DeflateGate: Brady suspension expected (mega merge / updated)

[dynasty13]

I think it's safe to say him and am are both way beyond naive at this point. I'm not sure I can find the right word to describe them and be polite enough to be posted..

 

I'm not naive...my whole intention in this thread (as I made clear from the beginning) is to play devils advocate and present possibilities that would question what 99% of this forum believes as 100% proof. Every write in the world has an opinion on this, and most have agreed that although the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning, there are clear holes in the report. It isnt just us 'blind Patriot homers' that are making that case. We didn't just make up that sentiment...it's coming from somewhere. 

 

Read Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback today...he provides a pretty open dialogue that questions both sides. But the fact that you CAN question both sides is the whole point that Patriots fans have been trying to make. In every example that you fans have listed as a precedent, there was proof or some kind of admission. Neither is the case here, and that leaves just enough room for the Patriots brethren to make a case. Even the harshest critic cant deny that there are things to question. That's been our only point from the beginning, but it is just shaken off like we are naive blind little Patriots fanboys with a low i.q. who drink some special cult water up here that makes us ignorant to logic. That's simply not the case.

[mattceinicram]

Schefter reported today that an announcement on punishment has a good chance of being made today.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

please be for a year

So let me get this straight, you want Brady suspended for a year, right?

[csmopar]

I'm not naive...my whole intention in this thread (as I made clear from the beginning) is to play devils advocate and present possibilities that would question what 99% of this forum believes as 100% proof. Every write in the world has an opinion on this, and most have agreed that although the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning, there are clear holes in the report. It isnt just us 'blind Patriot homers' that are making that case. We didn't just make up that sentiment...it's coming from somewhere.

Read Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback today...he provides a pretty open dialogue that questions both sides. But the fact that you CAN question both sides is the whole point that Patriots fans have been trying to make. In every example that you fans have listed as a precedent, there was proof or some kind of admission. Neither is the case here, and that leaves just enough room for the Patriots brethren to make a case. Even the harshest critic cant deny that there are things to question. That's been our only point from the beginning, but it is just shaken off like we are naive blind little Patriots fanboys with a low i.q. who drink some special cult water up here that makes us ignorant to logic. That's simply not the case.

Well let me put it this way.

I've been trained in investigations and have just under 12 years of conducting and writing investigations.

The writing in this report is pretty much standard operating procedure for investigators and especially attorneys.

The holes you mention really aren't holes. They are fans opinions that are based on thin air as the fans don't have access to the exact evidence That Well's team did

[SilentHill]

I predict fumbles go up dramaticly in cheaterland .

 

It all makes sense now why if a RB fumbled they were benched. If you fumble a soft football you deserve to be benched.

[csmopar]

I'm not naive...my whole intention in this thread (as I made clear from the beginning) is to play devils advocate and present possibilities that would question what 99% of this forum believes as 100% proof. Every write in the world has an opinion on this, and most have agreed that although the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning, there are clear holes in the report. It isnt just us 'blind Patriot homers' that are making that case. We didn't just make up that sentiment...it's coming from somewhere.

Read Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback today...he provides a pretty open dialogue that questions both sides. But the fact that you CAN question both sides is the whole point that Patriots fans have been trying to make. In every example that you fans have listed as a precedent, there was proof or some kind of admission. Neither is the case here, and that leaves just enough room for the Patriots brethren to make a case. Even the harshest critic cant deny that there are things to question. That's been our only point from the beginning, but it is just shaken off like we are naive blind little Patriots fanboys with a low i.q. who drink some special cult water up here that makes us ignorant to logic. That's simply not the case.

And yes, every report is gonna have questions to be answered. Sometimes the report doesn't cover it or is done a certain way because that's the way the trail of evidence took the investigation or the investigators didn't have or have access to more evidence.

When I do an investigation, the first thing I look at is the result, then I work backwards to see what lead to the ultimate end result. Sometimes I can't do it that way but that's my prime goal.

Now in this case, looking at it from an unbiased view, we know 1 thing for sure, the balls, 11 of them were under inflated substantially at half time.

We have 3 possible causes.

1. They were measured wrong either before kickoff or at halftime, being that so many were well below, I'm ruling that out.

2. The cool, wet weather. Science has pretty much ruled out that the Temps during the game would cause that big of a drop.

3. Someone deflated them. Oh wait, we have evidence showing a Pats employee illegally (per nfl rules) removing the balls from the locker room after inspection, and then taking them into a bathroom...

Now of those 3, the only one not able to fully be debunked is number 3....that's where you go from.

[dw49]

Well let me put it this way.

I've been trained in investigations and have just under 12 years of conducting and writing investigations.

The writing in this report is pretty much standard operating procedure for investigators and especially attorneys.

The holes you mention really aren't holes. They are fans opinions that are based on thin air as the fans don't have access to the exact evidence That Well's team did

 

 

Plus they are falling back on a ridiculous premise that the NFL told Wells to slant the report to make Brady look guilty. I can see all the reasons in the world for the contrary and none that would back up this insane accusation. As long as they have these kind of assumptions in their "mix" , they have to be treated like the dull knives in the drawer .

[dynasty13]

Well let me put it this way.

I've been trained in investigations and have just under 12 years of conducting and writing investigations.

The writing in this report is pretty much standard operating procedure for investigators and especially attorneys.

The holes you mention really aren't holes. They are fans opinions that are based on thin air as the fans don't have access to the exact evidence That Well's team did

 

So Patriots fans are just making this up out of nowhere because they don't have access to the exact evidence, but you guys are convinced that that lack of access to the exact evidence is enough to prove not only involvement, but bribery, a cover up, and in the end, guilt???

[PeterBowman]

It all makes sense now why if a RB fumbled they were benched. If you fumble a soft football you deserve to be benched.

and also how their fumble rate since 2006-2007 have been a statistical anomaly.

[Buck Showalter]

It has nothing to do with insecurities...it's the fact that you guys are going on and on about payoffs and bribery and cover ups and that's total nonsense. Giving equipment guys signed memorabilia is not a payoff...its common practice. The equipment guys make close to nothing and that is how the players typically 'tip them' to show their appreciation. The texts between McNally and Jastremsky don't tell the story of bribery....and that's the narrative many are trying to create to use as additional character assassination. 

 

Think of it this way. Say my job (I'm McNally) was to make sure that all our proposals printed out and then I would pass them on to someone (the Ref) to be binded before being sent out. If the person I handed them off to accidentally made an error and binded them out of order (Jets game 16PSI balls), my boss (Brady) would probably give me a stern talkin' to. So I decided to avoid that and started coming in every Sunday to go through each page one by one to make sure that everything was in order so I wouldn't get yelled at again. Then I went home and texted my coworker and said something like 'man, screw our boss, I better be getting a nice bonus this year!'...does that mean my boss is bribing me?

 

No...its tough to read the intent of the texts between McNally and Jastremsky without the total context.

Occam's Razor dude

[Myles]

The New England fans cling to it was a blow out the Colts had no chance ,

I find that to be a stupid stance. Is a guy with a corked bat not cheating if he strike out?

[csmopar]

So Patriots fans are just making this up out of nowhere because they don't have access to the exact evidence, but you guys are convinced that that lack of access to the exact evidence is enough to prove not only involvement, but bribery, a cover up, and in the end, guilt???

Let me clarify. I'm referring to evidence to back their claims of a sting operation, false reporting etc.

I deal in facts. And looking and having read every single line in that report, yes I would also conclude that Tom brady was fully aware and tried to cover it up with gifts. Now, I will also say that there is no proof anyone out side of those 3 individuals were involved, therefore I cannot say that the Patriots coaches and staff were aware even though they probably were. But without anything linking them, I can't say that for sure. Brady, based on the texts and his refusal to cooperate, I can say yes he was and is involved.

[dynasty13]

Let me clarify. I'm referring to evidence to back their claims of a sting operation, false reporting etc.

I deal in facts. And looking and having read every single line in that report, yes I would also conclude that Tom brady was fully aware and tried to cover it up with gifts. Now, I will also say that there is no proof anyone out side of those 3 individuals were involved, therefore I cannot say that the Patriots coaches and staff were aware even though they probably were. But without anything linking them, I can't say that for sure. Brady, based on the texts and his refusal to cooperate, I can say yes he was and is involved.

 

Based on the texts.

 

Here's the thing...if there was a text from Jastremsky to McNally that said something like 'Tom said to knock those things down to 11, there's a new pair of kicks in it if you can make that happen'....then boom, that's your proof. There's your bribery. 

 

But what we got isn't even close. Even if Brady felt that the balls were under inflated, there is literally nothing in the report that even infers that Brady was aware of how the balls got to be like that. Clearly Tom preferes them less inflated, he has admitted that...but for all we know, he may think the equipment guys get the balls as low as they can hoping that they get by the ref check...and there's nothing wrong with that. The same way Aaron Rodgers guys overinflate the balls to his preference and then hope they get through the check. The problem is that many are making the leap that Brady not only knew that they were doing it after the balls were cleared by the refs, but that he ALSO was the one that directed them to do it that way. I just don't see how that conclusion can be reached.

[18Manning]

So Patriots fans are just making this up out of nowhere because they don't have access to the exact evidence, but you guys are convinced that that lack of access to the exact evidence is enough to prove not only involvement, but bribery, a cover up, and in the end, guilt???

 

Regardless of what I, you, csmopar or anyone thinks, there's apparently enough evidence to merit a suspension. I am obviously a fan of Peyton, but under similar circumstances, I would concede probable guilt. There's WAY too much here to ignore.

[csmopar]

Regardless of what I, you, csmopar or anyone thinks, there's apparently enough evidence to merit a suspension. I am obviously a fan of Peyton, but under similar circumstances, I would concede probable guilt. There's WAY too much here to ignore.

Best statement in this whole thread right here. And he's right

[amfootball]

Regardless of what I, you, csmopar or anyone thinks, there's apparently enough evidence to merit a suspension. I am obviously a fan of Peyton, but under similar circumstances, I would concede probable guilt. There's WAY too much here to ignore.

Except that never in the history of the game has ball tampering merited a suspension. In most cases no penalty was given or just a fine ... this IMO will be a huge point Brady's legal team will use in fighting this along with the bazillion holes in the Wells report ...

[18Manning]

Except that never in the history of the game has ball tampering merited a suspension. In most cases no penalty was given or just a fine ... this IMO will be a huge point Brady's legal team will use in fighting this along with the bazillion holes in the Wells report ...

 

Perhaps, but I don't think it's only about ball tampering at this point.

[Jason_]

Except that never in the history of the game has ball tampering merited a suspension. In most cases no penalty was given or just a fine ... this IMO will be a huge point Brady's legal team will use in fighting this along with the bazillion holes in the Wells report ...

 

[OffensivelyPC]

I'm not naive...my whole intention in this thread (as I made clear from the beginning) is to play devils advocate and present possibilities that would question what 99% of this forum believes as 100% proof. Every write in the world has an opinion on this, and most have agreed that although the circumstantial evidence is pretty damning, there are clear holes in the report. It isnt just us 'blind Patriot homers' that are making that case. We didn't just make up that sentiment...it's coming from somewhere. 

 

Read Peter King's Monday Morning Quarterback today...he provides a pretty open dialogue that questions both sides. But the fact that you CAN question both sides is the whole point that Patriots fans have been trying to make. In every example that you fans have listed as a precedent, there was proof or some kind of admission. Neither is the case here, and that leaves just enough room for the Patriots brethren to make a case. Even the harshest critic cant deny that there are things to question. That's been our only point from the beginning, but it is just shaken off like we are naive blind little Patriots fanboys with a low i.q. who drink some special cult water up here that makes us ignorant to logic. That's simply not the case.

Just because you can question both sides doesn't mean that guilt is misappropriated.  You can come up with any question you want and that's enough to question something.  It's a ridiculous example, but someone could say something like, "well maybe aliens came down and did it.  That hasn't been ruled out, soo...."

 

So in this case, there are plenty of things you can question, even do so intelligently.  I haven't read the MMQB article, but perhaps he does, I'm sure I've heard them because I've heard plenty about this from people on here, other articles, etc.  But by and large, this case deals in probabilities, which is all that is required for punishment.  It's all that's required in civil cases, employee disciplinary hearings, and a litany of other adversarial settings.  To require certainty for proof is at best unrealistic.  Not even criminal court requires that and that's the highest standard of proof required in this country.  Way to much has been made of this "probably" and "maybe" guilty, but it's sorely misplaced.  

 

I get Patriot fans want to make a case for their quarterback.  I'm good with that. But to me, if you had to say Tom Brady did or did not know that the 2 ball boys deflated the footballs below the requisite 12.5 PSI, you will be right more often than not if you said the guys did it with Tom Brady's knowledge.  There's plenty of texts that prove Brady had the authority to direct how the footballs are prepared.  Brady and Belicheck's press conferences alone provide enough proof that it's tailored to meet the QBs specifications.  And these guys wouldn't have kept their jobs with the franchise as long as they have if they didn't continue to prepare the footballs to those specifications.  So again, I just don't see how anyone could say that, more likely than not, the ball boys deflated the footballs without Tom's knowledge.  It defies their job expectations at bare minimum, not to mention, as we've seen, subjects the team/player to league discipline.  So either they did it under Tom's direction or these two guys had an ax to grind against Brady.  the latter seems the most implausible scenario given the texts to one another after this broke out, the accepted gifts from Tom, and the fact taht they continue to be employed by the team.  So, the MMQB can question both sides, but it seems to me that the Patriots position is the more questionable of the two sides.

[ColtRider]

Perhaps, but I don't think it's only about ball tampering at this point.

Exactly. The reason Brady will be suspended is for lying, trying to cover it up, and not admitting to any wrongdoing. If it were just air pressure, he gets fined while admitting to it and this whole thing goes away.

[Track Guy]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

[Superman]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

 

That's not what happened.

[CLOWN]

I'm taking the wait and see approach. So far I'm leaning towards the league blowing this one in a big way. It could have been put to rest in 2-3 days max IMO. They've allowed it to snowball out of control.  

[The Old Crow]

Nice deflection but unfortunately air ball pressure will not mar any QB anyway whatsoever. Never has, never will.

And you must have missed the part where your coach said that he did not believe the Pats had done anything to do the balls in the post-season game. Joe managed to lose that game all by himself ...

If air pressure has nothing to do with it, why did Brady and his cohorts do it ? Maybe Joe lost, but he did it with a properly inflated ball, unlike his opponent. He lost honorably versus winning dishonorably. Your name is worth something, but a cheaters name is Mudd.

[ColtRider]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

"DeflateGate is stupid."

Go tell that to the rest of the NFL teams that faced the Patriots in the Playoffs for the last decade or so, if in fact, that's what has been going on here for quite some time.

This is serious business, folks. Anyone who thinks otherwise, just is not seeing the whole picture.

[The Old Crow]

Or Julian Edelman?

Great thought. It's always easier throwing with a nerf football when the other team is playing within the rules.

[OffensivelyPC]

If air pressure has nothing to do with it, why did Brady and his cohorts do it ? Maybe Joe lost, but he did it with a properly inflated ball, unlike his opponent. He lost honorably versus winning dishonorably. Your name is worth something, but a cheaters name is Mudd.

More importantly, why was everything done in secrecy?  Why was the footballs taken without the referee's permission?  Why would the footballs be taken into the bathroom?  If this was "only" air pressure, things wouldn't have been done to avoid detection.

[The Old Crow]

The 10 Patriot Commandments:

1. Thou shall tape

2. Thou shall deflate

3. Honor thy illegal formations

4. Thou shall cover up

5. Thou shall use a snow plow

6. Thou shall lose a ring to a communist dictator

7. Thou shall disavow players with problems by releasing them and absolving oneself

8. Thou shall tuck and get luck

9. Honor thy owner and his rantings

10. Thou shall use injured reserve list falsely.

[BlueShoe]

More importantly, why was everything done in secrecy?  Why was the footballs taken without the referee's permission?  Why would the footballs be taken into the bathroom?  If this was "only" air pressure, things wouldn't have been done to avoid detection.

 

I agree. The other issue is the 2 footballs that Mike Adams intercepted in week 11, had some type of sticky substance on them.

[amfootball]

If air pressure has nothing to do with it, why did Brady and his cohorts do it ? Maybe Joe lost, but he did it with a properly inflated ball, unlike his opponent. He lost honorably versus winning dishonorably. Your name is worth something, but a cheaters name is Mudd.

lol. Your posts are hilarious. So you think your Ravens won with "honor" with Ray Lewis' antler juice?

[The Old Crow]

More importantly, why was everything done in secrecy? Why was the footballs taken without the referee's permission? Why would the footballs be taken into the bathroom? If this was "only" air pressure, things wouldn't have been done to avoid detection.

I think we all know why, except for the hardliners. This is a sad commentary for the win at all costs philosophy without a regard to honor and fair play. It is organizational shenanigans at its worse. You can't confuse this with individual player miscues, which all teams have, this is institutional , and a culture of malfeasance on many levels.

[Kyle]

Any QB/team in the league would trade a 2-6 suspension the following year for a SB win.  That punishment does NOT fit the crime.  He should be suspended for at least a full season if not longer.

[The Old Crow]

lol. Your posts are hilarious. So you think your Ravens won with "honor" with Ray Lewis' antler juice?

Again, individual or PED example that all teams have , versus tampering with equipment and taping signals. We are talking about institutional cheating.

[dynasty13]

 

Exactly. The reason Brady will be suspended is for lying, trying to cover it up, and not admitting to any wrongdoing. If it were just air pressure, he gets fined while admitting to it and this whole thing goes away.

 

 

This part I found interesting in Peter King's article. He was saying that IF Brady tried to cheat, he was pretty bad at it.

 

Since the NFL allowed all teams to condition footballs the way they wanted for use in both home and road games in 2006, the idea was that quarterbacks could play with footballs in the same shape for 16 weekends, not eight. (Previously, road quarterbacks played with footballs broken in in whatever way the home team wished.) But road teams do not bring their own ballboys to games. So, if a home-team ballboy was doctoring the footballs in any way before the game, that’s not something that could happen on the road. Brady, of course, is suspected of having the balls doctored for him in the AFC title game, and it’d be naïve to think that this was the first game in which two longtime club employees messed with the footballs for Brady.

But if John Jastremski or Jim McNally have done any funny business with the balls over the past few years, the results sure don’t show it. Some telling numbers for Brady in the nine regular seasons between 2006 and 2014:

Passer Rating

Home Games 100.2

Road Games  99.7

Passing Yards

Home Games 271.8

Road Games  274.3 

TD-to-Interception Differential

Home Games Plus-96

Road Games  Plus-96 

Wouldn’t you figure that if Brady was getting such an edge by having footballs doctored before home games—and by the simple factor of home-field advantage—that, more probable than not, he’d be markedly better at home?

 

One thing that IS clear is that the action itself isn't a big deal, as shown by the dominance of Brady in the second half of the AFCCG as well as his Superbowl performance with perfectly regulated footballs. So people are really calling for a long suspension for supposedly lying? It's not even about the deflating anymore, it's his response to it that people are apparently upset about and I don't really get it. Its not about the integrity of the game anymore, its the apparent integrity of the guy.

[Girlzarefanstoo]

lol. Your posts are hilarious. So you think your Ravens won with "honor" with Ray Lewis' antler juice?

Simple, honest question.  Does it make a difference and lessen the guilt of your patriots if he did? 

 

Because some other team may have cheated it makes your team's actions okay?

[Track Guy]

That's not what happened.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen it been ruled out. A few of the Colts footballs also supposedly measured sub 12.5, which just furthered the climate theory to me but if there's convincing evidence that it couldn't have been weather then that changes things.

[amfootball]

Again, individual or PED example that all teams have , versus tampering with equipment and taping signals. We are talking about institutional cheating.

lol. Even funnier. Lewis' ability to play and performance were enhanced by the juice. That is cheating worse than ball pressure.

[The Old Crow]

Any QB/team in the league would trade a 2-6 suspension the following year for a SB win. That punishment does NOT fit the crime. He should be suspended for at least a full season if not longer.

Where is the little Patriot fan saying, " say it ain't so Tom, " like the kid did to Shoeless Joe Jackson after the Black Sox scandal ? We know he doesn't exist, and the whole crew up there will blame it all on the janitors and attendants.

[Superman]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen it been ruled out. A few of the Colts footballs also supposedly measured sub 12.5, which just furthered the climate theory to me but if there's convincing evidence that it couldn't have been weather then that changes things.

 

Only one Colts ball measured below 12.5, and that's only by one reading. Percentage wise, all the Pats balls lost more pressure than all the Colts balls, which pretty much rules out temperature.

 

Add to that the fact that McNally stole the balls out of the refs' locker room and disappeared into the bathroom with them, and it's pretty easy to conclude that McNally -- the same guy who called himself "the deflator" in May 2014, despite not having anything to do with the preparation of the footballs -- took air out of the footballs after the refs checked them.

[crazycolt1]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

No, Brady is the one who is stupid IMO. Had he fessed up he would have drew his token fine and this would long be over. By making himself look guilty he brought all of this upon himself. His original comment when the investigation started was this isn't Isis, no one got killed. The arrogance of just that comment was totally unreal. It does not take a rocket scientist to know where there is smoke there is fire. Brady then followed up with he didn't know the name of the ball boy known as the deflator who has been prepping his footballs for seven years or so. If you believe that I have some beautiful ocean front property I will sell you real cheap here in Indiana.