Trent or Dorsett?

[azcolt]

Who is Grigson's biggest flop? Maybe Werner should get some love here, too.

[Colts_Fan12]

Easily Werner way more useless then the other 2 

[RockThatBlue]

Trent and its not even close. Dorsett is bad but he at least sometimes makes a play. It was a miracle anytime Trent got past the LOS.

[IinD]

Dorsett, although playing poorly, is definitely not being used correctly or 'coached-up', totally JMO. I have no proof of anything obviously.

 

This staff just doesn't seem like they stress the fundamental things like Dungy ALWAYS stressed. We saw it countless times on those insider shows and/or Nfl DVD's. Small things were preached so in theory you understand everything back to front.

 

We're like the wind, we change every minute/week to week. 

 

I feel like they're winging it (not literally obviously), more reactive and not much thought or prep on how to attack using our O along with a stubbornness to do some really dumb things and repeating them. Allen blocking Clowney, Bad 4th down calls (multiple games), questionable judgment like that really long FG today.

 

We play like a dumb team. I think the team gets it from their bosses (coaches). You can't tell me we can't get more from what we have, however limited our strength spots are. This team has no rhythm to it on O and  D is never consistent because everyone is always hurt and some guys are asked to do things they're not good at like dropping into coverage.

 

I can keep going, but it's a long story you've all seen playing out each week.

 

Long rant, apologize.

[ReMeDy]

I believe coaching is a huge issue on this team. I understand they recognized this issue at the o-line, so they brought Cam Cameron in, which I believe is an upgrade, but now what about better tackling and catching? We need to preach better fundamentals, and the coaches could use some more fundamentals too -- no 4th & 1 HB slip screens or that infamous Patriots 4th down punt call:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i7VKQwDS2s

^ The reason that screwed up in the first place was because the coaches didn't practice the play enough with that snapper, hence the confusion. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!

[AZColt11]

Although Dorsett hasn't shown much yet and had a horrible day, I don't think you can lump him in there just yet.  For one, he;s still on the team whereas the other guys are not.  Two, he's still contributing SOMETHING albeit not nearly where we as fans would like to see it.  The others contributed absolutely nothing and their replacements were CLEARLY better.  Perhaps Rogers should get more time over Dorsett, IDK.  Still too early for me though.

 

I still maintain that, at the time, I applauded the trade for Richardson and thought it was a great acquisition.  I didn't like giving up a 1st but knew that a guy that young and picked that high would come at a steep price so I at least understood it.  It just turns out Grigs (and myself included) were wrong.  I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong and I was.  It happens.  Difference is I'm not paid to make those decisions, Grigs is, so he will bear responsibility regardless of what I think of his moves.  And bottom line, Richardson didn't make the trade.  It aint on him.

 

For me, it is Werner, hands down.  Dude didn't do much in the few years he was here and went to another team and didn't even make it out of their training camp.  He was given EVERY opportunity, more than I would have given him, and he failed to make ANY noticeable impact.  Obviously he was just a huge bust.

[Gavin]

This is not even close and its I ran for a 3.5 ypc  total before I was traded for a 1st round pick Trent Richardson. Dorsett is going to get it together. He is still young and has not been thrown at much. His day is coming

[Smoke317]

1 hour ago, IinD said:

Dorsett, although playing poorly, is definitely not being used correctly or 'coached-up', totally JMO. I have no proof of anything obviously.

 

This staff just doesn't seem like they stress the fundamental things like Dungy ALWAYS stressed. We saw it countless times on those insider shows and/or Nfl DVD's. Small things were preached so in theory you understand everything back to front.

 

We're like the wind, we change every minute/week to week. 

 

I feel like they're winging it (not literally obviously), more reactive and not much thought or prep on how to attack using our O along with a stubbornness to do some really dumb things and repeating them. Allen blocking Clowney, Bad 4th down calls (multiple games), questionable judgment like that really long FG today.

 

We play like a dumb team. I think the team gets it from their bosses (coaches). You can't tell me we can't get more from what we have, however limited our strength spots are. This team has no rhythm to it on O and  D is never consistent because everyone is always hurt and some guys are asked to do things they're not good at like dropping into coverage.

 

I can keep going, but it's a long story you've all seen playing out each week.

 

Long rant, apologize.

Damn great post. Well said. Couldn't agree more. 

[Smoke317]

Werner. 

[Jackie Daytona]

Richardson

[Jackie Daytona]

Only thing this team executes is themselves

 

[csmopar]

Trent Richardson. Why, because he had TWO first rounders given for him. One from us and one from the Browns. And the fact he was a number 3 pick. Honestly, he's right there with Ryan leaf as the biggest bust in NFL history

[Malakai432]

Trent, but I have no idea why Dorsett is as bad as he is.  I feel they could get much better production from Chester even.

[gacoop1]

You smoked it Smoke317.  Add the 30+ yr olds that need to go as well.  Cole, Adams, Jackson, Gore, Vinateri, Jones, Langford, oh heck just blow up the team and start from Ground Zero...

[WarGhost21]

Good grief. How many times are people going to complain about Dorsett being a bust while he's not even through his second season yet? He's only played in 23 games so far in his career. Receivers usually wait until their third season to break out. Reggie Wayne, who everyone says is heading to Canton someday, started out slow too. Does that mean Reggie was a bust? Let's compare the two. Through each players first 13 games (Reggie played in 13 his rookie season, Dorsett had 11, so add the first 2 from this season), and the numbers are strikingly similar. Dorsett had 23 receptions for 349 yards and a TD, while Wayne had 27 receptions for 345 yards and no TDs. Yes, he has a drop problem as was clearly visible yesterday, but cut him some slack. He's third on the WR depth chart with a QB who likes throwing to his tight ends and dumping it off to running backs. Pair with that he doesn't have time to burn defenses with the way our offensive line doesn't want to block anybody and he's actually been decent to solid in his career. Comparing him to Richardson is downright disrespectful IMO.

[Mr.Debonair]

If Dorsett was drafted where he should have been, he wouldn't be part of these type discussions

[James Ducheteau]

The thread ask's which is Grigson biggest flop, not which player is the bigger bust. In that sense I would say Dorsett, but only because after having flopped on Trent and Werner already with first rounders, the taking of another "iffy" first rounder is really a huge mistake and one that was completely unacceptable, regardless of how Dorsett's career turns out.

[lollygagger8]

[Myles]

You guys are making it too hard by narrowing it down to players.   Grigson made it easy to just pick which year draft be busted on.   The whole freaking draft!

[IndyTrav]

1 hour ago, WarGhost21 said:

Good grief. How many times are people going to complain about Dorsett being a bust while he's not even through his second season yet? He's only played in 23 games so far in his career. Receivers usually wait until their third season to break out. Reggie Wayne, who everyone says is heading to Canton someday, started out slow too. Does that mean Reggie was a bust? Let's compare the two. Through each players first 13 games (Reggie played in 13 his rookie season, Dorsett had 11, so add the first 2 from this season), and the numbers are strikingly similar. Dorsett had 23 receptions for 349 yards and a TD, while Wayne had 27 receptions for 345 yards and no TDs. Yes, he has a drop problem as was clearly visible yesterday, but cut him some slack. He's third on the WR depth chart with a QB who likes throwing to his tight ends and dumping it off to running backs. Pair with that he doesn't have time to burn defenses with the way our offensive line doesn't want to block anybody and he's actually been decent to solid in his career. Comparing him to Richardson is downright disrespectful IMO.

 

I'm pretty sure the "it takes 3yrs to develop a WR" narrative is dead. It's a different league now and players are expected to show something right out of gate. 

[tikyle]

Trent and Werner were 1 and 1A.  Dorsett isn't that bad yet.  He gets open.  That's half the battle.  The problem is he isn't catching half the balls that hit his hands.

 

With Trent and Werner they didn't even have half the battle.  Neither had great speed or technique or whatever for their positions to even have a glimmer of hope that they may be something.

[Dingus McGirt]

8 hours ago, IinD said:

Dorsett, although playing poorly, is definitely not being used correctly or 'coached-up', totally JMO. I have no proof of anything obviously.

 

This staff just doesn't seem like they stress the fundamental things like Dungy ALWAYS stressed. We saw it countless times on those insider shows and/or Nfl DVD's. Small things were preached so in theory you understand everything back to front.

 

We're like the wind, we change every minute/week to week. 

 

I feel like they're winging it (not literally obviously), more reactive and not much thought or prep on how to attack using our O along with a stubbornness to do some really dumb things and repeating them. Allen blocking Clowney, Bad 4th down calls (multiple games), questionable judgment like that really long FG today.

 

We play like a dumb team. I think the team gets it from their bosses (coaches). You can't tell me we can't get more from what we have, however limited our strength spots are. This team has no rhythm to it on O and  D is never consistent because everyone is always hurt and some guys are asked to do things they're not good at like dropping into coverage.

 

I can keep going, but it's a long story you've all seen playing out each week.

 

Long rant, apologize.

Dungy coached prior to the current garbage CBA, IIRC. 

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Such a young drafting career and already so many busts. * amazing. 

[#12.]

10 hours ago, azcolt said:

Who is Grigson's biggest flop? Maybe Werner should get some love here, too.

No mention of all the money wasted in free agency?

[runthepost]

3 hours ago, WarGhost21 said:

Good grief. How many times are people going to complain about Dorsett being a bust while he's not even through his second season yet? He's only played in 23 games so far in his career. Receivers usually wait until their third season to break out. Reggie Wayne, who everyone says is heading to Canton someday, started out slow too. Does that mean Reggie was a bust? Let's compare the two. Through each players first 13 games (Reggie played in 13 his rookie season, Dorsett had 11, so add the first 2 from this season), and the numbers are strikingly similar. Dorsett had 23 receptions for 349 yards and a TD, while Wayne had 27 receptions for 345 yards and no TDs. Yes, he has a drop problem as was clearly visible yesterday, but cut him some slack. He's third on the WR depth chart with a QB who likes throwing to his tight ends and dumping it off to running backs. Pair with that he doesn't have time to burn defenses with the way our offensive line doesn't want to block anybody and he's actually been decent to solid in his career. Comparing him to Richardson is downright disrespectful IMO.

He sucks. Reggie played in a run offense while dorset plays in a pass heavy offense. He had 5 drops yesterday some receivers don't have that in a single season 

[#12.]

3 hours ago, WarGhost21 said:

Good grief. How many times are people going to complain about Dorsett being a bust while he's not even through his second season yet? He's only played in 23 games so far in his career. Receivers usually wait until their third season to break out. Reggie Wayne, who everyone says is heading to Canton someday, started out slow too. Does that mean Reggie was a bust? Let's compare the two. Through each players first 13 games (Reggie played in 13 his rookie season, Dorsett had 11, so add the first 2 from this season), and the numbers are strikingly similar. Dorsett had 23 receptions for 349 yards and a TD, while Wayne had 27 receptions for 345 yards and no TDs. Yes, he has a drop problem as was clearly visible yesterday, but cut him some slack. He's third on the WR depth chart with a QB who likes throwing to his tight ends and dumping it off to running backs. Pair with that he doesn't have time to burn defenses with the way our offensive line doesn't want to block anybody and he's actually been decent to solid in his career. Comparing him to Richardson is downright disrespectful IMO.

I suppose you could say the same about every receiver who sucks early on - just wait, he'll turn into Reggie Wayne.  With how many will it actually happen?  The vast majority are exactly what they appear to be - busts.  Very few will turn into Reggie Wayne.

[rockywoj]

Werner and Trent.  Dorsett is at least still on the team, so there is still some hope.  At this point, though, looking like a really bad selection.  Year two, he should be contributing more than what you can get out of a rookie free agent like Chester Rogers.  He may have more catches than Rogers, but I figure Rogers will have brought just as much to the table if he were inserted in place of Dorsett.

 

I generally really like to give the benefit of the doubt to players, but I am really souring on Dorsett ... or is it that I am completely sour on the offensive game planning that utterly fails to exploit the strengths of the players on hand?

 

Anyway, Werner ... a swing and a miss.  Good things were being said about him when he was selected.  Like more than half of first round draft picks, though, he turned into nothing.

 

The Trade for Richardson made perfect sense to me, even though I would not have advocated giving up a first rounder for him.  Despite the price, I was excited.  I don't think that anybody really thought he would be the bust he proved to be.

 

I really disliked the selection of Dorsett, for it completely ignored team needs and I personally believe you need to build a roster moreso than this BPA without regard for team need mantra that seems to be so (wrongly imho) in vogue these days.  Despite disliking the pick, though, I expected that if Dorsett is as good as they were claiming, he would be an impact player that gets used in the appropriate way.  Instead, two years in, now, he has been of basically zero impact and he is certainly NOT being used properly.  I still hope that they can salvage use out of him, but it sure is looking like a waste of a 1st round pick for a non impactful back up.

 

[BCoop]

1 minute ago, runthepost said:

He sucks. Reggie played in a run offense while dorset plays in a pass heavy offense. He had 5 drops yesterday some receivers don't have that in a single season 

 

8 targets minus 3 receptions does not equal 5 drops. The type of offense also is not the whole story. Reggie was a #3 option day 1 but nearly #2 if it wasn't for Marcus Pollard's 47 catches in '01. Phillip is a #4 option by default and sometimes #5 if Gore or Allen are involved in the passing game. This kind of logic makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion on where Dorsett is in his development process.

 

The jury is still out on him no matter how much reactionary behavior happens around here. There needs to be a greater emphasis on how this coaching staff is developing him and how they want to use him in games. They seem confused about what they want his long-term role to be in this offense. As a result, it doesn't look to me like he has the confidence in himself to be successful.

 

His skillset lends itself to being a deep ball threat. Unfortunately, that is also TY and Moncrief's strength so it puts Phillip in situations in which he isn't ready to succeed.

[BCoop]

6 minutes ago, #12. said:

I suppose you could say the same about every receiver who sucks early on - just wait, he'll turn into Reggie Wayne.  With how many will it actually happen?  The vast majority are exactly what they appear to be - busts.  Very few will turn into Reggie Wayne.

 

Too many are fixated on the AJ Greens, Julio Jones, Amari Coopers, OBJs, and Antonio Browns of the world. There are PLENTY of receivers that take a few years to get going. Are all of them 1st rounders? Not by any means. But calling a receiver a bust in his 2nd year when we've seen the potential is shortsighted at best. Take a look at the first 2 years for any of these guys, then tell me if they should be considered busts:

 

Emmanuel Sanders (3rd rd)

Jordy Nelson (2nd rd)

Davante Adams (2nd rd)

Demaryius Thomas (1st rd)

Terrelle Pryor (3rd rd)

 

I spent about a minute just looking at this year's leading receivers list. I'm sure you'd find more if someone felt inclined.

[deedub75]

The entire 2013 draft class?

[Thewholefnshow28]

It is easily Trent because we already had NFL tape on Trent Richardson.  You had two seasons of tape on him.  Like any rookie, there is a risk that he will never live up to his play in college.  Grigson thought some how we could magically fix what was already on tape and it failed miserably.  

 

With draft picks there is always a risk because you just never know what you are going to get.

[#12.]

1 minute ago, BCoop said:

 

Too many are fixated on the AJ Greens, Julio Jones, Amari Coopers, OBJs, and Antonio Browns of the world. There are PLENTY of receivers that take a few years to get going. Are all of them 1st rounders? Not by any means. But calling a receiver a bust in his 2nd year when we've seen the potential is shortsighted at best. Take a look at the first 2 years for any of these guys, then tell me if they should be considered busts:

 

Emmanuel Sanders (3rd rd)

Jordy Nelson (2nd rd)

Davante Adams (2nd rd)

Demaryius Thomas (1st rd)

Terrelle Pryor (3rd rd)

 

I spent about a minute just looking at this year's leading receivers list. I'm sure you'd find more if someone felt inclined.

 So with Dorsett we have another Jordy Nelson, D. Thomas or Reggie Wayne on our hands, and we arrive at that conclusion, not because he has shown something through two years, but because he's shown absolutely nothing?

 

So with Moncrief, who has shown a little something, what is his ceiling?  Is he the next Antonio Brown?

 

Odds are, they're exactly what they appear to be, and will not turn into elite receivers.

 

 

 

[BCoop]

1 minute ago, #12. said:

 So with Dorsett we have another Jordy Nelson, D. Thomas or Reggie Wayne on our hands, and we arrive at that conclusion, not because he has shown something through two years, but because he's shown absolutely nothing?

 

So with Moncrief, who has shown a little something, what is his ceiling?  Is he the next Antonio Brown?

 

Odds are, they're exactly what they appear to be, and will not turn into elite receivers.

 

 

 

 

You are entitled to your own opinion, but don't twist my post to support your own conclusion.

 

My only point was that not every successful receiver is a #1 or #2 option their first two years. Nothing more.

 

To say he's shown absolutely nothing is untrue and speaks to your unwillingness to consider his situation. Dorsett has shown his ability in the deep passing game numerous times. Whether it's making plays on jump balls or drawing penalties against corners/safeties that can't keep up with his speed, he brings value to an offense that needs that skillset. Unfortunately, that's not how he's used most of the time.

 

He's not there yet but he doesn't suck and he certainly isn't "what he appears to be" at the age of 23.

[Valpo2004]

Here is how they rank in terms of how badly the busted.

 

1. Werner - Could not do a single thing well.  Couldn't cover, didn't stand out when put in against scrubs in pre-season games.  

 

2. Richardson - He gets one advantage over Werner.  He could reliably catch the ball out of the backfield and fight for some positive yards from there.  I don't think he was a terrible blocker either.  

 

Of course the problem is that he was built to be a between the tackles runner and he had no vision.  

 

3. Dorsette - He can sometimes catch the ball and get upfield.  And his sheer speed does help him pull in some big pass interference calls.  

[runthepost]

57 minutes ago, BCoop said:

 

8 targets minus 3 receptions does not equal 5 drops. The type of offense also is not the whole story. Reggie was a #3 option day 1 but nearly #2 if it wasn't for Marcus Pollard's 47 catches in '01. Phillip is a #4 option by default and sometimes #5 if Gore or Allen are involved in the passing game. This kind of logic makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion on where Dorsett is in his development process.

 

The jury is still out on him no matter how much reactionary behavior happens around here. There needs to be a greater emphasis on how this coaching staff is developing him and how they want to use him in games. They seem confused about what they want his long-term role to be in this offense. As a result, it doesn't look to me like he has the confidence in himself to be successful.

 

His skillset lends itself to being a deep ball threat. Unfortunately, that is also TY and Moncrief's strength so it puts Phillip in situations in which he isn't ready to succeed.

Colts play by play radio said he had 5 drops

[Gavin]

3 hours ago, IndyTrav said:

12 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Here is how they rank in terms of how badly the busted.

 

1. Werner - Could not do a single thing well.  Couldn't cover, didn't stand out when put in against scrubs in pre-season games.  

 

2. Richardson - He gets one advantage over Werner.  He could reliably catch the ball out of the backfield and fight for some positive yards from there.  I don't think he was a terrible blocker either.  

 

Of course the problem is that he was built to be a between the tackles runner and he had no vision.  

 

3. Dorsette - He can sometimes catch the ball and get upfield.  And his sheer speed does help him pull in some big pass interference calls.  

I'm pretty sure the "it takes 3yrs to develop a WR" narrative is dead. It's a different league now and players are expected to show something right out of gate. 

Actually Werner was solid in run contain most often. I have no idea why this has me quoting two people

[Colts_Fan12]

22 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Here is how they rank in terms of how badly the busted.

 

1. Werner - Could not do a single thing well.  Couldn't cover, didn't stand out when put in against scrubs in pre-season games.  

 

2. Richardson - He gets one advantage over Werner.  He could reliably catch the ball out of the backfield and fight for some positive yards from there.  I don't think he was a terrible blocker either.  

 

Of course the problem is that he was built to be a between the tackles runner and he had no vision.  

 

3. Dorsette - He can sometimes catch the ball and get upfield.  And his sheer speed does help him pull in some big pass interference calls.  

I agree I can't put anyone ahead of Werner he was awful like you said couldn't even compete against scrubs is preseason 

[Nostrils]

something that drives me crazy about Dorsett, and a lot of other young players that I see today is, the whining...

 

ok dude you dropped ANOTHER ball, but don't flail your arms around, punch the ground or just have that look on your face like you're angry and confused.  Act like you've been there before and keep it moving.

[BCoop]

10 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Colts play by play radio said he had 5 drops

 

They would be wrong then.

Look at the stats. Dorsett has 2 drops for the year. Guessing only 1 was an official drop yesterday. The rest were either tipped/broken up. 

 

Fun fact: For all the hate Dorsett gets about drops, he only has a 3.8% drop rate with 3 games to go. Of rotational players, higher drop rates are Dwayne Allen at 7% and TY at 4.7%. Gore, Moncrief, and Doyle have lower rates than Dorsett.

 

Another stat: Dorsett has the lowest conversion rate of any player on the team at 50.9%. If they aren't drops, then that tells me he's not being put in the right situations by either Luck or the coaching staff (or both).

[Nostrils]

9 minutes ago, BCoop said:

 

They would be wrong then.

Look at the stats. Dorsett has 2 drops for the year. Guessing only 1 was an official drop yesterday. The rest were either tipped/broken up. 

 

Fun fact: For all the hate Dorsett gets about drops, he only has a 3.8% drop rate with 3 games to go. Of rotational players, higher drop rates are Dwayne Allen at 7% and TY at 4.7%. Gore, Moncrief, and Doyle have lower rates than Dorsett.

 

Another stat: Dorsett has the lowest conversion rate of any player on the team at 50.9%. If they aren't drops, then that tells me he's not being put in the right situations by either Luck or the coaching staff (or both).

 

 

dang, seems like he's had more than 2 for the season?...