Punt play fail (merge)

[Myles]

the point is

Nothing bad happens if whalen doesn't screw up. It is that simple. Nothing else needs to be said. Nothing.

 

Nothing happens if Pagano doesn't allow a WR under center with a safety as QB and no offensive line.

Let's get to the root of the problem.

[Bubbz]

Pagano took the blame for it because he's the head coach. He didn't draw the play up. Pagano has never worked STs. McMahon has worked STs for 15 years. Do you think Pagano walked in the STs meeting, grabbed the dry erase marker away from McMahon and designed this play himself?

 

Like I've said already, this play isn't anything new. It has a lot of different wrinkles and variations, but it's been around for a long time. Pagano didn't invent it, and probably had little to do with it's design and implementation. McMahon coaches STs. It's his job.

 

It's the same as the offense running a double pass or something. You wouldn't assume that Pagano designed and called that. He doesn't call plays.

Ive never seen any other team line up with one center and one qb and snap the ball with 3 defenders right there. That seems relatively new. Again, you keep reiterating that the ball was never meant to be snapped and i get that but...

 

1) Anyone can tell that play is dead in the water from the start since the qb is lined up under center, no one is jumping offsides. The play design is completely terrible, that falls on the coaches including Pagano.

 

2) The team is too undisciplined to even line up on the LOS. The whole line wasnt lined up correctly. thats on the coaches, including pagano

 

3) I sincerely doubt special teams coaches choose whether or not to run onsides kicks, fake punts, etc. Especially at a critical moment in the game. If an offensive coordinator doesnt choose whether or not to go for it on 4th downs, why would a special teams coach have that type of power to change the course of a game. Thats highly unlikely. I believe Pagano called that play. He may have not designed it, but he was stupid enough to know about it and call it. 

 

4) He didnt take blame for it just because hes the head coach. He admitted they didnt go over it well enough in practice and that this was his fault. That certainly sounds like he was the one choosing to run the play and the fault is at his feet. Head coaches dont always take the wrap for every failure just because they are the head coach.

 

Basically, i think pagano deserves as much blame for that fiasco as Whalen or anyone else, maybe more.

[pacolts56]

Better than a Ken Burns Civil War documentary PAC56! As a historian myself this post cracked me up! 

 

 

Last night's loss feels like a death in the family, but with any downfall comes rebirth & resurrection as well my friend. 

It ain't easy but I'm trying to look at the bright side, SW1...and I actually think the team will rally off the Pats game.

 

Throw out the punt fail and 2-3 of those holding penalties and IMO, it was probably their best played game this year given the opposition.

[southwest1]

If anyone is even still reading this...

 

The worst part of this play was not the play or the real time consequences or the loss or the tough questions directly after the game.  It isn't hearing every single radio or TV sports show just RIP the Colts a new one over and over and over for the play into the ground.  It wasn't my friends at the game who immediately posted a MEME of them raising a banner in Lucas Oil with the recognition of this being where the worst play in NFL history occurred on SNF.   Nope. 

 

The worst part has been watching the 24 hour news channel shows ALSO covering it in between their *ic political coverage as if this were a world news story and hearing them all weigh in on it as if they even know what a football is.  

 

Ack. 

 

PS: I think the real hope for this play was to catch them with 12 people on the field.  Whalen simply panicked as the play clock was running down.  I haven't heard from him as to why he snapped it.  Has anyone heard yet? Was he made available for questions?  

Forget what the media is saying JPF. I've been called stupid before many times. The key is to either ignore it or embrace it. People expect us to lower our heads in shame & humiliation. Don't give them the satisfaction. Just admit it wasn't our finest hour on the field, but we will use this debacle as fuel to show the rest of the NFL landscape that the Colts are far from distraught, demoralized, & done. People respect you when you stand up for yourself, admit the obvious, don't take any unnecessary crap from anybody, & refuse to quit. 

 

So ESPN or any other network can mock us to their hearts content. To quote "Gone With The Wind" also from the Civil War era "Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn" what jokes media outlets say about my Colts because I will still support them tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade, & next century. 

[southwest1]

It ain't easy but I'm trying to look at the bright side, SW1...and I actually think the team will rally off the Pats game.

 

Throw out the punt fail and 2-3 of those holding penalties and IMO, it was probably their best played game this year given the opposition.

I read ya PAC & I certainly understand the cathartic need to scream, swear, & lash out in a somewhat constructive, non lethal way. Some people run, some people box, some people immerse themselves in video games, music, or hunting wild game. We are all royally ticked off right now because that's the closest INDY under the Luck regime has ever come to making NE fans worry briefly over how tight that game actually was. 

 

Yes, NE ultimately won & there are no participation ribbons in professional sports. You either win or you don't. I get that. You are right though. That's probably the most complete game I've seen us play all year minus the special teams mishap anyway. It hurts like hades right now yes, but like a breakup with each day the intensity of the sting begins to subside or fade in magnitude. Hang in there brother. This symbolic thorn in our collective Colt sides will pass.  

[dudeski]

If they'd just punted like normal...n Whalen wouldn't have been in the position to screw up in the first place. ......

if they don't play the games we would never lose. Your logic is astounding

[ColtsBlueFL]

FWIW, Chris Berman just said that the play actually was legal.  The alignment.

 

So that means the officials penalized it wrongly.  I wouldn't put it past them.

 

I would like to know from some of the film/rules experts if it actually was a legal alignment, not wanting to soley rely upon the official's call.

 

Sorry, Berman is wrong and the refs get it right, as they usually (but not always) do. See the alignment below-

 

 

Whalen is center and that sets line of scrimmage. {Green and Yellow arrows}  Boomstick is under Gold arrow, in punt formation, but 5 yards off the sideline.  The other players line up off to the right, but all of the are off of the line of scrimmage {Red and Orange arrows} . That is the first mistake, and thus a penalty and no real need to point out the other issues. The rules call for at least 7 on the line, with an eligible number on each end, or an ineligible number that has declared eligible. I'm not sure that is met either. So 2 items make it illegal. Doesn't matter, water under the bridge.  Time to move on.

[dudeski]

Nothing happens if Pagano doesn't allow a WR under center with a safety as QB and no offensive line.

Let's get to the root of the problem.

yes let's

Whalen snapped the ball. That was the only problem. That was the mistake. Nothing else. Just the simple fact that he snapped the ball. If he doesn't do that then there is no discussion. But he did

That is the mistake. Mind numbingly stupid mistake by 1 person. griff whalen. Nobody else. That is the fact here.

[RockThatBlue]

If they'd just punted like normal...n Whalen wouldn't have been in the position to screw up in the first place. ......

Kind of sad that this even needs to be explained.

[RockThatBlue]

if they don't play the games we would never lose. Your logic is astounding

[ColtsBlueFL]

That is wrong.   Pagano said that the play allows to snap the ball if 12 defenders are on the field or if the defensive alignment is right.  

 

Pagano allowed a screwball play to happen when it was not ready for game action.  

 

I can see a snap allowed if 1 or > men on the field, 2 on two at the center.  My feelings, once Pats D saw the alignment and readjusted, someone on the Pats simulated the snap count (An illegal item worthy of a penalty too); probably just yelled 'Hut!' and Whalen bit, thinking it was Andesosn.  Looking at my pic above, there wasn't an official within 15 yards of the center, so easy for a Pats defender to try that.

[dudeski]

why is this being discussed?

Because whalen snapped the ball. If he didn't do that, there is no discussion.

[Superman]

That is wrong.   Pagano said that the play allows to snap the ball if 12 defenders are on the field or if the defensive alignment is right.  

 

Pagano allowed a screwball play to happen when it was not ready for game action.  

 

The ball was not supposed to be snapped. Set everything else aside, the alignment, the matchups, the personnel... when the ball was snapped, it was a mistake. 

 

This isn't that hard to understand. They didn't get the look they were hoping for, and from that point, the play was supposed to be dead. Try to draw them offsides, and if not, take the penalty and punt. DON'T SNAP THE BALL. 

[Superman]

Ive never seen any other team line up with one center and one qb and snap the ball with 3 defenders right there. That seems relatively new. Again, you keep reiterating that the ball was never meant to be snapped and i get that but...

 

1) Anyone can tell that play is dead in the water from the start since the qb is lined up under center, no one is jumping offsides. The play design is completely terrible, that falls on the coaches including Pagano.

 

2) The team is too undisciplined to even line up on the LOS. The whole line wasnt lined up correctly. thats on the coaches, including pagano

 

3) I sincerely doubt special teams coaches choose whether or not to run onsides kicks, fake punts, etc. Especially at a critical moment in the game. If an offensive coordinator doesnt choose whether or not to go for it on 4th downs, why would a special teams coach have that type of power to change the course of a game. Thats highly unlikely. I believe Pagano called that play. He may have not designed it, but he was stupid enough to know about it and call it. 

 

4) He didnt take blame for it just because hes the head coach. He admitted they didnt go over it well enough in practice and that this was his fault. That certainly sounds like he was the one choosing to run the play and the fault is at his feet. Head coaches dont always take the wrap for every failure just because they are the head coach.

 

Basically, i think pagano deserves as much blame for that fiasco as Whalen or anyone else, maybe more.

 

1) That's fine. You didn't get the look you needed. Try to get them to jump, and if not, take the delay of game. 

 

2) I wonder if there was supposed to be another shift. Probably not, but it's possible that we didn't even see the final formation. http://impossible.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Final-Form.jpgEither way, big problems with that play.

 

3) Pagano probably gave them the go-ahead to try something there. And he obviously saw it during practice. But he didn't say 'hey, let's try that trick play right here.' He doesn't call plays.

 

4) Coachspeak. 

 

End of the day, we all know that Whalen wasn't supposed to snap the ball, right? Everyone is so eager to see someone lose their job that you guys won't admit the simple fact that, with 1 second left on the play clock, #17 made a huge mistake. Yes, there's a major coaching fail (alignment, awareness, execution), but at the end of the day, the ball wasn't supposed to be snapped, and everyone but Whalen knew it.

[JPFolks]

Forget what the media is saying JPF. I've been called stupid before many times. The key is to either ignore it or embrace it. People expect us to lower our heads in shame & humiliation. Don't give them the satisfaction. Just admit it wasn't our finest hour on the field, but we will use this debacle as fuel to show the rest of the NFL landscape that the Colts are far from distraught, demoralized, & done. People respect you when you stand up for yourself, admit the obvious, don't take any unnecessary crap from anybody, & refuse to quit. 

 

So ESPN or any other network can mock us to their hearts content. To quote "Gone With The Wind" also from the Civil War era "Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn" what jokes media outlets say about my Colts because I will still support them tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade, & next century. 

I guess I didn't get my point across well enough.  I was trying to basically agree with you while pointing out the *ic coverage of it all ad nauseum by the media including the laughable political news people trying to weigh in as if they had a clue.  As I said on the bottom, I think they just wanted to see if they could catch NE off guard for once and of course they couldn't.  Sure, they didn't line up right, but the actual call wasn't such a tragedy as so many people who should know better suggested.  It was just very poorly executed and no worse than any other play where someone does something stupid to cause a turnover which is basically what it was.   I personally would have rather seen them just be aggressive and go for it with a much high chance if they were so inclined. We'd only stopped them once I think at that point from scoring so it was clear we needed to keep on scoring.  

 

On a different note, I WAS annoyed when they kept insisting that deferring to the second half was Belichick's sole idea blah blah blah.  I recall Manning doing it and always thought he was the first to regularly do it.  Perhaps Manning wasn't first, but they put the rule in so someone else other than Belichick was the first to think of the benefit to it.  Hell, I even do it when playing Madden. It is a no brainer and I am always surprised when a team takes the ball to start.   

[Superman]

What coach would want to start with a trash team when there's a good team that needs a coach just as bad? How wasn't they disciplined? It wasn't like they led the league in penalties or had alot of off field issues

 

How wasn't they disciplined???

 

First of all, they were always a moderately penalized team, with a couple seasons in the top ten in penalties. Secondly, penalties aren't the only determining factor for whether a team is disciplined. Within three years, their defense had eroded, and they were near the bottom in the league in turnover margin.

 

But more importantly, they just weren't a good team. After the SB, they were 45-51, went to the playoffs two times out of six years, and never won another playoff game.

 

The fact that Gruden won a SB 13 years ago isn't a good reason to want him to be your coach. 

[Superman]

Why try that play to begin with? Anyone can recognize that the play wasn't going to work and no one is jumping offsides in that situation. It's just a stupid play to begin with which falls on the coaches even if the ball was never meant to be snapped

 

Stop moving the goal posts. There was no reason to call a timeout. The ball wasn't supposed to be snapped.

[csmopar]

if they don't play the games we would never lose. Your logic is astounding

And yours is just mind numbingly dumb

[csmopar]

Kind of sad that this even needs to be explained.

Guess some people need it broken down to barney level

[chrisfarley]

I don't understand why people are acting as if its the worst play ever or something, plays like these have happened before

 

when did this happen?

[jszfunk]

  I am just wondering since  that botched play on Sunday and the way the season has been going if the players will start to lose faith in the coaching staff and start to tune them out and just be done.

 

  I Know they like him as a coach(players coach) and I  like the guy too,  but what  happened the other night would baffle me as a player, as "what the heck are we doing" and maybe start to question the intelligence, direction and guidance of this team.

 

  This  season has been a regression so far and does not make sense. That was probably the death knell for this coaching staff the other night.   I know its early , but we are almost at the half way point.

 

There have been improvements, but a lot of questions still remain.  Andrew really has not looked good all season(even before the injury) long except for that 4th quarter  a few weeks ago and the first half on Sunday were he was really on his game. Strange......

[csmopar]

I don't understand why people are acting as if its the worst play ever or something, plays like these have happened before

 

 

 

The big differences on this attempt is A:)  Washington was down 24 - 0, (Point B) with 2 seconds left before half, meaning if they screwed it up, barring a run back(which did happen), the other team wouldn't have had a chance to run a play.  Point C: once they shifted the formation, they didn't wait 30 seconds for the defense to line up and figure out what was going on.

 

 

Theres a time and place for gimmick plays.  You don't try a play your players have never actually done before, in a 1 score game in the 3RD QUARTER!!!!  If he'd tried this before the half or even later in the 4th, that's one thing.  But all he did was give NE perfect field position and a TD

[Myles]

The ball was not supposed to be snapped. Set everything else aside, the alignment, the matchups, the personnel... when the ball was snapped, it was a mistake. 

 

This isn't that hard to understand. They didn't get the look they were hoping for, and from that point, the play was supposed to be dead. Try to draw them offsides, and if not, take the penalty and punt. DON'T SNAP THE BALL. 

Pagano himself said that the play allowed for the ball to be snapped.   He did NOT say that the ball was not to be snapped under any circumstance.  

That's the issue I had with the play.  It was left up to a WR and a safety to diagnose the defense on the play.   Anyone feel comfortable with Colt Anderson counting the defensive players?

[SilentHill]

no its paganos responsibility to see that not only our team is lined up wrong but that the patriots aren't showing the desired look and call a timeout while theres still a couple seconds on the gameclock

--but he is responsible for not immediately calling a timeout as soon as we lined up illegally

 

Why? The plan was to take a delay of game.

[Myles]

yes let's

Whalen snapped the ball. That was the only problem. That was the mistake. Nothing else. Just the simple fact that he snapped the ball. If he doesn't do that then there is no discussion. But he did

That is the mistake. Mind numbingly stupid mistake by 1 person. griff whalen. Nobody else. That is the fact here.

The snap would not have happened if Pagano would not have allowed a poor play to be run.   The gimmick play was not ready to be used in a game.  

Whalen did not understand how to run it.  Anderson did not understand how to run it.   The rest of the team did not understand how to run it.  

[Myles]

Why? The plan was to take a delay of game.

That is not correct.   The plan was to see if they could get the Pats with 12 men on the field, to get a favorable match up or to take the delay of game.  

[dudeski]

The snap would not have happened if Pagano would not have allowed a poor play to be run. The gimmick play was not ready to be used in a game.

Whalen did not understand how to run it. Anderson did not understand how to run it. The rest of the team did not understand how to run it.

non issue until whalen snapped the ball.

[Myles]

non issue until whalen snapped the ball.

Non issue until Pagano let the play be put into place.

 

Do you believe the play called for Anderson to yell "DON'T SNAP THE BALL" if a snap wasn't needed?

If that was really the plan, this play was even more not ready than most of us think.

[krunk]

The most suicidal thing about this play is we were attempting it from our own 35 yard line. This guy needs to stop panicking and just trust the defense. This year its the fake punt and in last years regular season game I thought he panicked late in the 3rd or 4th quarter going for it on our own 20 to 35 yard line only being down 14.

[Valpo2004]

[tfunky14]

Nope

[PeterBowman]

players have stated many times that they'd run through a wall for Chuck....so that's not it.

 

this is more on Pep and Luck's mental regressions (though overall he was much better this last game)...he's still forcing too much at times and not taking what the D gives. There's more than enough talent on this offense to take advantage of it.

[OffensivelyPC]

LOL this is awesome.

[2006Coltsbestever]

LOL this is awesome.

LOL, yeah I used to play that game until my hands became numb. YouTube has a lot of simulations including the Reggie catch to beat the Pats in 2009.

[sfergson727]

I know I have lost faith in the coaching staff, but I suspect the players, most of them anyway, are still on board.  Any more bone head calls like we saw on Sunday night and that is subject to change.

[SilentHill]

That is not correct.   The plan was to see if they could get the Pats with 12 men on the field, to get a favorable match up or to take the delay of game.  

 

So, when the favorable matchup didn't happen....... the plan was to take the delay of game. Not snap the ball.

[Myles]

So, when the favorable matchup didn't happen....... the plan was to take the delay of game. Not snap the ball.

Who was in charge of counting the Pats players?

Was the play designs for Anderson (a safety) to yell "DON'T SNAP THE BALL" if they only had 11 men on the field?

[Myles]

That is so awesome.  

I played that game so much.   Best sports game ever.

You can still play it here:

http://www.8bbit.com/play/tecmo-super-bowl/883

 

I used to like to hit the other team after they scored.   Sometimes they would get injured.  

[bluephantom87]

players have stated many times that they'd run through a wall for Chuck....so that's not it.

 

this is more on Pep and Luck's mental regressions (though overall he was much better this last game)...he's still forcing too much at times and not taking what the D gives. There's more than enough talent on this offense to take advantage of it.

They said the same about Caldwell too which is why he got the job in the first place! Dungy raved about how the players loved Caldwell. Irsay agreed and talked about familiarity on going with the decision to hire him as hc. Nice guy; subpar coach who had the luxury of having Peyton. Yeah he won a SB as the Raven oc which led to the Lions job but I saw on a interview with Flacco asking why it clicked with Jim instead of Cam as oc and Flacco said they kept the SAME playbook, ran the SAME plays but Caldwell allowed him to call the plays based on what he saw on the field. Now the Lions are a passive underachieving team that loves its hc....

[SilentHill]

Who was in charge of counting the Pats players?

Was the play designs for Anderson (a safety) to yell "DON'T SNAP THE BALL" if they only had 11 men on the field?

 

I'm not sure, and I'm not going to speculate. These are PROFESSIONAL football players, they are not stupid.