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Colts Trade for Wentz (details in first post)


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Just now, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Naa! It is the value of the QB position. Concerns with Wentz and injuries x the grade they had on Hurts. You have to have a QB, including a good backup.  

Teams don't use second round picks because they want a rookie QB to be the backup.  If they want a backup to their committed starter, they sign a fallen star vet for $4mm per year.

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I am never playing poker with Ballard. My god that's a steal.

Long time Eagles fan, here is my rundown on Carson Wentz. I'll start with Wentz the person/teammate. Through 2018 he was widely considered a great guy, great teammate, hard worker. Then out of t

From Adam Schefter: Philadelphia has agreed to trade Carson Wentz to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for a 2021 third-round pick and a conditional 2022 second-round pick that could turn into a firs

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3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Teams don't use second round picks because they want a rookie QB to be the backup.  If they want a backup to their committed starter, they sign a fallen star vet for $4mm per year.

They do if they think Hurts has eventual starter ability. 

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43 minutes ago, Nickster said:

He’s terrific man But they’ve not won 17 games the last three years.  Not feeling him as the savior of the Texans.

 

his rookie year he was a third down back.  That was the only year they were good.

 

Panthers QBing and coaching has been awful. No RB is elevating his team to contention, but McCaffrey isn't the reason the Panthers have been bad.

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

They do if they think Hurts has eventual starter ability. 

Yes, and that is my point.  It means that at the time they drafted Hurts, they already had questions about whether they wanted Wentz for the duration of his contract and a that price.

 

If they were completely satisfied, and this is only 9 months after signing the extension, I'd think they'd build for another SB window by getting Wentz a WR or an olineman or a defensive player, not potentially reloading on another QB.

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1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Panthers QBing and coaching has been awful. No RB is elevating his team to contention, but McCaffrey isn't the reason the Panthers have been bad.

Dude god I am not saying he is the reason they are bad.  He’s great.  He ain’t gonna make the Texans a better team IMO swapped for Watson is all I am discussing,

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3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Dude god I am not saying he is the reason they are bad.  He’s great.  He ain’t gonna make the Texans a better team IMO swapped for Watson is all I am discussing,

 

Good.

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24 minutes ago, chickenMan said:

Trubisky is the best option if you want the first overall pick of the 2022 NFL Draft

This is way closer to the truth than he's a gem waiting to be uncovered.

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2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't have a problem with drafting a QB in the second round (I wasn't a fan of Hurts, but that's a different topic). Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. We've had our franchise level QB go down enough in the last decade to really appreciate that. 

 

And they signed Wentz after he came back in 2018, and looked like he was physically capable of getting back to his old self. He never quite performed over the next two seasons.

 

I never liked the structure of the contract. The staggered guarantees and the bonuses and whatnot, they were locked in for four years, which was pretty unprecedented for signing a guy two years early. Going early on your young QB is supposed to give the team flexibility, not tie them down. But that seems to be the approach now, as Goff, Mahomes and Watson have the same structure. Mahomes guarantees stagger two years in advance, so they're basically locked in until 2025, unless they cut him in the next 30 days.

 

Rather than that structure, they could have just waited a year. At this point, he would just be a free agent, finishing his fifth year option. Their plan now seems half-baked.

 

I'm off topic. They could have still fully supported their supposed franchise QB, despite drafting Hurts in the second round. Seems like they let him deteriorate on a fundamental level, then benched him when his performance faltered, with little help in between.

 

I somewhat agree.  IMO, the problem was that the Eagles actions suggested indecision and ambivalence about Wentz.  I guess that's understandable.  But the contract they offered him suggested that he was "their guy" for the next 6 seasons.  But drafting Hurts in the subsequent draft suggested something else.

 

If they lacked confidence in Wentz to the degree they were going to use a 2nd round pick on another QB, why the contract?  If they had the confidence in Wentz to offer the big extension, why the draft?

 

That's all I'm getting at.

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21 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

I somewhat agree.  IMO, the problem was that the Eagles actions suggested indecision and ambivalence about Wentz.  I guess that's understandable.  But the contract they offered him suggested that he was "their guy" for the next 6 seasons.  But drafting Hurts in the subsequent draft suggested something else.

 

If they lacked confidence in Wentz to the degree they were going to use a 2nd round pick on another QB, why the contract?  If they had the confidence in Wentz to offer the big extension, why the draft?

 

That's all I'm getting at.

The exact point I've been making.  The contract suggests a commitment to a starter.  9 months later, using a 2nd round pick on a QB with starting potential suggests that commitment dissipated.  What happened?

 

When teams give a QB a top-5 contract, they do not then initiate a QB competition.  They give him weapons and a defense.

 

Mike Florio, who I usually like, is making a comparison to the Rogers/Love situation.  Where Rogers game improved after the selection of Love whereas Wentz declined after the drafting of Hurts.  But GB did not draft Love to light a fire under Rogers.  They drafted him as possible insurance against Rogers retiring.  Totally different situation than Wentz, so the idea that Wentz was suppose to be incented by Hurts is bogus, IMO.  Its more likely that he picked up on something that told him he was out no matter what.  Hence the loss of confidence.  Drafting Love gives no indication management lost confidence in Rogers.  They simply wanted insurance against sudden retirement.

 

I think Roseman simply drinks too many cocktails before he makes business decisions.  JK. 

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10 hours ago, Nickster said:

You are going to live the kinds of plays Frank will be able to call with Wentz that he couldn’t call with Rivers.

We shall see. I wasn't really impressed with Reich with Luck (play calling) either. 

 

And given Reich will likely break down Wentz's mechanics, I think the dink and dunk and run heavy will live strong in 2021. 

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Just now, EastStreet said:

We shall see. I wasn't really impressed with Reich with Luck (play calling) either. 

 

And given Reich will likely break down Wentz's mechanics, I think the dink and dunk and run heavy will live strong in 2021. 

I'll take dink and dunk all day if it wins games.

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1 minute ago, Indyfan4life said:

I'll take dink and dunk all day if it wins games.

Dink and dunk will win games, just rare that it wins many playoff games. Not calling for air raid or anything, just more dynamic and less predictive overall. 

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8 minutes ago, HoosierHero said:

Man, he sure was in a hurry to get out of Philly. Haha

Drove himself from the airport to HQ.  For some reason, I'd think the team would have somebody meet him at the airport.

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48 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

I somewhat agree.  IMO, the problem was that the Eagles actions suggested indecision and ambivalence about Wentz.  I guess that's understandable.  But the contract they offered him suggested that he was "their guy" for the next 6 seasons.  But drafting Hurts in the subsequent draft suggested something else.

 

If they lacked confidence in Wentz to the degree they were going to use a 2nd round pick on another QB, why the contract?  If they had the confidence in Wentz to offer the big extension, why the draft?

 

That's all I'm getting at.

 

Having a good backup, or a promising young backup, doesn't mean you don't believe in your starter. It means you're prepared in case something happens. The Eagles won the SB because they had a good backup.

 

We gotta stop acting like backup QB isn't important. Sometimes QBs get hurt, or play poorly, or suddenly retire.

 

And in Wentz's case, Hurts probably doesn't play if Wentz doesn't deteriorate in 2020. Hurts probably holds a clipboard all season, just like Eason did. Just like Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy Garappolo in New England... except when Brady couldn't play, and because they had good backups they were able to go 3-1 without him.

 

I'm not saying the Eagles did a good job supporting and coaching Wentz, all indications are that they did not. And their failures in that area probably contributed to Wentz not playing well in 2020, not to mention the other roster issues. But if your team extends you, then drafts a QB in the second round, that doesn't mean you can't still perform at a high level. Wentz is no Aaron Rodgers, but Rodgers responded to the Packers using a first on a QB by winning MVP.

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11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

We shall see. I wasn't really impressed with Reich with Luck (play calling) either. 

 

And given Reich will likely break down Wentz's mechanics, I think the dink and dunk and run heavy will live strong in 2021. 

Given that Luck put up his best season by far, and that Luck wasn’t even in football playing shape until nearly the halfway point of the year, I thought Reich’s work with Andrew was nothing short of brilliant. 
 

Then again, you freely admit to not being much of a Luck fan and you’re not a fan of Frank’s play calling, so here we are. 

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13 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Given that Luck put up his best season by far, and that Luck wasn’t even in football playing shape until nearly the halfway point of the year, I thought Reich’s work with Andrew was nothing short of brilliant. 
 

Then again, you freely admit to not being much of a Luck fan and you’re not a fan of Frank’s play calling, so here we are. 

I'm a fan of Luck, just don't see him on the level as Manning (not controversial), and not a fan of the timing of his departure (I'm not alone). 

 

As far as best year, I think it was 2014. As far playing shape, he had plenty of good games early, and IMO, his early season game vs Houston was his best of the year. 

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

As far as best year, I think it was 2014. As far playing shape, he had plenty of good games early, and IMO, his early season game vs Houston was his best of the year. 

 

In 2014 he carried an offense with no running game, bad line play, and an average OC. He was more efficient in 2018, but had better offensive coaching and much better OL play.

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20 hours ago, BluesGirl said:

Fair enough.   As long as you can come back and admit you were wrong if they all work well together.

 

I know I will if Im wrong 

 

BTW do you have a Harbaugh jersey?    Loved him 

I really hope that I am wrong on this one, we have too good of a team to waste a year on a damaged qb imho.  Of course I will admit it if I am in the wrong.

Don't have the Harbaugh jersey but he remains my fav, those were some times.  That dang Pittsburgh game still stings...

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28 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Having a good backup, or a promising young backup, doesn't mean you don't believe in your starter. It means you're prepared in case something happens. The Eagles won the SB because they had a good backup.

 

We gotta stop acting like backup QB isn't important. Sometimes QBs get hurt, or play poorly, or suddenly retire.

 

And in Wentz's case, Hurts probably doesn't play if Wentz doesn't deteriorate in 2020. Hurts probably holds a clipboard all season, just like Eason did. Just like Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy Garappolo in New England... except when Brady couldn't play, and because they had good backups they were able to go 3-1 without him.

 

I'm not saying the Eagles did a good job supporting and coaching Wentz, all indications are that they did not. And their failures in that area probably contributed to Wentz not playing well in 2020, not to mention the other roster issues. But if your team extends you, then drafts a QB in the second round, that doesn't mean you can't still perform at a high level. Wentz is no Aaron Rodgers, but Rodgers responded to the Packers using a first on a QB by winning MVP.

I think you're stretching comparisons when you equate a 2nd round rookie as being the kind of back up QB a SB contending team is looking for.  Philly won because they had a vet who could step in. 

 

Teams don't really count on rookies to step in and play well without ever playing a down in the NFL, unless they are a top 10 pick.  In that case, they are probably the starter and not the back up. JMO.

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28 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Having a good backup, or a promising young backup, doesn't mean you don't believe in your starter. It means you're prepared in case something happens. The Eagles won the SB because they had a good backup.

 

We gotta stop acting like backup QB isn't important. Sometimes QBs get hurt, or play poorly, or suddenly retire.

 

And in Wentz's case, Hurts probably doesn't play if Wentz doesn't deteriorate in 2020. Hurts probably holds a clipboard all season, just like Eason did. Just like Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy Garappolo in New England... except when Brady couldn't play, and because they had good backups they were able to go 3-1 without him.

 

I'm not saying the Eagles did a good job supporting and coaching Wentz, all indications are that they did not. And their failures in that area probably contributed to Wentz not playing well in 2020, not to mention the other roster issues. But if your team extends you, then drafts a QB in the second round, that doesn't mean you can't still perform at a high level. Wentz is no Aaron Rodgers, but Rodgers responded to the Packers using a first on a QB by winning MVP.


I never said that backup QB doesn’t matter.  But there’s a lot of daylight between “doesn’t matter” and “2nd rounder in the draft after we extended the starter.”

 

I don’t think the Rodgers/Love analogy holds.  Rodgers is clearly getting into the twilight of his career.  And I’m sure the Packers would love to repeat the transition they pulled off with Favre and Rodgers.

 

Can we think of other examples of teams extending a young starting QB and then turning around in the very next draft and picking a QB as high as Hurts was?

 

We’d have gone collectively bonkers if Grigson had done that right after extending Luck.

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10 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

Can we think of other examples of teams extending a young starting QB and then turning around in the very next draft and picking a QB as high as Hurts was?

 

The Eagles seem to have a history of drafting QBs when they appear to not need them, just as the Patriots and Packers do. I recall the Eagles drafting Kevin Kolb in the 2nd round in 2007 and McNabb was still in his prime.  Many were surprised to see them draft a QB so high. 

 

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I don’t think I recall a coordinator making the draft call. Especially for the  QB.  You would think the HC, owner, or GM would make that call. Looks like Peterson was not a very involved HC.

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19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

In 2014 he carried an offense with no running game, bad line play, and an average OC. He was more efficient in 2018, but had better offensive coaching and much better OL play.

Yup, in 2014 it was the Luck show. That year would have been scary if he had today's OL and running game.

 

I disagree on having a bad OC. Given the limitations Pep had that year, it's a wonder we did as well as we did and won the AFCS.

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2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t think I recall a coordinator making the draft call. Especially for the  QB.  You would think the HC, owner, or GM would make that call. Looks like Peterson was not a very involved HC.

LOL. Pederson was the only NFL coach at Wentz's pro day. He was also the play caller. 

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17 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:


I never said that backup QB doesn’t matter.  But there’s a lot of daylight between “doesn’t matter” and “2nd rounder in the draft after we extended the starter.”

 

I don’t think the Rodgers/Love analogy holds.  Rodgers is clearly getting into the twilight of his career.  And I’m sure the Packers would love to repeat the transition they pulled off with Favre and Rodgers.

 

Can we think of other examples of teams extending a young starting QB and then turning around in the very next draft and picking a QB as high as Hurts was?

 

We’d have gone collectively bonkers if Grigson had done that right after extending Luck.

 

If Grigson had drafted a capable backup in 2016, our 2017 season might not have been such a train wreck. 

 

Regarding Rodgers, the point is that even if your team drafts another QB and it upsets you, as it clearly did Rodgers, it doesn't mean you can't perform. 

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6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup, in 2014 it was the Luck show. That year would have been scary if he had today's OL and running game.

 

I disagree on having a bad OC. Given the limitations Pep had that year, it's a wonder we did as well as we did and won the AFCS.

 

I didn't call Pep bad. I called him average. Five years ago I would have called him bad, but recent years have improved my opinion of him. I still don't think he had a great handle on his offense, and I don't think he had a good feel as a play caller.

 

Either way, my point was just that even though Luck was statistically better in a lot of ways in 2018, he was also better supported that year than he was in 2014. 

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2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If Grigson had drafted a capable backup in 2016, our 2017 season might not have been such a train wreck. 

 

Regarding Rodgers, the point is that even if your team drafts another QB and it upsets you, as it clearly did Rodgers, it doesn't mean you can't perform. 

Ok, but I’m not necessarily blaming Wentz’s 2020 regression on the decision to draft Hurts. Some people are saying that.  But I don’t know if I buy it.

 

I’m just saying that, given their apparent confidence in Wentz as evidenced by the extension, you’d think they’d have used their draft capital to build the team he would need around him to maximize the investment they made in him.

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22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't call Pep bad. I called him average. Five years ago I would have called him bad, but recent years have improved my opinion of him. I still don't think he had a great handle on his offense, and I don't think he had a good feel as a play caller.

 

Either way, my point was just that even though Luck was statistically better in a lot of ways in 2018, he was also better supported that year than he was in 2014. 

I think statistically they were very similar. Some areas better, some worse, but all were pretty close. Below are the basics. Better in bolded

 

Record (14/18): 11-5 / 10-6

Yards: 4761 / 4593

TD-INT: 40-16 / 39-15

TD%: 6.5 / 6.1

INT%: 2.6 / 2.3

ANY/A: 7.28 / 6.95

Completion%: 61.7 / 67.3

PR: 96.5 / 98.7

QBR: 62.6 / 69.6

 

D Ranks (yards allowed): 22nd / 22nd

OL Rank: 17th / 3rd

 

So in short, given the very similar QB stats, similar D rank, yet far worse OL and running game.... And some of the #s can be explained by scheme difference.

 

It's very hard for me to say he had better O coaching in 2018.

 

If anything, it would suggest that Pep did the same with far less, which would logically suggest Pep did better. 

 

Dungy is also a big fan of Pep, and said he's the guy that deserves a HC shot more than anyone else in the league when talking on the topic of diversity.

 

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32 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

LOL. Pederson was the only NFL coach at Wentz's pro day. He was also the play caller. 

I find that hard to believe for a guy that was drafted 2 overall.  I would imagine most teams had coach or GM there

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Drove himself from the airport to HQ.  For some reason, I'd think the team would have somebody meet him at the airport.

wentz is not a colt until march 17  that is against the rules of nfl .   wentz is choosing to come early because he hates philly and i dont blame him .

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