Colts trenches through week 3

[Lawrence Owen]

Well, We have proven two things so far, we can run, and stop the run.  We are 6th in the NFL averaging 4.5 YPC as a team, and defensively are 12th giving up only 3.7 ypc.  

 

However, in the pass game, we allow way to much QB hurries and hits, and Defensively, don't get enough pressure on the QB, -granted having Mathis back helps, he Freeman and Parry got sacks last game.-

[ProblChld32]

On defense i think once our secondary is Healthier we should have no problem getting after the QB as Toler and Vontae provide adequate coverage enough where the QB will need to hold the ball a bit longer, thus allowing the rush to get there. On Offense something just really has to give. They need to find a way to protect Luck, im tired of seeing him in the turf every other play.

[Smonroe]

Well, We have proven two things so far, we can run, and stop the run.  We are 6th in the NFL averaging 4.5 YPC as a team, and defensively are 12th giving up only 3.7 ypc.  

 

However, in the pass game, we allow way to much QB hurries and hits, and Defensively, don't get enough pressure on the QB, -granted having Mathis back helps, he Freeman and Parry got sacks last game.-

 

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat?  (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

[Coffeedrinker]

I don't think the pressures and hits on Luck are all the lines fault.  I think a lot of it has to do with scheme and recognition by Luck.  Buffalo and Jets blitzed a lot and no matter how good the players are 5 guys are not going to be able to block 6 and 7 defenders consistently.  Scheme comes into play because you want to design things to at least make those extra guys come from the outside not up the middle.  Recognition from Luck comes into play for him to check out of a play or get rid of the ball quickly in the area vacated by the blitz.  Luck has done neither well this season.

 

I'm not saying the line has played perfect, they have not and there is a lot of room for improvement and I think we will see that improvement with the new lineup.  Nor is the problem as bad as a lot of fans want to make it.  IN the Bills game Luck got hit 6 times plus 2 sacks.  Not great but not bad on 49 drop back.  The Jets game was really bad with 11 QB hits but then in the Titans game the Colts only gave up 4 QB hits, that was part line and part Luck recognizing things and getting rid of the ball faster.

[PeterBowman]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat?  (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

that's the big one right there....Colts have those plays (as referenced by the 4th quarter last game)...they just don't want to use them enough.

 

if they were to kill them with the short game, then teams will stop blitzing and creep up in their coverage...thus (in theory) allowing the speedsters on the outside a better opportunity.

[Defjamz26]

On defense i think once our secondary is Healthier we should have no problem getting after the QB as Toler and Vontae provide adequate coverage enough where the QB will need to hold the ball a bit longer, thus allowing the rush to get there. On Offense something just really has to give. They need to find a way to protect Luck, im tired of seeing him in the turf every other play.

Nah the pass rush is booty. I don't blame Mathis because he's old and coming off an Achilles injury, but Cole was never even that good in Philly and he isn't doing much here either.

That's a problem that won't be resolved until April though. Not enough talent there now or for the future.

[PeterBowman]

I know Thornton was much maligned in the passing game with his holding, but most of Gores big runs were to the right side....Thornton was a big reason for that.

[Chucklez]

Well, We have proven two things so far, we can run, and stop the run.  We are 6th in the NFL averaging 4.5 YPC as a team, and defensively are 12th giving up only 3.7 ypc.  

 

However, in the pass game, we allow way to much QB hurries and hits, and Defensively, don't get enough pressure on the QB, -granted having Mathis back helps, he Freeman and Parry got sacks last game.-

Our lack of a healthy secondary has contributed to the bad pass rushing figures too.... Weak and soft coverages allows the opposing qb to get rid of the ball quickly and easily.

It's a bit of a vicious circle really - no pass rush = harder for the secondary and a bad secondary = harder job for the pass rush...

[CoachSmok3]

On defense i think once our secondary is Healthier we should have no problem getting after the QB as Toler and Vontae provide adequate coverage enough where the QB will need to hold the ball a bit longer, thus allowing the rush to get there. On Offense something just really has to give. They need to find a way to protect Luck, im tired of seeing him in the turf every other play.

 

i agree that the above statements are often overlooked recently, regarding the secondary/pass rush. We can say the pass rush has been lacking and we arent getting after the QB, Cole is a dud, and the LBs as a hole are not providing a push, etc...

 

But as a DC it would have to be much more difficult and complicated than we, fans, can comprehend from our comfy recliners on Sundays, attempting to game plan a rush, while leaving your 5th, 6th, and (less than a week new) CBs against a teams number 2,3,4 WRs. 

 

a benefit of good/competent coverage on the back end, is less need to use your front 7 in coverage, and a more opportune times to send players after the QB.

 

I dont see the sack totals matching the past 2 years at this point, but I dont see a huge decline either. I think as the season progresses and players return to health, as will our pass rush.

[CoachSmok3]

It's a bit of a vicious circle really -

 

no pass rush = harder for the secondary and a bad secondary = harder job for the pass rush...

 

truth... its like a symbiotic relationship lol. 

[Jason_]

Nah the pass rush is booty. I don't blame Mathis because he's old and coming off an Achilles injury, but Cole was never even that good in Philly and he isn't doing much here either.

That's a problem that won't be resolved until April though. Not enough talent there now or for the future.

 

Really?  I mean..he has averaged ~8.5 sacks per season over the course of his career.

[Smash Mouth]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat?  (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

I think its both how quickly Brady gets rid of the ball and how they evaluate talent.  In the 1st game of the season the Pats started 2 rookies on the OL and didn't miss a beat.  They also demand a level of discipline that we don;t have.  The Colts used to have that discipline of committing few penalties.

[Defjamz26]

Really? I mean..he has averaged ~8.5 sacks per season over the course of his career.

My friend is an Eagles fan and told me it was more like 6-7.5. His best was that season where he and Babin combined for 19.5 sacks.

But even so, 8.5 is pedestrian. Chandler Jones on the Pats is that type of guy. The Eagles let him walk and Barwin got 19 sacks, and he isn't an elite pass rusher either. My point is Cole is, and has always been an average edge pass rusher.

[Jason_]

My friend is an Eagles fan and told me it was more like 6-7.5. His best was that season where he and Babin combined for 19.5 sacks.

But even so, 8.5 is pedestrian. Chandler Jones on the Pats is that type of guy. The Eagles let him walk and Barwin got 19 sacks, and he isn't an elite pass rusher either. My point is Cole is, and has always been an average edge pass rusher.

 

Your friend the Eagles fan doesn't know how math works.  Coming into this season, Cole had played 10 seasons in the NFL and had racked up 85.5 sacks.  85.5 / 10 = 8.55 sacks per season.  No idea where this friend got 6-7.5. 

 

Also, an 8.5 average per season over the course of a 10 year (so far) career is hardly pedestrian.  For comparison, coming into this season, Mathis has averaged 10.1 sacks per season. 

[throwing BBZ]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat?  (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

 

 nonsense. Our ___QB has been going to the line with multiple run and pass options since his 1st season.

Will you sorry --- apologists give it up and lay the blame where it belongs, on our genius that holds the ball to long because he is "so good" at looking downfield. 

 He is just starting to develop his weak short (touch & accuracy issues)  game and it is about ____ time.

[TKnight24]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls.

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique?

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat? (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

You just answered your own question

And not all the time. When they play physical defenses like Baltimore Brady takes his fair share of hits

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

Neither do I for sure, but the evidence suggest he doesn't teach much if anything. Time of a change, I think.

[Defjamz26]

Your friend the Eagles fan doesn't know how math works. Coming into this season, Cole had played 10 seasons in the NFL and had racked up 85.5 sacks. 85.5 / 10 = 8.55 sacks per season. No idea where this friend got 6-7.5.

Also, an 8.5 average per season over the course of a 10 year (so far) career is hardly pedestrian. For comparison, coming into this season, Mathis has averaged 10.1 sacks per season.

That's a general figure though that you get by dividing. That's assuming he got exactly 8.5 sacks a year and not a few seasons where the number was higher.

As to your second point, I was saying that those numbers aren't indicative of an "elite" pass rusher. Even for Mathis. 11+ is a top tier rusher IMO.

I'm not saying he's terrible but he's average.

[krunk]

My friend is an Eagles fan and told me it was more like 6-7.5. His best was that season where he and Babin combined for 19.5 sacks.

But even so, 8.5 is pedestrian. Chandler Jones on the Pats is that type of guy. The Eagles let him walk and Barwin got 19 sacks, and he isn't an elite pass rusher either. My point is Cole is, and has always been an average edge pass rusher.

 

He's called the Hunter, but at this point I don't necessarily know if they were looking for extreme pass rush from Cole.  I think he'll do better than Werner as the season progresses. I saw him get 2 or 3 pressures against Tyrod in the Bills game so he's still got some ability. Plus you have to remember you aren't going to sack the quarterback every single game.  I've seen games against Houston where Robert Mathis was shut out the entire game so I'm going to be more patient.  I think he also gives some pretty good value as an edge player against the run.  Edges are pretty good when Cole and Walden are in the game. 

 

I think the Colts are likely to be evaluating where Jonathan Newsome is at this point because he's done nothing. Plus we are slowly bringing Mathis back.  People may say Mathis is old and injured, but hey he only played in spots vs Titans and still came away with a sack so he's trending in the right direction.  All in all it's a work in progress that I expect to get better especially when we are healthy in the secondary.

[ProblChld32]

Nah the pass rush is booty. I don't blame Mathis because he's old and coming off an Achilles injury, but Cole was never even that good in Philly and he isn't doing much here either.

That's a problem that won't be resolved until April though. Not enough talent there now or for the future.

 

Pass rush isn't that bad. Cole was actually really effective for the Eagles he had 7 sacks last season situationally rushing. Yes he is seasoned in age but he still flashes the ability to get after it. its extremely hard to judge how good or bad the pass rush is going to be given that our secondary is depleted and seeing that we faced 2 mobile QB's. atleast give it till week 7 before you write the ability to pressure the QB off.  

[Jason_]

That's a general figure though that you get by dividing. That's assuming he got exactly 8.5 sacks a year and not a few seasons where the number was higher.

 

 

It's an average.  Do you know how averages work?  It does not at all assume he got 8.5 sacks every single year.  Of course there were some years he got more and others he got less.  That's how averages work.  Very simple concept.

 

As to your second point, I was saying that those numbers aren't indicative of an "elite" pass rusher. Even for Mathis. 11+ is a top tier rusher IMO.

I'm not saying he's terrible but he's average.

 

 

 Ok you've changed your point....you originally said that Cole was "never even that good", not that he was not "elite".  Is Dwight Freeney an "elite" pass rusher?  He's averaged 8.6 sacks per season.  Is the difference between not that good and elite really only 2.5 sacks per year? 

[bababooey]

Luck holds the ball a lot of time too, contributing to his pressures/hits/knockdowns.

[NewEra]

that's the big one right there....Colts have those plays (as referenced by the 4th quarter last game)...they just don't want to use them enough.

if they were to kill them with the short game, then teams will stop blitzing and creep up in their coverage...thus (in theory) allowing the speedsters on the outside a better opportunity.

Really ticks me off that it took 2 3/4 games to finally use them. Pep clearly show he doesn't know how to strategize and run a offense. You use the run to set up play action. You use short passes to hit them with long. We just seem to keep wanting to go deep all game every play. That 4th qt drive was the best play calling I've seen out of three games

[DougDew]

I don't recall Cole ever being talked about in the same manner as Mathis, Freeney, Jared Allen, Ali, Houston, or any of the NYG pass rushers.  I think his stats were a function of the team defense.  He's not going to get the same type of numbers with the Colts as those other players did with their teams.  I don't think Grigs gave out a lot of guaranteed money.

 

Speaking of trenches in general.  This Spring, finding a good edge rusher in the draft is more important than finding a good G.  Maybe finding a good CB is more important too.  Sorry...its true.

 

But G's can be found in the 3rd and 4th, so its okay.

[NewEra]

Our D line is looking top notch at stopping the run. I think with our CB's healthy we can get to the QB more and be able to work the blitz

[will426]

Really ticks me off that it took 2 3/4 games to finally use them. Pep clearly show he doesn't know how to strategize and run a offense. You use the run to set up play action. You use short passes to hit them with long. We just seem to keep wanting to go deep all game every play. That 4th qt drive was the best play calling I've seen out of three games

psh only cuz they went uptempo did something start to click this team is used to being clutch from lucks rookie season and peps forcing them back into that mode

[NewEra]

psh only cuz they went uptempo did something start to click this team is used to being clutch from lucks rookie season and peps forcing them back into that mode

Psh, that uptempo had a lot of short passes. Got a nice rythm going. So call it what you want but that's what we need. That haven't shown a answer for the blitz since BUF. Pep is horrible

[csmopar]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

I keep asking the same question - how come the Patriots can swap guys in and out of their O line without missing a beat?  (I know it helps that they have plays designed so that Brady gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds...)

 

 

Probably doing something illegal.........hhahaha sorry couldnt resist

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

It's like this... Our oline is average..

And also, our OC, is average. Deadly combo.

[will426]

Psh, that uptempo had a lot of short passes. Got a nice rythm going. So call it what you want but that's what we need. That haven't shown a answer for the blitz since BUF. Pep is horrible

oh I agree fully with you my mistake lol if I was luck I'd just run the offense at my own pace bc idk wth is up with pep he's dysfunctional this year

[krunk]

I really want to see us increasing the amt of play action passing we do.

[NewEra]

oh I agree fully with you my mistake lol if I was luck I'd just run the offense at my own pace bc idk wth is up with pep he's dysfunctional this year

Lol my bad, totally misread that. I agree, we need more uptempo to set up the big plays. I haven't liked Peppy le pu's play calling since he's been here

[NewEra]

I really want to see us increasing the amt of play action passing we do.

With Gore running like he had been it should be deadly

[PeterBowman]

With Gore running like he had been it should be deadly

remember the few times they did the play action against the Jets, it was very effective

[will426]

Lol my bad, totally misread that. I agree, we need more uptempo to set up the big plays. I haven't liked Peppy le pu's play calling since he's been here

see that's what I liked about BA he got his Qb killed and we still had a offense lol with pep he's getting luck killed for what? Not benefitting whatsoever

[Steamboat_Shaun]

We probably also lead the league in drive killing holding calls. 

 

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique? 

 

No.

[ColtStronger]

Well, We have proven two things so far, we can run, and stop the run.  We are 6th in the NFL averaging 4.5 YPC as a team, and defensively are 12th giving up only 3.7 ypc.  

 

However, in the pass game, we allow way to much QB hurries and hits, and Defensively, don't get enough pressure on the QB, -granted having Mathis back helps, he Freeman and Parry got sacks last game.-

Stopping the run has been terrific, apart from a few plays against Buffalo.  Pass protection has been the polar opposite on the same spectrum!

 

Pass Rush has been mediocre, while run blocking has been above average, however I do credit Frank Gore's ability more than I would the OL...

[COLTS449]

We'll get a whole lot better against the pass when Toler and Butler come back, and when Mathis gets up to speed. With a healthy secondary and a pass rush we have a top 10 D easily IMO. As for the trenches. Our D-Line has looked absolutely spectacular, though. Our O-Line HAS to get better. No other way to put it. It has to improve. But yeah. For the first time in a while we can run the ball, and stop the run.

[GoColts8818]

Luck holds the ball a lot of time too, contributing to his pressures/hits/knockdowns.

while I fully agree the oline is a major issue I think Luck's biggest issue is the same issue that plagued Manning early in his career, he's trying to do too much and things like holding the ball too long is a sign of that. He doesn't like to give up on a play. His second INT was a product of this. He could have thrown the ball away but kept it in the field of play and threw into coverage and got picked.

He has yet to learn what Manning said was the hardest thing of his career, a punt wasn't the worst thing that could happen to you. Heck with McAfee sometimes a punt is a really good play for the Colts because he can change the field position himself. So hopefully the coaches keep getting in Luck's ear and work on convincing him to trust his teammates and stop putting to much weight on his shoulders and stop doing too much.

[Malakai432]

I don't know anything about our O line coach, is he teaching proper technique?

Hmm, now that may just be taking it too far. Whatever he is doing, he's not going a great job at it. At the same time the OL isn't filled with all world talent so I'll give him some benefit of doubt.