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Colts Trade for Wentz (details in first post)


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27 minutes ago, csmopar said:

maybe.  Something definitely happened with him though, both physically and mentally.  Been watching 2019 vs 2020 game clips of him this morning.  And 2019, his mechanics looked like 2017, but 2020, its like he did a body swap

I haven’t watched anything, but similar things were said about Rivers performance in last year in LA.  

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I am never playing poker with Ballard. My god that's a steal.

Long time Eagles fan, here is my rundown on Carson Wentz. I'll start with Wentz the person/teammate. Through 2018 he was widely considered a great guy, great teammate, hard worker. Then out of t

From Adam Schefter: Philadelphia has agreed to trade Carson Wentz to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for a 2021 third-round pick and a conditional 2022 second-round pick that could turn into a firs

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5 hours ago, Colt Overseas said:

Not sure if this has been posted already, but this is the most reasonable take from an Eagles perspective I came across.

 

 

I admit, I wasn’t the biggest fan of trading for Wentz. But it’s really become apparent that the situation in Philly had had completely broken down in terms of trust, relationships and culture. Not to mention lack of talent and injuries around Wentz. No climate for Wentz or any QB to succeed. I think here in Indy, surrounded by good players, good coaches and good staff, most most of all people he can trust, Wentz can succeed. I’m excited for him and the Colts. And the talent he has is unquestionable.

Ok.  If we're going to talk about the Eagles here, and why they traded Wentz, searching for reasons, I've asked this question in other threads.

 

Why did Roseman draft Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round (when their positional player roster is getting old) 9 months AFTER extending Wentz to a huge contract and AFTER he just finished a season with a 93 QBR on a declining team?

 

Wentz play and his contract says he is the starter.  No question, he is the starter.

 

Why do that?  Its not Favre.  Its not Rogers.  Wentz is 28. He's not 38 and uttering the word retirement sometimes in pressers.

 

So I would not point to any disfunction we see in 2020 as being the focus of the locker room issues.  I see it starting before then.  I see it being the reason Roseman drafted Hurts to begin with.  What are/were the issues in the Philly locker room during the 93 QBR 2019 season that prompted Roseman to start a QB controversy by using good capital to draft Hurts when there was no QB issues before?

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Haven’t looked at all of the 19 pages to see if it’s been posted, but Brett Kollmann made a decent breakdown of Wentz’s struggles during the season. Starts with a good look at his mechanics (bit of an intro, breakdown starts around 5 mins in):

 

 

Also goes into him playing hero ball and of course, coaching problems.

 

Good news, all fixable. Good situation here for that, good/familiar coaching. Just gotta hope it works out.

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I wonder if Ballard Roseman have an agreement that the Colts won't try to get under the 75% of plays.   For instance, if the Colts are up 34-7 in week one, will the Colts pull Wentz for the 4th quarter.   Same with a game where the Colts are being crushed will they pull Wentz. Pull him from the last couple minutes of the game if it is out of reach?   Just to build some plays against the 75% so that if Wentz get hurt in week 14 we could still have a shot to keep our 1st round pick.  We would need him not to play in 4 full games worth of plays to keep the 1st round pick.   

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10 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Haven’t looked at all of the 19 pages to see if it’s been posted, but Brett Kollmann made a decent breakdown of Wentz’s struggles during the season. Starts with a good look at his mechanics (bit of an intro, breakdown starts around 5 mins in):

 

 

Also goes into him playing hero ball and of course, coaching problems.

 

Good news, all fixable. Good situation here for that, good/familiar coaching. Just gotta hope it works out.

It has been posted but reposting doesn’t hurt

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2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I wonder if Ballard Roseman have an agreement that the Colts won't try to get under the 75% of plays.   For instance, if the Colts are up 34-7 in week one, will the Colts pull Wentz for the 4th quarter.   Same with a game where the Colts are being crushed will they pull Wentz. Pull him from the last couple minutes of the game if it is out of reach?   Just to build some plays against the 75% so that if Wentz get hurt in week 14 we could still have a shot to keep our 1st round pick.  We would need him not to play in 4 full games worth of plays to keep the 1st round pick.   

Maybe.  But Ballard wouldn't have to honor it

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33 minutes ago, Myles said:

I wonder if Ballard Roseman have an agreement that the Colts won't try to get under the 75% of plays.   For instance, if the Colts are up 34-7 in week one, will the Colts pull Wentz for the 4th quarter.   Same with a game where the Colts are being crushed will they pull Wentz. Pull him from the last couple minutes of the game if it is out of reach?   Just to build some plays against the 75% so that if Wentz get hurt in week 14 we could still have a shot to keep our 1st round pick.  We would need him not to play in 4 full games worth of plays to keep the 1st round pick.   

I think that's probably related to injury risk over the course of a season.  I think Wentz has been dinged up a lot regardless of the knee.  I've got to believe that the Coaches are committed to playing Wentz as much as possible.

 

In any blowout, they should have the freedom to pull their starter for injury protection and insert Eason for developmental reasons and not have to be concerned about trade clauses,  

 

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People seem to be hyper-focused on the 1st rd / 2nd rd pick for 2022.  I see it that the Colts will be more than happy to pay the first unless he is unfixable and they won't be playing any "pitch count" games around it.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

In a way Wentz has a lot of issues Luck had early and Reich was able to correct. He needs to not take so many hits and get the ball out a little quicker. Reich was able to help Luck improve these issues. I have seen a lot of posts on twitter saying Wentz plays a lot like luck as far as his style.  Reich was also able to get Lucks accuracy up.

These are good points. People seem to forget, too, that Luck struggled at times when his offensive line was particularly poor and/or injured. Quarterbacks (even Peyton, remember his happy feet when facing a heavy pass rush?) play a lot better when they're not running for their life. That's obvious, yet some fans put too much of the blame on the quarterback's struggles when a whole offense is broken. The unbroken Colts' offense is going to help Wentz a lot as he works on the issues you mention. I sure hope they succeed in getting a good left tackle.  

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Ok.  If we're going to talk about the Eagles here, and why they traded Wentz, searching for reasons, I've asked this question in other threads.

 

Why did Roseman draft Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round (when their positional player roster is getting old) 9 months AFTER extending Wentz to a huge contract and AFTER he just finished a season with a 93 QBR on a declining team?

 

Wentz play and his contract says he is the starter.  No question, he is the starter.

 

Why do that?  Its not Favre.  Its not Rogers.  Wentz is 28. He's not 38 and uttering the word retirement sometimes in pressers.

 

So I would not point to any disfunction we see in 2020 as being the focus of the locker room issues.  I see it starting before then.  I see it being the reason Roseman drafted Hurts to begin with.  What are/were the issues in the Philly locker room during the 93 QBR 2019 season that prompted Roseman to start a QB controversy by using good capital to draft Hurts when there was no QB issues before?

 

Injuries I'd say. He was injury prone up until before last season (he stayed healthy all of 2020). Eagles wanted a good back up for him in case of injury. I accept its possible there may be other factors though.

 

Its also the main reason why the 2022 2nd pick pick is conditional. Like an insurance policy I think, incase Wentz gets injured. 

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8 minutes ago, Colt Overseas said:

 

Injuries I'd say. He was injury prone up until before last season (he stayed healthy all of 2020). Eagles wanted a good back up for him in case of injury. I accept its possible there may be other factors though.

 

Its also the main reason why the 2022 2nd pick pick is conditional. Like an insurance policy I think, incase Wentz gets injured. 

I think Wentz being dinged up is a bigger deal than what we've talked about.

 

But why Hurts?  Backups are usually veterans that are ready to come in and play when the starter goes down with injury.  Not rookie second round talent.

 

I think Rosemann just seems flighty or something.  Reactionary maybe.  Like Bob Irsay making impulsive decisions after a few cocktails and watching a bad game....

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16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think that's probably related to injury risk over the course of a season.  I think Wentz has been dinged up a lot regardless of the knee.  I've got to believe that the Coaches are committed to playing Wentz as much as possible.

 

In any blowout, they should have the freedom to pull their starter for injury protection and insert Eason for developmental reasons and not have to be concerned about trade clauses,  

 

It just makes me wonder if Ballard and Reich will try to inch towards that 74% rate.   If they do 60 plays a game, they'd need Wentz to miss 15 plays a game.   That's not likely.   But if they are close and the last game is meaningless, they could sit Wentz and maybe keep their 1st round pick.  

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think Wentz being dinged up is a bigger deal than what we've talked about.

 

But why Hurts?  Backups are usually veterans that are ready to come in and play when the starter goes down with injury.  Not rookie second round talent.

 

I think Rosemann just seems flighty or something.  Like Bob Irsay making impulsive decisions after a few cocktails....

I actually don’t think it’s a bad idea to draft a QB in the second or third rounds as a backup. Teams go south so often when the starter gets hurt. The biggest issue here was the entire eagles team got injured and Wentz didn’t play well. They should of finished the season with Wentz and vowed to get better around him. Not create a controversy by benching him to see what Hurts could do. The organization created a controversy that wasn’t needed.

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1 hour ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Haven’t looked at all of the 19 pages to see if it’s been posted, but Brett Kollmann made a decent breakdown of Wentz’s struggles during the season. Starts with a good look at his mechanics (bit of an intro, breakdown starts around 5 mins in):

 

 

Also goes into him playing hero ball and of course, coaching problems.

 

Good news, all fixable. Good situation here for that, good/familiar coaching. Just gotta hope it works out.


Sounds very similar to Rivers issues in 2019.

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9 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I actually don’t think it’s a bad idea to draft a QB in the second or third rounds as a backup. Teams go south so often when the starter gets hurt. The biggest issue here was the entire eagles team got injured and Wentz didn’t play well. They should of finished the season with Wentz and vowed to get better around him. Not create a controversy by benching him to see what Hurts could do. The organization created a controversy that wasn’t needed.

I'm not saying that drafting Hurts started the controversy.  Contributed maybe but not started.  Maybe Wentz' attitude after he came back from the knee turned people off.  I'm simply saying that whatever was brewing in Philly was brewing before 2020 and Wentz' bad performance.  And understanding that would go a long ways to understanding Wentz mindset, IMO.

 

Personally, I wouldn't go into the season with bias about Wentz' attitude.  I would simply judge things for myself.

 

I think the concept of having a backup for injury purposes is like how we had Hasselbeck for Luck.  The wrong way was to have Curtis Painter back up Manning.  Rogers and Love weren't drafted highly by GB to be backups.  Its was obvious they were the chosen heir until they prove otherwise.

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4 hours ago, Nickster said:


It would be foolish not to bench him before the threshold if they are out of contention.

 

but I’m pretty sure that won’t be a factor


Right...   if we’re out of contention I’d agree.   Then we’ve had a terrible season and we have problems. 
 

Im talking about if we’re in the gray area.  So we’re 6-6 after 12 games and not eliminated. I think we stay with Wentz at that point and continue to show trust and faith.  I don’t see us deliberately benching him to protect the first round pick. 

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Good Lord.

 

I'm watching all kinds of different sports shows this morning to hear more about this transaction and all they keep on about is the Philadelphia side of it.

 

Gotta love the large market bias...

 

I get it, it will always be that way, but still...

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Contract Notes:

$66.47M guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2019 salary + 2020 salary/option bonus + 2020 roster bonus + 2021 roster bonus)

$15M of 2022 salary fully guarantees on 3/19/2021

2022 salary & roster bonus fully guarantee on the 3rd league day of 2022

2020 Option must be exercised by 3/27/2020, or 2020 salary jumps to $31.383M and remaining years void

2020 Roster Bonus: $8M (guaranteed, paid 3/20/2020)

2021 Roster Bonus: $10M (guaranteed, paid 3/19/2021)

2022 Roster Bonus: $1,000

2023 Roster Bonus: $5M

2024 Roster Bonus: $5M

2021 base salary is $3.9M, with an $11.5M not likely to be earned escalator built in

2021 salary fully guarantees 3/20/2020

Additional incentives: $16M

One-Time Bonuses
NFL MVP: $5M
Offensive Player of the Year: $5M
3 Pro Bowls or 2 + a Playoff Berth: $6M
Super Bowl Win + 70% Snaps: $5M

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/carson-wentz-18950/

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36 minutes ago, Myles said:

It just makes me wonder if Ballard and Reich will try to inch towards that 74% rate.   If they do 60 plays a game, they'd need Wentz to miss 15 plays a game.   That's not likely.   But if they are close and the last game is meaningless, they could sit Wentz and maybe keep their 1st round pick.  

But it will still be a second rounder regardless.  I don't think they will start off the season thinking about the 74% at all.  They may look at the stats 3/4 through the season and make some decisions based on that going forward if its close, but even so, I don't think they will look at the trade clause and protect the first rounder if it in any way jeopardizes a chance to win a game.  Even if we are having a bad season, of Wentz is the best option to win a game, I don't see them looking at the trade clause as a reason to keep him out.  JMO.

 

I think the reason you do that is if Wentz has clearly shown you that he is not the guy.  That he is bad, unfixable, and has a bad attitude and you've decided by week 13 you're moving on next year.

 

Barring injury, I fully expect the Colts to be giving up their 2022 first rounder for Wentz, even if he is simply only above average.

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12 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

I think those numbers are off a little

 

    Unless something has changed since yesterday part of his 22 salary is guaranteed 

 

As of March 19 2021.

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8 minutes ago, Pelt said:

Good Lord.

 

I'm watching all kinds of different sports shows this morning to hear more about this transaction and all they keep on about is the Philadelphia side of it.

 

Gotta love the large market bias...

 

I get it, it will always be that way, but still...

There is also a lot more controversy and drama to be had by talking about the Philly side.

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29 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

No part of Wentz's contract is guaranteed after this year.


This is misleading at best. 
 

If you scroll down to the post from @Myles you’ll see that Wentz’s entire ‘22 salary is guaranteed on the THIRD LEAGUE DAY.   That’s mid-March.   
 

So, unless Wentz is badly hurt this year or is terrible beyond belief, all of us should expect that we’re keeping Wentz and guaranteeing that number.   Which is $22 million. 

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31 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm not saying that drafting Hurts started the controversy.  Contributed maybe but not started.  Maybe Wentz' attitude after he came back from the knee turned people off.  I'm simply saying that whatever was brewing in Philly was brewing before 2020 and Wentz' bad performance.  And understanding that would go a long ways to understanding Wentz mindset, IMO.

 

Personally, I wouldn't go into the season with bias about Wentz' attitude.  I would simply judge things for myself.

 

 

It's from five years ago, but the personal characteristics from a scouting report for Wentz coming out of college were all good. I'm not buying into the negative rumors without substantiation.  https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2016cwentz.php

 

Strengths

Intelligent

Leadership

Football I.Q.

Winner; championship pedigree

Good character

Work ethic

Humble, eager to learn

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25 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

McCaffrey is not in his last six seasons so what's your point? 

 

Gore was really only a needle mover one season and that was his 2nd season.  He was a solid running back for several years after that but nothing very scary.  He's been a Jag for many years now.  And he is the outlier.  Only a handful of backs produce much after 5 or so years.

 

Most running backs are past their prime by 26 or 27 and largley used up.

 

So my point is that havin Mccarrfey on that disaster of a team is not very scary .  He's likely to be used up in a couple of years before they right the ship.

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11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I believe this is incorrect.   As of the third day if the league calendar of 2022.   23 months from now says the contract line from @Myles Post. 

 

Check the bolded. Staggered guarantee, effectively making his contract guaranteed for 2022.

 

Contract Notes:

$66.47M guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2019 salary + 2020 salary/option bonus + 2020 roster bonus + 2021 roster bonus)

$15M of 2022 salary fully guarantees on 3/19/2021

2022 salary & roster bonus fully guarantee on the 3rd league day of 2022

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8 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Gore was really only a needle mover one season and that was his 2nd season.  He was a solid running back for several years after that but nothing very scary.  He's been a Jag for many years now.  And he is the outlier.  Only a handful of backs produce much after 5 or so years.

 

Most running backs are past their prime by 26 or 27 and largley used up.

 

So my point is that havin Mccarrfey on that disaster of a team is not very scary .  He's likely to be used up in a couple of years before they right the ship.

I take it you haven't been paying much attention to McCaffrey and what he did so far in his career. 

You may take him lightly but you can bet no defensive coordinator is going to. 

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based on the 3/2 picks, clearly the colts were the only team interested,  why didnt they wait for the 10M march roster bonus to be paid by Eagles.  Either that or philly would have released him with an even bigger dead cap hit and colts could have got him off waivers.

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5 hours ago, Pelt said:

I offered up "broken" in the context of the media and fans saying that Reich can "fix" Wentz. Surely you've seen or read some of this recently.

OK I agree Wentz is seen as a project now and that is scary. The part of him that upsets him when he is in competition for the starting job is telling. Since when do athletes on teams not accept the challenge of competitors? 

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1 hour ago, Vader said:

People seem to be hyper-focused on the 1st rd / 2nd rd pick for 2022.  I see it that the Colts will be more than happy to pay the first unless he is unfixable and they won't be playing any "pitch count" games around it.

Exactly. There are only two paths for this.....(IMO)

 

The Colts get him up to speed, and he starts winning, and they never even flinch at the 1st/2nd round draft pick scenario. 

Or he struggles to the point where 2/3rds through the season he regresses and the Colts have to go in another direction. 

 

There is no inbetween where I see this staff actually dialoguing about manipulating snap counts. They are going to succeed, and that is where they're focused.

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14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Check the bolded. Staggered guarantee, effectively making his contract guaranteed for 2022.

 

Contract Notes:

$66.47M guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2019 salary + 2020 salary/option bonus + 2020 roster bonus + 2021 roster bonus)

$15M of 2022 salary fully guarantees on 3/19/2021

2022 salary & roster bonus fully guarantee on the 3rd league day of 2022

Thanks.

 

Sorry..   I saw the line below focused on 2022.

 

I should’ve known better with a man who makes his living in numbers and fine print!  :thmup:

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5 hours ago, Nickster said:

I agree but he did shell out 28 mill for ONE MORE FRIGGIN YEAR of Jacoby Brisset.

That was a complete vote of confidence, A necessary gesture to show the public, team, and qb, that you consider the qb a legitimate option as a starter, rather than an oh crap emergency  fill in.....

 

That said, I never had a problem with that job deal..... It was obviously completely a superficial gesture, And not a mistake.... It was a calculated move.   Why is that so hard to see?  He had zero other options, it was two weeks before kickoff.... It was JB or Tebow....lol.  

 

Seriously, only way that contract would have been a mistake is if it were for multiple years, and kept them from signing players they wanted.......as I said above, it was two weeks before the season, there was no signing of consequence they missed because of paying JB, as far as FA..... Maybe they could have extended another upcoming FA, but that's all conjecture..... They had the money and cap space, and no plans for it ... Made absolute sense at the time.  Sorry just tired of people revising that situation and having slightly selective memories.

 

End Rant......lol

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