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RockThatBlue

Chuck Pagano complaints (merge)

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2 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

First off. No, I'm not ready to fire Pagano. That's not happening any time soon.

 

First problem. Granted its two games in, we still are having slow starts. That appears to not have gotten better.

 

Second problem. The team is too flipping undisciplined! We have penalties at the absolute worst times game after game. We shoot ourselves in the foot way too often. 

 

These are not new problems. These have been there since Pagano was hired.

 

Thoughts?

I was just saying this in a topic I made earlier in the week. Whether it's coaching or talent, the same issues continue to plague this team. Injuries played a part but we were dominated on the ground on both lines. The Colts offense will never be consistently explosive Untill they can run the ball and have a RB that scared opposing DC's. Can't go pass happy against a Dirty but talented secondary.

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2 hours ago, NorthernBlue said:

Especially the one on the third down right after they tied the game. If they got the ball back there, it would have been huge. That call gave Denver the momentum back.

that was a bogus call, Jim Nance after he and Phil saw the replay, "Did you see anything here Phil?", Phil Simms, "Yea I did, Nothing !!!"   That should tell you all you need to know on that bogus call -- would have been a HUGE stop and opportunity for the Colts to go up and not give the Broncos momentum.  It was a killer indeed.
 

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2 hours ago, NorthernBlue said:

Especially the one on the third down right after they tied the game. If they got the ball back there, it would have been huge. That call gave Denver the momentum back.

To me that was a back breaking call because our Defense was still fresh at the time and we had huge momentum. We would've got the ball back at 13-13 and our Defense getting more rest. That interference call was a terrible call! REFS can influence a game even in the middle of it without it being noticeable like on a last drive, etc. but fans that have high IQ Football know 1 play can swing a whole game. That was it right there. It's not sour grapes because we still had our chances but that call swung the momentum of the game which is fact.

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6 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Zimmers Vikings defense/toughness is what I thought Pagano was going to bring 

Zimmer also has a lot more talent to work with on defense.  It wasn't that long ago that the patriots lacked talent on D and were near the bottom in defense.  I don't like Chuck, but this defense is talent deficient.

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1 hour ago, Chris Dmytrow said:

Bad starts are a result of bad coaching.

If I were to quantify it, I'd say this is something like 65% a talent issue and 35% coaching. 

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14 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Zimmer also has a lot more talent to work with on defense.  It wasn't that long ago that the patriots lacked talent on D and were near the bottom in defense.  I don't like Chuck, but this defense is talent deficient.

Their effort, attitude and toughness are rarely in question. Unlike a Pagano lead team. While there may have been more talent, it was not by much

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1 minute ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Their effort, attitude and toughness are rarely in question. Unlike a Pagano lead team. While there may have been more talent, it was not by much

Defensively, it's by a country mile.

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1 hour ago, James said:

I'm tired of him. Tired of his conservative approach. Tired of his inability to fix things (yeah we are injured right now, but what about the last couple YEARS?!). Tired of his hollow words. Tired of looking at his sad face on the sideline, especially his sad eyebrows and sad eyes. Wish Irsay would just terminate his contract on the spot.

I'm tired of being one of the most injured teams every single year. I'm tired of these cupcake players that can't stay on the field or get pushed all over it. I'm tired if these broken down vets being brought in "to make a difference". I'm tired of hearing the same presser from 2 years ago every single week since.

 

(rant over)

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I'm usually don't like to jump on the Let's Fire Pagano bandwagon but enough is enough. Just sick and tired of the whole yada this yada that excuses.

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I don't think this loss has to much to do with coaching. It has more to do with able bodies. We aren't healthy on defense at all. The only healthy db we have is Mike Adams. I'm in more of the optimism camp. The game was closer than the score states. I personally like the improvements I saw this week. The pi fouls were crap. They were all holding calls against them but pi's for us. I saw a pi call for a shove after the ball had passed by the wr. Rediculous

 

the refs didn't cost us the game. The play on the field did. 

 

The colts will get better. I just hope it's not to late. 

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Didn't challange the TY catch is my only problem with him today. We ended up scoring on that drive anyways.

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9 minutes ago, a06cc said:

Didn't challange the TY catch is my only problem with him today. We ended up scoring on that drive anyways.

If I am not mistaken those calls are from upstairs and we don't know if he got the right info in time to challenge.

But yes I did think it was a catch myself.

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1 hour ago, BOTT said:

Zimmer also has a lot more talent to work with on defense.  It wasn't that long ago that the patriots lacked talent on D and were near the bottom in defense.  I don't like Chuck, but this defense is talent deficient.

Yes it is true that we are not that talented on defense, but isn't the coaching staff supposed to develop the players?

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I'v seen a whole lot of whining these last 2 weeks . Yes I'm disappointed but in Peyton Mannings early years we also experienced a lot of heart break .

 

IMO many who post just don't know how hard it was watching the Colts from 84 on we experienced many growing pains did'nt achieve much till Jim Harbaugh became our QB  & it was a roller coaster ride that ended in Pittsburgh .

 

When Peyton became our QB he had Faulk & the EDGE  but the defense was not that great we brought in Dungy to fix it but he never really did Peyton always carried the team . 

 

Luck has carried this team with him we always have a chance to win . Before the season the Colts were not expected to do very good according to many in the media & on these boards .

 

They have so far over achieved regardless of slow starts & mistakes the team had a chance to win in both games we walk away 0-2 but IMO it could have gone either way each game with minutes left they had there chance they'v been close & IMO they can & will so better .

 

This is not my first Rodeo as a Colts Die Hard fan I'v seen many unhappy results since they arrived in Indianapolis, I believe things will get better I will not spend my time crying over spilt milk . I will continue to look for positives & not waste my energy attending pity parties .

 

The Fat Lady has yet to sing this is not over its a long season in Dec I will look at the results then & give my opinion , I'm not happy with Pagano for 1 reason after the first game he said he would not change a thing if he had it to do over that IMO was stupid . 

 

Luck had some problems & it really would have helped alot if we could of scored with that interception but regardless the Bronco defense & the Lions defense were both pretty good & still yet a win was possible .

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14 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If I am not mistaken those calls are from upstairs and we don't know if he got the right info in time to challenge.

But yes I did think it was a catch myself.

He obviously didn't lol But he didn't coach a bad game. Defense with what we had to field held up in the end. Luck can't give points way

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Just now, RockThatBlue said:

Yes it is true that we are not that talented on defense, but isn't the coaching staff supposed to develop the players?

You can't shine a turd.  There isn't a lot of talent to mold.

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2 minutes ago, a06cc said:

He obviously didn't lol But he didn't coach a bad game. Defense at the end and what we had to field held up. Luck can't give points way

That is true. They held in pretty good at first then more injuries. I think the Colts are snake bit.

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43 minutes ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

I'v seen a whole lot of whining these last 2 weeks . Yes I'm disappointed but in Peyton Mannings early years we also experienced a lot of heart break .

 

IMO many who post just don't know how hard it was watching the Colts from 84 on we experienced many growing pains did'nt achieve much till Jim Harbaugh became our QB  & it was a roller coaster ride that ended in Pittsburgh .

 

When Peyton became our QB he had Faulk & the EDGE  but the defense was not that great we brought in Dungy to fix it but he never really did Peyton always carried the team . 

 

Luck has carried this team with him we always have a chance to win . Before the season the Colts were not expected to do very good according to many in the media & on these boards .

 

They have so far over achieved regardless of slow starts & mistakes the team had a chance to win in both games we walk away 0-2 but IMO it could have gone either way each game with minutes left they had there chance they'v been close & IMO they can & will so better .

 

This is not my first Rodeo as a Colts Die Hard fan I'v seen many unhappy results since they arrived in Indianapolis, I believe things will get better I will not spend my time crying over spilt milk . I will continue to look for positives & not waste my energy attending pity parties .

 

The Fat Lady has yet to sing this is not over its a long season in Dec I will look at the results then & give my opinion , I'm not happy with Pagano for 1 reason after the first game he said he would not change a thing if he had it to do over that IMO was stupid . 

 

Luck had some problems & it really would have helped alot if we could of scored with that interception but regardless the Bronco defense & the Lions defense were both pretty good & still yet a win was possible .

I love Peyton but to be fair to Dungy, how many draft picks did we devote to building up our defense?  And the ones we did draft that were great we let walk rather than pay them.  I hope we don't continue to make the same mistakes with Luck. Our offense is fine. Ok maybe we could use a stud LT or RT but no more weapons for that side of the ball. Our main focus for the rest of Luck's career should be giving him a dominant defense and strong running game. At least they did give Peyton the latter. 

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 I consider the coaches to have done a pretty good job in the first two games with all the bodies missing. That said, 0-2 is really starting to get old. I hope somebody is able to get back by week 3 as Rivers has been hot. 

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Pagano should've thrown the challenge flag on the Hilton catch. It was clear that he caught the ball. Instead he just stands there like a deer in the headlights. He also should've had McAfee squib it when the Broncos only had one defender back there when they thought we would onside it. 2 missed opportunities. 

 

 

This game also had some of the worst officiating I've seen in a very long time. 

 

TJ Ward should be suspended for that Moncrief hit. He left the ground and hit him with his helmet, but then they'll call Pass Interference on us when our defender was within 5 yards of their receiver (our their TE). Ridiculous. 

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10 hours ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Their effort, attitude and toughness are rarely in question. Unlike a Pagano lead team. While there may have been more talent, it was not by much

lol, you've called your own judgment into question with that remark.  Please, tell me how a league best pass rush and secondary that's better than any other team's secondary, plus very good LB is "not much better" than our starting 4th string CBs corps left out to cover for minutes because we've no pass rush defensive front.  

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31 minutes ago, Ehrman.Dutton.Cook.Barnes said:

What is your reaction to Pagano saying at his presser " We go down settle for a field goal, fine".  SETTLE????? FINE????

merged your thread

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12 hours ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Zimmers Vikings defense/toughness is what I thought Pagano was going to bring 

I agree

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12 hours ago, BOTT said:

Zimmer also has a lot more talent to work with on defense.  It wasn't that long ago that the patriots lacked talent on D and were near the bottom in defense.  I don't like Chuck, but this defense is talent deficient.

 

I agree with you, but that makes the Pagano hire even more curious, or troubling, or... His record, in my opinion, has only been good when blessed with talent-rich rosters. 

 

Pagano was a bad choice to start.  No head coaching experience prior to this job.  A defensive guy period, and only moderate success along the way here.  The one statistically great year a unit of his had was the 2011 Ravens, a roster that had multiple hall of famers - Lewis and Reed at least - and that doesn't get into the rest of the talent on that defense.  And if you look at the Ravens, 2011 wasn't unlike a lot of other years they had, so how much of that one season was Chuck versus a system and incredible players?  Raider DB coach in 2005 and 2006 - they ranked 18th and dead last, 32nd.  North Carolina went 4-8 in 2007 when he was d-coordinator.  And on and on...  It's all moderate, just ok, so-so.  His record is average.  The Colts hired an average position coach.  With no head coaching experience.  At any level.  And we're all surprised his adjustment to being an NFL head coach has been bumpy at best?  I'd argue his "success" has been on the back (arm) of Luck, who has been forced to come back from deficit after deficit, scrambling to not get killed, and performing minor miracles given the lack of talent around him.  Maybe Pagano can still grow into this.  Irsay thought so, with the extension.  I'm still not seeing it.  Being something your not isn't easy, and I think Chuck is far better suited to run a defense, and truly better off running a position. 

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Mccoltfan

26 minutes ago, MSColtsFan said:

 

I agree with you, but that makes the Pagano hire even more curious, or troubling, or... His record, in my opinion, has only been good when blessed with talent-rich rosters. 

 

Pagano was a bad choice to start.  No head coaching experience prior to this job.  A defensive guy period, and only moderate success along the way here.  The one statistically great year a unit of his had was the 2011 Ravens, a roster that had multiple hall of famers - Lewis and Reed at least - and that doesn't get into the rest of the talent on that defense.  And if you look at the Ravens, 2011 wasn't unlike a lot of other years they had, so how much of that one season was Chuck versus a system and incredible players?  Raider DB coach in 2005 and 2006 - they ranked 18th and dead last, 32nd.  North Carolina went 4-8 in 2007 when he was d-coordinator.  And on and on...  It's all moderate, just ok, so-so.  His record is average.  The Colts hired an average position coach.  With no head coaching experience.  At any level.  And we're all surprised his adjustment to being an NFL head coach has been bumpy at best?  I'd argue his "success" has been on the back (arm) of Luck, who has been forced to come back from deficit after deficit, scrambling to not get killed, and performing minor miracles given the lack of talent around him.  Maybe Pagano can still grow into this.  Irsay thought so, with the extension.  I'm still not seeing it.  Being something your not isn't easy, and I think Chuck is far better suited to run a defense, and truly better off running a position. 

I agree. We brought in a guy who has never been a head coach, and a guy who has never been a gm. I swear this roster is BARELY any more talented than the one we had when he was hired! Pagano can't do much when there's just no talent there. 

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I'm usually ok with pagano and all but this year has not been the kindest for his case. First off the bad time management from the first game was poor on his part. That seemed to follow in to this game.  Maybe it's a little bit of an over reaction but did anybody else notice that when the Broncos had the ball before the 2 min warning we could have taken r last timeout with about 2:08 left. Instead we waited and let the clock run to the 2 min warning and took it after the next play after the 2 min warning when we got the 3rd and 1 stop. If he takes that TO on the other side of the 2:00 min warning we save 5 sec. I know that's not a lot but with no timeouts and needed to go the whole field that could be a difference. Just saying another poor decision I believe that's just not smart football. I believe those start to add up. Not ready to dump the guy by no means but little things like that start to add up. 

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24 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

Mccoltfan

I agree. We brought in a guy who has never been a head coach, and a guy who has never been a gm. I swear this roster is BARELY any more talented than the one we had when he was hired! Pagano can't do much when there's just no talent there. 

A 2-14 team that was in cap hades? Saying this team is barely a better team than before he came is a huge stretch.

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PAGANO got a sympathy pass last couple years,but he has to go along with GRIGSON.They have had years to fix personel problems and they havent done anything.PAGANO is not a head coach --------period.

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2 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

lol, you've called your own judgment into question with that remark.  Please, tell me how a league best pass rush and secondary that's better than any other team's secondary, plus very good LB is "not much better" than our starting 4th string CBs corps left out to cover for minutes because we've no pass rush defensive front.  

The comment was when he took over in Minnesota the talent difference was not that big between the teams on defense. Go back and read before commenting 

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31 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

The comment was when he took over in Minnesota the talent difference was not that big between the teams on defense. Go back and read before commenting 

It's still a huge difference, no matter who you're talking about.

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

A 2-14 team that was in cap hades? Saying this team is barely a better team than before he came is a huge stretch.

This wasn't a good team then, it is not a good team now. It's honestly that simple. 

And I think what I said, our gm and coach both not having any freaking experience, was just a dumb decision by irsay.

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What ever happened to building a monster line on both sides of the ball, Wasnt that Paganos Mantra when hired ?

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Pagano is a likeable guy and all, but at the end of the day the question we need to ask ourselves is - is he the one to lead us to a Superbowl? Can you see it happening? Can you see a Pagano led team be solid and well-coached enough to be a true contender?

 

I'm sorry but I don't see it. I realize we have a ton of injuries, but even without them this team still looked HORRIBLY coached. Missed tackles galore, mental mistakes, penalties, deteriorating special teams... no attention to detail whatsoever. This team is simply not a well coached team.

 

Furthermore, the decision-makers in our front office need to be changed. They had 5 years of cheap(ish) Andrew Luck to build a team around him and this team is getting worse and worse. We were feasting on horrible AFC South for years and sneaking into the playoffs only to be annihilated by the first serious hurdle. This roster is in a horrendous shape and getting worse and worse. So many busts in the draft, so many busts in free agency... With the exception of Vontae and Henry Anderson, we need upgrade(or the rookies panning out) at every single position of the defense. The right side of the O-line is pretty bad too. Dwayne Allen got massively overpaid after not being able to finish a season healthy in the last 3 years.

 

We can keep lying to ourselves about how the injuries are what's preventing this team from being great, but while Grigson is making the decisions on draft day, in FA and in trades and Pagano is coaching this team, I honestly think we are wasting Luck's prime years.

 

I've never been one of those people who hopes for losses of their favorite team so the coach would be fired and I hate seeing the Colts like that but I have to be honest and say that after every bad performance, the thing that I find silver-lining in, is the hope that with every next soulless loss we are getting closer to getting new management and head coach.

 

I really don't want to see yet another Grigson draft and yet another Pagano coached Colts team. I don't want another wasted year. This team has been set back so much in the last several years that I don't think we can recover and be true contenders for at least 2 more years. We need a massive rebuild and overhaul of the whole defense and half of the offensive line + RB.

 

The only question you need to answer is - do you trust the current management with the task of building this team back up? What have we seen to give us ANY confidence that they can do it? ANY? AT ALL?

 

To me the answer is as clear as day.

 

I also don't get the attitude "I wanted Grigson and Pagano gone after last season, but I don't want them fired right now". What's so bad about admitting a mistake? What's bad about admiting it and correcting it EARLY, rather than waiting for another wasted year or two? They either are the right people to take this team to the next level or they aren't. I haven't seen anything in the last several years to hint that they can handle the responsibility of building a championship team.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

Pagano is a likeable guy and all, but at the end of the day the question we need to ask ourselves is - is he the one to lead us to a Superbowl? Can you see it happening? Can you see a Pagano led team be solid and well-coached enough to be a true contender?

 

I'm sorry but I don't see it. I realize we have a ton of injuries, but even without them this team still looked HORRIBLY coached. Missed tackles galore, mental mistakes, penalties, deteriorating special teams... no attention to detail whatsoever. This team is simply not a well coached team.

 

Furthermore, the decision-makers in our front office need to be changed. They had 5 years of cheap(ish) Andrew Luck to build a team around him and this team is getting worse and worse. We were feasting on horrible AFC South for years and sneaking into the playoffs only to be annihilated by the first serious hurdle. This roster is in a horrendous shape and getting worse and worse. So many busts in the draft, so many busts in free agency... With the exception of Vontae and Henry Anderson, we need upgrade(or the rookies panning out) at every single position of the defense. The right side of the O-line is pretty bad too. Dwayne Allen got massively overpaid after not being able to finish a season healthy in the last 3 years.

 

We can keep lying to ourselves about how the injuries are what's preventing this team from being great, but while Grigson is making the decisions on draft day, in FA and in trades and Pagano is coaching this team, I honestly think we are wasting Luck's prime years.

 

I've never been one of those people who hopes for losses of their favorite team so the coach would be fired and I hate seeing the Colts like that but I have to be honest and say that after every bad performance, the thing that I find silver-lining in, is the hope that with every next soulless loss we are getting closer to getting new management and head coach.

 

I really don't want to see yet another Grigson draft and yet another Pagano coached Colts team. I don't want another wasted year. This team has been set back so much in the last several years that I don't think we can recover and be true contenders for at least 2 more years. We need a massive rebuild and overhaul of the whole defense and half of the offensive line + RB.

 

The only question you need to answer is - do you trust the current management with the task of building this team back up? What have we seen to give us ANY confidence that they can do it? ANY? AT ALL?

 

To me the answer is as clear as day.

 

I also don't get the attitude "I wanted Grigson and Pagano gone after last season, but I don't want them fired right now". What's so bad about admitting a mistake? What's bad about admiting it and correcting it EARLY, rather than waiting for another wasted year or two? They either are the right people to take this team to the next level or they aren't. I haven't seen anything in the last several years to hint that they can handle the responsibility of building a championship team.

Well it's very clear how you feel.  I'm one of those who don't feel that way.  I think Jim was right in keeping them together and giving them the opportunity to get back on track.  I think we have a better chance of turning it around with them then blowing it all up and completely starting over.  There is no one out there that is going to guarantee you success.  One of those ex coaches in the broadcast booth that hasn't coached in half a decade?  No thank you.  Another assistant from our team or another team looking for another HC job or first time HC job.  No thank you.  A college coach that is successful in his program and wants the new challenge of the NFL.  No thank you.  Saban or Harbargh to return and try it again.  Don't think that's going to happen soon.  Again no guarantees.  You know these owners aren't patient men. At least most of them aren't.   It looks like we had a great draft class this year. It appears we have fixed some of our problems.  Yes we still have some holes but so do many of the teams.  In fact I don't think we have a large number of major holes.  ER, RB, and a nasty linebacker that teams fear and have to account for.  That's it for me.  Jim is being patient so I am going to be.  After all he is a lot closer to this team than we are.  I think he knows football.  I think we have the key people in place that can make it happen.  I believe once we get these massive injuries behind us we are in for a great and exciting run in the playoffs.  I know I'm in the minority but that's my two cents for it's worth. 

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3 hours ago, stitches said:

I also don't get the attitude "I wanted Grigson and Pagano gone after last season, but I don't want them fired right now". What's so bad about admitting a mistake? What's bad about admiting it and correcting it EARLY, rather than waiting for another wasted year or two? They either are the right people to take this team to the next level or they aren't. I haven't seen anything in the last several years to hint that they can handle the responsibility of building a championship team.

I think the issue here is the timing.  If you fire Pagano and Grigson this early, you're kinda throwing in the towel on the season. Not only that, but who would you replace them with right now?  Maybe in the offseason, after you have another year of film to pick what coaches and GMs you like as candidates, you pull the trigger.  But the issue right now is the timing.

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