In response to Luck holding ball to long....

[Indeee]

I see it stated many times in this forum and it is correct to some degree, however in yesterdays game for example on the broadcast, the tele-strator showed that No one is open!!

 

I have been saying this all year that this receiving corps can't get open CONSISTENTLY and then once in awhile when they do, everyone defends it by saying "they we're open today". In Moore's offense with Manning, our receivers we're open ALL the time!! But not now, and don't say we had Marvin and Reggie, because Collie, Stokely, Gonzo, Clark, Dilger, Pollard... these guys we're always open. In all honesty, besides TY, Doyle is the only one who can run a route and get open.

 

Yes, Luck should either Run or throw the ball away, when guys aren't open or maybe....

 

Luck just doesn't throw guys open at all. It also seems to me that he waits until the receivers break left or right and then throws it, usually into a blanketed receiver or slightly behind them as by that time he's getting hit or inches from being sacked and he's got to hurry at that moment.

 

And while we are at this, a lot falls on Chud, as Luck seems to be always taking seven step drops and receivers running 10+ yard routes behind and offensive line that can't hold up for more than 2 seconds before collapsing.

[Restored]

I would agree with this. The Manning-era offense consistently schemed to get WR's open and in space (rub routes, GOOD WR screens and slants). The offense needs to change going forward.

[Jdubu]

I concur here too. I have one example of holding on to that ball to long from yesterday. It was a route where TY ran from the left side, 5 yards up and then across to the right where Luck finally hit him in stride at about the point where TY cleared the right side of the offensive line area. That took time to develop. Why do we never have (insert player) run up 5 yards and cut in with Luck firing on a 3 step drop? This offensive philosophy is made for an offensive line who can block for an eternity and we can't hold for 3 seconds. I just do not understand how we can continue to do the same bad things over and over again with little to no success. Yes there are big chuck yardage had too but game sustaining drives consist of 5-6 yard chunk throws more consistently than big hitter chunk yards. These coaches are blinded by something. I just don't get how they can't develop better game plans and/or adjustments. 

 

Its like ok, the line isn't able to hold here against this defense, we bettter alter our route trees to 3-5 step drops and scrap the 7 yard drops altogether for now. Or hey, this line is holding very well today, let's stretch this field and give Luck the deeper patterns to get that chunk yardage going now. It's like the coaching brings the same gameplan to each game and just changes the names of the defenders they match up against. It's utterly amazing to see such trash plans. And if it's Luck not seeing his check downs or not truly capable of reading blitzes or inaccurate with timing and short routes, who is that on? 

[dw49]

6 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

I concur here too. I have one example of holding on to that ball to long from yesterday. It was a route where TY ran from the left side, 5 yards up and then across to the right where Luck finally hit him in stride at about the point where TY cleared the right side of the offensive line area. That took time to develop. Why do we never have (insert player) run up 5 yards and cut in with Luck firing on a 3 step drop? This offensive philosophy is made for an offensive line who can block for an eternity and we can't hold for 3 seconds. I just do not understand how we can continue to do the same bad things over and over again with little to no success. Yes there are big chuck yardage had too but game sustaining drives consist of 5-6 yard chunk throws more consistently than big hitter chunk yards. These coaches are blinded by something. I just don't get how they can't develop better game plans and/or adjustments. 

 

Its like ok, the line isn't able to hold here against this defense, we bettter alter our route trees to 3-5 step drops and scrap the 7 yard drops altogether for now. Or hey, this line is holding very well today, let's stretch this field and give Luck the deeper patterns to get that chunk yardage going now. It's like the coaching brings the same gameplan to each game and just changes the names of the defenders they match up against. It's utterly amazing to see such trash plans. And if it's Luck not seeing his check downs or not truly capable of reading blitzes or inaccurate with timing and short routes, who is that on? 

 

 

Yeah this (all of the above in this thread) is mostly true and bottom line is this coaching staff is not going to "out scheme " too many opponents . IMO , it's really that simple. 

[King Colt]

A QB must scan instead of staring at one spot on the field and must "hear" the stampede coming,. These are fundamentals of the position. It is called "pocket awareness". He does not have it.  

[buccolts]

Timing routes would help.

[tikyle]

You have to have an internal clock in your head.  If no one is open tuck and run or throw it away.  Live to play another down.  There is no excuse to hold the ball that long and then fumble from a hit from behind.  You've got to know pressure is coming after so many seconds.  That was an RG3/Jay Cutler mistake......

[Coffeedrinker]

I disagreed with the crew yesterday, when they showed that on the screen Dorsett and a TE were open in that example.  That is the biggest thing I see with Luck (I don't buy the nonsense that he doesn't have pocket awareness because he is very good in the pocket) but he seems to want the WR to be open before he throws it rather than anticipating that he will be open.

 

Not to compare him to Manning but that is the other QB I've watched the most.  But many times you would see him throw the ball before the WR started his break and because of that the DB did not have enough time to react.  Luck does not seem to do that.  Even with Hilton, whom he's been working with his entire career, he seems a fraction of a second slow on releasing the ball.

[21isSuperman]

The part about the WRs not getting open falls partly on the OC, in my opinion.  He should call plays that get the WRs open.  Call slants, screens, rub routes, etc.  Bunch your receivers so the DBs can't jam them.  There are ways to put your players in better positions than what our OC is currently doing.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

I agree OP. I just said this in another thread. Moncrief and Dorsett never get separation. 

[csmopar]

all of the above mentioned can be fixed.....with a proper coaching staff.  

[Nostrils]

2 hours ago, King Colt said:

A QB must scan instead of staring at one spot on the field and must "hear" the stampede coming,. These are fundamentals of the position. It is called "pocket awareness". He does not have it.  

 

 

Lol oh brother 

[tomloge]

Would be very cool if receivers could actually catch the ball.

[rockywoj]

Yup, the offensive scheming has been pretty much atrocious.  All of this 5 - 7 step drop stuff needs to change.  The Colts need to run a much "faster" offense, and there was a  point in the first half, I think it was early in the 2nd quarter, I was calling for the Colts to switch things up to no-huddle, to play with a sense of urgency on offense.  Nope, same plodding 7 drop crap or same telegraph the run alignment.

 

Gotta always spread the receivers and keep an RB in for play action.  Defenses cannot then commit to the pass or run, because each is always an option.  Also, with the defense spread to account for the receivers, this is when the Colts have had the most running success this year, by far.  Yet, as an example, on that 2nd and goal where the Colts went into nothing but a telegraphed run and were stymied for a couple yard loss, this showed once again how inept the short yardage play calling is.  For * SAKES, keep things spread out, make the defense account for both pass and run, and then see how the running game opens up when the OL actually does their job run blocking.  Vice versa, play-action pass is opened up as well.

 

I loathed Pep Hamilton and Chud is better than Pep, but the offensive game plans are still utter crap by my estimation.  Chud must go!

 

And would it kill the Colts if a play could be called, executed by Luck, where the ball gets into the hands of TY or Dorsett while they are in stride?  Look at yesterday's Dallas / Giants game ... Odell was hit in stride and he took it all the way.  That is the kind of big plays that happen when a play is schemed for a receiver being hit in stride, with the other receivers clearing out the zone due to their routes.

[Turftoe]

It seems to be a double edged sword.  The common complaint is he needs to run it or throw it away, which seems logical, however wasn't the risk of injury running the ball one of the big complaints after last year?  With a combination of a receiving corp that has trouble getting open and a propensity to drop balls the result will be (and has been) a lot of 3 and outs as opposed to turnovers - then we see our defense run out of gas and roll out the red carpet for the opposing offense.

 

The disgusting thing to me is that many of our core faults (i.e. offensive line, poor secondary) have existed since before Luck was even drafted, and yet we still lead the league in QB hits.  Remember in Manning's last season or so he was forced to make extremely quick throws (and fortunately he was outstanding at doing so, but that came with the price of occasionally getting a receiver killed going over the middle).

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I disagreed with the crew yesterday, when they showed that on the screen Dorsett and a TE were open in that example.  That is the biggest thing I see with Luck (I don't buy the nonsense that he doesn't have pocket awareness because he is very good in the pocket) but he seems to want the WR to be open before he throws it rather than anticipating that he will be open.

 

Not to compare him to Manning but that is the other QB I've watched the most.  But many times you would see him throw the ball before the WR started his break and because of that the DB did not have enough time to react.  Luck does not seem to do that.  Even with Hilton, whom he's been working with his entire career, he seems a fraction of a second slow on releasing the ball.

Yup.  Not that better offense scheming wouldn't help, or having receivers who are not so raw, but Luck holds the ball too long even when the receiver gets open.

[rockywoj]

13 minutes ago, Turftoe said:

... Remember in Manning's last season or so he was forced to make extremely quick throws (and fortunately he was outstanding at doing so, but that came with the price of occasionally getting a receiver killed going over the middle).

I do remember that very well and it sucked that he had to get rid of it so fast, but at least the plan adjusted for the fact that he'd get killed holding the ball any longer.  The current regime seems incapable of "adjusting" for skill reality.  This is a BIG disappointment.

 

I honestly wish Manning could be hired to be the OC.  I think he would RULE as an OC!

[Restored]

1 minute ago, rockywoj said:

I do remember that very well and it sucked that he had to get rid of it so fast, but at least the plan adjusted for the fact that he'd get killed holding the ball any longer.  The current regime seems incapable of "adjusting" for skill reality.  This is a BIG disappointment.

 

I honestly wish Manning could be hired to be the OC.  I think he would RULE as an OC!

 

Heck, I wouldn't mind him as GM either honestly.

[BCoop]

There is not a universe where Peyton Manning should come in as OC or GM right off the bat. That's just foolish management and for all of Irsay's warts, I think even he knows that.

 

Having said that, I would have absolutely no issue with Peyton coming in as a QB Consultant/Coach though. It doesn't even need to be full-time. Pay him to work with Andrew during the offseason and have intermittent contact throughout the year. Whatever it takes to get Luck out of his own head.

[RollerColt]

We've been talking about this issue for years. We've been talking about changing the offense for years. I doesn't come, despite having three different OCs. Still the same deep route wait-till-the-receiver-gets-open offense. It works great against teams like the Jets who have no secondary to speak of. It works great at fooling me into thinking we're special. We're special all right... 

 

I'm tired. And bored with it all. And really just tired... Maybe I should take a step back like Irsay and focus on my guitar playin'. 

[rockywoj]

7 minutes ago, BCoop said:

There is not a universe where Peyton Manning should come in as OC or GM right off the bat. That's just foolish management and for all of Irsay's warts, I think even he knows that.

 

Having said that, I would have absolutely no issue with Peyton coming in as a QB Consultant/Coach though. It doesn't even need to be full-time. Pay him to work with Andrew during the offseason and have intermittent contact throughout the year. Whatever it takes to get Luck out of his own head.

I agree about the GM part, but I disagree about the OC part.  It has been said many times that he was essentially an OC out there, for the latter parts of his career.  OC is basically what he has done for a very long time and I think there were / are very few better at it.  Manning is a god when it comes to offensive game planning and I cannot conceive of him not doing a great job of such, in a formalized role.   Still, all likely moot, as I cannot actually see him wanting to take on such a role.

[The Fish]

"I loathed Pep Hamilton and Chud is better than Pep"

 

 

That's like picking between losing a leg or an arm.

Neither seems to be a steady hand with the play calls and both had/have high risk/reward schemes that aren't well suited given the youth on the o-line and WR's that aren't getting open, going deep all of the time..

That's probably Chuck's offensive philosophy preference so they have to live with it to an extent- one could argue that since they can't really win running they have to take shots deep, still not a great excuse..

There's other way's to go about maximizing the offensive output, but for this season, it's 90% likely it's a triviality. 

 

Bad job done by more than a few people..

[Jdubu]

52 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

20 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

I agree about the GM part, but I disagree about the OC part.  It has been said many times that he was essentially an OC out there, for the latter parts of his career.  OC is basically what he has done for a very long time and I think there were / are very few better at it.  Manning is a god when it comes to offensive game planning and I cannot conceive of him not doing a great job of such, in a formalized role.   Still, all likely moot, as I cannot actually see him wanting to take on such a role.

Yup, the offensive scheming has been pretty much atrocious.  All of this 5 - 7 step drop stuff needs to change.  The Colts need to run a much "faster" offense, and there was a  point in the first half, I think it was early in the 2nd quarter, I was calling for the Colts to switch things up to no-huddle, to play with a sense of urgency on offense.  Nope, same plodding 7 drop crap or same telegraph the run alignment.

 

Gotta always spread the receivers and keep an RB in for play action.  Defenses cannot then commit to the pass or run, because each is always an option.  Also, with the defense spread to account for the receivers, this is when the Colts have had the most running success this year, by far.  Yet, as an example, on that 2nd and goal where the Colts went into nothing but a telegraphed run and were stymied for a couple yard loss, this showed once again how inept the short yardage play calling is.  For * SAKES, keep things spread out, make the defense account for both pass and run, and then see how the running game opens up when the OL actually does their job run blocking.  Vice versa, play-action pass is opened up as well.

 

I loathed Pep Hamilton and Chud is better than Pep, but the offensive game plans are still utter crap by my estimation.  Chud must go!

 

And would it kill the Colts if a play could be called, executed by Luck, where the ball gets into the hands of TY or Dorsett while they are in stride?  Look at yesterday's Dallas / Giants game ... Odell was hit in stride and he took it all the way.  That is the kind of big plays that happen when a play is schemed for a receiver being hit in stride, with the other receivers clearing out the zone due to their routes.

Exactly!!

 

1. eliminate the 7 yard drops altogether, we should had no plays made up for 7 steps, none.

2. we are not a power running team, stop trying to act like we can just man up

3. Chud is utter crud and needs gone asap!!

4. hit receivers in stride would be wonderful. I don't know if these ignorant coaches can't add them into the plan or if Luck shows no ability to hit receivers to a moving point??  

 

These are your points made, now can we just get them through the thick skulls of our coaching staff.

[Jdubu]

20 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

I agree about the GM part, but I disagree about the OC part.  It has been said many times that he was essentially an OC out there, for the latter parts of his career.  OC is basically what he has done for a very long time and I think there were / are very few better at it.  Manning is a god when it comes to offensive game planning and I cannot conceive of him not doing a great job of such, in a formalized role.   Still, all likely moot, as I cannot actually see him wanting to take on such a role.

I will definitely disagree that Manning would be or should be our new GM. I will say I would love to see him come aboard as either a OC, QB mentor or anything related to the offense. One thing Manning had was an offensive brain and it would be awesome to watch him orchestrate this teams offensive flaws into a strength. The questions are, can Manning translate his talent at the QB spot into play from someone else? Will his perfection and dedication to his craft translate over to others who may not want to put in the time that Manning may have dedicated to it? I would absolutely love to see a Marvin Harrison or Wayne come in to help these young receivers understand film and route running better and Manning to work with Luck understanding film study and recognition of things he may not be seeing and his coaches not understanding. Maybe these things just need explained differently for others to get the point or be able to see things they aren't seeing right now. There is certainly something very off with this team and nobody currently on the team has been able to unlock it yet.

[Valpo2004]

To be fair we did try some short yardage stuff and some timing routes today.

 

The results where fairly mixed though.

 

The first pick was a timing route and Dwayne Allen fell down on.  

 

TY was double teamed and neither Moncrief or Dorsett stepped up.  Moncrief got like 1 target so one has to assume he just wasn't getting open.  Dorsett got a few targets, got a good PI call but also dropped the ball at least twice.  

 

Allen dropped the ball.  Doyle wasn't that involved but I know he made at least one catch.  

[lollygagger8]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I disagreed with the crew yesterday, when they showed that on the screen Dorsett and a TE were open in that example.  That is the biggest thing I see with Luck (I don't buy the nonsense that he doesn't have pocket awareness because he is very good in the pocket) but he seems to want the WR to be open before he throws it rather than anticipating that he will be open.

 

Not to compare him to Manning but that is the other QB I've watched the most.  But many times you would see him throw the ball before the WR started his break and because of that the DB did not have enough time to react.  Luck does not seem to do that.  Even with Hilton, whom he's been working with his entire career, he seems a fraction of a second slow on releasing the ball.

 

I agree with you, but in fairness, Luck threw a pass to where Allen was supposed to be, except Allen was laying on the ground and it was an easy INT.

[chad72]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I disagreed with the crew yesterday, when they showed that on the screen Dorsett and a TE were open in that example.  That is the biggest thing I see with Luck (I don't buy the nonsense that he doesn't have pocket awareness because he is very good in the pocket) but he seems to want the WR to be open before he throws it rather than anticipating that he will be open.

 

Not to compare him to Manning but that is the other QB I've watched the most.  But many times you would see him throw the ball before the WR started his break and because of that the DB did not have enough time to react.  Luck does not seem to do that.  Even with Hilton, whom he's been working with his entire career, he seems a fraction of a second slow on releasing the ball.

 

After year 5, it's OK to compare him to Peyton. Luck has a better ceiling at times due to his legs but a lower floor than Peyton. I don't see a Peyton or Brady or even a Big Ben led team, even in a down offensive year, with the division possibly on the line, lose one at home like this. So, if we want to apply any of those comparisons for Luck, we should clearly put it on hold right now, IMO.

 

Practice is to develop those timing routes so that the ball is out before the break, not sure why it should even be second guessed with your No.1 wideout. That's something you may see with a rookie, the lack of trust and lack of reps and waiting for the wideout to get open. I really have no answers but to suggest the offensive system needs serious tweaks starting with the QB.

 

[VaAllDay757]

2 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

The part about the WRs not getting open falls partly on the OC, in my opinion.  He should call plays that get the WRs open.  Call slants, screens, rub routes, etc.  Bunch your receivers so the DBs can't jam them.  There are ways to put your players in better positions than what our OC is currently doing.

Yeah that's been a problem for a while they rarely call slants which is very effective against the defense they draw these long routes up and still expect them to get open without luck getting hit

[19colt]

2 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

The part about the WRs not getting open falls partly on the OC, in my opinion.  He should call plays that get the WRs open.  Call slants, screens, rub routes, etc.  Bunch your receivers so the DBs can't jam them.  There are ways to put your players in better positions than what our OC is currently doing.

Agree. Manning had the hottest streak of any QB of all time from 2013 to mid 2014 by throwing in a bunch of these type of plays with regular style passing plays. Now BB and Brady have copied that and added it to their own system and beat Seattle in the Superbowl in the process (with some help from injuries). If Chud/Luck could just add a little more of these type of plays to the repertoire it would make them far less predictable and help the OL in the process.    

[SilentHill]

4 hours ago, King Colt said:

A QB must scan instead of staring at one spot on the field and must "hear" the stampede coming,. These are fundamentals of the position. It is called "pocket awareness". He does not have it.  

 

Say what? Luck's pocket awareness is one of the best in the league, and I think he is reading his progressions well. The flaw here is that he can't throw the ball until the WR are open, and I'm not sure that's on him. It could be any number of flaws by Luck the Receivers or the Coaches and we just don't know.

[King Colt]

1 hour ago, SilentHill said:

 

Say what? Luck's pocket awareness is one of the best in the league, and I think he is reading his progressions well. The flaw here is that he can't throw the ball until the WR are open, and I'm not sure that's on him. It could be any number of flaws by Luck the Receivers or the Coaches and we just don't know.

His pocket awareness is non-existent because he gets whacked from behind from the front and from the side. A QB has two jobs, find a receiver and avoid sacks. Notice when Luck gets sacked there are always more than one defense player there proving he his numb to the attackers. Recall he used to help the defense players up after the crushed him. I think he has stopped that finally.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

If I remember correctly, polian always stressed drafting highly skilled WRs when it came to route running. Marvin was the best, but they all were at least decent at it. Our guys may have straight line speed but idk about much else. 

[Superman]

8 hours ago, 12to13 said:

I agree OP. I just said this in another thread. Moncrief and Dorsett never get separation. 

 

That's not true, but you could say it about Deandre Hopkins. You can throw receivers open.

[Superman]

11 hours ago, Indeee said:

the tele-strator showed that No one is open!!

 

I'm going to pull some screenshots of yesterday's game, because it's not just about people not getting open. It's about the routes being run against these coverages, and some of it has to do with the blocking schemes. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, King Colt said:

His pocket awareness is non-existent because he gets whacked from behind from the front and from the side. A QB has two jobs, find a receiver and avoid sacks. Notice when Luck gets sacked there are always more than one defense player there proving he his numb to the attackers. Recall he used to help the defense players up after the crushed him. I think he has stopped that finally.

 

Whether or not Luck helps defenders up has nothing to do with anything.

 

And when a guy is holding on to the ball as long as he can his pocket awareness is fine.    He is ricking everything to try and make plays.       If Andrew Luck doesn't make plays,  the team is dead in the water.

 

This observation about more than one defender around him is simply more nonsense....    I don't know where you get this from....

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

That's not true, but you could say it about Deandre Hopkins. You can throw receivers open.

I exaggerated by saying never, but they don't seem to get open alot when I watch the games. I see luck observe the field left to right and not have anyone to throw too. 

[Luck2Hilton4TD]

It's a combination of factors. Luck personally, receivers not getting open, and play calling that too often emphasizes deep throws. 

[a06cc]

Luck is holding onto the ball to long. There is no way anyone can sit here and say otherwise. They had a clock on national television timing his throws this season. 2.9 seconds on one play. Throwing deep downfield 5.3 seconds. It's the scheme we're running. It's downfield big plays. Luck is waiting for guys to get open by a huge margin before throwing the ball. He needs to throw them open instead. Anticipate that his man will be open. That was seen on our 96 yard drive that put us up 24-10 in Greenbay. 

[Jules]

12 hours ago, buccolts said:

Timing routes would help.

 

You are hired.

 

You want to coach?

[Indyfan4life]

12 hours ago, King Colt said:

A QB must scan instead of staring at one spot on the field and must "hear" the stampede coming,. These are fundamentals of the position. It is called "pocket awareness". He does not have it.  

Oh jeez.