What have we learned

[compuls1v3]

48 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I learned any QB just throwing the ball up for grabs with his left hand ends badly, not just for Wentz.  Hunh who knew lol.

Jimmy and Kyler proved that lol.

[coltsfan_canada]

3 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

Jimmy and Kyler proved that lol.

and all of them did to Rams including Wentz

[EastStreet]

33 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

and all of them did to Rams including Wentz

Rams are top 3 in sacks, and top 3 in INTs....

A lot of QBs don't do well against them.

 

I know we all view Wentz through a X100 lens, but there are a lot of QBs who perform badly in certain situations. 

28 QBs had more INTs than Wentz. And most of those QBs had better OLs and pass catchers... 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Obvious to some, but maybe not to others....

 

Zero RBs with 100 or more yards this weekend. or last....

 

So does that mean you don't need a great RB either?

That and most of the evidence since Emmit Smith in the early 90s or so seems to indicate that the running back is not all that valuable of a position.

 

It’s just not.

[James]

That Ballard needs to evolve.

 

Watching the importance of the WR (and the TE) position. It is a passing league, yet Ballard (if he’d been the Bengals GM) would have probably taken Sewell and not Chase because he foolishly doesn’t value the WR position. 

 

Surprised seeing he came from KC where they now have both Hill and Kelce. Can’t he use his eyes and see this from the outside? Ballard would rather settle with Doyle (no namer compared to Kelce; but from Indy so keeps getting playtime = TE NOT getting prioritised), and Pittman Jr. who looks good but nowhere near Hill or Chase - and he likely won’t be. 

 

Regarding pass rush a lot of Colts fans were clamouring for a pass rusher. Hendrickson from the Saints was a popular pick to bolster the pass rush, but Ballard gets cheap again. 
Hendrickson has been worth every penny for the Bengals. Autry too for the Titans where Ballard got cheap again.

 

“Will only pay A money for A player, not A money for B players.” Okay? Then be better to evaluate A and B players.

 

Colts could have used Hendrickson. 

Ballard needs to do more. Much more.

[CoachLite]

I think the Colts have all the potential talent they need - including Wentz. They just don't put it together and use it very well, consistently. That leads me to think the problem is in coaching, specifically in strategic and tactical flaws (some say play calling), but also in player development and utilization.

 

Some fans say we need this guy or that. Bull feathers! You could have the greatest football players who ever lived on the team and use them wrong - and you'd have the Colts we have today.

[danlhart87]

 

[jimmy g]

8 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

Jimmy G is a joke

 

I know I’m old and no longer move well- but that hurt!!!!

[jimmy g]

4 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

 

Now- that one fits me. I watched Debo from my couch.

[John Hammonds]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He still got there and twice so he must be doing something right. Wentz has never won a playoff game.

Yup.  That's what I learned from the playoffs.  Just about everyone else has been pointing at the great QB play and shouting, See?!??  See?!?!???!!  You need a great QB!  But what I learned was that a team with a great offensive line, playing great defense, with great play by other skill players, and not having a premier QB, can get to within 5 minutes of the super bowl.

No, it's not the preferred path.  And no, it doesn't always work.  But it can be done.

[jimmy g]

8 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

He got there because of his defense 

Wentz gave us several big first half leads. Had our Defense played 4th quarters better, we would have beaten (at least) Baltimore, Tennessee, and the Raiders. Possibly even the Rams.

[Smonroe]

If we’re just learning that the two most important factors are - protect your QB and pressure theirs, then maybe we all need to be in the Remedial Football League.  
 

Colts failed on both.
 

Ballard tried to accomplish the second part through the draft and the first part with an injured OT. 
 

That gamble could pay off this season if the OT gets healthy and the pass rushers mature.  But why gamble again?  Bring in some proven players!

[Two_pound]

Yep, we have to stop playing triple vanilla, retreat and surrender defense. Just ask the Bills, they gave up 44 yards in 13 seconds to the Chiefs last week, it doesn't work, never has and never will.

[Solid84]

17 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

If we’re just learning that the two most important factors are - protect your QB and pressure theirs, then maybe we all need to be in the Remedial Football League.  
 

Colts failed on both.
 

Ballard tried to accomplish the second part through the draft and the first part with an injured OT. 
 

That gamble could pay off this season if the OT gets healthy and the pass rushers mature.  But why gamble again?  Bring in some proven players!

I wonder at the OT part. Why would Fisher all of a sudden become a good, great or elite pass blocker AFTER an achilles injury when he hasn’t been much more than average throughout his career? Ballard bungled that hire. Should’ve been Leno. 

[Two_pound]

When Leno played for the Bears he was one of the worst offensive linemen in the league. The guy couldn't block anyone, it was like watching LaRaven Clark. Or any steeler offensive linemen this past season!

[Smonroe]

5 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I wonder at the OT part. Why would Fisher all of a sudden become a good, great or elite pass blocker AFTER an achilles injury when he hasn’t been much more than average throughout his career? Ballard bungled that hire. Should’ve been Leno. 

In hindsight, that’s true.  I think he felt the Fisher upside was greater.  He did show signs of improvement as the season went on and his run blocking is very good.  
 

Letting Autry go was a bigger mistake, IMHO.  

[DiogoSales]

We learned what we already knew..

 

There's more than one way to win, but the way "winning with avg QB" it's the most difficult one.

[coltsva]

I learned that even though the Colts were not playing yesterday, I still got to watch some "Colts Football" in the playoffs. 

 

Reid not taking the easy 3 points on the last play of the half, and Jimmy G making the game ending backhand flip pass, had me flashbacking to Reich & Wentz. 

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, Smonroe said:

In hindsight, that’s true.  I think he felt the Fisher upside was greater.  He did show signs of improvement as the season went on and his run blocking is very good.  
 

Letting Autry go was a bigger mistake, IMHO.  

It was true without hindsight and some of us were calling it then. 
 

Fisher had never been great or elite. Never have lived up to that first pick status. We knew he wouldn’t be available through at least the first few weeks of the season and we didn’t know when he’d be up to speed without any training camp. Ballard gambled at least a month or two of the season on that decision. Add to that Leno by all accounts was begging to come here. 
 

How different could this season have looked if we didn’t have a revolving door at LT?

 

I agree letting Autry walk was a bad call as well. 

[throwing BBZ]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Wentz was also pressured (pressure %) more than Burrow (on the year)... Wentz was hit 27 times more than Burrow.... Burrow threw twice as many INTs as Wentz.... 

 

Burrow is clearly better than Wentz, but their pass pro is better than ours. They have a good LT, and ours was bad. Blind side tackle is easily the biggest need for a QB's success. And Fisher was just plain bad this year. Plenty of film out there showing how bad. 

 

Not saying Wentz is up there with the top QBs. I do think he can be better with weapons and a better pass pro. At minimum as good as Jimmy and Tannehill. 

 

 

 

 Wentz made his line look much worse than it was. He was mentally slow and had a limited number of throws he liked to make. And he struggled to make those.

 Tann & Garap play a better game than him. Don't let the touchdown and int. #'s be your be all end all with your assessment.

[twfish]

10 hours ago, compuls1v3 said:

I’ve learned that you don’t need an elite o line, you do need an elite d line, you need an elite QB and at least 2 good-great WRs.  The QB and WRs can make up for a bad o line.

You say this but it's practically a miracle the Bengals are where they are at. Their terrible line tore Burrows ACL last season and has absolutely pummeled him this season. They stand zero chance against the Ram's D-line. They got hot when they needed to and is definitely an exception to the rule otherwise Stafford would have had rings with Johnson in Detroit. The Bengals remind me a lot of the Colts with Luck and T.Y. Super explosive but neglecting protecting the QB will come back to haunt them eventually

[Flash7]

I think we learned the usual things:

1. You need a quality QB to take you to the playoffs and then make plays to take you to the Super bowl.
2. You need weapons over O-line. Of course it helps to have a good O-line but more importantly,  you need multiple weapons like J. Chase, T. Higgins, T. Hill, T. Kelce O. Beckham, C. Kupp, etc... We currently only have M. Pittman and then a lot of players who would be third or fourth stringers on most other teams, (except T.Y. who in the right system could still contribute. P. Campbell if he can ever stay healthy, but he hasn't been able to, so it's nearly impossible to say what he's capable of moving forward. I would classify him as a bonus if he ever meets his potential, but wouldn't rely on it).
3. You need a good run game, but not necessarily a great one. Having the best run game in the league makes you too predictable. It becomes your bread and butter, and you rely on it too often when things get difficult. In the playoffs, you will match up against the best teams, who usually have good defenses to negate the run. That's why there were no 100 yard rushers in recent playoff games. In the last few must win games, Reich's propensity to run out of stacked formations telegraphed the play for opposing defenses and J.T. was limited due to Reich's over reliance on the run. It became much too predictable.
4. You need a good defense with playmakers -- defenses that can match up with the leagues top offenses and make stops on third down. 

[Colt.45]

Many lessons.

 

#1) This is a passing league, build with that as the foundation of everything you do. (This is not a new lesson, some of us have been speaking about the way Ballard chose to build and worrying about it. This season, Chris Ballard has come to understand it). So maybe it's not a new lesson, more of a reinforced lesson.

 

#2) There are MANY ways to get to the promised land. 

#3) Coaching doesnt matter....until it does. Cincy had no business winning that game, not with the nonsense offensive gameplay they put out. KC had no business losing that game, not till the coach pooped the bed.

#4) It isn't just about one guy. We've all talked ad nauseam about needing the QB, and why we need one. The position is by far the most important. We saw yesterday WHY you have to have more than just the ability to pass the ball. When Mahomes went inside the toilet in the second half, KC had NOTHING to counter with, zero run game.

 

 

[Fisticuffs111]

Need dynamic weapons. Regardless of QB. Of course it helps to have top tier QB talent, but we’re not getting that for a while so iis what it is.

 

Need a threatening pass rush. And good DB play that can give the DL some time for those moments when a guy like Mahomes extends a play. Really liked watching the Bengals DB’s.

 

I don’t think there’s only one build of a team that can make the SB. But in order for our team to make it our running game would have to be near perfect for all 3-4 games, with dynamic pass catchers, and a pass rush that can actually finish the job.

 

As for Wentz…would need better protection at LT. He’s not gonna be able to be sacked 9 times and still win a game like Burrow. He’s gotta start taking the short shots more too (better decision making). And of course, for his mechanics/accuracy not to deteriorate down the stretch. 

[MikeCurtis]

10 hours ago, smittywerb said:

 

 

- you don’t need the best OL.  Heck, you don’t even need a good one.  Having qb making quick throws and the right throws, skill players that understand the assignment, and a scheme that masks the deficiencies of the OL can get it done. 
 

The thing is....... with a weak OL, your QB WILL get hurt - He was knocked out last year

 

Burrows is a rare talent. I wish that he was on our team...... but he is not

 

If I were the Bengals..... Id be picking up the OL talent in the offseason

 

The NFL history book is full of amazing talents at QB.... That got beat up, and left the game too early

 

Bert Jones is one of them

 

 

[MikeCurtis]

12 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Need dynamic weapons. Regardless of QB. Of course it helps to have top tier QB talent, but we’re not getting that for a while so iis what it is.

 

Need a threatening pass rush. And good DB play that can give the DL some time for those moments when a guy like Mahomes extends a play. Really liked watching the Bengals DB’s.

 

I don’t think there’s only one build of a team that can make the SB. But in order for our team to make it our running game would have to be near perfect for all 3-4 games, with dynamic pass catchers, and a pass rush that can actually finish the job.

 

As for Wentz…would need better protection at LT. He’s not gonna be able to be sacked 9 times and still win a game like Burrow. He’s gotta start taking the short shots more too (better decision making). And of course, for his mechanics/accuracy not to deteriorate down the stretch. 

Spot on!!!!

[Les Poulains]

10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Obvious to some, but maybe not to others....

 

Zero RBs with 100 or more yards this weekend. or last....

 

So does that mean you don't need a great RB either?

Everyone already knows that. Jonathan Taylor, as great as he is, isn't actually all that important to success. Neither is a left guard.

[AwesomeAustin]

Learned you need a great QB, weapons on the outside, a good to great pass rush, good defense and a solid to near elite OL.  Kinda need the whole enchilada. 

Also learned:

 

Jimmy G is not better than Wentz. 
 

Bengals need to invest in their OL quickly or Burrow will be torn apart. Super happy for them to make the SB but they are the exception.  

[buccolts]

 

29 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Learned you need a great QB, weapons on the outside, a good to great pass rush, good defense and a solid to near elite OL.  Kinda need the whole enchilada. 

Bengals need to invest in their OL quickly or Burrow will be torn apart. Super happy for them to make the SB but they are the exception

So, why aren't the Chiefs in the SB, again? Bills? Bucs?

You mean you can have it all and NOT make the SB?

 

Now me? There's no one way, but I prefer being solid everywhere, creative coaching, and solid execution.

If we're going to be elite anywhere, I'd prefer it's the trenches.

[#12.]

10 minutes ago, buccolts said:

 

So, why aren't the Chiefs in the SB, again? Bills? Bucs?

You mean you can have it all and NOT make the SB?

 

No me? There's no one way, but I prefer being solid everywhere, creative coaching, and solid execution.

 

You were about 5:00 away from a Bengals/49ers Super Bowl with both playing more controlled football, balanced football.  It wasn't video game football   Hell, during the playoffs, the Bengals even routinely played for FGs.

 

I agree, there are many ways to win, and with a better QB, you can win playing the way we were playing in 2021.

[Knuckles79]

2 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Wentz made his line look much worse than it was. He was mentally slow and had a limited number of throws he liked to make. And he struggled to make those.

 Tann & Garap play a better game than him. Don't let the touchdown and int. #'s be your be all end all with your assessment.

Do you not see Jimmy missing wide open targets in almost every game?

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, James said:

That Ballard needs to evolve.

 

Watching the importance of the WR (and the TE) position. It is a passing league, yet Ballard (if he’d been the Bengals GM) would have probably taken Sewell and not Chase because he foolishly doesn’t value the WR position. 

 

Surprised seeing he came from KC where they now have both Hill and Kelce. Can’t he use his eyes and see this from the outside? Ballard would rather settle with Doyle (no namer compared to Kelce; but from Indy so keeps getting playtime = TE NOT getting prioritised), and Pittman Jr. who looks good but nowhere near Hill or Chase - and he likely won’t be. 

 

Regarding pass rush a lot of Colts fans were clamouring for a pass rusher. Hendrickson from the Saints was a popular pick to bolster the pass rush, but Ballard gets cheap again. 
Hendrickson has been worth every penny for the Bengals. Autry too for the Titans where Ballard got cheap again.

 

“Will only pay A money for A player, not A money for B players.” Okay? Then be better to evaluate A and B players.

 

Colts could have used Hendrickson. 

Ballard needs to do more. Much more.

Lets me be honest. Andy Reid values the D and O line above everything. He is willing to take chances on players with charactere concerns ie. Chris Jones and Hill and they usually work out for him

[throwing BBZ]

18 minutes ago, Knuckles79 said:

Do you not see Jimmy missing wide open targets in almost every game?

 

 Uhhh of course. Since Wentz does the same thing what is your point?

 I really like how JG makes quick decisions, gets the ball out quickly when needed, and throws all kinds of high quality, on target with touch passes.

 And this is NOT at all what Wentz has any gift for. Did you miss this?

  https://www.nfl.com/news/ranking-the-14-playoff-quarterbacks-based-on-ngs-new-passing-score-metric?campaign=Twitter_atn

 And of course i found this very interesting.

And BTW, i do not want JG.  I would would take his Head way over duh Wentz, but do want a bigger arm. lol

[stitches]

14 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

The SB 56 matching between the Bengals and Rams should be a good one

 

Rams

 

They went all out this year giving up their 1st round picks until 2050 but being aggressive has certainly paid off.  They certainly have that luxury though with having great team.

 

Bengals 

 

They went after one of the top EDGE guys in FA in Hendricksom and it paid off.  Their big debate was Sewell vs Chase and while both have been great Chase was definitely the guy who has helped Burrow like at LSU

 

What would I do if I am Ballard 

 

Get top EDGE and WR in FA

Draft top available OT in 2nd Round 

 

 

The huge overwhelming lesson from those playoffs and from modern football in general is - invest HEAVILY in the QB and the passing game on offense - WEAPONS WEAPONS WEAPONS. You never have enough weapons. You have two or three great offensive weapons? Great. Now go get MORE.

 

On defense - stop with the build from the inside/stop the run nonsense. This is NOT 1980! This is the worst thing Ballard continues to parrot around every chance he gets and it's the thing that will cost him his job if he continues his headstrong attitude. In this league with quick passing games and athletic QBs, you win on the outside first. You need your CBs to hold for enough time that your pass-rushers get there. You win at CB and S, you win with quick pressures if you can do it. Stop the pass, interrupt timing and rhythm of the opponent. And on your way to the QB, maybe play the run a bit... 

 

Unfortunately, both of those lessons were not learned by Ballard as recently as 3 weeks ago, when he doubled down on both "build from the inside" and on "we like our WRs"... for a team that couldn't stop the pass in the most important moments over and over and over again and had 1 receiver over 400 yards. 

[jbaron04]

14 hours ago, Knuckles79 said:

Did you not just watch the game. Jimmy had the exact same flaws Wentz had this year. Missed throws to wide open targets throwing unusual pass for the game losing int. 

Only difference is jimmy takes the check down lol but they both got the same injury issues and back breaking plays 

[coltsfan_canada]

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Rams are top 3 in sacks, and top 3 in INTs....

A lot of QBs don't do well against them.

 

I know we all view Wentz through a X100 lens, but there are a lot of QBs who perform badly in certain situations. 

28 QBs had more INTs than Wentz. And most of those QBs had better OLs and pass catchers... 

 

I think if Wentz leave to somewhere with offensive minded coach I think he will do good specially like TB with Bruce Arians then we will really regret Wentz I know I know he ain't Tom Brady or Peyton but I do think with better line protection lets evaluate him again. He showed he was better than last year when he had little better support but he will need more support. I think there are some QB who makes WR / TE look good and there are QB they need good support I think Wentz is later one. He can be good but with good support. 

[AwesomeAustin]

3 hours ago, buccolts said:

 

So, why aren't the Chiefs in the SB, again? Bills? Bucs?

You mean you can have it all and NOT make the SB?

 

Now me? There's no one way, but I prefer being solid everywhere, creative coaching, and solid execution.

If we're going to be elite anywhere, I'd prefer it's the trenches.

Chiefs lost to the Bengals. Bills lost to the Chiefs.  Bucs lost to the Rams. 
 

Yes, you can be really good everywhere and still not make the SB.  Getting there is hard, winning it is even harder. 
 

I would rather have a solid OL and running game but elite DL, WR and secondary. Of course a killer QB as well. 
 

Good play in the trenches is critical but only part of what makes a great team.  I love smash mouth football but the game is evolving.  Being able to run it down your opponents throat and play keep away is awesome until your defense has an off day and you are down a couple scores. Colts are slowly figuring it out and getting there.  We are just not used to struggling.  It will come around

[philba101]

4 hours ago, Flash7 said:

I think we learned the usual things:

1. You need a quality QB to take you to the playoffs and then make plays to take you to the Super bowl.
2. You need weapons over O-line. Of course it helps to have a good O-line but more importantly,  you need multiple weapons like J. Chase, T. Higgins, T. Hill, T. Kelce O. Beckham, C. Kupp, etc... We currently only have M. Pittman and then a lot of players who would be third or fourth stringers on most other teams, (except T.Y. who in the right system could still contribute. P. Campbell if he can ever stay healthy, but he hasn't been able to, so it's nearly impossible to say what he's capable of moving forward. I would classify him as a bonus if he ever meets his potential, but wouldn't rely on it).
3. You need a good run game, but not necessarily a great one. Having the best run game in the league makes you too predictable. It becomes your bread and butter, and you rely on it too often when things get difficult. In the playoffs, you will match up against the best teams, who usually have good defenses to negate the run. That's why there were no 100 yard rushers in recent playoff games. In the last few must win games, Reich's propensity to run out of stacked formations telegraphed the play for opposing defenses and J.T. was limited due to Reich's over reliance on the run. It became much too predictable.
4. You need a good defense with playmakers -- defenses that can match up with the leagues top offenses and make stops on third down. 

Good analysis. I especially agree that the Colts do not have enough weapons. Unfortunately, Ballard and Reich don't seem to agree even though it is abundantly clear from watching the playoffs.

[John Waylon]

I guess this is just an era of mediocrity for the Colts. We’ve been spending years a QB away from being ready to win in January, and it sure seems like that is going to be the case for the foreseeable future. 
 

I’m starting to believe we’ll be looking back at this generation of Colts football in 10 years and saying “We wasted the primes of Nelson/Leonard/Taylor because we couldn’t get a QB to put us over the top.” 

Even if Wentz hadn’t % the bed down the stretch and we had made the playoffs, and maybe even won a game, this team still isn’t getting past the Chiefs or the Bengals in the final rounds of the playoffs. 

We just aren’t in that class, and that’s what it takes now, and that’s what it’s gonna take for a long time. 
 

[EastStreet]

16 hours ago, Nickster said:

That and most of the evidence since Emmit Smith in the early 90s or so seems to indicate that the running back is not all that valuable of a position.

 

It’s just not.

 

I would agree to an extent.

 

A good RB is still needed. A few great RBs in the league can still win you some games on their own. Not having a good or great RB can lose you some games.

 

But overall the analytics see less value in general from the rushing game, and more from the passing game.

 

And more than anything else, the big second contracts for RBs are rarely worth it. RBs are more fungible than ever, and a good OL paired with a good rook is probably a better investment from a production standpoint. Love having JT. Absolutely love him. Glad though that he's on a rook deal.