The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

No, I was quoting the correct one.  By your rationale, Grigson made a wise decision in trading that first round to Cleveland or Trent was a good trade.  He was the leadership and we, as fans, should have supported it.

 

Also, it was wise to get Todd Herremans instead of other available O-linemen that were available, such as Vasquez.

 

Granted, Grigson has made some good calls (Gore, Vontae, for example) but some have seemed stubborn and irresponsible, such as the Richardson trade.    

I have no rationale about personnel moves.  I was just wondering why the lack of success this year has brought out such personally hateful comments towards the three individuals who run the club.  In some ways, its been more interesting and fun this year.  Next year might be another step forward.

 

I forgot its New Years Eve.  Have one for me. 

[GwinnettColt]

Just now, DougDew said:

I have no rationale about personnel moves.  I was just wondering why the lack of success this year has brought out such personally hateful comments towards the three individuals who run the club.  In some ways, its been more interesting and fun this year.  Next year might be another step forward.

 

I forgot its New Years Eve.  Have one for me. 

 

It may be hatred for some but not for me.  As a fan, it's frustrating when they trot out a below average line year after year with Andrew Luck at the wheel.  I think the coaching staff and the GM are mediocre at this point, but I feel that Chuck is the fall guy as Grigson got free agents and determined draft picks such as Dorsett when we had more important needs that weren't addressed in the draft.  

[peytonmanning18]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I have no rationale about personnel moves.  I was just wondering why the lack of success this year has brought out such personally hateful comments towards the three individuals who run the club.  In some ways, its been more interesting and fun this year.  Next year might be another step forward.

 

I forgot its New Years Eve.  Have one for me. 

 

Can you please give examples of personal hateful comments towards them?  Everything that has been said seems to be attacking their ability to do their jobs.  

[RockThatBlue]

I'll be very disappointed if Pagano is gone but Grigson isn't fired. They both need to hit the road ASAP.

[SteelDragon]

I think some of the posters here take it too personal.  We're not rejecting you (and your affinity for Grigs/Pags), we're simply evaluating their body of work. It's what fans do when staring down the barrel of a disappointing and long off season.  It doesn't make us any less of fans. Put on your big boy panties

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, SteelDragon said:

I think some of the posters here take it too personal.  We're not rejecting you (and your affinity for Grigs/Pags), we're simply evaluating their body of work. It's what fans do when staring down the barrel of a disappointing and long off season.  It doesn't make us any less of fans. Put on your big boy panties

Are you saying that I feel rejected and have an affinity for Grigs/Pags?  I'm confused.

 

 Frankly, I'm surprised by the responses to this thread.  I think I must have missed something.

 

[Jackie Daytona]

11 minutes ago, SteelDragon said:

I think some of the posters here take it too personal.  We're not rejecting you (and your affinity for Grigs/Pags), we're simply evaluating their body of work. It's what fans do when staring down the barrel of a disappointing and long off season.  It doesn't make us any less of fans. Put on your big boy panties

Some definitely take it too personal.....  Off topic, love the tag Steel Dragon......just watched that movie again earlier today!

[DougDew]

33 minutes ago, peytonmanning18 said:

 

Can you please give examples of personal hateful comments towards them?  Everything that has been said seems to be attacking their ability to do their jobs.  

I see a lot of * in descriptions of them.  Just wondering why their failures effect people so strongly.  Watching the manifestations of them doing their jobs is just a way to spend a Sunday afternoon.  It beats bowling.

[ColtsSouljah]

This can only end well.

 

[ColtRider]

Problems between the GM, HC, and Owner that involves no particular order or colliding sequence can only be solved by one person IMO. So, this falls at the footsteps of Jim Irsay. And Jim Irsay only. Several solutions are at his disposal with these type of queries. 

 

Just hope & pray he makes the correct call whatever the problems are. I will say this. If there's a HC change, he'd better do his homework. For if everyone thought this season was a disaster, imagine making the wrong choices again (his fault or not) after the next 4 years? 

[SteelDragon]

I, too, feel sorry for Pagano. Like Kravitz said,  he never really had a chance here. I would love to see him take over DC position when the new HC assumes duty. 

It's kind of hard to imagine any HC being in a successful position with Big Brother Grigson barking out orders. 

Kravitz is pretty good at stirring the pot at opportune times. Dude has some kahunnas. 

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, ColtsSouljah said:

This can only end well.

 

Yeah, this is really weird.  I basically start a thread to get people to put the season in perspective and help them realize that we are just outsiders judging insiders and there is no real reason to get so upset about something the insiders did that we don't agree with.  Nobody on the forum knows anything about what the insiders have to deal with, so how can they get so upset over the decisions? 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is really nothing argumentative about this thread.

 

 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

43 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

 

It was an example.  You're right.....Grigson is the greatest GM in the NFL and has made very wise decisions concerning the offensive line personnel during Luck's tenure here.    

 

Lame?  Now that hurt my feelings.   Ok, I'm over it.  

 

 

 

You may hand pick any negative moves that Grigson has made and completely disregard anything positive. Par for the coarse.

[DougDew]

Hmmm...I'm thinking that people must be having arguments with other people from other threads about something else and its carried over to this one.

 

 

[ColtsSouljah]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, this is really weird.  I basically start a thread to get people to put the season in perspective and help them realize that we are just outsiders judging insiders and there is no real reason to get so upset about something the insiders did that we don't agree with.  Nobody on the forum knows anything about what the insiders have to deal with, so how can they get so upset over the decisions? 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is really nothing argumentative about this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

This board is.... very argumentative about pretty much all things football.

[Carlos Danger]

I really like Pagano... Stand up guy, for sure. I agree with most here that his in-game coaching is suspect, but personally, he's as good a dude as you'll find in the whole league. I wish things were different. He might just not have the chops to coach us to a championship.

 

I have a more fluid opinion of Grigson. He seems like he might be a bit of a jerk, but I can't really make that judgement. I really wish he were better at judging O-Line talent... I sort of feel like, if he can't get along with Chuck, who can he work with? ( as far as coaches are concerned) 

 

I really have no issues with either on a personal level, but we should be further along at this point in the reload. 

 

 

 

[Yoshinator]

41 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, this is really weird.  I basically start a thread to get people to put the season in perspective and help them realize that we are just outsiders judging insiders and there is no real reason to get so upset about something the insiders did that we don't agree with.  Nobody on the forum knows anything about what the insiders have to deal with, so how can they get so upset over the decisions? 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is really nothing argumentative about this thread.

 

I think it's about the control (or the lack of control) that we fans have over this team. A lot of us would of fixed the O-Line better. A lot of us would have drafted different. I believe a few of us would have made this team better, and there's a lot of us who wouldn't of. The control is what upsets us and sets our emotions off when it comes to sports. 6 years ago, I lost almost $20,000 in one night on fulltilt poker when I went on a really bad streak. I was on tilt and kept playing and it took me 6 months to get that money back. It still bugged me less than this year of watching the Colts though, because I 100% controlled what I was doing and learned from it. I can learn from football, free agency, and the draft all the time, but I can't apply it to the real Colts team because I'm not in charge. Neither is anyone else here. We have all this knowledge and can't apply it and it's frustrating to see us struggle when people like us could fix these issues and it's out of our hands.

Hope this helps.

 

Quote

 

 

 

[Derakynn]

Essentially, the answer is emotional investment. Obviously everyone has a different level of it, and from what I gather, you prefer to take a more logical approach to this. But for some people, that isn't quite the case. Usually, a Colts loss will ruin my mood for ~1-3 games. Although that reaction has been numbed somewhat after I finally accepted that the team was garb. But emotions are not necessarily logical. 

[NewColtsFan]

 

I think the hate exists on several levels.

 

First,  a losing, wildly out of control season.   Nothing in sports make things go sideways like losing, and since we started the year with Super Bowl intentions,  then losing was doubly hard for fans here to digest.

 

Second,  a series of on-going problem with Grigson.   On-going problems like the OL that never seemed to get fixed.    Draft picks that -- right or wrong -- looking from the outside-in,  they seemed to lack a certain vision and understanding of where the team was each given year.

 

Third,  Pagano rejects the contract extension offer and, around the same time, the talk of a dysfunctional front office goes public.    And this happens around the time that Irsay is in rehab. 

 

Fourth, the Franchise Quarterback gets seriously hurt.    Something fans have been fearing for years.

 

Fifth,  being a fan these days is totally different.   Between insanely increased expectations and the advent of social media,  fans feel like they can practically knock on Irsay's office door to complain.   

 

Combine all these and you get a perfect storm for a lot of anger.    A recipe for a toxic stew of hate.   

 

Unfortunately,  this is the world we live in.    I'd love to tell you things will get better,  but I fear the opposite.

 

Things will likely get worse, I'm sorry to say.     I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm right.

 

 

[FanFromtheWasteland]

I say Grigson. If even half of what we have been hearing is true, that is enough for me to want him to hit the road. We are 4 years into his tenure and our front lines are not much better than they were in 2012 if at all. A speedy receiver isn’t going to do you much good if your franchise QB is in the hospital.

     I deal with a control freak like Grigson on a daily basis. This person doesn’t know how to do their job because they spend most of their time pawning their work off on everyone else but they are more than willing to tell you how to do your job and how much you are doing yours wrong. People like that need a 2x4 upside the head. Maybe more than once.

  Hey Grigson. Your title is GM. No where do I see coach after your name, so butt out of what you don’t know.

[Coltsfan1284]

I see where the some of the people are coming from on the emotional investment and at the same time the overreaction to decisions made by the personnel up top.  However to wish bodily harm or a desire to see someone fail is beyond normal.  I however have different view some of these fans have some input and a right to complain.  Ticket holders that are shelling out 1000's and 100's of dollars for season tickets, gear, and others that are paying 300 a year for directtv deserve to be given the best by the team or if you live in Indiana and pay taxes that go toward the stadium.  We put the money in owners pocket so those who think we as fans don't deserve a voice within reason of course are wrong also.

[bap1331]

It's grigson. Plain and simple. You can't say it's pagano when he's not allowed to do his job. Let him do his job and next season will determine how great he is of a coach.

[Yoshinator]

Pagano goes. Grigson has made a few bad decisions, but one more draft with some more defense and an O-lineman with Luck healthy and we are back to normal and possibly an elite team. I just don't have any trust in Pagano to lead this team to a SB and even win games consistently. There are things wrong with Grigson and he makes mistakes, but he drafts well and manages the cap well. Pagano is very average and inconsistent IMO, as we can score 20 points in one half, and none in another. We can beat the broncos, and lose by 36 to the Jags. It's a rollercoaster every week, and this is whether Luck is playing or not. Pagano is replaceable and would be less of a risk to fire than Grigson, who a solid drafting GM is harder to replace.

[bap1331]

11 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Pagano goes. Grigson has made a few bad decisions, but one more draft with some more defense and an O-lineman with Luck healthy and we are back to normal and possibly an elite team. I just don't have any trust in Pagano to lead this team to a SB and even win games consistently. There are things wrong with Grigson and he makes mistakes, but he drafts well and manages the cap well. Pagano is very average and inconsistent IMO, as we can score 20 points in one half, and none in another. We can beat the broncos, and lose by 36 to the Jags. It's a rollercoaster every week, and this is whether Luck is playing or not. Pagano is replaceable and would be less of a risk to fire than Grigson, who a solid drafting GM is harder to replace.

 

Yea but whoever he drafts, grigson Is a control freak. There are many people who started who should've been released or benched

[Yoshinator]

4 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

 

Yea but whoever he drafts, grigson Is a control freak. There are many people who started who should've been released or benched

I agree with this. Lets just say I completely fear the unknown when it comes to a new GM. I fear, more than anything else, us getting a GM who can't draft at all. Grigson has hit on a lot of picks, and a lot of his picks that he chose, I similarly liked. So I have a comfort factor with Grigson. I'm also a control freak, so I understand him a bit. I said this somewhere in a post earlier, but we can't control decisions on the real Colts team, so I like someone that would draft somewhat similar to me (I would of fixed the O-Line better).

[ricker182]

Grigson if what Kravitz wrote is true.

 

We cannot have that here.

 

Irsay should not tolerate that.

[SteelDragon]

Not much of a contest,  Grigson is public enemy number one right now. Most of the GM rankings(FWIW) have him as a middle-of-the-pack GM. The question is going to be: Can we find a suitable replacement? 

I'm all for Grig's ouster, but I can't deny,  I worry about the availability of GM upgrades.  

I sure wish Irsay could pry one of those top 10 guys from another team

[adamthyst]

Grigson is the one poisoning this team, he HAS to go. 

[indyagent17]

Grigson without a doubt. 4 years and still a deplorable offensive line in front of a franchise qb. But sadly I see only Pagano being let go, the fake punt call is inexcusable 

[indyagent17]

My goodness, I didn't see anybody here personally attack either one of them. It's fair game is fans to judge them based upon their decisions and actions

[MB-ColtsFan]

Grigs is the one to go.

Pep-free in 2016.  Let's see how we roll...

[Nesjan3]

GRIGSON

[lennymoore24]

Grigson.  He has missed more than hit on free agents, not much to show for drafts, and meddles into coaching.  At least Pagano has done the best he could with limited resources.

[bluebombers87]

6 hours ago, BOTT said:

 

what the players think is irrelevant. They aren't hiring Chuck. And can we stop with the "the players like,him and play hard for him".  If that's Chuck's calling card.....big deal.  

 

Again, I think you guys underestimate a lot GM's.  They will value a good coach who makes him look good far more than "hey.....he won't raise a fuss when I do something incredibly stupid"

 

For the hiring process? No you're right. But you'd be foolish to think players looking to come to Indy don't consider the coach. You got a coach whom other players all say he's got your back (like throwing a challenge flag to show he supports you even if it was iffy) and outsiders will want that. So you might not think ra a big deal but to the people who actually matter I would bet it is a big deal.

 

And there's a difference between challenging your boss on matters and being insubordinate. We have no reason to believe that Pags didn't challenge Grigson (in fact, if we are to believe the rumors they must've butted heads at some point hence the barely talking point). The difference is that Pags has the class not to air the dirty laundry out in the open. GMs will see that and realize that he won't be a cancer to the organization.

[Colts_Fan12]

Please freaking can them both so sick of this crap 

[Dustin]

18 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

For the hiring process? No you're right. But you'd be foolish to think players looking to come to Indy don't consider the coach. You got a coach whom other players all say he's got your back (like throwing a challenge flag to show he supports you even if it was iffy) and outsiders will want that. So you might not think ra a big deal but to the people who actually matter I would bet it is a big deal.

 

And there's a difference between challenging your boss on matters and being insubordinate. We have no reason to believe that Pags didn't challenge Grigson (in fact, if we are to believe the rumors they must've butted heads at some point hence the barely talking point). The difference is that Pags has the class not to air the dirty laundry out in the open. GMs will see that and realize that he won't be a cancer to the organization.

 

If a coach throws a challenge flag to "backup a player" he should be fired on the spot.

[Jason_]

9 hours ago, BOTT said:

You can't fix stupid

 

 

*rolls eyes*

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think the hate exists on several levels.

 

First,  a losing, wildly out of control season.   Nothing in sports make things go sideways like losing, and since we started the year with Super Bowl intentions,  then losing was doubly hard for fans here to digest.

 

Second,  a series of on-going problem with Grigson.   On-going problems like the OL that never seemed to get fixed.    Draft picks that -- right or wrong -- looking from the outside-in,  they seemed to lack a certain vision and understanding of where the team was each given year.

 

Third,  Pagano rejects the contract extension offer and, around the same time, the talk of a dysfunctional front office goes public.    And this happens around the time that Irsay is in rehab. 

 

Fourth, the Franchise Quarterback gets seriously hurt.    Something fans have been fearing for years.

 

Fifth,  being a fan these days is totally different.   Between insanely increased expectations and the advent of social media,  fans feel like they can practically knock on Irsay's office door to complain.   

 

Combine all these and you get a perfect storm for a lot of anger.    A recipe for a toxic stew of hate.   

 

Unfortunately,  this is the world we live in.    I'd love to tell you things will get better,  but I fear the opposite.

 

Things will likely get worse, I'm sorry to say.     I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm right.

 

 

Too may present fans have no clue as to what it was like being a Colts fan before Manning. I can remember when going 8-8 was a great year after a couple of years going negative wins. Some call for coaches who really don't have a good as record as Pagano does in their first four years. There is truth to the fact that a lot of people think Colt fans are pretty spoiled. I have said this a few times before and will say it again, "fan" is short for fanatic and we have our share here in this forum. If you fall into that category you are taking this stuff way too serious. Pro sports are suppose to take you away from real life issues, not be the issue.

[JPFolks]

Sounds pretty much like many of us have felt all year as well. The most blatant personnel example was the Harrison over Shipley override.  Harrison is the worst center in the Indianapolis Colts history.  Shipley was performing well by both the eye test and the stat sites.  Harrison is a Grigson "find" just like Richardson... any those two suck equally at their assignments.  

[Carlos Danger]

It just keeps getting crazier... If this stuff is true.

 

How is it that Irsay could let a young, 1st time GM play politics with the roster? 

 

I'm not saying that this should necessarily save Pagano's job here. This info has to be coming from somewhere and the timing can only help Chuck. Not to insinuate that it came from him or one if his guys, but whoever is leaking this info is definitely making Mr. Irsay a bit upset.

 

I will say that it must really burn Chuck up to answer questions every week about roster decisions he had rallied against. It's the kind of thing that might cause a man to devolve into constant cliches and colloquialisms.  

 

"Why do you continue to put T Rich out there every week?"

 

"Mumble Mumble ball of butcher knives iron sharpens iron mumble"