Exactly what constitutes 'Holding", and why does Indy seem to do it more than anyone else?

[Dustin]

its doubled this year from 2.6 from 1.3 last year so its been more of a problem but I think that's because officials are really cracking down. The Colts have had 19 offensive holding penalties called on them through 6 games (3 of which were declined).....2 of those came vs Jacksonville and Houston...1 a piece(Which Luck did not play in). So in the 4 games Luck has started the O Line has averaged 4.25 a game. Obviously its not all on him but he is a contributing factor, I have not gone back over each individual holding penalty and I know some of those came on run plays nor am I saying Luck is the main problem with the holding penalties...Just that he contributes to the problem a fair amount when he hangs onto the ball forever and a day http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?year=2015

Since you are looking it up, how many of those holdings (the 4.25 number) are on passing plays vs the 1.3 for Hasselbeck?

[Gavin]

Since you are looking it up, how many of those holdings (the 4.25 number) are on passing plays vs the 1.3 for Hasselbeck?

Give me a bit.That requires going back over 4 games of film

[Dustin]

its doubled this year from 2.6 from 1.3 last year so its been more of a problem but I think that's because officials are really cracking down. The Colts have had 19 offensive holding penalties called on them through 6 games (3 of which were declined).....2 of those came vs Jacksonville and Houston...1 a piece(Which Luck did not play in). So in the 4 games Luck has started the O Line has averaged 4.25 a game. Obviously its not all on him but he is a contributing factor, I have not gone back over each individual holding penalty and I know some of those came on run plays nor am I saying Luck is the main problem with the holding penalties...Just that he contributes to the problem a fair amount when he hangs onto the ball forever and a day http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?year=2015

 

 

Good point, well except that in the Jags game and Houston game the olineman were called for exactly two holding calls (Reitz and Mewhort) and both were declined.

 

i ran all the numbers and there have been 10 holding penalties on Luck's 166 pass attempts. And 1 on Hasselbeck's 76. So i will concede this point. The first point however, is still valid.

[NewEra]

They sure seem to be calling it more on the colts versus our opponents...but hey that's none of my business.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

I like how freeney would get held every single play, every single game, every single year, and it never get called. But now they're getting their act together right?

[Coffeedrinker]

i ran all the numbers and there have been 10 holding penalties on Luck's 166 pass attempts. And 1 on Hasselbeck's 76. So i will concede this point. The first point however, is still valid.

Your other point is not valid either.  You stated if Luck was part of the problem then it would not just be happening this year, when in fact the Colts had 25 holding penalties last year, so it's not a new problem.

 

I think the refs are being more picky, as explained in my thread earlier, and that is a contributing factor in the increase this year; but the fact is Luck held the ball too long last year and holding penalties went up, Luck hold's the ball too long this year and holding penalties have gone up.  In the first half of the Patriots game when Luck, for the most part, was getting the ball out quickly and decisively the Colts had one holding penalty on a running play.  In the 2nd half when he started hanging onto the ball longer and not calling any running plays the Colts were called for three holding penalties (1 run early in the third qtr) and 2 passing plays

[DougDew]

Your other point is not valid either.  You stated if Luck was part of the problem then it would not just be happening this year, when in fact the Colts had 25 holding penalties last year, so it's not a new problem.

 

I think the refs are being more picky, as explained in my thread earlier, and that is a contributing factor in the increase this year; but the fact is Luck held the ball too long last year and holding penalties went up, Luck hold's the ball too long this year and holding penalties have gone up.  In the first half of the Patriots game when Luck, for the most part, was getting the ball out quickly and decisively the Colts had one holding penalty on a running play.  In the 2nd half when he started hanging onto the ball longer and not calling any running plays the Colts were called for three holding penalties (1 run early in the third qtr) and 2 passing plays

IMO, any comparison between the Colts offense this year and previous years is almost invalid because previous years Reggie Wayne got open, when healthy, and those longish passes on 3rd downs worked more often.  When Reg went down with the knee, the O struggled and looked much like it does now.  When Reg hurt his elbow, the O struggled and looks much like it does now.  Its a tale of two O's, with a healthy Reggie Wayne being the difference.

 

I think defenses have figured that out, and just flat out pass rush when Luck/Pep/Pags whoever starts reverting back to those tendencies. 

 

The coaching staff needs to train Luck to keep the short stuff going.  That will alt least keep the pass rush honest and put less pressure on the Oline.  Not to mention, a LB or S might not be able to rush as vigorously if he has to keep an eye for a short route over the middle or an RB.  I think defenders ignore our RB in the flat, because Luck has established a pattern of doing so himself.

 

But obviously, the Oline itself continues to be a work in progress.

[Superman]

It's not just Colts games, although we lead the league in offensive holding penalties so far. They're calling holding (and penalties in general) more this season than they ever have. Call me a homer, but I think half of the holding calls against us have been bogus.

[Dustin]

Your other point is not valid either.  You stated if Luck was part of the problem then it would not just be happening this year, when in fact the Colts had 25 holding penalties last year, so it's not a new problem.

 

And only 9 and 13 in 2012 and 2013, both bottom 3 in their respective years. 

[NewColtsFan]

Of the Colts holding penalties this year,  I'd also be curious as to how many came on Frank Gore runs.      Successful Frank Gore runs.    Say +5 or more?

 

Collinsworth thought Gore might've lost roughly 100 yards already this year due to penalties........      I was glad CC noted that.

[theanarchist]

It's not just Colts games, although we lead the league in offensive holding penalties so far. They're calling holding (and penalties in general) more this season than they ever have. Call me a homer, but I think half of the holding calls against us have been bogus.

All valid points and I agree with your last statement. In general, the NFL has a problem on its hands with officiating. I'm not the only fan that's frustrated. As Marv Levy once said, they r all a bunch of over officious jerks.

[PeterBowman]

It's not just Colts games, although we lead the league in offensive holding penalties so far. They're calling holding (and penalties in general) more this season than they ever have. Call me a homer, but I think half of the holding calls against us have been bogus.

they have....it's like they're just looking to call holding half the time....but completely ingore the other team and their holding.....cough cough NE

[RockThatBlue]

He clearly contributes to the problem in his own way

No he doesn't.

[GoColts00]

I would like to know why it's so important now, but it wasn't important 10 years ago when Dwight Freeney was held almost every single snap.

[Gavin]

No he doesn't.

Good counter, Im impressed

[Superman]

Of the Colts holding penalties this year,  I'd also be curious as to how many came on Frank Gore runs.      Successful Frank Gore runs.    Say +5 or more?

 

Collinsworth thought Gore might've lost roughly 100 yards already this year due to penalties........      I was glad CC noted that.

 

Gotta study those carefully, because who knows how many of those Gore runs were successful in part due to a hold... But as I've said, I think most of the holds have been ticky-tack anyways. 

 

I just wish we'd stop going away from the run. 

[jvan1973]

Also, when your team gets caught for holding a lot, refs may be looking harder for it on your team. As I mentioned in another thread, Langford was in a sleeper hold when Blount scored his receiving TD but the pats are more disciplined no matter how many rookies or backups they have in

Your post contradicts itself. He wouldn't have been in a sleeper hold if the olineman was disciplined

[jvan1973]

Umm if the Pat defender fell and he went with him isn't that a clear sign he was holding him? Otherwise why do he fall lol.

that said any time I see a flag in the backfield I go "holding Offense" no matter what team it is and they are calling it more. The pats get it called less because Brady gets rid of it so fast.

So a pancake is holding now?

[Gavin]

So a pancake is holding now?

Depends on the week and the refs, An argument can be made 1 or 2 of Thorntons 3 holding penalties was a pancake block or a knockdown

[Clem-Dog]

Sure Luck is responsible for holding the ball too long but he is nowhere near as bad as Russell Wilson and Seattle hardly gets flagged for it. Not too mention RW reverses the field on almost every scramble yet the Hawks are hardly ever called for holding despite fielding a very inexperienced o-line.

Some of these calls are bogus, just like defensive holding calls, or automatic 1st downs, that we always seem to collect well in excess of the competition.

These calls are totally arbitrary, but should, in theory, benefit the home team. Unfortunately the refs are not afraid to give opposing teams this benefit because it appears they think Indy fans are ignorant.

I think officials should be identified as much as anyone on the field because their anonymity allows them to cheat, and cheat they do without remorse. Vegas might as well train them.

[bababooey]

Your post contradicts itself. He wouldn't have been in a sleeper hold if the olineman was disciplined

How so? The colts get called for more bc they commit more. The pats commit few so when it happens it can be missed like the play I just mentioned...

[DougDew]

Sure Luck is responsible for holding the ball too long but he is nowhere near as bad as Russell Wilson and Seattle hardly gets flagged for it. Not too mention RW reverses the field on almost every scramble yet the Hawks are hardly ever called for holding despite fielding a very inexperienced o-line.

Some of these calls are bogus, just like defensive holding calls, or automatic 1st downs, that we always seem to collect well in excess of the competition.

These calls are totally arbitrary, but should, in theory, benefit the home team. Unfortunately the refs are not afraid to give opposing teams this benefit because it appears they think Indy fans are ignorant.

I think officials should be identified as much as anyone on the field because their anonymity allows them to cheat, and cheat they do without remorse. Vegas might as well train them.

Its payback for the Colts embarrasing the officials with deflatgate.

[DougDew]

To answer the question "what constitutes holding" .  I think the officials focus on the jersy being tugged, as a manner of restraining the defender.  An arm-bar across his chest is hardly ever called holding.    

 

Langford was severely arm-barred during the Blount pass recetion TD, but i don't think the jersey was being pulled. 

 

Freeney was constantly arm-barred is whole career and hardly ever drew as many holding calls as what you would commonly think.

 

One play in the Pats game , our o lineman had a hold of a defender, and the defender flopped like he was being tugged and pulled down.  He drew a holding call by doing the wimpy Reggie Miller flop.....just like a Pat would.

[jayt327]

Lol at thinking Luck is the problem. Brady usually has infinite time and you don't see the pats getting called for holding nearly as much.

[DougDew]

Lol at thinking Luck is the problem. Brady usually has infinite time and you don't see the pats getting called for holding nearly as much.

But there is a different psychology involved.  Brady usually releases the ball quickly, making any pass rush attempt or blitz relatively futile.  The Colts usually flounder when excessive pressure is applied. Brady's situation discourages a pass rush, so on the occaisons he holds the ball longer, the rush is slower.  Luck's situation encourages it.  Any drop-back is met is with vigor.

 

Luck is a very good QB.  If the O was based upon a shorter passing game like Brady's, the pass rush would slow down.  Luck is not the problem.  The problem is the way that he has been taught to play the game the past 4 years.

[Jaric]

It's because the offensive line is getting beat more often.  

[Superman]

Lol at thinking Luck is the problem. Brady usually has infinite time and you don't see the pats getting called for holding nearly as much.

 

Brady gets rid of the ball faster than any QB in the league. I don't know where people get this "infinite time" idea from. 

[Bubbz]

The Colts run and pass blocking was maybe the worst I have seen in a long time on Sunday night. Literally the Oline was putting wrestling moves on our players or just out right tackling them. Not sure if the talent is that bad or perhaps the coaches that are teaching technique.

nfl coaches dont teach linemen how to block

[Bubbz]

Depends on the week and the refs, An argument can be made 1 or 2 of Thorntons 3 holding penalties was a pancake block or a knockdown

yeah this is a gray area. I was always taught pancake is okay as long as you flail your arms out to the sides and dont use them

[Lawrence Owen]

It's not just Colts games, although we lead the league in offensive holding penalties so far. They're calling holding (and penalties in general) more this season than they ever have. Call me a homer, but I think half of the holding calls against us have been bogus.

Especially considering Many of those calls were in the run game, and away from the RB.  No reason to hold when you know  the play does not go though you.

[OLD FAN MAN]

The Colts run and pass blocking was maybe the worst I have seen in a long time on Sunday night. Literally the Oline was putting wrestling moves on our players or just out right tackling them. Not sure if the talent is that bad or perhaps the coaches that are teaching technique.

not sure if any of our o-line could start for another team. our o-line is below average, bad o-lines hold because they are beat. grigs in 4 years has failed to build an o-line

[Superman]

Especially considering Many of those calls were in the run game, and away from the RB.  No reason to hold when you know  the play does not go though you.

 

We have cutbacks in a lot of our run plays, and a lot of backside seal blocks. Sometimes the schemes are too complicated, IMO. 

[JimJaime]

Lol at thinking Luck is the problem. Brady usually has infinite time and you don't see the pats getting called for holding nearly as much.

Shabanagans!! Brady gets rid of the ball MOST Of the time in 3 seconds.. That said I bet more holds are called on running plays.

[jvan1973]

not sure if any of our o-line could start for another team. our o-line is below average, bad o-lines hold because they are beat. grigs in 4 years has failed to build an o-line

You must not watch many chargers games

[Lawrence Owen]

We have cutbacks in a lot of our run plays, and a lot of backside seal blocks. Sometimes the schemes are too complicated, IMO. 

Leave it to Superman to point out my flawed comment

It's alright though, Making me think of things I have not yet is good for understanding the dilemma as a whole.

 

Seriously though, Wouldn't just saying "The runner is going straight through the 3 gap, just shove them out of your way WITHOUT Grabbing them" be easier than "run to off tackle, then cut back to the left, sweep wide, right guard pulls for lead block" for our guys to execute without screwing up?

 

I mean, we are supposed to be a 'power run' team right?

[ColtStronger]

I understand that the NFL has changed tremendously since then, but I can remember in the DF & RM tag team days.  One or the other would be held (badly) a handful (maybe even 2 handfuls) plays a game. However, most of the time they were never called.  I'm talking the spin move on the outside, getting by the T, and they would grab from chest and back, and knock them off track enough so the QB wouldn't eat the turf.  It was pretty ridiculous, that I watched the OL more than I watched the rest of the team, because the Colts got screwed so much.  How convenient how rules change!  If they called it consistently the same from different eras teams would've either had to do screen passes or only run the football.

[Happy2BeHere]

I won't necessarily take time to elaborate on "holding"...however Indy is the 3rd most penalized team in the league according to this new article out today from Fox Sports.

 

"Penalties a persistent problem for Indianapolis" http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2015/10/22/penalties-persistent-problem-for-indianapolis.html?intcmp=hphz20

 

"Chuck Pagano's team has been called for the third-most penalties in the NFL.

 

After being called for 11 penalties for 103 yards in last week's loss to the New England Patriots, Indianapolis head coach Chuck Pagano continues to harp on the damage the self-inflicted mistakes are causing the team.

 

"The penalties, we have to get it corrected," Pagano said, per ESPN. "It's hard to overcome first-and-15. We had false starts, first-and-20. Have a nice run play, a positive play called back because of a hold. What happens is guys strain and you got difficult matchups at times. You have to stick with your fundamentals and technique. Don't ever get away from your fundamentals and technique."

Through six games, the Colts have called for 49 penalties, third-most in the NFL. Left tackle Anthony Castonzo, who signed a reported four-year contract, $43.6 million contract extension in September, leads the team with six penalties.

 

Indianapolis will look to cut down on the mistakes Sunday against the New Orleans Saints."

 

 

Quite surprising that COSTANZO is the most penalized of all of our linemen at that.

[Superman]

Leave it to Superman to point out my flawed comment

It's alright though, Making me think of things I have not yet is good for understanding the dilemma as a whole.

 

Seriously though, Wouldn't just saying "The runner is going straight through the 3 gap, just shove them out of your way WITHOUT Grabbing them" be easier than "run to off tackle, then cut back to the left, sweep wide, right guard pulls for lead block" for our guys to execute without screwing up?

 

I mean, we are supposed to be a 'power run' team right?

 

Don't mean to be a nitpicker...

 

As for pulling guards, it's basically adding a lead blocker without needing a FB. The other stuff helps with misdirection and whatnot. ILBs and safeties read plays at the snap based on what linemen do. Sealing the backside with a pull blocker can cause defenders to abandon run lanes and open up holes, and then you can get other blockers to the second level. That's when 10+ yard carries happen.

 

I have no problem with the strategies, but the degree of difficulty can be higher. And when one guy misses his block or gets beat, the play is doomed. Either it gets shut down right away, or that guy has to hold to keep the play from getting shut down, and that's just as bad, maybe worse. There have been times this season where I'm baffled at how complicated we've made simple off-tackle runs.

[Coltsman1788]

I miss the days of Dungy when the Colts were consistently one of the least penalized teams in the league.  We seem to a have lost a lot of our discipline and technique under Pagano & his staff...particularly on offense. 

[TrueColt!]

If Luck is the blame with the holding penalties, explain all the ones we had when he was out. Now what? People just wanna blame Luck for everything. Know nothing about football. That makes 0 sense. Big ben, Rus Wilson, rodgers, all hold the ball for long periods of time and they all scramble. They oline don't get the calls like ours. How about that? Know how many qbs scramble and held the ball thru history? That's crazy to say it's Luck fault. How about the defensive holding we keep getting called for bcuz overrated vontae davis keep getting beat every week? That's Luck fault too? When guys on the field get beat, they hold. Has nothing to do with Luck, it's been around since b4 he was born...ridiculous. He wasn't even here for every game, crazy.