Punt play fail (merge)

[2006Coltsbestever]

That is so awesome.  

I played that game so much.   Best sports game ever.

You can still play it here:

http://www.8bbit.com/play/tecmo-super-bowl/883

 

I used to like to hit the other team after they scored.   Sometimes they would get injured.  

That game and Madden 96 for Sega. I used to play with Dallas just to see if I could go undefeated in season mode on Madden 96. That was the first Madden where the AI was really great and the defenses were tight/picking off passes. I actually had to run Emmitt a bunch because when against the computer if I went to Irvin too much they would pick me off. I had it on the hardest level when I played.

[Myles]

I'm not sure, and I'm not going to speculate. These are PROFESSIONAL football players, they are not stupid.

but the coach is

[Myles]

I don't think it is realistic to believe that the drawn up play called for the safety playing QB to say "SNAP THE BALL" if the WR playing center is supposed to hike the ball or say "DON'T SNAP THE BALL" if he isn't. 

 

How would yelling "DON'T SNAP THE BALL" help draw the other team offsides?   It would be counter productive.

[jszfunk]

They said the same about Caldwell too which is why he got the job in the first place! Dungy raved about how the players loved Caldwell. Irsay agreed and talked about familiarity on going with the decision to hire him as hc. Nice guy; subpar coach who had the luxury of having Peyton. Yeah he won a SB as the Raven oc which led to the Lions job but I saw on a interview with Flacco asking why it clicked with Jim instead of Cam as oc and Flacco said they kept the SAME playbook, ran the SAME plays but Caldwell allowed him to call the plays based on what he saw on the field. Now the Lions are a passive underachieving team that loves its hc....

Yeah .. I think some coaches might be more suitable to be an OC or DC, instead of a head. Nothing wrong with that

[OffensivelyPC]

LOL, yeah I used to play that game until my hands became numb. YouTube has a lot of simulations including the Reggie catch to beat the Pats in 2009.

Yeah I did too.  I miss all those old games.  Even the old Maddens on Super Nintendo were good.  I sitll have Madden 96.

[OffensivelyPC]

That game and Madden 96 for Sega. I used to play with Dallas just to see if I could go undefeated in season mode on Madden 96. That was the first Madden where the AI was really great and the defenses were tight/picking off passes. I actually had to run Emmitt a bunch because when against the computer if I went to Irvin too much they would pick me off. I had it on the hardest level when I played.

PA Streaks and Sweep Right are the only plays you need lol.  I didn't see that you mentioned Madden 96 before I posted my previous response.  I remember one time I played 15 minute quarters just to see how many yards passing/running I could get in one game.  I can't remember how many yards/TDs everyone had, but it was practically like a full season's worth of stats in one game.

[IndyTrav]

This is still a debate?!

 

Everyone is to blame......

 

The ST coach for calling it on the 35.

Every Coach and Player on the sideline and in the game that didn't call TO when it was immediately known it wasnt going to work. 

Whalen for snapping it

Anderson for giving him someone to snap it too

 

 

 

The best (worst?) part is we tried to outcoach Bill B, and his team looked intelligent and disciplined on the play, and we became a national laughing stock......If your gonna go at the champ, don't trip over your own feet and knock yourself out on the way to the ring.....

[Surge89]

They said the same about Caldwell too which is why he got the job in the first place! Dungy raved about how the players loved Caldwell. Irsay agreed and talked about familiarity on going with the decision to hire him as hc. Nice guy; subpar coach who had the luxury of having Peyton. Yeah he won a SB as the Raven oc which led to the Lions job but I saw on a interview with Flacco asking why it clicked with Jim instead of Cam as oc and Flacco said they kept the SAME playbook, ran the SAME plays but Caldwell allowed him to call the plays based on what he saw on the field. Now the Lions are a passive underachieving team that loves its hc....

 

They also said that about Dungy too lol... Oh the trend.

[2006Coltsbestever]

PA Streaks and Sweep Right are the only plays you need lol.  I didn't see that you mentioned Madden 96 before I posted my previous response.  I remember one time I played 15 minute quarters just to see how many yards passing/running I could get in one game.  I can't remember how many yards/TDs everyone had, but it was practically like a full season's worth of stats in one game.

I always went 5 minute Qtrs

[NYCfan]

Pagano just said that they wanted to line up and see if they could have confused NE. Depending on NE's formation, they would've snapped the ball and ran the play, otherwise, they wanted to try to draw the defense off side. He said the ball should not have been snapped and they would've just taken the delay of game.

 

It was a trick play, (horrible play call in that situation) thus no need for Luck and his hard count. Everyone would've seen that coming. Also, his hard count did not draw anyone off side all night.

So, in other words, he was trying to "Out-Belichick" Belichick.

Probably not a good idea.

[DougDew]

The ball wasn't supposed to be snapped. That much is undeniable. No need to burn a timeout if you're already resigned to the five yard penalty, and they obviously were. Except Whalen.

If we are going to blame the snapper and not the coach, go look at the tape of Pagano's reaction when Colt and Griff come off the field.  Pags lets Griff go by him first, and focuses on Colt, asking him why he snapped the ball.  Then, as if Colt says "I didn't", Pags turns to look for Griff who has already walked far away.

 

Either Pags thinks Colt is responsible for calling for the snap, or he had no idea which player was playing C and which one was QB. 

[NYCfan]

Well, just watching that play killed 2/3rds of my brain cells.......

 

 

But no, the play wasn't for penalties, wasn't for 12 men, it was designed as a homerun/dagger play.

 

Below is how it was supposed to work....provided the pats lined up right. But they didnt so Pags should have at least called time out.  But before that, it never should have been called, especially with 2 players not used to handling those types of plays.  If Pat had been the caller or if he'd tucked it and ran and failed, thats one thing.  But this play was the dumbest play in NFL history.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/10/19/maine-football-trolls-colts-twitter/

Yes.  that is, I believe, how the play is supposed to work.  The "punter/QB" is not supposed to line up under center, but to be in a shotgun position.  Moving the rest of the line (properly lined up!) to the far side is supposed to confuse the D and give the guy who receives the snap room to roam.  In the play as run by the team from Maine, the D only has one guy over the center with everyone else running left (right) to cover the "Student Body Left" move of the rest of the O.  Result: easy score.  

 

If you look at how the Patriots lined up, there were three or four guys over the center.  

 

Scary thought?  Belichick had actually coached the D to be ready for this play (the Maine connection makes that all the more probable) and he was probably amazed that the "QB" was under center and not in the shotgun or punt position like he should have been...not to mention amazed that the Colts gifted him with an illegal formation.  But, remember that there are tapes of Malcolm Butler being coached during game week on the identical pick play run by the Seahawks at the end of SB XLXIX.  So, nothing is out of the question.

 

Whenever the Patriots play in Denver, I sometimes think that Belichick coaches his D to be ready for the Broncos to bring their mascot horse onto the field in formation:  "OK, Gronk, if they bring in the horse, you go in for Butler and cover the pony."

[Susie Q]

So, in other words, he was trying to "Out-Belichick" Belichick.

Probably not a good idea.

^^^ Agree ^^^  Especially when Belichick is smarter than Pagano at coaching. 

[DougDew]

 

1) Anyone can tell that play is dead in the water from the start since the qb is lined up under center, no one is jumping offsides. The play design is completely terrible, that falls on the coaches including Pagano.

 

You are exactly correct.  The design of the play itself removed all threat that it was going to make three yards.  Therefore, the Pats were not concerned, and had no confusion or sense of urgency at all, which is needed for someone to jump off sides.

 

No professionally coached team would have left Colt Anderson and Griff uncovered.  No coach fails to cover the ball with defenders. The designer of the play should know this.  They should know that no defense would leave it uncovered, and would not be concerned about stopping a small safety from getting three yards with a single WR as a blocker. 

 

Griff should not have snapped it, but the play itself and 0% chance of succeeding and should not have been designed that way (maybe it wasn't and a lot of players were confused, which points to Grigs comments about not practicing it enough during the week)

[Bubbz]

1) That's fine. You didn't get the look you needed. Try to get them to jump, and if not, take the delay of game. 

 

2) I wonder if there was supposed to be another shift. Probably not, but it's possible that we didn't even see the final formation. http://impossible.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Final-Form.jpgEither way, big problems with that play.

 

3) Pagano probably gave them the go-ahead to try something there. And he obviously saw it during practice. But he didn't say 'hey, let's try that trick play right here.' He doesn't call plays.

 

4) Coachspeak. 

 

End of the day, we all know that Whalen wasn't supposed to snap the ball, right? Everyone is so eager to see someone lose their job that you guys won't admit the simple fact that, with 1 second left on the play clock, #17 made a huge mistake. Yes, there's a major coaching fail (alignment, awareness, execution), but at the end of the day, the ball wasn't supposed to be snapped, and everyone but Whalen knew it.

1) youre never going to get a favorable look from that play, so pretty much its just an automatic delay of game

 

3) Well in my opinion, I think pagano said exactly what you have in quotes. His quote from the press conference and just the way he said it makes me think he had the team practice this play (not enough admittedly) and he called the play. Again, a special teams coach isnt given that type of sphere of influence that could change the momentum of a game.

 

4) In this case, I honestly dont think this was coach speak. Pagano has seemed to be a little less PC and more ballsy by his standards in press conferences this year. I think he was being legit.

 

I dont have that big a problem with Pagano, I've never stated< "pagano needs to be fired because of this play" like a lot of people here have. My issues are more with Grigson (which includes having Pep as the OC). I think it would be interesting to see how well Pagano could do with more control over the team, lineup, and a gm that works with him better to target players that they both think could help the team. However, this makes me question Paganos ability to coach. 

 

I dont think a competent coach would ever allow a play that stupid to be ran. Yeah, the ball is never meant ot be snapped, but its completely irrelevant. No one is jumping offisides due to confusion when it comes to that play. Its stupid. Maybe if the qb was lined up in the shotgun, it would actually be plausible that they were going to run a play, but he wasnt. Under center, with even 2 defenders there, theyre never getting off the ground. This isnt pee wee football. No one is falling for that garbage, especially Bellichick. You keep reiterating the Patriots make mistakes like everyone else, which is true, but theyre also the best coached team in the league. I wouldnt have ran that play on the Jags let alone the Pats. Theres no reason for it in the playbook.

 

Furthermore, I'm gathering from you Pagano wasnt fully aware of the play design or how the play looked, which according to his quote i dont believe that, but for arguments sake if he didnt know exactly what that play entailed or wasnt 100% confident his team knew exactly what to do in that situation, why run it? Bad coaching. 

 

I think that when it comes time to choose whether to keep or fire Pagano that play will be a big determining factor.

[Bubbz]

You are exactly correct.  The design of the play itself removed all threat that it was going to make three yards.  Therefore, the Pats were not concerned, and had no confusion or sense of urgency at all, which is needed for someone to jump off sides.

 

No professionally coached team would have left Colt Anderson and Griff uncovered.  No coach fails to cover the ball with defenders. The designer of the play should know this.  They should know that no defense would leave it uncovered, and would not be concerned about stopping a small safety from getting three yards with a single WR as a blocker. 

 

Griff should not have snapped it, but the play itself and 0% chance of succeeding and should not have been designed that way (maybe it wasn't and a lot of players were confused, which points to Grigs comments about not practicing it enough during the week)

Right, theres nothing positive that results from that play. Its terrible play design, and its the head coaches fault for allowing it to be ran, either knowingly or allowing a play to be ran on 4th down on our 35 yard line that he has no idea what it entails.

[DougDew]

 

I dont have that big a problem with Pagano, I've never stated< "pagano needs to be fired because of this play" like a lot of people here have. My issues are more with Grigson (which includes having Pep as the OC). I think it would be interesting to see how well Pagano could do with more control over the team, lineup, and a gm that works with him better to target players that they both think could help the team. However, this makes me question Paganos ability to coach. 

 

 

I don't think that giving Pagano more control over the roster solves anything.  Pagano seems to not be a good preparer, in-game adjuster, or overall on the field thinker.  And those are the primary jobs for an HC, not roster management.

 

How about turning your point around.  If the Colts had a better preparer and in-game thinker, the roster would probably look much better.

[DougDew]

Right, theres nothing positive that results from that play. Its terrible play design, and its the head coaches fault for allowing it to be ran, either knowingly or allowing a play to be ran on 4th down on our 35 yard line that he has no idea what it entails.

Griff should not have snapped the ball.  But relying upon a WR that has never run a play like this to evaluate the situation and make the proper call with the clock running down is not a good coaching decision, IMO.   I'm sure Griff was told to NOT snap the ball in certain situations, but I don't think you put him in that situation in the first place. 

 

I still don't understand the advantage of putting a WR as the C and not just the C

[Myles]

I don't think that giving Pagano more control over the roster solves anything.  Pagano seems to not be a good preparer, in-game adjuster, or overall on the field thinker.  And those are the primary jobs for an HC, not roster management.

 

How about turning your point around.  If the Colts had a better preparer and in-game thinker, the roster would probably look much better.

I agree with this.   I don't think the Colts are a well coached team at all.   Nothing leads to them being well coached.   In fact their best player so far this year has been a 40 year old QB who doesn't require much coaching.  

The defense looks lost on most plays.   The special teams are obviously a mess (except for the kickers of course).   The offense looks like they can't run block at times and then when they are run blocking well, the Colts stop running the ball.   They are 3rd in the league for most penalties.   I have to believe that anyone who's watched the games the past season and a half must agree that this in no way resembles a well coached team.

[1959Colts]

Griff should not have snapped the ball.  But relying upon a WR that has never run a play like this to evaluate the situation and make the proper call with the clock running down is not a good coaching decision, IMO.   I'm sure Griff was told to NOT snap the ball in certain situations, but I don't think you put him in that situation in the first place. 

 

I still don't understand the advantage of putting a WR as the C and not just the C

 

Whalen played his part in this epic fail...

However, I still don't think it is the Centers job to decide if and when to snap the ball on any given play.

The Center snaps the ball when the QB dictates.

[Myles]

 

 

Yeah, the ball is never meant ot be snapped,

But that is not really true.  

If the Pats have 12 men on the field or if the Pats formation is in a certain way, then he was supposed to snap the ball.

I can't imagine Anderson was supposed to be under center (or under WR).   That takes the punt out of the equation.   So maybe when Colt got under center, Whalen thought that was the sign to snap.  

 

We'll probably never know the truth.   It really doesn't matter much.   But I do think this is another black eye for Pagano.   He's starting to run out of eyes.

[Somewhere ovr the Waynebow]

This is 100% on the coaching staff.

Per McAfee, Whalen wasn't supposed to be the center and didn't know the play. Coaches put him in that situation regardless because of Geathers injury.

http://m.colts.com/news/article-1/McAfee-Clarifies-Fake-Punt-Whalen-Wasnt-Original-Center-Explains-Design/a9b75475-9fb8-4692-be8e-83dca04adcc0

[Bubbz]

But that is not really true.  

If the Pats have 12 men on the field or if the Pats formation is in a certain way, then he was supposed to snap the ball.

I can't imagine Anderson was supposed to be under center (or under WR).   That takes the punt out of the equation.   So maybe when Colt got under center, Whalen thought that was the sign to snap.  

 

We'll probably never know the truth.   It really doesn't matter much.   But I do think this is another black eye for Pagano.   He's starting to run out of eyes.

If the ball was meant to be snapped other than having 12 men on the field (highly unlikely) then the coach should be fired. If Anderson was in shotgun it would be different, but with just whalen there to block, hes gettin pummeled immediately. 

[peytonmanning18]

They keep coming out with videos and tweets trying to explain why they did it. They look so pathetic. Just say it was stupid and one of the worst plays ever. This has to be killing Irsay that he is in charge of a circus.

[DougDew]

If they come out with an explantion of why they had a WR play C and an S play QB, then it might be useful to explain it.  Other than that, just leave it alone like you said.

 

It certainly does provide Irsay with justification for firing someone if he had that inclination to begin with.  I'm sure that he does not want to be the owner of the team that has the worst play call in NFL recent history.

[csmopar]

They keep coming out with videos and tweets trying to explain why they did it. They look so pathetic. Just say it was stupid and one of the worst plays ever. This has to be killing Irsay that he is in charge of a circus.

my thoughts exactly.........

[ColtsBlueFL]

The play is in the playbook. Geathers was supposed to be the snapper, not Whalen. Griff knows the play in the playbook, but not the changes made-added during the practice week. That is why the miscommunication. Whalen never knew changes or practiced them, according to Boomstick.

[jvan1973]

If they come out with an explantion of why they had a WR play C and an S play QB, then it might be useful to explain it. Other than that, just leave it alone like you said.

It certainly does provide Irsay with justification for firing someone if he had that inclination to begin with. I'm sure that he does not want to be the owner of the team that has the worst play call in NFL recent history.

They did. Geathers was supposed to be under center. He got hurt earlier in the game. So griff was moved to his spot. Unfortunately he didn't practoce the play during the week. The initial idea was to make it look like the punt team was running off the field. They were hoping to catch the pats substituting. That didn't work. The next idea was to try to draw them offsides. When Colt went through the cadence griff snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

[DougDew]

They keep coming out with videos and tweets trying to explain why they did it. They look so pathetic. Just say it was stupid and one of the worst plays ever. This has to be killing Irsay that he is in charge of a circus.

Read McAphee's explanation on Colts.com.  It makes sense and I'm satisfied as to why Griff was the C. 

 

Its not an excuse.  It's explaning the basis for the creation of the play in the first place.

 

But it should not have been run if Geathers was out, IMO.

[DougDew]

They did. Geathers was supposed to be under center. He got hurt earlier in the game. So griff was moved to his spot. Unfortunately he didn't practoce the play during the week. The initial idea was to make it look like the punt team was running off the field. They were hoping to catch the pats substituting. That didn't work. The next idea was to try to draw them offsides. When Colt went through the cadence griff snapped the ball when he wasn't supposed to.

The special teams coach should have been aware that Griff was not available for the audible add-in during the week and informed Pags of that.  Its a coaching issue.

[2006Coltsbestever]

It was a bad play. Probably cost us the game in reality. We gave the game away.

[jvan1973]

The special teams coach should have been aware that Griff was not available for the audible add-in during the week and informed Pags of that. Its a coaching issue.

They should have just not run it if the guy who played center during practice was out. But yeah, coaching issue

[csmopar]

Right here is proof that this is not Whalen's fault.....before, I said he shared in this, now, I think its hard to even say that.  Proof, if Pat is right, that this solely rests on Chuck Pagano's shoulders, 100 percent.

 

"Appearing on the "Bob and Tom Show" McAfee said Whalen was filling in on the play after Clayton Geathers was hurt earlier in the game. He said the wide receiver knew what the play was supposed to do, but had never practiced it."

 

 

 

In practice, with Geathers as center, the team added the second part of the plan, to try to get New England to jump offsides. But Whalen wasn't aware of the audible and didn't know he wasn't supposed to snap the ball.

 

 

"Griff has no idea that we're going to try to draw the guy offsides, 'cause in the play, it says if we get under center, snap it. So Colt Anderson is trying to draw a guy offsides to pick up an easy five yards. If not, we just don't snap it, we take the delay of game," McAfee said.

 

 

 

http://www.wthr.com/story/30307139/colts-punter-pat-mcafee-explains-failed-fourth-down-play

 

 

 

 

If you still feel this was Whalens fault 100%, than i have some ocean front property in Colorado that i'll sell you cheap................

[Smash Mouth]

They keep coming out with videos and tweets trying to explain why they did it. They look so pathetic. Just say it was stupid and one of the worst plays ever. This has to be killing Irsay that he is in charge of a circus.

I don't think that Irsay will get over this unless the Colts beat the Pats in the AFC Title Game.  This spells doom for Pagano

[csmopar]

  Its a coaching issue.

Ding ding...been saying this all along............

[rockywoj]

http://www.colts.com/news/article-1/McAfee-Clarifies-Fake-Punt-Whalen-Wasnt-Original-Center-Explains-Design/a9b75475-9fb8-4692-be8e-83dca04adcc0

 

I still don't like it, though, especially putting Whalen in as snapper when he was not up to speed on it.

[Ja'Crispy]

If that's the case about Geathers, then it further convinces me this was on the coaches. Clearly, Whalen was not on the same page. The coaches should have either made sure Griff knew EXACTLY what was expected or don't try it at all.

[cbear]

I was one of the few that thought the call was a good one.  Just poor execution.  After reading the explanation, I'm more convinced.  I can see them all trying to run off the field and NE trying to do the same, but the Colts stop and snap the ball.  That would have been awesome.

 

I do blame the coaches though for the execution.  First, they didn't run off the field, they sort of trotted.  As a fan, I knew they were going to line up in some crazy formation, not trying to get off the field.  If I could figure that out sitting on my couch, you know NE knew they weren't trying to get off the field.  Second, if Whalen didn't practice that play, they shouldn't have used it.  So again, to me it's execution, not the design of the play itself.  

[Cynjin]

Nothing happens if Pagano doesn't allow a WR under center with a safety as QB and no offensive line.

Let's get to the root of the problem.

Dudeski is right on this one. As a coach you expect your players to execute the play that was called and practiced. You do not expect them to snap a ball when first of all you do get the look you are looking for and second when Colt Anderson, at least according to Patriots players, tells you not once, not twice, but three times not to snap the ball. Would you blame Jim Harbaugh for calling for the punt that went terribly wrong and cost Michigan the game? The players did not execute the play, that is on them.

If you want to blame the coaches about something, blame them for the offense underachieving this year or how undisaplined the offense has looked. Three years ago the Colts were one of the least penalized teams, now not so much.

[Cynjin]

Right here is proof that this is not Whalen's fault.....before, I said he shared in this, now, I think its hard to even say that. Proof, if Pat is right, that this solely rests on Chuck Pagano's shoulders, 100 percent.

"Appearing on the "Bob and Tom Show" McAfee said Whalen was filling in on the play after Clayton Geathers was hurt earlier in the game. He said the wide receiver knew what the play was supposed to do, but had never practiced it."

In practice, with Geathers as center, the team added the second part of the plan, to try to get New England to jump offsides. But Whalen wasn't aware of the audible and didn't know he wasn't supposed to snap the ball.

"Griff has no idea that we're going to try to draw the guy offsides, 'cause in the play, it says if we get under center, snap it. So Colt Anderson is trying to draw a guy offsides to pick up an easy five yards. If not, we just don't snap it, we take the delay of game," McAfee said.

http://www.wthr.com/story/30307139/colts-punter-pat-mcafee-explains-failed-fourth-down-play

If you still feel this was Whalens fault 100%, than i have some ocean front property in Colorado that i'll sell you cheap................

If he never practiced it then yes that is on the coach that sent him out there. But I still want to know why he snapped the ball when Anderson, according to Patriots players, told him not to three times.