What I'd do with Allen and Jones....

[NewColtsFan]

 

A heads-up,  most of you will not like my idea....

 

But.....

 

I'd ask both to restructure with the chance to get their money back through incentives.      I would not cut them if they did not agree.    I think the Colts are better with them, than without them.     But I do want the restructure and I think we'd get it from both.

 

Hard to believe Jones wouldn't restructure as he did last year.     Is he going to get a better deal on the FA market?     Not likely.

 

I think Allan, who has a great reputation,  would also do it.    He's just seen Doyle take a deal where he's betting on himself to succeed.    I think Allan would be willing to do that too.    Restructure would be win-win for all parties.

 

That said.....

 

Even if they don't, then they've both been put on notice that the team was not happy with what they got from them in 2016 and they should expect that if they're not better in 2017,  then they won't be with the Colts in 2018.     

 

Hopefully this lights a fire under them.      And so I think we'd get better versions of both players.

 

I know this won't be popular,  but this is my view for what's best for the Colts in 2017.....

 

[Coltfreak]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

A heads-up,  most of you will not like my idea....

 

But.....

 

I'd ask both to restructure with the chance to get their money back through incentives.      I would not cut them if they did not agree.    I think the Colts are better with them, than without them.     But I do want the restructure and I think we'd get it from both.

 

Hard to believe Jones wouldn't restructure as he did last year.     Is he going to get a better deal on the FA market?     Not likely.

 

I think Allan, who has a great reputation,  would also do it.    He's just seen Doyle take a deal where he's betting on himself to succeed.    I think Allan would be willing to do that too.    Restructure would be win-win for all parties.

 

That said.....

 

Even if they don't, then they've both been put on notice that the team was not happy with what they got from them in 2016 and they should expect that if they're not better in 2017,  then they won't be with the Colts in 2018.     

 

Hopefully this lights a fire under them.      And so I think we'd get better versions of both players.

 

I know this won't be popular,  but this is my view for what's best for the Colts in 2017.....

 

Under this scenario why would they want to restructure?  They are better off where they are at.  If they get released next yr they get another payday.  If they stay as is they make more than they deserve.   

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Under this scenario why would they want to restructure?  They are better off where they are at.  If they get released next yr they get another payday.  If they stay as is they make more than they deserve.   

 

Why did Jones restructure last year?      He did.    He likely new he'd be cut.    I'm not going to tell them up front that I'm not cutting them.     I'm going to bluff them.     If they call it, then they're on notice that the team could cut them at any point going forward.    Stuff happens.     Jones can't think he's safe after last season,  so I'd expect he'd be willing to restructure.     He's given us almost nothing after 3 years.

 

As for Allen,  he can't think the Colts have gotten their money's worth out of him.    We picked him over Fleener and I think we got a below average year from him.     Not terrible,  but certainly not what we expected.     He'd restructure because we could draft a quality TE this year.     There are tons of them in this draft,  and, as a rookie they'd be cheaper than Allen.      I think Allen would be willing to do a deal where he can earn his money through incentives....

 

Just my view of things....

 

[Coltfreak]

7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Why did Jones restructure last year?      He did.    He likely new he'd be cut.    I'm not going to tell them up front that I'm not cutting them.     I'm going to bluff them.     If they call it, then they're on notice that the team could cut them at any point going forward.    Stuff happens.     Jones can't think he's safe after last season,  so I'd expect he'd be willing to restructure.     He's given us almost nothing after 3 years.

 

As for Allen,  he can't think the Colts have gotten their money's worth out of him.    We picked him over Fleener and I think we got a below average year from him.     Not terrible,  but certainly not what we expected.     He'd restructure because we could draft a quality TE this year.     There are tons of them in this draft,  and, as a rookie they'd be cheaper than Allen.      I think Allen would be willing to do a deal where he can earn his money through incentives....

 

Just my view of things....

 

Jones probably needs to just be cut.  Allen could and would call your bluff knowing he would become the #1 TE available in FA this yr.    He'd end up a Patriot because they are in need.  

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Coltfreak said:

Jones probably needs to just be cut.  Allen could and would call your bluff knowing he would become the #1 TE available in FA this yr.    He'd end up a Patriot because they are in need.  

 

But if he's a Patriot,  he'd be signed at a MUCH cheaper contract.

 

The Pats don't pay market value very often.    They look for veterans who are willing to play for less so they can have a shot at winning the SB.

 

 

[Colts1324]

Allen would probably just say cut me honestly. He would get th guaranteed money and a big offer from the titans or a team that wants a TE who can block and can be a good red zone threat. I'm sure he knows Doyle(and Swoope will too) is going to take a lot of snaps away from him.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Allen needs to do nothing but come to camp IMO. All this Allen hate is hysterical!! Jones when healthy can play, ahhhh there lies the million dollar question. My bet is he will need to restructure or gone!

[indyagent17]

43 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Under this scenario why would they want to restructure?  They are better off where they are at.  If they get released next yr they get another payday.  If they stay as is they make more than they deserve.   

Jones may work his deal a bit more but Allen will stay put, he is overpaid so why would he change that. I look it this way, he is guaranteed 16million and he is not the hardest worker on the field. He at times look like the old adage got paid, why bother? But I sure hope not. Allen needs to come out on fire and show fans he is here to play hard and win

[Barrdaddy]

Allen is expendable in my opinion. He disappears for long stretches in games. Whereas Doyle and Swoope showed the ability to stretch the field and make plays consistently. Allen needs to take a pay cut or get cut. With that extra money we could have wiggle room to sign more defensive players. This draft is deep enough in the tight end group we could find one to replace Allen. 

[coltsfanmilyman]

I think I read on rotoworld that we could actually save 2 mil and change if we cut allen.  It was in the same "post" about doyle.

[Tmoney]

1 hour ago, coltsfanmilyman said:

I think I read on rotoworld that we could actually save 2 mil and change if we cut allen.  It was in the same "post" about doyle.

Save 2.9 mil but lose 3 mil in dead money. Now that doyle is re signed I couldn't care less what we do with Allen this year. We all know whats ganna happen either next year or 2018 when his pay goes up to 8 mil I believe. Hes good as gone if you ask me, whether this year or next CB will decide. Sure DA can block but that's not worth 6-8mil/yr. As for Art Jones, its hard to understand how he's still on the roster. He doesn't deserve any more money from our organization and I'd bet he wouldn't get any offers from a team unless an injury happened. Art Jones himself is injury prone and honestly not talented never has been.

[rock8591]

What about cutting Art and just re-signing him for the veteran's minimum? I doubt he wants to be anywhere else, nor would he get any offers anywhere else in particular.

[superrep1967]

3 hours ago, Colts1324 said:

Allen would probably just say cut me honestly. He would get th guaranteed money and a big offer from the titans or a team that wants a TE who can block and can be a good red zone threat. I'm sure he knows Doyle(and Swoope will too) is going to take a lot of snaps away from him.

 

You mean butter fingers would get a better deal somewhere else?

[akcolt]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

But if he's a Patriot,  he'd be signed at a MUCH cheaper contract.

 

The Pats don't pay market value very often.    They look for veterans who are willing to play for less so they can have a shot at winning the SB.

 

 

Is Allen's contract really grossly over paying for a guy of this skill set? No it's about right compared to the other TE's. He needs to show up and earn it.  I don't see his motivation to restructure unless we are going to cut him. I don't think we are going to do that yet.

 

Doyle is great and exactly what I thought he'd be given the chance. He was my surprise of the year pick last year. I took a lot of jabs for that. It would seem some of those people now think Doyle is the man and we should move forward without Allen. That's not a good idea in my opinion. Allen and Doyle are a nice pair of TE's.  Swoope gives us good depth. 

 

Grig's always did a nice job a putting outs in contracts. Allens is next year. He either plays better or we move on from him. 

 

Jones I think restructures or he's gone. He might not even have the choice. I would move on from the guy if it were me. 

[gacoop1]

Trade or cut them.

Jones, too injury prone, non productive.

Allen, drops more balls than he catches, overrated.

[The Peytonator]

I'm good with keeping Allen without restructuring. His play hasn't lived up to his pay, but I'm willing to give him another chance to see if he can play up to his potential. 

 

Arthur Jones needs to be cut, probably should have been cut last year. I don't know if the dude just mailed it in after getting paid or if it's really just been bad luck, but I can hardly think of a more utterly useless free agent acquisition. 

[SaturdayAllDay]

2 hours ago, gacoop1 said:

Trade or cut them.

Jones, too injury prone, non productive.

Allen, drops more balls than he catches, overrated.

Allen had 36 drops this year? 

His stat sheet only shows 3.... odd.... 

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Allen had 36 drops this year? 

His stat sheet only shows 3.... odd.... 

It's more when he drops them, wide open, no one around drive on the line and he chokes 

[JColts72]

Dump them, was dumb to overpay Allen and draft him too, Jones is just  a blob collecting cash.

[Colts1324]

6 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

You mean butter fingers would get a better deal somewhere else?

I think if Jermaine Gresham can get 7 and Bennett can get maybe 9 then Allen can get 6 from a team. Browns, 49ers, Titans. And plus he gets the guaranteed money from us. 

[SaturdayAllDay]

11 minutes ago, csmopar said:

It's more when he drops them, wide open, no one around drive on the line and he chokes 

Hes the opposite of Clutch, for sure. Just dont like the ridiculous exaggerations that seem to have become the standard narrative. 

 

Is he worth what we pay him? Nope. But hes hardly the worst TE in the league. Hes a good inline blocker and that is mostly what we use him for. Id feel better if he only made 3-4 Million a year, but that ship has sailed and the guy who screwed up was fired. In a few days his 2017 salary is guaranteed so chances of him being cut are dwindling every passing day. If it doesnt happen in the next 2 days it wont happen at all. 

 

I personally hope we grab an UDFA TE from this deep draft class and keep him on the PS to groom and replace Allen by this time next year. We seem to be pretty good at getting UDFA TEs coached up and ready to contribute. No resources used or wasted this year and we can focus on getting this defense into at least presentable shape. 

[lollygagger8]

They wouldn't do it, but I would like to see more incentive laced deals (league wide). Especially something like {games played = bonus}

[SaturdayAllDay]

6 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

They wouldn't do it, but I would like to see more incentive laced deals (league wide). Especially something like {games played = bonus}

Allen already gets that to an extent. He gets a per game bonus of $31,250 (which accounts for 500k of his cap hit this year). But it could definitely be higher. 

[csmopar]

9 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Hes the opposite of Clutch, for sure. Just dont like the ridiculous exaggerations that seem to have become the standard narrative. 

 

Is he worth what we pay him? Nope. But hes hardly the worst TE in the league. Hes a good inline blocker and that is mostly what we use him for. Id feel better if he only made 3-4 Million a year, but that ship has sailed and the guy who screwed up was fired. In a few days his 2017 salary is guaranteed so chances of him being cut are dwindling every passing day. If it doesnt happen in the next 2 days it wont happen at all. 

 

I personally hope we grab an UDFA TE from this deep draft class and keep him on the PS to groom and replace Allen by this time next year. We seem to be pretty good at getting UDFA TEs coached up and ready to contribute. No resources used or wasted this year and we can focus on getting this defense into at least presentable shape. 

I think he's just mediocure and think we should have kept Fleener.  I know what Allen's official stat line says, but here's the thing, drops are tough to score and consistency in stat keeping of drops is fubar'd, I personally remember watching allen drop 3 balls in one game last season, including 1 in the endzone wide open.......  Reason i remember, my wife got mad at me for screaming at the tv so she flipped the circuit breaker to the living room...

[UKColt13]

Both are decent players but they are overpaid and can't stay healthy.

 

Personally I'd cut them both.

[DaColts85]

I can see Art re-working his contract because he probably sees that he does not have a lot of value on the market.  CB also can see that if he stays healthy he can definitely be a helpful rotational player.  He never stays healthy so when re-working the contract you make that a key factor.  As for Allen, he had a decent year but not an amazing year by any means.  I still do not see why people think he is trash but he was out shined by Doyle that's for sure.  He can continue this year and if he has another bad year then you can look at everything again next year, but he would be stupid to d o anything right now.  Plus I doubt CB wants to have a lot of dead money so it does not make since right now anyways.

[SaturdayAllDay]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

I think he's just mediocure and think we should have kept Fleener.  I know what Allen's official stat line says, but here's the thing, drops are tough to score and consistency in stat keeping of drops is fubar'd, I personally remember watching allen drop 3 balls in one game last season, including 1 in the endzone wide open.......  Reason i remember, my wife got mad at me for screaming at the tv so she flipped the circuit breaker to the living room...

I wanted Allen more than Fleener (though I wasnt willing to pay either of them 7M/Yr). We had Doyle to catch footballs, and with hindsight of knowing that Swoope can catch (which the coaches/GM should know from practice) it made sense to keep Allen. We need a blocking TE to help the young guys on the line and help the running game. I wish we didnt pay so much for it, but that is more on Grigson than anyone else.

 

Blocking is becoming a talent that is hard to find, both for TEs and young OL players. I think the lack of contact practices from the CBA are taking its toll. Just look at the Free Agent group of TEs, most of them are "pass catching TEs" that arent strong blockers. Easy to find and pay 2-4M a year for. It is much easier to teach a player to catch (given all the practice time that can be put into it) than it is to teach them to block. You are looking at 14 practices during the season to teach proper blocking per CBA rules, and every other practice can be used to work on catching. I would prefer to pay someone who knows both, but given a choice between one or the other I would keep the guy who already learned the hard part.  

 

Doyle is showing some really good instincts and skills in his lead blocks as a FB, and I do think given some more practice he can be a solid blocking TE. I think that throwing him to into the trenches a bit more would help, BUT with all the rookies we had last year I understood why they chose to go with Allen rather than have Doyle take his lumps with them. Not saying I necessarily agree with paying Allen 7M to do that, only that I understand why they chose that route. 

 

And as far as the discrepancy in drops, that is a league wide issue. They have a few weird factors that decide a "drop" and it is uniform across the league. Sure Allen probably had more, but then again so did everyone else. I see it as a wash. Everyones numbers should be higher. I know that I saw more than 3 drops from Fleener last year as well, but that is all he was credited with. Its not like someone is just giving Allen, and Allen alone, a break because they like him. 

[Dingus McGirt]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

A heads-up,  most of you will not like my idea....

 

But.....

 

I'd ask both to restructure with the chance to get their money back through incentives.      I would not cut them if they did not agree.    I think the Colts are better with them, than without them.     But I do want the restructure and I think we'd get it from both.

 

Hard to believe Jones wouldn't restructure as he did last year.     Is he going to get a better deal on the FA market?     Not likely.

 

I think Allan, who has a great reputation,  would also do it.    He's just seen Doyle take a deal where he's betting on himself to succeed.    I think Allan would be willing to do that too.    Restructure would be win-win for all parties.

 

That said.....

 

Even if they don't, then they've both been put on notice that the team was not happy with what they got from them in 2016 and they should expect that if they're not better in 2017,  then they won't be with the Colts in 2018.     

 

Hopefully this lights a fire under them.      And so I think we'd get better versions of both players.

 

I know this won't be popular,  but this is my view for what's best for the Colts in 2017.....

 

It's hard to light a fire under the behinds of rich guys.

[csmopar]

37 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

I wanted Allen more than Fleener (though I wasnt willing to pay either of them 7M/Yr). We had Doyle to catch footballs, and with hindsight of knowing that Swoope can catch (which the coaches/GM should know from practice) it made sense to keep Allen. We need a blocking TE to help the young guys on the line and help the running game. I wish we didnt pay so much for it, but that is more on Grigson than anyone else.

 

Blocking is becoming a talent that is hard to find, both for TEs and young OL players. I think the lack of contact practices from the CBA are taking its toll. Just look at the Free Agent group of TEs, most of them are "pass catching TEs" that arent strong blockers. Easy to find and pay 2-4M a year for. It is much easier to teach a player to catch (given all the practice time that can be put into it) than it is to teach them to block. You are looking at 14 practices during the season to teach proper blocking per CBA rules, and every other practice can be used to work on catching. I would prefer to pay someone who knows both, but given a choice between one or the other I would keep the guy who already learned the hard part.  

 

Doyle is showing some really good instincts and skills in his lead blocks as a FB, and I do think given some more practice he can be a solid blocking TE. I think that throwing him to into the trenches a bit more would help, BUT with all the rookies we had last year I understood why they chose to go with Allen rather than have Doyle take his lumps with them. Not saying I necessarily agree with paying Allen 7M to do that, only that I understand why they chose that route. 

 

And as far as the discrepancy in drops, that is a league wide issue. They have a few weird factors that decide a "drop" and it is uniform across the league. Sure Allen probably had more, but then again so did everyone else. I see it as a wash. Everyones numbers should be higher. I know that I saw more than 3 drops from Fleener last year as well, but that is all he was credited with. Its not like someone is just giving Allen, and Allen alone, a break because they like him. 

I agree, especially with the bolded parts.  Allen's drops alone arent the only reason I take issue with him being re-signed.  He's availability is a HUGE reason I can't get behind his contract.  Combine that with his drops, his tendency to disappear in key moments, it's just too much, he's no better than an average TE at best.

[chad72]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

But if he's a Patriot,  he'd be signed at a MUCH cheaper contract.

 

The Pats don't pay market value very often.    They look for veterans who are willing to play for less so they can have a shot at winning the SB.

 

 

 

Yep. DA should know a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush. He could bust his chops blocking and occasionally receiving but he does not have the soft hands of a Gronk or Bennett to elevate their TE receiving that much. He won't get what he is paid by the Colts anywhere else, not with a strong TE draft class. Most teams will pass if he asks for that much. He could get feelers from around the league through his agent as to what they may be willing to pay for DA to try and call the Colts bluff and would very quickly come back down to earth based on a down year in 2016. He can be mad all he wants but this is a business.

[SaturdayAllDay]

Just now, csmopar said:

I agree, especially with the bolded parts.  Allen's drops alone arent the only reason I take issue with him being re-signed.  He's availability is a HUGE reason I can't get behind his contract.  Combine that with his drops, his tendency to disappear in key moments, it's just too much, he's no better than an average TE at best.

He is essentially all we need him to be (an above average blocker) other than his health issues. Unfortunately we are paying him to be something that he isnt. My issue with him is and always will be, the price tag vs what we get out of him. He is a good blocking 2nd string TE and we should have paid him as such. Not as a top 10 #1. I think if we originally resigned him at 3-4 Million a year (comparable to Anthony Fasano, Mercedes Lewis and Brent Celek) then I dont think we would hear much complaining about him. 

[Defjamz26]

I agree. But I wouldn't give Jones the time of day tbh. He's as good as gone.

 

There is no read for Allen to be on the roster for several reasons:

-It's insulting to Doyle to not be the highest paid TE on the roster. He's the #1 TE. Can't have Allen making more than him.

-Dwayne Allen has complained about targets before. His targets are only going to go down with Doyle getting paid. If Swoope is retained, then Allen is really in trouble 

-His red zone production is overrated. He had 6 TDs this year. Take away the ones against a terrible Jets team and he's at 3.

-His blocking doesn't warrant his pay. You don't get that type of money just to block

-This TE class is deep. You could replace him with a guy in any round.

[aaron11]

allen's blocking got luck strip sacked in the most important game of the year.  yes, it was against a really good player, but if he cant make that block then why are we paying him to block?  doyle had more yards this year than DA ever has too

 

AJ has no leverage, he would be lucky to get more than vet minimum on the open market, and might not even get that

 

i would ask both to restructure and if they decline, cut them.  no bluffing

[Valpo2004]

Jones should just be straight up cut.  He's had multiple chances and hasn't put together a good season yet.  The money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

Allen I would like to see restructure but I think in the future we will have to cut him.  

 

Honestly extending him was a terrible idea.  His best year was his rookie year.  That's not a good thing.

[throwing BBZ]

 I would say they won`t bargain with Allen for his 2017 salary that is BELOW $5M.
 IF they acquire a good blocking TE somehow, then i believe Allen would be trade able at this number, before the season begins.
 The idea that Art doesn`t already have a good idea that this years salary, if offered, will be similar to last years number, is laughable. Somewhere around $2 - 2.5M
 I believe they are keeping him in house now to let him get healthy with access to our trainers and such.
 There is no rush to cut him for the cap space. And a healthy Art could be a solid rotational player in a position of great need. I wish him the best.

[fatboy]

Losing Allen saves money but does not necessarily result in a better team in the field.  His position would need replaced, but how effectively and at what cost?  Plus he is willing to block, and protecting Luck is a high priority.  Jones, on the other hand, has not come close to justifying his salary and him on the field is hardly noticeable.  

[Dark Superman]

Jones should be playing on a league mininum deal that's loaded with incentives.

Allen should take a pay cut too, but that won't happen.

We have Doyle and Swoope who continues to get better. If Swoope continues to improve, I can see the Colts cutting or trading Allen after next season.

Should of kept Fleener.

[superrep1967]

5 hours ago, Colts1324 said:

I think if Jermaine Gresham can get 7 and Bennett can get maybe 9 then Allen can get 6 from a team. Browns, 49ers, Titans. And plus he gets the guaranteed money from us. 

 

Well, I'd love for us to trade him I can't stand Allen. But maybe another team would be dumb enough to take him in a deal.

[Colts1324]

1 hour ago, superrep1967 said:

Well, I'd love for us to trade him I can't stand Allen. But maybe another team would be dumb enough to take him in a deal.

I think it largely depends on how Pagano feels about Allen. And also if they feel confident in Swoope as the No. 2 Tight End. 

[masterlock]

17 hours ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Allen needs to do nothing but come to camp IMO. All this Allen hate is hysterical!! Jones when healthy can play, ahhhh there lies the million dollar question. My bet is he will need to restructure or gone!

I agree with your remarks on the "Allen hate". It really is ridiculous. They guy had one down year. So has every other NFL athlete at some point. 

 

Regarding Jones, I don't think he's ever been particularly impressive. I'd call him average at best. Add to that the injuries, and I think you really just have to know when to cut your losses.