Bob Kravitz calls on Irsay to fire Grigson and Pagano

[RockThatBlue]

http://www.wthr.com/article/kravitz-its-time-for-irsay-to-bite-the-bullet-send-grigson-and-pagano-packing-at-seasons-end

[Boiler_Colt]

Good column. Agree 100%

[IinD]

Bob's trying to help us fans out. 

[DougDew]

I hate Kravitz.  Always have.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I hate Kravitz.  Always have.

 

I don't hate him, just don't have any real regard for his opinion. 

[IndyD4U]

Here's a Doyle article to read as well. Didn't feel it was worthy of its own thread so I'll share here 

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/14/doyel-irsay-sure-sounds-ready-fire-pagano-grigson/95447320/

[HarryTheCat]

It's time for Irsay to blow it up and rebuild, starting with the 2017 draft. This team isn't even fun to watch on TV anymore, much less worth paying for season tickets. The product they're putting on the field just sucks, and most folks could make better use of their money.  

 

Just look at the draft picks since Grigson has been GM.  The Colts have had 38 draft picks since Grigson came to town, plus the one they blew on Trent Richardson, and you really have to stretch to find 6 or 7 "quality" starters in the bunch. When you go bust using three out of five of your first round picks for the likes Richardson, Werner, and Dorsett you'll never get there. I'm counting Ryan as a good pick, just because he's had a pretty good season, but time will tell. Grigson's record in FA is also equally dismal. 

 

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't hate him, just don't have any real regard for his opinion. 

His opinions are so consistent that I can see the person beneath them.  He always seems to write with an elitist tone, especially towards anybody in power.  They are never smart enough.  And seems to have some sort of inherent bitterness towards the people of Indianapolis.  Another jab at us in this article.

 

 "there's no way Irsay can sell this brain trust to this market for another season. No. Way. This remains a soft market that will turn away from the Colts without giving it a second thought."

[Bubbz]

BRAD WELLS IS BOB KRAVITZ

[aaron11]

i think bob is pretty good at what he does, but doyle on the other hand is terrible

[RockThatBlue]

6 minutes ago, Bubbz said:

BRAD WELLS IS BOB KRAVITZ

No one is worse than Brad Wells. Doyel is pretty close though.

[aaron11]

hes right too

 

having luck with just a remotely decent roster should be enough to win the south

 

instead (not counting the QB) we have possibly the worst roster in the league outside of Cleveland and maybe the 49ers

[1959Colts]

I agree with Kravitz and Doyel.

Both articles are excellent and dead-on.

[DougDew]

BTW, I'm not opposed to firing Grigs and/or Pagano, especially seeing that Chud has seemingly made little progress, but I' always critical of those who say to fire them based upon their lack of production.

 

You have to replace them with someone better.  That's the hard part.  Venting by firing is the easy part.  And to fire them because of the thought that anybody he hires to replace them could do better, think again. 

[indy1888]

Agree 100 percent with Kravitz and like it or not he's also correct that a lot of the fanbase will stay away from Lucas Oil next year if changes aren't made.  It's already starting to happen now.  A lot of people thought these men should have been fired last year.  They weren't and they gave them another chance, i believe most are now convinced it was a mistake and see no hope going forward with these 2 in charge.   This regime has ran it's course. If anything the team is regressing.  Hopefully Irsay cans them both after the season.

[21isSuperman]

I agree with his general sentiment, but a couple of issues with the article.

1) The very first sentence:

Quote

At the time, it didn't seem like a mistake to keep Ryan Grigson and Chuck Pagano.

Actually, yes, it did.  There were many people who thought it was a mistake to keep both.

 

2) Later on, he says:

Quote

This remains a soft market that will turn away from the Colts without giving it a second thought.

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

[IinD]

20 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree with his general sentiment, but a couple of issues with the article.

1) The very first sentence:

Actually, yes, it did.  There were many people who thought it was a mistake to keep both.

 

2) Later on, he says:

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

Just in terms of the soft market part of the post...

 

I don't think he's knocking our fan base honestly. I think he's saying Indy fans won't pay for mediocrity LONG TERM. They'll find something better to spend there time and money on, which I feel is totally fine. I'm sure he said it knowing he'd get clicks for his article as well.

 

I remember in 06' flying in literally last minute to attend the KC wildcard game (tix were available still through tixmaster). To me that was our way of saying show me you're a good team or we won't come. Sure enough 2 weeks later I flew back in for the AFCCG and there wasn't much in terms of tickets available.

 

But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if attendance were to ever slide if this playoff drought got into 3,4 or 5 years because it'll force Jim to make changes.

 

We aren't the only fan base that applies to so I honestly don't think it was a jab. Nothing wrong if fans don't want to show up to watch bad football when they can hang with there friends or family on Sunday and just put the tv on.

 

If you want high attendance, you better win. Indy fans are within their rights to not show up if this bad play continues.

 

I don't think LOS will look like a museum, but I could surely see attendance slip.

[Patagonia Chris]

I think the fact that Jim Irsay isn't receiving at least some of the blame in this fiasco is perplexing. This is a man who could have literally hired anyone in the league for the GM position before the Colts drafted Luck. This was literally a dream job for anyone with GM aspirations. The Colts were gifted a once-in-a-generation QB for the second generation in a row, and yet here it is, going into year 6 of that QB staring a rebuild dead in the eye. UNREAL!

[chrisfarley]

I feel bad for the season ticket holders, they certainly have a right to be ticked at the product on the field and looking for a light at the end of this seemingly endless tunnel, seems hopeless.  Am I ticked? Who cares? Nobody does, and rightfully so, I choose to be a fan of this team for many reasons, and will continue to be through thick and thin, but I also have talked to some season ticket holders that feel like they get dumped on by the Colts organization and for reasons other than the product on the field.  Season ticket holders should be treated like kings and queens, they pay A LOT of bills. But this is adding insult to injury.  To the article;  Pagano had the deer in the headlights look dating back to our playoff game on the road with the Ravens.  Not saying that BA would have won, who could ever say.....but I think it would have given us better odds had he been at the helm,,,,he was sick, it wasn't meant to be.  God love Coach Pagano for overcoming cancer and doing so many good things on his journey with this team, and what a man for getting back on the field that year. He has shown a lot of class in Indy as a coach and as a community man. He HAS coached good games as he regularly pummeled the AFC South and won in the playoffs. I don't think he has the Midas touch with this team, and that's what it takes IMO in the NFL, whether that be a hard-hand forcing accountability, or a Dungy-like softer touch, or somewhere in the middle, it's just not working.  It's painful to watch, that's all, just painful.  Don't know the right solution, but everyone is entitled to their opinion...and I'll keep reading them all, for or against. (btw, I am not a season ticket holder, no one who lives in a van down by the river is)

[21isSuperman]

17 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

I think the fact that Jim Irsay isn't receiving at least some of the blame in this fiasco is perplexing. This is a man who could have literally hired anyone in the league for the GM position before the Colts drafted Luck. This was literally a dream job for anyone with GM aspirations. The Colts were gifted a once-in-a-generation QB for the second generation in a row, and yet here it is, going into year 6 of that QB staring a rebuild dead in the eye. UNREAL!

Irsay has received plenty of criticism from many people, including myself.  The difference between his position and that of Pagano or Grigson is that Pagano and Grigson can be easily fired, but getting rid of an owner is much more complex.  He's getting a lot of criticism, but Grigson and Pagano are easy to replace, and need to be replaced, so that's why there's more emphasis on them.

[AZColt11]

He's right.

[TDewar1987]

I'm not normally a Kravitz fan, but he isn't wrong. They both need to go. 

[gacoop1]

110% correct Bob Kravitz!.  If Irsay still doesn't see the inconsistency, bad decisions, bad coaching, bad drafts, especially coming from an analyst who agree pretty much what the fans have been seeing all along.  Then, Irsay deserves the cellar, and be the basement dweller for a long time....

[CF4L]

49 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

I think the fact that Jim Irsay isn't receiving at least some of the blame in this fiasco is perplexing. This is a man who could have literally hired anyone in the league for the GM position before the Colts drafted Luck. This was literally a dream job for anyone with GM aspirations. The Colts were gifted a once-in-a-generation QB for the second generation in a row, and yet here it is, going into year 6 of that QB staring a rebuild dead in the eye. UNREAL!

 

 

I don't think Luck is a once in a generation QB that was the problem right here everyone expected him to be Manning part 2 and he's not. Such unrealistic expectations.

 

He's good in his own right but he's not going to go down as a Top 10 QB of all time like Manning is.

 

I agree Jimbo IMO should get most of the blame. He chose to hitch his wagon onto Luck expecting him to be Manning part 2 and he hasn't lived up to that unrealistic expectation he's damn good but his career is shortening before our eyes.

[gacoop1]

With the right coach, GM, DC, OC on and on, Luck might still get to the promise land..

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I want pags gone too, I have for a long time.

But who replaces him? I know it would be hard to replace him with someone worse, but I don't want his replacement to be someone just marginally better.

We need a elite coach to take us where we want to go. I hope the timing will be right that a very good HC will be available when page gets let go.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I would be shocked if Irsay eats those contracts or if he fires either one of them. That is why I have never been on the tank train because I have thought rooting for us to lose will do no good in the end if that is your motive to get these guys fired. Yeah we may pick a few slots higher in the Draft but I would rather make the Playoffs if that is our only consolation. Irsay signed both to 4 year deals and bragged about how they would improve the team, so I just don't see it. Eating those contracts would make Irsay look bad. So not only do the people on the tank train wont have a Division winner - being able to enjoy some wins, they will be stuck with these 2 guys again next season is how I am looking at it.

[aReggie7]

I'm glad Kravitz wrote the article. Indy media is pretty finesse but feel what he wrote needed to be said.

 

I'm not as convinced as Doyel that (based on Irsay's recent comments) Pagano and Grigson are on their way out.

 

I'm hoping they are right and both Grigson/Pagano are fired come January. I fear that about the only way this happens is if something unexpected happens...like Nick Saban becoming interested in the Colts job or the Saints fire Sean Payton. Otherwise, I will not be shocked if we have another season of Grigson and Pagano.

[RockThatBlue]

29 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would be shocked if Irsay eats those contracts or if he fires either one of them. That is why I have never been on the tank train because I have thought rooting for us to lose will do no good in the end if that is your motive to get these guys fired. Yeah we may pick a few slots higher in the Draft but I would rather make the Playoffs if that is our only consolation. Irsay signed both to 4 year deals and bragged about how they would improve the team, so I just don't see it. Eating those contracts would make Irsay look bad. So not only do the people on the tank train wont have a Division winner - being able to enjoy some wins, they will be stuck with these 2 guys again next season is how I am looking at it.

I think the only way they are fired is if we lose the next three games. Otherwise they'll probably get next year. 

[Colts_Fan12]

3 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree with his general sentiment, but a couple of issues with the article.

1) The very first sentence:

Actually, yes, it did.  There were many people who thought it was a mistake to keep both.

 

2) Later on, he says:

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

Have to agree I wouldn't turn my back on them I'll just be * off that we suck I was a fan of the Pacers the whole time we were struggling I'll still be a Colts fan as well 

[Jdubu]

6 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree with his general sentiment, but a couple of issues with the article.

1) The very first sentence:

Actually, yes, it did.  There were many people who thought it was a mistake to keep both.

 

2) Later on, he says:

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

First of all, im not arguing or challenging you but I have to ask, do you live in Indy and are you a season ticket holder? While I am a season ticket holder, was before Manning, I live just a smudge over an hours drive to Indy and have attended probably 90% of all those games during this period, including several preseason games. 

 

Now I was pretty disgusted with the team in 2011, however, I understood what a first pick meant and that Manning probably wasn't coming back and if he did, was he going to be able to play? Now, forward to last years team and the start we had, God how awful that year was but most were happy to see Pep go and thoughts of Pagano and Grigs following him out at seasons end (although I'm more supportive now of keeping Grigs over Pagano). Of course we knew how everything went but we had some hope once a new group of what appeared on paper was brought in to help Pagano coach things he seemingly hadn't been able to do far. Well, watching this season, the defense has looked anemic and incapable too often in games and you have to wonder what scheme are they trying. You see an oline that still struggles to form a nice pocket around luck consistently and open any gaping holes to run a Mini Cooper through like our defense often gives opponents. Special teams downing punts, well as the writer said, "bless his heart". New highly respected strength and conditioning coach, same old injury riddled team if not even more. 

 

So with setting that up and you beliving that colts are deeply engrained in the team and won't leave them, I strongly disagree. While the "community" may love them, it's a softer market than many NFL cities who has had recent histories of a super bowl team. I thought about not renewing last year for my seats but felt a bit of hope with the changes and decided to hang on and watch for growth, I've seen a turd on the field covered with chocolate syrup to cover it up and hide what it really is. I've sold tickets on stubhub to whoever gets them for the first time ever, since 1995, and I've had the opportunity to sell these tickets for big bucks to premium games had I wanted over these years but held true to fandom. Season tickets for next season? Man I really don't know if I want to try this again with Pagano making game plans and in game decisions, at this point, he is what we thought he was. A below average NFL coach who is a super nice human being. 

 

I think if this team does nothing to excite this fragile, disappointed fan base between now and when season tickets money is due, I think your gonna see those tickets get into scalpers hands because fans aren't going to keep paying to hammer their heads into the floor watching insanity played out. 

[#12.]

"Soft market" was the wrong way to phrase it, but it is a small market - a small market team without Pittsburgh's or Green Bay's championship pedigree.  Unless the fans are looking up at 5 or 6 banners when they enter the stadium, you can't continue to give them Grigson level football and expect to keep your season ticket waiting list for long.  No more blackouts either.  No longer can you scare fans into buying tickets.  You have to actually give them a reason to come, and with Grigson and Chuck you are nearing the tipping point.  You would probably have to go back to the pre-Harbaugh years to see a similar low level of fan enthusiasm to that you will see in 2017 if Grigson and Chuck are retained. 

[tfunky14]

Yep, lets listen to a writer and fans who never played a down in the NFL.

[DougDew]

9 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

2) Later on, he says:

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

Its worse than ignorance.  Ignorance when you opine about something without knowledge of the subject.

 

Kravitz has been in Indy for at least 20 years and has plenty of knowledge.  He simply doesn't think well of us. He's an east coast, then rocky mountain, elitist who probably simply can't stand the midwest but holds his nose and lives here anyway as a career choice.

[tomloge]

11 hours ago, HarryTheCat said:

It's time for Irsay to blow it up and rebuild, starting with the 2017 draft. This team isn't even fun to watch on TV anymore, much less worth paying for season tickets. The product they're putting on the field just sucks, and most folks could make better use of their money.  

 

Just look at the draft picks since Grigson has been GM.  The Colts have had 38 draft picks since Grigson came to town, plus the one they blew on Trent Richardson, and you really have to stretch to find 6 or 7 "quality" starters in the bunch. When you go bust using three out of five of your first round picks for the likes Richardson, Werner, and Dorsett you'll never get there. I'm counting Ryan as a good pick, just because he's had a pretty good season, but time will tell. Grigson's record in FA is also equally dismal. 

 

You're so right about this team not even being fun to watch anymore.  I keep telling myself I'm not going to watch, and then I watch anyway and get all * off and bent out of shape.  I actually was glad they lost the game to Houston because they played so bad that they deserved to lose.  

[Restored]

10 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree with his general sentiment, but a couple of issues with the article.

1) The very first sentence:

Actually, yes, it did.  There were many people who thought it was a mistake to keep both.

 

2) Later on, he says:

In my opinion, that's downright ignorant.  People in Indy love the Colts.  Even if Pagano and Grigson are still around next year and the team has another 8-8 (or worse) season, the fans won't turn away from the team.  The Colts are very strongly ingrained into the community and it's foolish to suggest the fans will turn their backs on the team.  They'll be more angry and frustrated, but they won't forget about the the team completely.

 

Someone has addressed this point with you but I agree with Kravitz here. Fans will not hesitate to turn their backs on the team if it continues to struggle or even remain mediocre. I've been to a good number of games over the years and even when the team was playing well, there were still large packets of opposing fans at games (see 2013 KC playoff game).

[Defjamz26]

11 hours ago, DougDew said:

BTW, I'm not opposed to firing Grigs and/or Pagano, especially seeing that Chud has seemingly made little progress, but I' always critical of those who say to fire them based upon their lack of production.

 

You have to replace them with someone better.  That's the hard part.  Venting by firing is the easy part.  And to fire them because of the thought that anybody he hires to replace them could do better, think again. 

You have to fire them regardless of how the next person does. If they're not good they're not good. What are you going to say if the next coach/GM isn't good? "Oh man should've kept Pagano and Grigson ". You can settle for mediocrity because you fear less than mediocrity. Colts might have to suffer through some bad years to get it right.

[theanarchist]

I have to agree with Kravitz and Doyel. Sure, there's still an outside chance of making the playoffs. But the fact remains that 1) the offensive line continues to be a weak link 2) the defense has actually gotten worse or at very best not gotten any better in the time that Grigson and Pagano have been in charge. Grigson continues to miss on draft picks and Pagano has failed to motivate this team to play it's best when it counts.

 

As Kravitz points out, I would not trust Grigson with another off season. He's done nothing to prove he can make good personnel decisions and in my opinion this roster is so full of holes there's no way one off season will fix it.

 

Time to move on before Luck's career ends too soon

[John Waylon]

Yep, lets listen to a writer and fans who never played a down in the NFL.

Oh Christ... this again...

*

[Archangel]

2 hours ago, tfunky14 said:

Yep, lets listen to a writer and fans who never played a down in the NFL.

 

Yep never played a down in the NFL But a lot of the guys in this forum, pretty much new what needed to be done to beat the Texans. And the coaching staff did exactly the opposite. So if the Fans who never played a down saw this why did the coaches not see it. Just a observation from a loyal fan for many of years