The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[chad hugo]

This organization is a total mess ! Outside of Irsay, who else can remedy this quick ? 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Apparently the Colts in 2012, 2013,  and 2014...if you believe Kravitz.

 

 

Not really. I've been encouraged by the Colts, but they've been a step behind the true elites in the league. 

 

And since we're speculating, I'll offer this: I think Grigson's role and control grew during Irsay's absence in the 2014 offseason. Reports suggest Grigson and Irsay's daughter worked very closely together during that time, basically taking stewardship of the team while Irsay was in rehab, and later on when he was suspended for six weeks. I don't believe and never did believe that Pagano wasn't on board with the Pep hiring, but these decisions about playing Richardson (he was benched late in 2013) and forcing Harrison into the lineup (which happened while Irsay was suspended) could be examples of overreach by Grigson when no one was around to keep him in check. I've mentioned this before.

[achcolts]

2 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Come on, man. That's like you being fired because your boss won't let you manage your employees and team like you want. 

 

trust me, this surprisingly happens in the workplace lol. all politics

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, chad hugo said:

This organization is a total mess ! Outside of Irsay, who else can remedy this quick ? 

We still have Andrew Luck, when you have a franchise QB you always have a chance at winning the big prize.

[Surge89]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. I've been encouraged by the Colts, but they've been a step behind the true elites in the league. 

 

And since we're speculating, I'll offer this: I think Grigson's role and control grew during Irsay's absence in the 2014 offseason. Reports suggest Grigson and Irsay's daughter worked very closely together during that time, basically taking stewardship of the team while Irsay was in rehab, and later on when he was suspended for six weeks. I don't believe and never did believe that Pagano wasn't on board with the Pep hiring, but these decisions about playing Richardson (he was benched late in 2013) and forcing Harrison into the lineup (which happened while Irsay was suspended) could be examples of overreach by Grigson when no one was around to keep him in check. I've mentioned this before.

 

Extremely possible.  But that also means Grigs has a trust issue.  As a GM you have to have the confidence that your coach will play your players.  If he doesn't you replace him at the end.  You don't undermine him during.  Like we said before time for both to go.

[DougDew]

22 minutes ago, peytonmanning18 said:

 

You start your post saying "we're all big boys" and you follow that with an extremely childish post.

Its not childish.  Its trying to find the truth...and being adult enough to accept it...something that journalists are suppose to do. 

 

Childishness is burying your head in the sand because you don't want to talk about it. 

 

I want to know the truth why Pep had special reporting lines to the GM and apparently a certain level of job security that other assistants didn't have.  Kravitz suggests that he did, not me.

 

Kravitz tosses that in there for us to believe that Grigson meddles (inappropriately)...but it also opens up the idea of something else...but we all need to close our minds to other possibilities and just listen to Bobby's opinion.

[achcolts]

i personally think if the players truly liked playing for pagano and also agree grigs is the problem, then it will for sure be heard by irsay.. hopefully luck is vocal enough as a leader to speak for him and the team's future to irsay about the real problem. 

 

if this was the case, i wouldnt rule out grigson going and pags staying.  if pags goes, i feel like it means not much of the players or enough were too high on him.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its not childish.  Its trying to find the truth...and being adult enough to accept it...something that journalists are suppose to do. 

 

Childishness is burying your head in the sand because you don't want to talk about it. 

 

I want to know the truth why Pep had special reporting lines to the GM and apparently a certain level of job security and not other assistants.  Kravitz suggests that he did, not me.

 

Kravitz tosses that in there for us to believe that Grigson meddles (inappropriately)...but it also opens up the idea of something else...but we all need to close our minds to other possibilities and just listen to Bobby's opinion.

 

Not really. You just made something up, with nothing to support it, and expect people to take it seriously. Sorry. There's nothing to indicate that that Pep's situation was influenced by race in anyway, and what should really drive that point home is that Pep was unceremoniously dismissed from a coaching staff that was lame duck anyway. 

[chad hugo]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We still have Andrew Luck, when you have a franchise QB you always have a chance at winning the big prize.

 

I meant in the FO

[peytonmanning18]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its not childish.  Its trying to find the truth...and being adult enough to accept it...something that journalists are suppose to do. 

 

Childishness is burying your head in the sand because you don't want to talk about it. 

 

I want to know the truth why Pep had special reporting lines to the GM and apparently a certain level of job security that other assistants didn't have.  Kravitz suggests that he did, not me.

 

Kravitz tosses that in there for us to believe that Grigson meddles (inappropriately)...but it also opens up the idea of something else...but we all need to close our minds to other possibilities and just listen to Bobby's opinion.

 

Maybe Pep had more security because he was Grigson's little pet project much like Harrison and Richardson.  

[ColtRider]

1 hour ago, bluebombers87 said:

In my totally non-important opinion, I feel that if even half of this is true, then Grigson has to go. 

 

You cannot in any way hold a coach responsible if his boss has been undermining him.

 

So far this year we have reports of tension between Pags and Grigs. We've also heard rumors of issues between Grigs and Irsay. What's the common denominator?

 

This forum has been hyper-critical of Pags. It's a trend that probably extends to most teams fanbases but we as Colts fans have been (again in my worthless opinion) overly critical of all our coaches.

 

Exactly. Finding the common denominator solves most problems, if not all. It's always been my approach in the business world and tends to lay out patterns at an astounding percentage rate of probability. 

[Cynjin]

2 hours ago, BOTT said:

It was a good call.  Bad spot by the refs.

 

It was not a bad spot by the refs.

[DougDew]

39 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

It's... possible yes.

 

But Irsay has been known to be extremely open to black and white candidates for his coaches.  If it were a race issue it would have been Grigson and Grigson alone and if Grigson was found for that Irsay could lose more than just money but even his team.  There is close to 0% chance that Irsay lets that happen even for a second.

 

So no I don't think this is plausible.

 

Its plausible.  Kravitz just suggests Pep's special relationship was bad management on the part of Grigson, when the reporting structure and job security could have been justifiable for several reasons.

 

Open to black and white is not the issue.  Its about keeping things even after it went negative for one side recently...which the activists watch for incessantly...and the firing of Pep will weigh heavily upon whether or not Hue Jackson becomes the next HC. 

 

But that's another topic if that happens.

[DougDew]

30 minutes ago, peytonmanning18 said:

 

Maybe Pep had more security because he was Grigson's little pet project much like Harrison and Richardson.  

Agreed.  He wanted to know if they were competent.  Seems like justifiable meddling.

 

Except for Richardson...I haven't discussed that yet.  With as bad as Richardson played, I would think Grigson would want to hide him from play, not continue to show his mistake to the public every series.

 

Forcing the HC to start a bad player doesn't justify the trade...it exposes it.  Again, Kravitz makes no sense.

 

And its not even a fact...how would his source know that Grigs was trying to justify a trade?...that would be the source's opinion.  An opinion of a source is still an opinion...and in the journalistic sense...it wouldn't be a source.

 

But Kravitz uses the term source to confuse the reader into thinking that "trying to justify the trade" was a fact....clever.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

If Chuck allowed it to happen, he should grow a pair.

 

He did grow a pair.

 

When the owner offered him a 1-year extension, he rejected it.   And reportedly,  multiple times.

 

He'll likely get hired by another team this off-season.    And I hope he does well and is appreciated.

 

 

[VaAllDay757]

3 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

No, its Paganos fault he is a bad head coach with bad game management abilities.

That's why he will be fired on monday

[DougDew]

37 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. You just made something up, with nothing to support it, and expect people to take it seriously. Sorry. There's nothing to indicate that that Pep's situation was influenced by race in anyway, and what should really drive that point home is that Pep was unceremoniously dismissed from a coaching staff that was lame duck anyway. 

Nice try.  A theory is not making something up.  Its the first step.  Kravitz didn't even try that theory because it might produce an answer that disagreed with his politics...so we're left with his opinion.

[Surge89]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Its plausible.  Kravitz just suggests Pep's special relationship was bad management on the part of Grigson, when the reporting structure and job security could have been justifiable for several reasons.

 

Open to black and white is not the issue.  Its about keeping things even after it went negative for one side recently...which the activists watch for incessantly...and the firing of Pep will weigh heavily upon whether or not Hue Jackson becomes the next HC. 

 

But that's another topic if that happens.

 

I'm sorry I'm trying to be objective but in all honesty this is quite ludicrous.

 

He is suggesting a special relationship based on the fact that Grigson wanted him.  Not because he was a black coach among whites.

 

It went negative JUSTIFIABLY SO.  I mean cmon.  It was clear and evident that the OC could not get the offense back into the form it needed to be.  It was this way due to some very very questionable play calling and schematics that the OC has direct control of.  You are attempting to put an issue in that literally has no plausible grounds to stand on.

 

The hiring of Hue Jackson is going to be done regardless of Pep.  It will be an assessment of football knowledge (which he has a ton) and not the color of his skin.  The fact that racism is still brought when it is clearly not an issue is in fact in itself racist.  Don't crutch on racism.  It is beneath what people like MLK and Malcolm stood for. 

 

Apologies for taking this off topic.

[Surge89]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

He did grow a pair.

 

When the owner offered him a 1-year extension, he rejected it.   And reportedly,  multiple times.

 

He'll likely get hired by another team this off-season.    And I hope he does well and is appreciated.

 

 

 

Thank you.

[bluebombers87]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

 

 

I wasn't just talking GM's, but

 

i think you guys underestimate the league.  You think they believe the recipe for success is to be meddling GM who undercuts the very coach he hired?  If all is true, I think Grigson would be viewed as a meddling fool and Chuck the nice guy pushover.  Neither is very appealing.

If you reference my previous posts you'll see I hold Grigson accountable for the majority of issues and is wrong. Pags had his issues and made some questionable calls (no coach is above that btw, we on this forum are far too knee jerk) but if your boss ties your hands you cannot be held responsible for the outcome.

 

And nice guy pushover? The players like him. The players respect him. Players play for coaches. Not GMs or owners. If you perceive him as a nice guy pushover but the players all wanna play for him, guess who's opinion on the issue actually matters?

 

And GMs are gonna like the fact that Pags hasn't to date called out Grigson for meddling. That makes him more appealing than not.

[MTC]

Pure speculation: Would have to believe the "source" telling this information to Kravitz is Chudzinski. He's the only person who would know this much info because he's a trusted friend of Pagano.

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

I'm sorry I'm trying to be objective but in all honesty this is quite ludicrous.

 

He is suggesting a special relationship based on the fact that Grigson wanted him.  Not because he was a black coach among whites.

 

It went negative JUSTIFIABLY SO.  I mean cmon.  It was clear and evident that the OC could not get the offense back into the form it needed to be.  It was this way due to some very very questionable play calling and schematics that the OC has direct control of.  You are attempting to put an issue in that literally has no plausible grounds to stand on.

 

The hiring of Hue Jackson is going to be done regardless of Pep.  It will be an assessment of football knowledge (which he has a ton) and not the color of his skin.  The fact that racism is still brought when it is clearly not an issue is in fact in itself racist.  Don't crutch on racism.  It is beneath what people like MLK and Malcolm stood for. 

 

Apologies for taking this off topic.

Don't be naïve.  The NFL desires a sufficient amount of black HCs and Assistants to keep the activists off of its back.  That's not charity, it doesn't mean they don't deserve it, it just means it makes things easier if black HCs or ACs rotate through the organization on a frequent basis.

 

 A company does not have to hire the most qualified candidate, it just has to make sure that the candidate is qualified, then it can use race as a basis for the hire.  That statement is in the written diversity policies of every major corporation in America.

 

The NFL is a major American corporation.

 

Kravitz doesn't know why Pep had the special reporting structure.  He says that the special reporting structure is evidence of Grigson being a domineering *..but DOESN"T suggest that it might be evidence of the Colts following a corporate diversity policy.  He doesn't know that race had nothing to do with it...and it would have been perfectly legal if it did.  Just like it might with Hue Jackson.

[BOTT]

45 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

It was not a bad spot by the refs.

 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

40 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

He did grow a pair.

 

When the owner offered him a 1-year extension, he rejected it.   And reportedly,  multiple times.

 

He'll likely get hired by another team this off-season.    And I hope he does well and is appreciated.

 

 

He certainly did...this whole thing isn't Chuck's or Ryan's fault as it just didn't work. I think both will land on their feet after the dust settles, though I believe this team needs an infusion of new blood at both positions?

[TheRustonRifle#7]

6 hours ago, theanarchist said:

Seeing how his contract is up at the end of the season I'm not sure that they we need to "fire" him. No contract means no job.

Exactly!

 

[BOTT]

14 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

If you reference my previous posts you'll see I hold Grigson accountable for the majority of issues and is wrong. Pags had his issues and made some questionable calls (no coach is above that btw, we on this forum are far too knee jerk) but if your boss ties your hands you cannot be held responsible for the outcome.

 

And nice guy pushover? The players like him. The players respect him. Players play for coaches. Not GMs or owners. If you perceive him as a nice guy pushover but the players all wanna play for him, guess who's opinion on the issue actually matters?

 

And GMs are gonna like the fact that Pags hasn't to date called out Grigson for meddling. That makes him more appealing than not.

what the players think is irrelevant. They aren't hiring Chuck. And can we stop with the "the players like,him and play hard for him".  If that's Chuck's calling card.....big deal.  

 

Again, I think you guys underestimate a lot GM's.  They will value a good coach who makes him look good far more than "hey.....he won't raise a fuss when I do something incredibly stupid"

[BOTT]

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

He did grow a pair.

 

When the owner offered him a 1-year extension, he rejected it.   And reportedly,  multiple times.

 

He'll likely get hired by another team this off-season.    And I hope he does well and is appreciated.

 

 

I wouldn't exactly call that growing a pair, but we see things differently.

 

I hope he gets hired.....by the Titans.

[NewColtsFan]

9 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I wouldn't exactly call that growing a pair, but we see things differently.

 

I hope he gets hired.....by the Titans.

 

Really?      Seriously?       You wouldn't call that growing a pair?

 

Turning down guaranteed money for another year and betting on yourself when you're working for a GM who you think only makes your job harder?       That's not growing a pair?

 

Wow,  we really do see things differently..........     Guess that's what makes the world go around.....

 

[OffensivelyPC]

6 hours ago, bleevit said:

Hey Jim Irsay...Fire Chuck at your own risk.  As I just read in Sporting News it is a shame to make Chuck pay for Grigson's obvious inexperience and blunders.  I for one will lose all faith in your judgement if you pull of this boneheaded move.  

You do realize that Chuck has less NFL experience as a head coach than Grigs has as an NFL GM, right?

[Tsarquise]

There is a report that Ryan Grigson will be the new head coach.

[GwinnettColt]

I thought I just heard on the news that Grigson will stay long enough to choose a new head coach.  Why would this occur?  So you pick a coach right before you're fired

 

Get rid of Grigson the same day Pagano goes. 

[buccolts]

4 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

Did Grigson call that fake punt? 

Good point. If he went that far, he's got to go.

 

 

 

 

s/

[buccolts]

2 hours ago, chad hugo said:

This organization is a total mess ! Outside of Irsay, who else can remedy this quick ? 

 

We're working on that, right now.

[DougDew]

The past few weeks have had threads and comments filled with what seem like hate towards Pagano, Grigson, or both; which has been very strange to me.  Many comments indicate hate of almost a personal nature, like those guys ran over your dog, or caused you money in a betting pool.  Some seem personally offended at the idea the Colts might go 7-9.   This is just a football team.  It took a step back after its three straight years of forward progress.  No successful endeavor has ever had a straight line trajectory.  The people who run, manage, and coach the Colts all have decisions to make and things to consider that you and I would never come close to knowing about.   And most of all remember, Jim Irsay knows more about his business than you do, so enjoy the interest that change brings, because that's about the extent of what it means to us fans....interest. 

[DougDew]

16 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

I thought I just heard on the news that Grigson will stay long enough to choose a new head coach.  Why would this occur?  So you pick a coach right before you're fired

 

Get rid of Grigson the same day Pagano goes. 

I don't think that's exactly what the report said...but if true, perhaps Grigson has a job lined up with the Eagles or some other place that he'd rather be.....so there may not be any hard feelings.

 

But I think the report said that he will be involved in the hire for the new coach...and that he might be the GM after the coach is hired.

[GwinnettColt]

By that rationale, the Trent Richardson trade for a first round pick was brilliant.  

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

By that rationale, the Trent Richardson trade for a first round pick was brilliant.  

I think you quoted the wrong thread...it happens anymore.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

By that rationale, the Trent Richardson trade for a first round pick was brilliant.  

Is it rational to still whine about something that is 3 years old? If that is all you base your opinion on, it's lame.

[GwinnettColt]

No, I was quoting the correct one.  By your rationale, Grigson made a wise decision in trading that first round to Cleveland or Trent was a good trade.  He was the leadership and we, as fans, should have supported it.

 

Also, it was wise to get Todd Herremans instead of other available O-linemen that were available, such as Vasquez.

 

Granted, Grigson has made some good calls (Gore, Vontae, for example) but some have seemed stubborn and irresponsible, such as the Richardson trade.    

[GwinnettColt]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Is it rational to still whine about something that is 3 years old? If that is all you base your opinion on, it's lame.

 

It was an example.  You're right.....Grigson is the greatest GM in the NFL and has made very wise decisions concerning the offensive line personnel during Luck's tenure here.    

 

Lame?  Now that hurt my feelings.   Ok, I'm over it.