Exactly what constitutes 'Holding", and why does Indy seem to do it more than anyone else?

[Lawrence Owen]

Seriously, this is getting beyond annoying and has cut right into game breakers.

 

Most teams, you see an offensive lineman called for holding LESS than false starts,. But  Indy get's called for it 4-6 times/game.  It's unreal, to the point where if you add up the penalty yardage over a single game, you have enough for an entire drive! Are we really so bad that we have to hold at least once a drive? Or is Indy just getting picked on?

 

Especially on run plays, where holding seems much less important compared to trying to keep someone from running free on your offensive leader.  We hold more on run than pass,...and a 6-12 yard Gore run gets turned into a 10 yard loss.  And some of those holds are even AWAY from the plays design!

 

 

[Mr.Debonair]

Madden use to say you could call holding on every play

[Cynjin]

Penalties tend to occur on undisciplined teams. The offensive side of the Colts is undisaplined. The first year of this current team they were one of the least penalized teams, now?

[DougDew]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it comes back to Luck.  If defenses know that they can force him into bad decisions or poor throws by applying pressure, they will be more aggressive until he shows that he can complete the 20 yard outs and crossing passes he's trying.

 

That aggression puts more presure on the Olineman. 

[bababooey]

Also, when your team gets caught for holding a lot, refs may be looking harder for it on your team. As I mentioned in another thread, Langford was in a sleeper hold when Blount scored his receiving TD but the pats are more disciplined no matter how many rookies or backups they have in

[UKColt13]

From what I understand, in leman's terms it means that if the Olineman is beat then he cant continue to engage. Holding a defensive player's jersey, arm, leg, helmet to give the QB more time will (should) get flagged every time.

 

It comes down to poor coaching and technique for me. 20 pushups on the sideline for every hold should do it.

[PeterBowman]

if it's blatant holding then I"d expect it to be called...but a lot of the calls against them this year have been iffy at best.  That tells me the refs are looking for it.

[BlueShoe]

The Colts are not the only team getting called for holding more than usual. We are just noticing it more because it's not something we are used to.

 

NFL Referees have broken several records this year with the amount of penalty's called. 

 

We are unfortunate because it has happened to us at awful times and negated several big plays, often killing drives. 

[Cynjin]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it comes back to Luck.  If defenses know that they can force him into bad decisions or poor throws by applying pressure, they will be more aggressive until he shows that he can complete the 20 yard outs and crossing passes he's trying.

 

That aggression puts more presure on the Olineman.

You're saying Luck is to blame for the Oline holding?

[jaybird95]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it comes back to Luck.  If defenses know that they can force him into bad decisions or poor throws by applying pressure, they will be more aggressive until he shows that he can complete the 20 yard outs and crossing passes he's trying.

 

That aggression puts more presure on the Olineman. 

 

Luck causes holding. Alright.

[Gavin]

You're saying Luck is to blame for the Oline holding?

He clearly contributes to the problem in his own way

[Gavin]

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/useofhands

 

 

Exact definitions of holding penalty

[BleedBlu8792]

if it's blatant holding then I"d expect it to be called...but a lot of the calls against them this year have been iffy at best.  That tells me the refs are looking for it.

 

Agreed... Again in this past game, I can't remember if it was on Holmes or Castonzo, the defender literally fell down and our OL assisted with him falling, however the Colts were called for holding. Thornton got burned on that twice against Tennessee. I'm all for it being called fairly, but New England got by with a couple blatant holds. Call it both ways or don't call it all.

[A8bil]

When a player starts pulling with his hands rather than pushing, it's holding.  Pretty simple in theory, hard to judge in practice.

[Cynjin]

He clearly contributes to the problem in his own way

So you are also saying, at least to some extent, Luck is to blame for the Colts Oline holding?

If that is your assertion, I disagree.

[-JJ-]

So you are also saying, at least to some extent, Luck is to blame for the Colts Oline holding?

If that is your assertion, I disagree.

I think he is saying if the QB holds the ball to long and a DLman is clearly coming thru they will hold to protect the QB from being hit which could result in injury.

Matt Light actually tripped a guy because he was going so fast into Brady.   Those are holding types representing protecting the QB.

 

Then there are those holds that are blatant where the RB would not have gotten the yards save the hold.

 

Every thing else in between is mostly discipline. Like there was no reason to hold because it never affected the play.

 

It is true there is more hold not called than called- ie there's holding almost every play. It's the degree and random- the refs have to call it enough to keep players honest.

[Gavin]

So you are also saying, at least to some extent, Luck is to blame for the Colts Oline holding?

If that is your assertion, I disagree.

You can disagree of course but you would be wrong. With Luck holding onto the ball forever and a day as often as he does (which he reverted back to in the second half especially Sunday....Its who he is and its not likely to change consistently....Though receivers that have  a hard time separating from man coverage contributes big time) the O Line is  forced to hold onto their blocks longer which increases the time on the play for a mental lapse, Is he the primary culprit? Of course not, Coaches clearly don't spend time making the O Line practice fundamentals...But Luck plays a huge part in it because those O Lineman know he hangs onto the ball a lot, They know they have to hold blocks longer

 

On run plays of course he not to blame but to often those have been ticky-tack calls anyway

[amfootball]

The Colts run and pass blocking was maybe the worst I have seen in a long time on Sunday night. Literally the Oline was putting wrestling moves on our players or just out right tackling them. Not sure if the talent is that bad or perhaps the coaches that are teaching technique.

[2006Coltsbestever]

The Colts run and pass blocking was maybe the worst I have seen in a long time on Sunday night. Literally the Oline was putting wrestling moves on our players or just out right tackling them. Not sure if the talent is that bad or perhaps the coaches that are teaching technique.

Our O.Line just isn't that good. If Andrew had a line he would be up there with Brady and Rodgers as far as winning. We still generally win 11 or 12 games anyway but Grigson needs to address the O.Line in next seasons draft.

[Coffeedrinker]

So you are also saying, at least to some extent, Luck is to blame for the Colts Oline holding?

If that is your assertion, I disagree.

he's not 100% wrong.  And not that Luck is partially to blame for all holding calls but here is a situation that has happened a few times this year that shows the holding is, at times, because of Luck.

 

Luck drops back for a pass, holds the ball too long, then double clutches it, now after 2.5 seconds the pocket starts to collapse and he scrambles to right or left, the defender turns to chase, the olineman's hands follow the defender before he has time to react, refs call the hold.  that penalty is on long for holding the ball too long which results in the pocket collapsing which forces him to scramble which makes the defender turn.

 

It used to be, when the defender turned, the refs allowed the olineman time to react to the defender turning and letting go.  But this year (and I've mentioned this in other threads) the refs are not giving the olineman time to react.

[imacoltfan]

I also think that if you throw the ball 26 times in a row as we did in the second half, defenders pin their ears, and admittedly, from Pagano we were in hurry up mode and changed the game plan from short to long throws, they all play a part in increasing the number of holding penalties.  It's not just as simple as Luck holding on to the ball too long. 

[Ja'Crispy]

The saying "there's holding on every play" is largely true. Some teams just know how to get away with it. You want to keep your hands inside the shoulders, hold around the chest area. Once those hands get outside, the refs are likely to call it. You don't want to be grabbing at a guy because he beats you, which seems to be the case for us. Our guys get caught grabbing at the shoulders.

[IndyD4U]

Yup, us and Chicago are tied for first in the NFL with 16 holding penalties so far this year.

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?year=2015

[ThatOneColtFan]

You guys heard it here first!

Luck is the reason for the holding calls!

[2006Coltsbestever]

You guys heard it here first!

Luck is the reason for the holding calls!

I cant figure out why we just don't run a hurry up Offense for a lot of the game. Just get rid of the ball quickly. We have TY, Dorsett, Moncrief, etc.. We have the players to do this.

[Dustin]

You can disagree of course but you would be wrong. With Luck holding onto the ball forever and a day as often as he does (which he reverted back to in the second half especially Sunday....Its who he is and its not likely to change consistently....Though receivers that have a hard time separating from man coverage contributes big time) the O Line is forced to hold onto their blocks longer which increases the time on the play for a mental lapse, Is he the primary culprit? Of course not, Coaches clearly don't spend time making the O Line practice fundamentals...But Luck plays a huge part in it because those O Lineman know he hangs onto the ball a lot, They know they have to hold blocks longer

On run plays of course he not to blame but to often those have been ticky-tack calls anyway

There would be merit to this if it had been a common problem the last few years. But it hasn't and was still a problem with Hasselbeck.

[Cynjin]

Delete

[Cynjin]

I think he is saying if the QB holds the ball to long and a DLman is clearly coming thru they will hold to protect the QB from being hit which could result in injury.

Matt Light actually tripped a guy because he was going so fast into Brady.   Those are holding types representing protecting the QB.

 

Then there are those holds that are blatant where the RB would not have gotten the yards save the hold.

 

Every thing else in between is mostly discipline. Like there was no reason to hold because it never affected the play.

 

It is true there is more hold not called than called- ie there's holding almost every play. It's the degree and random- the refs have to call it enough to keep players honest.

  

You can disagree of course but you would be wrong. With Luck holding onto the ball forever and a day as often as he does (which he reverted back to in the second half especially Sunday....Its who he is and its not likely to change consistently....Though receivers that have  a hard time separating from man coverage contributes big time) the O Line is  forced to hold onto their blocks longer which increases the time on the play for a mental lapse, Is he the primary culprit? Of course not, Coaches clearly don't spend time making the O Line practice fundamentals...But Luck plays a huge part in it because those O Lineman know he hangs onto the ball a lot, They know they have to hold blocks longer

 

On run plays of course he not to blame but to often those have been ticky-tack calls anyway

  

he's not 100% wrong.  And not that Luck is partially to blame for all holding calls but here is a situation that has happened a few times this year that shows the holding is, at times, because of Luck.

 

Luck drops back for a pass, holds the ball too long, then double clutches it, now after 2.5 seconds the pocket starts to collapse and he scrambles to right or left, the defender turns to chase, the olineman's hands follow the defender before he has time to react, refs call the hold.  that penalty is on long for holding the ball too long which results in the pocket collapsing which forces him to scramble which makes the defender turn.

 

It used to be, when the defender turned, the refs allowed the olineman time to react to the defender turning and letting go.  But this year (and I've mentioned this in other threads) the refs are not giving the olineman time to react.

Really? How would you explain the amount of holding calls on three step drops, or when there is a hand off, or when Matt was at Qb. Maybe MH was holding onto the ball too long also. Will you blame the receivers, at least somewhat, for the Oline holding because they couldn't get open?

Here is something else to consider, why during Luck's rookie year when he was holding onto the ball longer due to Arian's offense were there fewer holding calls on the Oline?

[DougDew]

When the O is in panic mode, (the O defining it as 3rd and 5) like it was the second half of the Pats game and the entire Bills and Jets games, there has been a pattern whereby Luck tries to get big chunks of yardage and must take a deep drop to do it.  Yes, the dlineman can play the deep drop and charge full-focused on getting to the spot where Luck will be dropping back to.

 

They don't have to worry about defending a screen to a RB or WR, or a TE RB to the flat, or a slant, or two receivers on a short crossing, ...or even a RB draw play.

 

Also in those panic mode instances, the Oline faces more defenders rushing, six sometimes,so the Oline gets pressured more. 

 

It all adds up to more holding calls.  I also blame Pep, or whoever it is that gets the O into panic mode way too early.

 

I'm sure the Oline's technique can use improvement too. 

[Coffeedrinker]

There would be merit to this if it had been a common problem the last few years. But it hasn't and was still a problem with Hasselbeck.

Good point, well except that in the Jags game and Houston game the olineman were called for exactly two holding calls (Reitz and Mewhort) and both were declined.

[DougDew]

    

Really? How would you explain the amount of holding calls on three step drops, or when there is a hand off, or when Matt was at Qb. Maybe MH was holding onto the ball too long also. Will you blame the receivers, at least somewhat, for the Oline holding because they couldn't get open?

Here is something else to consider, why during Luck's rookie year when he was holding onto the ball longer due to Arian's offense were there fewer holding calls on the Oline?

Perhaps its coaching, but to point to Luck's rookie year is to suggest that this Oline is worse than the Satele, McGlynn, and Justice Oline.  I think I'd make a different point. 

 

And Arians ran that offense with success.  I also tend to remember D. Avery running shorter routs and getting open, as did Reggie when he was healthy.

[Coffeedrinker]

    

Really? How would you explain the amount of holding calls on three step drops, or when there is a hand off, or when Matt was at Qb. Maybe MH was holding onto the ball too long also. Will you blame the receivers, at least somewhat, for the Oline holding because they couldn't get open?

Here is something else to consider, why during Luck's rookie year when he was holding onto the ball longer due to Arian's offense were there fewer holding calls on the Oline?

Well, there weren't as many holding calls with MH as QB (only two on the olineman), I don't recall any holding calls on three step drops, when there is a hand-off then obviously Luck does not have an effect on that (which is why it was stated he doesn't have a part in 100% of the holding calls).

 

Also, it would be interesting to look at the numbers but I doubt if Luck held the ball longer as a rookie as he does now.  Him double clutching the ball has been a problem since he came into the league.  And he's been getting progressively worse at it each year, rather than better,

 

The Colts had 25 holding penalties last year, so it's not like it's a new issue for this year only.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it comes back to Luck.  If defenses know that they can force him into bad decisions or poor throws by applying pressure, they will be more aggressive until he shows that he can complete the 20 yard outs and crossing passes he's trying.

 

That aggression puts more presure on the Olineman. 

 

Eh, that doesn't really apply in the run game, where the majority of the holding calls against the Colts have occurred. It's hands down the most frustrating thing about this team right now. Absolute drive killers.

[aaron11]

While we are at it, what's a catch

[Gavin]

There would be merit to this if it had been a common problem the last few years. But it hasn't and was still a problem with Hasselbeck.

its doubled this year from 2.6 from 1.3 last year so its been more of a problem but I think that's because officials are really cracking down. The Colts have had 19 offensive holding penalties called on them through 6 games (3 of which were declined).....2 of those came vs Jacksonville and Houston...1 a piece(Which Luck did not play in). So in the 4 games Luck has started the O Line has averaged 4.25 a game. Obviously its not all on him but he is a contributing factor, I have not gone back over each individual holding penalty and I know some of those came on run plays nor am I saying Luck is the main problem with the holding penalties...Just that he contributes to the problem a fair amount when he hangs onto the ball forever and a day http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?year=2015

[GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE]

If they were really looking for holding they would've called blounts td run back. .... Langford got body slammed but hey. ....... games over now

[JimJaime]

Agreed... Again in this past game, I can't remember if it was on Holmes or Castonzo, the defender literally fell down and our OL assisted with him falling, however the Colts were called for holding. Thornton got burned on that twice against Tennessee. I'm all for it being called fairly, but New England got by with a couple blatant holds. Call it both ways or don't call it all.

Umm if the Pat defender fell and he went with him isn't that a clear sign he was holding him? Otherwise why do he fall lol.

that said any time I see a flag in the backfield I go "holding Offense" no matter what team it is and they are calling it more. The pats get it called less because Brady gets rid of it so fast.

[JimJaime]

Agreed... Again in this past game, I can't remember if it was on Holmes or Castonzo, the defender literally fell down and our OL assisted with him falling, however the Colts were called for holding. Thornton got burned on that twice against Tennessee. I'm all for it being called fairly, but New England got by with a couple blatant holds. Call it both ways or don't call it all.

Umm if the Pat defender fell and he went with him isn't that a clear sign he was holding him? Otherwise why do he fall lol.

that said any time I see a flag in the backfield I go "holding Offense" no matter what team it is and they are calling it more. The pats get it called less because Brady gets rid of it so fast.

[BleedBlu8792]

Umm if the Pat defender fell and he went with him isn't that a clear sign he was holding him? Otherwise why do he fall lol.

that said any time I see a flag in the backfield I go "holding Offense" no matter what team it is and they are calling it more. The pats get it called less because Brady gets rid of it so fast.

DL player lost balance and it's called a pancake block...

[Dustin]

Good point, well except that in the Jags game and Houston game the olineman were called for exactly two holding calls (Reitz and Mewhort) and both were declined.

You're correct. I was confusing the Titans game (where Thornton had like 4 holdings) with the Jax games.