Colts Trade for Wentz (details in first post)

[EastStreet]

40 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

I’m kind of on the opposite page now. I’m all for letting Frank call the plays because if it doesn’t work out then there’s no conjecture or posturing about what the problem is. These two guys are supposed to be the equivalent of peanut butter and jelly, so I want to give them the full floor to show us what they can do. If we find out that sandwich isn’t as good as advertised later on then maybe we’ll put a slice of cheese on it and see if that makes it any better. 

The only year they were peanut and jelly, is when Reich wasn't calling plays.... just saying.

[EastStreet]

32 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

yes...but, Wentz is far from being a rook.

No, but there have been numerous pieces on how Wentz's footwork and everything else went to hell the last couple years, and was just plain awful last year. I'm guessing Reich goes back to 101 stuff with him. He's not a rook, but he's a young QB that needs some rook focus on fundamentals. 

[WoolMagnet]

1 hour ago, Pelt said:

I'll have to Google that, but 

When he came in the league, i think the media gave her as much air-time.

  The “spin” was kinda “who care if he can play, have you seen his wife?”

[BC215]

The Philly Athletic Eagles guys are discussing the trade now if you're interested. It's still live so you can rewind to the beginning or watch it when it is over. They've discussed it from the Colts perspective and gave some thoughts on what he might do going forward.

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

26 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Oh yeah. I’ll never understand how he still has a job. I just can’t pin this one on him, though. The only alternative was way worse. And I mean even the Wentz contract had to get approval from Laurie, so he can’t even take the fall based on that. Laurie seemed to really covet Wentz. Firing Pederson was his way of trying to make good with Wentz. I’ll never believe anything otherwise. I just can’t fault Roseman at all in this one. He played the hand he was dealt. 

 

Sorry, I'm confused with this post?

 

Your first sentence says "I'll never understand how he still has a job"    That was in response to a comment about Roseman.

 

But your next to last sentence says "I just can't fault Roseman at all in this one."

 

Are we talking about the same guy?    Because those two views are the opposite of one another.

 

What am I not understanding here? 

 

[IndyEric07]

53 minutes ago, Restored said:

 

Well the Texans also managed to screw up their organization so badly that their franchise QB isn't going to play for them anymore.

Yea, but we may have to play Christian McCaffery twice a year according to recent trade rumors!

[Boondoggle]

Re: the 25% of snaps don't worry Wentz gets dinged up.  That may take care of itself.

 

If he doesn't play well Reich knows he's going to bench him.  That's not the worst thing either.  In fact I believe it to be a good thing.

 

I am curious to hear whether the job will be open competition.  Have to think it will be.  If Wentz cannot beat out Eason in a competition then he certainly doesn't need to cost that first round pick.

[John Waylon]

28 minutes ago, superrep1967 said:

Do you mean Lurie? I'm confused

I don’t even fight my spellcheck on it. I have to do it so many times and I just keep on trucking these days. He is who she is. Or the other way around. Or whatever.  

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, Boondoggle said:

Re: the 25% of snaps don't worry Wentz gets dinged up.  That may take care of itself.

 

If he doesn't play well Reich knows he's going to bench him.  That's not the worst thing either.  In fact I believe it to be a good thing.

 

I am curious to hear whether the job will be open competition.  Have to think it will be.  If Wentz cannot beat out Eason in a competition then he certainly doesn't need to cost that first round pick.

No , the job will obviously not be an open competition.   Good lord

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, Boondoggle said:

Re: the 25% of snaps don't worry Wentz gets dinged up.  That may take care of itself.

 

If he doesn't play well Reich knows he's going to bench him.  That's not the worst thing either.  In fact I believe it to be a good thing.

 

I am curious to hear whether the job will be open competition.  Have to think it will be.  If Wentz cannot beat out Eason in a competition then he certainly doesn't need to cost that first round pick.

 

I think Wentz would have to be a complete and total bomb to be benched by Reich.   I don't think being even a bit of a disappointment would get Wentz benched.    He'd have to be a complete disaster.   Because benching would break complete trust that the two have.    If Wentz thought Reich was making him the scapegoat,  and was benched unfairly,  that would be Philly revisited.    

 

Reich has two full years to get Wentz right.    It's in everyone's interest to make it happen.   So Wentz is going to get a long leash.   Maybe the longest leash.   He'll get the benefit of the doubt.   No tossing under the bus.   Reich can't be seen as a guy looking to protect a possible upgrade to a first round draft pick at the expense of helping his future QB.    The optics would be disastrous.  

 

We should all hope and expect that the final price of the deal to be a 1 and a 3.   That's what we should all want.  We're all hoping Wentz exceeds the price.    And if he's as good as Reich/Ballard think he can be,  then he'll easily be worth the cost.

[John Waylon]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry, I'm confused with this post?

 

Your first sentence says "I'll never understand how he still has a job"    That was in response to a comment about Roseman.

 

But your next to last sentence says "I just can't fault Roseman at all in this one."

 

Are we talking about the same guy?    Because those two views are the opposite of one another.

 

What am I not understanding here? 

 

He should have been fired long ago. 
 

But from the time Laurie fired Pederson and that still didn’t fix the Wentz issue, what has Roseman done that has made anything worse?

 

Wentz still wants traded. He can’t fix that, and that started over his head. 
 

He finally has to throw in the towel and trade him to us for the package they did because not only was it the best offer they got, we now know it was the only one they got. 
 

Again, how is that Roseman’s fault? How has he made this situation worse?

 

He hasn’t. He was served a plate full of % on this whole thing, and the only thing he could do was eat it as fast as they could shovel it in. And to his credit he did.  
 

So does he deserve any of the blame for this trade? No. His only other option was to try to keep Wentz and pay the full bill, or release him and still foot a nice portion and get nothing in return. 
 

He shouldn’t still have a job. But on the list of his crimes this one doesn’t even make into the “honorable mentions”. 

[csmopar]

40 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

I believe it is 33M

I know what it is, I’m asking how does that affect the cap hit for Wentz for the Colts. The eagles are stuck with that dead hit

[Sumo63]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

The only year they were peanut and jelly, is when Reich wasn't calling plays.... just saying.

To be fair, Reich wasnt calling plays the year he was trash either.

 

I hear you, but with what Ballard gave up this is a low risk vs high reward proposition.  I think we can afford to be optimistic about it.  Especially before Wentz has even put on the uniform.  Heck, technically he doesnt even have a # yet, much less an official announcement.  If it bottoms out all it really cost us was time and maybe a HC.....

[luv_pony_express]

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think it's a great deal for Roseman. He got a 1st round pick out of Wentz. OR he gets a 2nd round pick for Wentz in the event that it doesn't work out for the Colts. It can be both a good deal for both teams.

Well, I’m not sure I’d say it’s ever a “great deal” for a GM to be dealing his former #2 overall pick that he traded up to get and who they had recently signed to a 4 year, $130M contract in exchange for a 3rd rounder and a future 2nd/1st rounder.

 

I might say it was the best he could do under the circumstances.

[coming on strong]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

I know what it is, I’m asking how does that affect the cap hit for Wentz for the Colts. The eagles are stuck with that dead hit

colts are paying wentz 25 million a year same as rivers last year .  they can get wentz after 2 years and lose no money

[PrincetonTiger]

11 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I know what it is, I’m asking how does that affect the cap hit for Wentz for the Colts. The eagles are stuck with that dead hit

It is on the first few pages and is about the same as PR

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

He should have been fired long ago. 
 

But from the time Laurie fired Pederson and that still didn’t fix the Wentz issue, what has Roseman done that has made anything worse?

 

Wentz still wants traded. He can’t fix that, and that started over his head. 
 

He finally has to throw in the towel and trade him to us for the package they did because not only was it the best offer they got, we now know it was the only one they got. 
 

Again, how is that Roseman’s fault? How has he made this situation worse?

 

He hasn’t. He was served a plate full of % on this whole thing, and the only thing he could do was eat it as fast as they could shovel it in. And to his credit he did.  
 

So does he deserve any of the blame for this trade? No. His only other option was to try to keep Wentz and pay the full bill, or release him and still foot a nice portion and get nothing in return. 
 

He shouldn’t still have a job. But on the list of his crimes this one doesn’t even make into the “honorable mentions”. 

 

I mostly agree with you.    Mostly.

 

But to answer your question about "how does he have a job?"    The simple straight forward answer is....   they won a Super Bowl in 2017.    That buys you great credibility.    That buys you extra years to figure out new problems that another GM might not have been given.   

 

So, it's been 18, 19 and 20.   I don't think they'll get too much time to turn things around.   But if the owner let them hire Sirianni,  then they've got to give Roseman at least two years to see what happens with Hurts and the rest of the team,  wouldn't you think?    At least?

 

Things are a mess in Philly right now.   The job right now is clean-up and improve.  In Philly that's not easy.  The seat is hot.  But I think he gets more time to figure things out.   The only question is....   how much more time?  

 

[Zoltan]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I mostly agree with you.    Mostly.

 

But to answer your question about "how does he have a job?"    The simple straight forward answer is....   they won a Super Bowl in 2017.    That buys you great credibility.    That buys you extra years to figure out new problems that another GM might not have been given.   

 

So, it's been 18, 19 and 20.   I don't think they'll get too much time to turn things around.   But if the owner let them hire Sirianni,  then they've got to give Roseman at least two years to see what happens with Hurts and the rest of the team,  wouldn't you think?    At least?

 

Things are a mess in Philly right now.   The job right now is clean-up and improve.  In Philly that's not easy.  The seat is hot.  But I think he gets more time to figure things out.   The only question is....   how much more time?  

 

Roseman is definitely an outlier when it comes to GMs he’s fired 3 head coaches (Reid, Kelly, Pederson) since he became GM and now has hired 3 head coaches (Kelly,Pederson,Sirianni). 
 

Most GMs don’t survive 1 hire and firing. 

[presto123]

Colts attitude: "Get out there and rock and roll the bones....get busy"

 

                               Neil Peart

 

Rollin the bones indeed. Hope it pans out!

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

Roseman is definitely an outlier when it comes to GMs he’s fired 3 head coaches (Reid, Kelly, Pederson) since he became GM and now has hired 3 head coaches (Kelly,Pederson,Sirianni). 
 

Most GMs don’t survive 1 hire and firing. 

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

Roseman is definitely an outlier when it comes to GMs he’s fired 3 head coaches (Reid, Kelly, Pederson) since he became GM and now has hired 3 head coaches (Kelly,Pederson,Sirianni). 
 

Most GMs don’t survive 1 hire and firing. 

 

Good post.    Fair points.    Good observations.

 

Appreciate that.   I was mostly,  but not fully aware of this.

 

I'd guess that means he has a GREAT reputation with the owner.   

 

For what it's worth,  I think Ballard has a GREAT reputation with Irsay.   I think that buys him a LOT of leeway.

 

 

[Chucklez]

2 hours ago, Pelt said:

Do we?

 

I don't think we're Super Bowl caliber.

Oh ye of like faith

[dw49]

4 hours ago, RNGDShobby said:

15m of his 2022 contract becomes guaranteed this year. so we'll be on the hook for that regardless.

 

that looks to be the case. 

[BluesGirl]

1 hour ago, cptcomeback said:

Skeptical on Frank calling plays tbh, and skeptical on CW.    

Fair enough.   As long as you can come back and admit you were wrong if they all work well together.

 

I know I will if Im wrong 

 

BTW do you have a Harbaugh jersey?    Loved him 

[John Waylon]

15 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I mostly agree with you.    Mostly.

 

But to answer your question about "how does he have a job?"    The simple straight forward answer is....   they won a Super Bowl in 2017.    That buys you great credibility.    That buys you extra years to figure out new problems that another GM might not have been given.   

 

So, it's been 18, 19 and 20.   I don't think they'll get too much time to turn things around.   But if the owner let them hire Sirianni,  then they've got to give Roseman at least two years to see what happens with Hurts and the rest of the team,  wouldn't you think?    At least?

 

Things are a mess in Philly right now.   The job right now is clean-up and improve.  In Philly that's not easy.  The seat is hot.  But I think he gets more time to figure things out.   The only question is....   how much more time?  

 

I’m sure that depends on how much Laurie feels Roseman is to blame that Wentz is gone. If he feels like he shares a lot of the blame for it he’s gonna be on a shorter leash. 
 

But if he feels like Pederson shares more blame for him wanting to leave then he probably does get more time yet. 

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, BluesGirl said:

I think you look at Wentz superbowl season and see what they did with him since most of the coaches will now be surrounding him.    Pedersen called the plays but then again Reich new the good and bad of those plays.   So maybe some adjustments to be made with the whole new brain trust     

 

I think Frank will be fine calling plays.  Maybe even more so now that he has the QB he needs to pull it off  Just my opinion

It'll be interesting. Neither Frank, or Wentz, will have excuses anymore. My only fear is extended mediocrity. 

[IanColts22]

I’m happy to get Wentz.  Scared that he won’t pan out and how long do we give Wentz the reins to the offense for before we pull him if he does bad if?  I mean does he get the Rookie QB treatment where he can mess up as much as he wants as long as he shows that he can move on from those mistakes and do better?  The last time the COLTS made a Trade for a high profile pick was wait for it the rolling ball of knives remember.  He ended up to be the rolling ball that can’t find daylight.  And for some reason the less daylight he found on the field the more he ate off the field cause man that dude gain a lot of weight.  Praying doesn’t trade doesn’t make us look like *s end the end just like Trent rolling ball Richardson

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, IanColts22 said:

I’m happy to get Wentz.  Scared that he won’t pan out and how long do we give Wentz the reins to the offense for before we pull him if he does bad if?  I mean does he get the Rookie QB treatment where he can mess up as much as he wants as long as he shows that he can move on from those mistakes and do better?  The last time the COLTS made a Trade for a high profile pick was wait for it the rolling ball of knives remember.  He ended up to be the rolling ball that can’t find daylight.  And for some reason the less daylight he found on the field the more he ate off the field cause man that dude gain a lot of weight.  Praying doesn’t trade doesn’t make us look like *s end the end just like Trent rolling ball Richardson

Did we forget DeFo Buckner

[EastStreet]

41 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I know what it is, I’m asking how does that affect the cap hit for Wentz for the Colts. The eagles are stuck with that dead hit

sportrac is already updated, but not sure the dead cap cut scenarios are updated

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/carson-wentz-18950/

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

[EastStreet]

45 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

To be fair, Reich wasnt calling plays the year he was trash either.

 

I hear you, but with what Ballard gave up this is a low risk vs high reward proposition.  I think we can afford to be optimistic about it.  Especially before Wentz has even put on the uniform.  Heck, technically he doesnt even have a # yet, much less an official announcement.  If it bottoms out all it really cost us was time and maybe a HC.....

I'm happy we've checked the box, and will be cheering for him to return to form. My comment was more about Reich and play calling, which was the basis for the response.

 

As far as costs, the time element is what concerns me the most (prolonged mediocrity). 

Time will tell. 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I mentioned this in a thread couple weeks ago.

I was watching a eagle game a few months ago and seen Wentz make some throws(inbetween the bad plays)that reminded me of Bret Farve.

 

Here's Pedersons thought early in Wentz's career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2666291-doug-pederson-comments-on-carson-wentz-compares-qb-to-brett-favre

 

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

I mentioned this in a thread couple weeks ago.

I was watching a eagle game a few months ago and seen Wentz make some throws(inbetween the bad plays)that reminded me of Bret Farve.

 

Here's Pedersons thought early in Wentz's career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2666291-doug-pederson-comments-on-carson-wentz-compares-qb-to-brett-favre

 

He had several very good moments 

[Lancer1]

41 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

Roseman is definitely an outlier when it comes to GMs he’s fired 3 head coaches (Reid, Kelly, Pederson) since he became GM and now has hired 3 head coaches (Kelly,Pederson,Sirianni). 
 

Most GMs don’t survive 1 hire and firing. 

Chargers GM Tom Telesco has survived 2, he's hired & fired both Mike McCoy and Anthony Lynn.

[luv_pony_express]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm happy we've checked the box, and will be cheering for him to return to form. My comment was more about Reich and play calling, which was the basis for the response.

 

As far as costs, the time element is what concerns me the most (prolonged mediocrity). 

Time will tell. 

I think it’s probably the best move realistically available for Ballard.  Is it a grand slam dunk?  No.  Wentz has major question marks.  But the downside risk v upside reward calculates out well enough....when compared to any other potential move.  If he flames out, we lose a couple years of our current window.  But we don’t tie up a bunch of cap, either...and we don’t lose any more than a 2nd and a 1st.

 

We can’t forget that the master plan when Ballard was hired was counting on Luck to still be in his peak years.  They’ve had to scramble to fill the position.  And we’re good enough to be outside the draft range where one can expect to land a potential franchise QB.

 

So, it’s iffy.  But no more so than any other option available to them.  If it works out, it’ll be a steal.

[Sumo63]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm happy we've checked the box, and will be cheering for him to return to form. My comment was more about Reich and play calling, which was the basis for the response.

 

As far as costs, the time element is what concerns me the most (prolonged mediocrity). 

Time will tell. 

Yep, won't argue with any of that.....you're spot on. 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

Yep, won't argue with any of that.....you're spot on. 

Right now, I'm trying to drink the Kool aide, but until I see it on the field, the skepticism won't disappear.  

I'll be very very happy if my skepticism is all misplaced. 

[GoColts8818]

I was out driving tonight and here is what one of the ESPN radio guys said about how the deal went down.  Take this all with a grain of salt.  
 

Ballard and the Eagles has been talking daily pretty much since the Stafford deal went down.  Ballard made pretty much this offer then.  The rest of the time was the Eagles trying to bluff Ballard into giving up more.  They think it was the Eagles leaking all the stuff about the Bears and when it became clear Ballard wasn’t bitting on that leaked that a mystery team had become involved.  Still Ballard held his ground and pretty much did the DD interview to send a message to the Eagles he wasn’t budging.  This went on until today when the Eagles were wanting a 50% snap count to trigger the first round pick.  Ballard budged and said 70% if the Colts made the playoffs.  
 

Like I said a few days ago high stakes poker was being played and we have learned Ballard doesn’t just have a good poker face but knows how to read yours as well.

[edindetroit]

Rams get Stafford, you guys got Wentz, the Lions get Goff. Sounds like the Rams win. 

[krunk]

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2021/2/18/22289862/film-room-the-colts-could-see-the-return-of-the-rpo-with-carson-wentz

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I was out driving tonight and here is what one of the ESPN radio guys said about how the deal went down.  Take this all with a grain of salt.  
 

Ballard and the Eagles has been talking daily pretty much since the Stafford deal went down.  Ballard made pretty much this offer then.  The rest of the time was the Eagles trying to bluff Ballard into giving up more.  They think it was the Eagles leaking all the stuff about the Bears and when it became clear Ballard wasn’t bitting on that leaked that a mystery team had become involved.  Still Ballard held his ground and pretty much did the DD interview to send a message to the Eagles he wasn’t budging.  This went on until today when the Eagles were wanting a 50% snap count to trigger the first round pick.  Ballard budged and said 70% if the Colts made the playoffs.  
 

Like I said a few days ago high stakes poker was being played and we have learned Ballard doesn’t just have a good poker face but knows how to read yours as well.

 

Whatever the truth is, I'm just glad Ballard stayed firm. Not sure if I buy Sirianni signing off on fake/mystery leaks (assuming he would be in the loop). I'm sure they leaked surface or superficial stuff, as all teams do. But Ballard I'm sure expected the game. Purely my opinion, but I think they just tried to play the Bears off the Colts, knowing the whole time Wentz would throw a tantrum if it wasn't the Colts. All that said, they just tried to close the delta as much as possible between the two offers, inflate as much as possible, and then get Wentz to the Colts before either team made an alternative move. It wouldn't surprise me if the Colts leaked info about us talking to other teams about other QBs just to keep Philly honest.

Just now, krunk said:

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2021/2/18/22289862/film-room-the-colts-could-see-the-return-of-the-rpo-with-carson-wentz

let's hope.