your wish and they get looked at on defense...

 

[GoColts8818]

I am sure if the coaches thought a guy like Swoope would make a good pass rusher they would have made him one when he was signed rather than a tightend.  Remember he was a basketball player in college.  The Colts made him a tight end because they felt that was the best way to use his skill set.

[CR91]

Here is a crazy idea and Im just spitballing here, how about getting players that are actually pass rushers 

[LockeDown]

Seems like some  teams have tried your concept with international rugby players as OLBs and ERs.  They have strength and explosiveness, but I can't think of any that have made that jump successfully. I like the idea though. 

[Ne-Ca-Higher]

Would you trade a healthy Andrew Luck straight up for last year's consensus no. 1 pick Myles Garrett?  Would the Colts have won more games with a healthy Andrew starting all year or with Garrett?  My point is that QB is so much more important than the second most important position -- arguably DE -- that the Colts would be wise to draft one of the top QB prospects in the draft with their top pick.

 

We all hope never to have another pick this high, and Jacoby hasn't convinced me he's a franchise guy.   Drafting Darnold, Rosen or Allen and bringing him along slowly behind Jacoby may pay huge dividends.  If Andrew comes back in fine form, great.  Then we may have his eventual replacement in the fold, a QB that's a better prospect than anything we're likely to get with mid-round picks down the road.  It would free us up to trade Andrew in a few years while he's still worth a lot in return.  How wrong can you go by drafting a top prospect who plays the most important position on a pro football team?  We'll have picks near the top of every round in the 2018 draft and dollars in free agency to fill as many other needs as possible.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

Would you trade a healthy Andrew Luck straight up for last year's consensus no. 1 pick Myles Garrett?  Would the Colts have won more games with a healthy Andrew starting all year or with Garrett?  My point is that QB is so much more important than the second most important position -- arguably DE -- that the Colts would be wise to draft one of the top QB prospects in the draft with their top pick.

 

We all hope never to have another pick this high, and Jacoby hasn't convinced me he's a franchise guy.   Drafting Darnold, Rosen or Allen and bringing him along slowly behind Jacoby may pay huge dividends.  If Andrew comes back in fine form, great.  Then we may have his eventual replacement in the fold, a QB that's a better prospect than anything we're likely to get with mid-round picks down the road.  It would free us up to trade Andrew in a few years while he's still worth a lot in return.  How wrong can you go by drafting a top prospect who plays the most important position on a pro football team?  We'll have picks near the top of every round in the 2018 draft and dollars in free agency to fill as many other needs as possible.

Everyone in the media was saying how Great Myles Garrett was, he was the next Reggie White. Browns are 0-15 so there is that.

[DaColts85]

45 minutes ago, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

We all hope never to have another pick this high, and Jacoby hasn't convinced me he's a franchise guy.   Drafting Darnold, Rosen or Allen and bringing him along slowly behind Jacoby may pay huge dividends.  If Andrew comes back in fine form, great.  Then we may have his eventual replacement in the fold, a QB that's a better prospect than anything we're likely to get with mid-round picks down the road.  It would free us up to trade Andrew in a few years while he's still worth a lot in return.  How wrong can you go by drafting a top prospect who plays the most important position on a pro football team?  We'll have picks near the top of every round in the 2018 draft and dollars in free agency to fill as many other needs as possible.

So you are saying that if Luck is fine we should still draft a QB in the first round so that they can sit behind Luck and then eventually we can trade luck..?  This is what I am gathering from your statement.  I hope I am wrong as this is a terrible statement but you never know.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Just No, to much time on your hands!

[Buddy Lee]

On 12/27/2017 at 9:55 AM, Indeee said:

I understand to some this may be a stupid post, however it is serious in it's intent and involves an interesting dynamic where coaching and player development are concerned.

 

I'm going to list 2 known pass rushers whom have had success in the nfl so far along side their measurable of weight and height

 

Von Miller: 6'3 250

J. Clowney: 6'5 270

 

In comparison I'm now going to list 2 players currently on Colts rosters, who have been experimented with for a couple years now. One player has been here for a couple years and the other is a newer addition. I'm also going to list their measurable in comparison to the 2 players listed above.

 

Eric Swoope: 6'5 258 ( previous basketball player )

Ross Travis: 6'7 235 ( previous basketball player )

 

Both players have Basketball ability where their positioning have been big man oriented. Fighting for positioning, rebounding etc. Body on body contact

Both are in height qualifications especially when playing from a standing position where wing span comes into play not only for batting down passes but also reachability to grasp defenders.

 

Travis would need to bulk up and add weight/muscle which should not take much

 

My question is this: Why hasn't anyone ever thought to potentially teach, coach, transform these 2 guys into pass rushers?

 

It just seems odd, that in a league where pass rushers are not really accessible that some teams would attempt to take players blessed with measurable and transform them. it happens with other positions sometimes, why can't the colts staff transform these 2 into outside LB assets? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your idea has merit. Perhaps Jack of all trades (McAfee, not me) could play two ways. Kidding of course. But not kidding about your idea. These pass rushers are very difficult to come by.

[Luck 4 president]

Why don’t we get a baseball pitcher and turn him into a franchise quarterback? 

[Coltfreak]

On 12/27/2017 at 9:55 AM, Indeee said:

I understand to some this may be a stupid post, however it is serious in it's intent and involves an interesting dynamic where coaching and player development are concerned.

 

I'm going to list 2 known pass rushers whom have had success in the nfl so far along side their measurable of weight and height

 

Von Miller: 6'3 250

J. Clowney: 6'5 270

 

In comparison I'm now going to list 2 players currently on Colts rosters, who have been experimented with for a couple years now. One player has been here for a couple years and the other is a newer addition. I'm also going to list their measurable in comparison to the 2 players listed above.

 

Eric Swoope: 6'5 258 ( previous basketball player )

Ross Travis: 6'7 235 ( previous basketball player )

 

Both players have Basketball ability where their positioning have been big man oriented. Fighting for positioning, rebounding etc. Body on body contact

Both are in height qualifications especially when playing from a standing position where wing span comes into play not only for batting down passes but also reachability to grasp defenders.

 

Travis would need to bulk up and add weight/muscle which should not take much

 

My question is this: Why hasn't anyone ever thought to potentially teach, coach, transform these 2 guys into pass rushers?

 

It just seems odd, that in a league where pass rushers are not really accessible that some teams would attempt to take players blessed with measurable and transform them. it happens with other positions sometimes, why can't the colts staff transform these 2 into outside LB assets? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is * foolish 

[Coltfreak]

Just now, Coltfreak said:

This is * foolish 

For the record I didnt t say foolish 

[Indeee]

8 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

Why don’t we get a baseball pitcher and turn him into a franchise quarterback? 

Seattle already did

[rock8591]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:58 AM, crazycolt1 said:

With all due respect that wasn't the question.

 

With all respect, that was the best answer.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, rock8591 said:

 

With all respect, that was the best answer.

Maybe not. The question is could he be converted? If so a TE is easier to find than a pass rusher.

[Ne-Ca-Higher]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:45 AM, DaColts85 said:

So you are saying that if Luck is fine we should still draft a QB in the first round so that they can sit behind Luck and then eventually we can trade luck..?  This is what I am gathering from your statement.  I hope I am wrong as this is a terrible statement but you never know.

Yes!  I absolutely mean it.  If Andrew comes back and isn't the same, then we have Darnold, Rosen, Allen, whomever.  If Andrew comes back and is great, then I locked up his eventual replacement -- like Garapalo should've been for Brady.  We will not get a QB prospect as good as Darnold or Rosen by drafting down the road where we usually do.

 

Unfortunately, come draft time, we won't know if Luck will be his usual self.  We saw the downside of playing without a good QB this year.  I like to hedge my bets, especially when it involves the most important player on the field.

 

You would draft Chubb or Barkley instead, right?  I already demonstrated how Garrett wouldn't have made enough of a difference -- unless you are pretty sure that (sight unseen) Andrew will be his old self.  Barkley would be hard for me to pass up, but I can do so because I like Mack.  Few running backs were taken in round 1 in the last 10 years, and one of them was Richardson!  Use our high 2nd rounder -- almost a first round pick -- to get a difference maker.   There are no superstar left offensive tackles in this draft, and we have a good center, so drafting o-line in round 1 or early round 2 wouldn't make sense.  Use our middle round picks and free agency to get linemen and linebackers.  We picked up Hankins, Sheard and Simon that way with good result.  Without all the injuries, our defense would've been fine.  The next coaching regime, especially if it's Vrabel, may improve the defense even more.

 

Go back and look at Colts' recent first rounders (including Richardson) to judge whether Chubb and Barkley are can't miss players.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:32 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Defense and offense....

 

Two entirely different mind sets...

 

Defense you want to blow things up...   destroy the play.   Create havoc.    

 

But with offense you want to be precise.  Run X numbers of steps.   Make hard cut at 90 degree angle and make catch.   If defense is taking away that route, it is changed to something else...  something specific.

 

These guys are still being taught the position they prefer.   Too early to know what we have...   but probably too early to give up on for offense.    

 

Patience is not always easy...   but patience is what is needed here.   Maybe a year or two down the road you get your wish and they get looked at on defense...

 

 

Yeah it's two very different mentalities.  Two very different ideas of "fun".

 

The TE is usually one of the happy-go-lucky guys out there having fun knocking people around and catching TDs.

 

You have to be a killer as a pass-rusher because you're trying to kill the play by attacking whoever has the ball.  It's a predatory mode-of-mind.  It's not fun until you have the QB on the ground and the ball in your hands.

 

Having said that, if Swoope or Travis went to a defensive coach and asked for a shot at rushing the passer just for a chance to stay on the team somehow... maybe possibly because pass-rushers coincidentally get paid so much...

 

Heck yeah let's train 'em up.  Former TEs would probably have great insight on what the offense is doing on a given play.  And I could see their basketball skills coming in especially handy when mush-rushing a mobile QB and getting your hands up to try to swat a pass.  

[Lucky Colts Fan]

40 minutes ago, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

If Andrew comes back and is great, then I locked up his eventual replacement -- like Garapalo should've been for Brady.

 

???  His eventual replacement is going to be his eventual replacement for the next decade if Luck comes back and is great...  #3 pick for a 10-yr backup???  That's highway robbery.  You should be locked up.

[DaveA1102]

Thanks for the post @Indeee.  It is an interesting idea and, having read the OP I did wonder what the reason was myself, while assuming there was an obvious reason I was missing!  

 

Its frustrating sometimes to see when a question is asked, out of interest and as a point for discussion, it can be derided and dismissed on here.  Admittedly some posts do cross the line and some are just trolling, but this was not one of them.

 

Thanks to @Fisticuffs111, @Valpo2004, @zibby43, @NewColtsFan, @Lucky Colts Fan and others for thought out responses, which I enjoyed reading.

[PureGold]

No need to go that far at all. Just draft Arden Key. He's the defensive piece we need. In my opinion he jumps off film at you. I would take him over Chubb but would rather draft both players... Arden Key and Chubb together would impact the game and nfl like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney did together... Scary duo

[DaColts85]

1 hour ago, Ne-Ca-Higher said:

Yes!  I absolutely mean it.  If Andrew comes back and isn't the same, then we have Darnold, Rosen, Allen, whomever.  If Andrew comes back and is great, then I locked up his eventual replacement -- like Garapalo should've been for Brady.  We will not get a QB prospect as good as Darnold or Rosen by drafting down the road where we usually do.

 

Unfortunately, come draft time, we won't know if Luck will be his usual self.  We saw the downside of playing without a good QB this year.  I like to hedge my bets, especially when it involves the most important player on the field.

 

You would draft Chubb or Barkley instead, right?  I already demonstrated how Garrett wouldn't have made enough of a difference -- unless you are pretty sure that (sight unseen) Andrew will be his old self.  Barkley would be hard for me to pass up, but I can do so because I like Mack.  Few running backs were taken in round 1 in the last 10 years, and one of them was Richardson!  Use our high 2nd rounder -- almost a first round pick -- to get a difference maker.   There are no superstar left offensive tackles in this draft, and we have a good center, so drafting o-line in round 1 or early round 2 wouldn't make sense.  Use our middle round picks and free agency to get linemen and linebackers.  We picked up Hankins, Sheard and Simon that way with good result.  Without all the injuries, our defense would've been fine.  The next coaching regime, especially if it's Vrabel, may improve the defense even more.

 

Go back and look at Colts' recent first rounders (including Richardson) to judge whether Chubb and Barkley are can't miss players.

I can see some of your points with players or positions to draft.  I have never mentioned either of those names but would be fine with either.  I would still prefer to trade back personally.  You have the 3rd overall pick and if you waste it on a "potential" solid QB (nothing is guaranteed with either of them at all) then you have wasted an early pick in my eyes.  You roll the dice with what you have, little reason to think Luck won't play.  If you draft one and Luck comes back and your backup #3 pick never plays then what?  You would probably think that some team gives you the boat for them right?  Not exactly realistic but possible.  Would you get a comparison pick?  Waste the #3 and what hope to get an early pick next year from this wasted pick?  You could in turn trade down and get good talent, or get someone like Chubb or Barkley.  Both would help along with many other names.  You say there are not top LT's in the draft but yet after the combine and pro day I bet either you change your mind or you will be wrong.  Either way I would trust the scouts who have said many good things about linemen in the draft this year along with Chubb and Barkley.

 

Now your comment about wasting picks on linemen in the first round or even early second.  That to me again is a terrible comment.  You would have a higher potential success rate getting the top talent in any position.  So saying it is a waste and we should wait until the mid-rounds...I would say you have a shot with any player you draft, but the chances are higher with an earlier pick.

 

There are many options we could do and I am sure they will have a good idea on Luck by the draft.  If he has not thrown the ball consistently be the end of April that is clearly a red flag.