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So is Chuck Pagano really the DB Whisperer?

iLoveMyBoys

By iLoveMyBoys
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iLoveMyBoys Walk On

iLoveMyBoys

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-Turned Vontae Davis into a top 5 CB

-Greg Toler has been a solid #2 here

-Revived Darius Butler career in the slot

-Pulled Mike Adams off the street in June to the pro bowl

-Turned Marcus Burley into a late round pick for us

I see why the colts dont go out and spend big on DBs(Laron Landry) other than Vontae and they shouldn't based on Paganos resume. I trust that he can develop some young DB talent for us.

Is there and young DBs out of the draft or some random guys off the street that you would like to see Chuck Pagano work with or should work with?

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iLoveMyBoys

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In a thread I had about possible trades like the Vontae one I said I would love to trade a late pick for Morris Claiborne to have Pags work with him he no longer fits the cowboys D scheme

Yea i would like to Claiborne i think Pagano could help him reach his potential

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Superman

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I think Pagano's personality is attractive to a lot of players, obviously. He's always highly spoken of. And having a background with DBs obviously helps. He also has a special teams history, and our special teams has gotten better with him here.

 

But as the head coach, I don't know how much time he spends, hands on, with the DBs. The guys that have had success here -- Davis, Toler, Butler, Adams, Burley, etc., even Purifoy -- are all talented guys to begin with. Davis was a first rounder, Butler was a second, Purifoy went undrafted because he's a knucklehead, not because he's a bum. 

 

So I don't know if he's the DB whisperer. But he does seem like the kind of guy that players want to play hard for, don't want to disappoint, etc. Anyone with the requisite self-awareness seems to "get it" and fly straight once they get here.

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Defjamz26 Ring of Honor

Defjamz26

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It's hard to say because he's a head coach.  If he were a positional coach, we'd be able to know his impact better.  But as a head coach, there are so many things to look at and analyze that we don't know how much time he spends with the DBs

 

I don't think that's true. Look at Rex Ryan. Dominant defensive fronts but very poor QB play. Lives up to his billing as a defensive guru. Juan Rivera was the former Eagles LB coach and he has Thomas Davis and Luke Keuchly playing at pro-bowl levels. Andy Reid has very much proved to be the QB guru he is said to be.

 

Basically a lot of head coaches have specialties. It may not seem like they have interactions with specific position groups, and the GMs may have the say over roster moves but they have an eye for talent and I'm sure they help to coach them up during drills. When the D is working out on the field, I'm sure Pagano isn't just off having a coffee somewhere. He's out there helping them get in shape and telling them where to improve at.

 

Mike Wallace is a former WR's coach with the Bucs. Are you saying there's no correlation between that and him having gotten good production out of Wallace, Brown, Sanders, and now Bryant?

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Superman

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I don't think that's true. Look at Rex Ryan. Dominant defensive fronts but very poor QB play. Lives up to his billing as a defensive guru. Juan Rivera was the former Eagles LB coach and he has Thomas Davis and Luke Keuchly playing at pro-bowl levels. Andy Reid has very much proved to be the QB guru he is said to be.

 

Basically a lot of head coaches have specialties. It may not seem like they have interactions with specific position groups, and the GMs may have the say over roster moves but they have an eye for talent and I'm sure they help to coach them up during drills. When the D is working out on the field, I'm sure Pagano isn't just off having a coffee somewhere. He's out there helping them get in shape and telling them where to improve at.

 

Mike Wallace is a former WR's coach with the Bucs. Are you saying there's no correlation between that and him having gotten good production out of Wallace, Brown, Sanders, and now Bryant?

 

Rex Ryan focuses directly on the defense, even calling the plays at times. And he puts a ton of resources into the defensive side of the ball.

 

Thomas Davis and Luke Kuechly are just really good players. They'd be good anywhere. I don't think that's a credit specifically to Ron Rivera.

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

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He needs to quit whispering & speak up loudly so the whole defense might share in his infinite wisdom .

 

Be loud & Proud & build this Monster ...

 

It would really help if Grigson got Pagano and Manusky some real talent to work with.

 

Smoke and mirrors will only take you so far.

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ColtsFanMikeC

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I think Pagano's personality is attractive to a lot of players, obviously. He's always highly spoken of. And having a background with DBs obviously helps. He also has a special teams history, and our special teams has gotten better with him here.

 

But as the head coach, I don't know how much time he spends, hands on, with the DBs. The guys that have had success here -- Davis, Toler, Butler, Adams, Burley, etc., even Purifoy -- are all talented guys to begin with. Davis was a first rounder, Butler was a second, Purifoy went undrafted because he's a knucklehead, not because he's a bum. 

 

So I don't know if he's the DB whisperer. But he does seem like the kind of guy that players want to play hard for, don't want to disappoint, etc. Anyone with the requisite self-awareness seems to "get it" and fly straight once they get here.

One thing I admire about Pagano is his willingness to give 2nd chances (and his short-leash approach - see Purifoy, Da'Rick, Lefeged, etc.).  In Vontae's case, Vontae has admitted that Miami was too much for him at such a young age with all the money he had because of the distractions and nightlife.  Pagano (and Grigs) was willing to take a chance on him and Vontae has shown much more maturity since.  Butler has majorly revived his career since coming to Indy.  Purifoy, IMO, could have been a very good player for us had he not screwed up again -- but he went undrafted and it didn't seem like many teams were willing to take a risk on him.  You are correct that most of the players who have succeeded here were talented to begin with, but several have really improved their level of play since becoming Colts (Vontae, Butler, Adams, and probably even Toler).  It's hard to say if they've improved because coaching put them in schemes to maximize talent, helped improve the talent, or just improved their attitude (or all of the above).  Anyway, even if Pagano and co. are not doing anything from the fundamental standpoint to help improve these guys' games, they are certainly doing something to help improve their games -- if we improve the pass-rush and sure up our other safety position (I'm not totally convinced Sergio Brown isn't the answer), our DBs should be dynamite -- whether Pagano is improving their talent or just their attitude, I think he should get some credit as a DB Whisperer.

 

But still cant revive them to beat the patriots. How was he able to give them fits in baltimore but not in indy?

A big part of solid DBs, especially when you are playing Brady, is a good pass rush (and a good run-stopping D can help make the opposing offense more one-dimensional).  Relying on blitz packages means Brady will have someone open and he can dink-and-dunk the ball down the field as well as anyone.  Baltimore's D was able to hit Brady without having to send extra blitzers, meaning they could pretty much account for covering all of his WRs.  The reason the Giants were able to beat the Pats in 2 super bowls was because they could put Brady on the ground with their front 4 and keep everyone else in coverage.  Until we can start getting consistent pressure on the opposing QB without having to rely on fancy blitz packages that require extra blitzers, I am afraid we will have a hard time stopping Brady.  We may have some in-house solutions (i.e., an improved Newsome, a healthy Mathis, a healthy Art Jones, etc.), but it sure would be nice to get another D-lineman that could collapse the pocket and get to the QB.

 

I was thinking he was implying he was a bum as a player. Which would not be true.

Adams was 'on the streets' for a while, getting very little interest from the market.  I not sure that he was ever a bad player, but he definitely had his best NFL season last year in Indy.  Could have just been a change of scenery, a scheme fit, or it could have been that he was helped to improve his game this late in his career by a good coaching staff.

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chad72 Ring of Honor

chad72

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-Turned Vontae Davis into a top 5 CB

-Greg Toler has been a solid #2 here

-Revived Darius Butler career in the slot

-Pulled Mike Adams off the street in June to the pro bowl

-Turned Marcus Burley into a late round pick for us

I see why the colts dont go out and spend big on DBs(Laron Landry) other than Vontae and they shouldn't based on Paganos resume. I trust that he can develop some young DB talent for us.

Is there and young DBs out of the draft or some random guys off the street that you would like to see Chuck Pagano work with or should work with?

 

Don't forget making Ladarius Webb a known name from an unknown commodity while a DC with the Ravens. His CBs do not give much YAC. However, if you get a guy like Landry and try to make something out of him, it is hard for any coach. Pagano is better off working with lesser names that are less "me" types, it seems like. That is why I am not worried about getting mid-tier guys for the secondary, I have confidence that Pagano will coach them up and the secondary will play better as a sum of parts than individuals.

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chad72 Ring of Honor

chad72

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But still cant revive them to beat the patriots. How was he able to give them fits in baltimore but not in indy?

 

Three words - front seven talent.

 

Grigson and Pagano are still searching for the right D-line/LB talent. Mathis, the previous regime leftover is still the best front 7 talent on the squad. RJF and Redding experiment has run its course. Time to get a guy like Terrance Knighton or Dan Williams.

 

It also helps when you have guys with attitude like Suggs and Ngata along with the talent to motivate the other guys, not to mention Ray Lewis and Ed Reed when Pagano was DC there.

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I say trade our extra 6th this year for Morris Claiborne.

 

He's 1000x more talented than anyone we'll get in the 6th.

 

See if Pags can get the potential out of him.

 

And while we're at it, trade our other 6th for Matt Kalil. Then we'll have three of the four busts from the top of the 2012 draft. If we can find a way to get Justin Blackmon and Mark Barron, we'll be in business.

 

Being serious, I think it would take more than a late 6th to get Morris Claiborne.

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BlueStallion

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Claiborne has yet to play up to his early first-round status.  Maybe Pagano can coach him up to achieve his full potential, or maybe not.   In his first three seasons with the Cowboys, Claiborne suffered a series of injuries and physical ailments that severely impacted his game and hindered his development.  Do the Colts want to risk signing another injury prone player?  This is an excerpt from his Wiki profile (with the injuries bolded by me):

 

The Dallas Cowboys entered the 2012 NFL Draft with cornerback as their top draft priority and traded up with the St. Louis Rams, moving from the 14th to the 6th position, in exchange for a third round draft choice, in order to select Claiborne in the first round.

 

Recovering from a surgically-repaired wrist, he missed minicamp and all of the OTAs, but was still named the starter at right cornerback. There were high expectations for him during his rookie season, as he finished with 55 tackles and 1 interception while suffering a number of minor injuries and being targeted by opposing teams in order to avoid Brandon Carr on the left side.

 

In 2013, he bulked up from 185 to 193 pounds and seemed motivated to play in the team's new 4-3 defense. His progress was slowed by a sprained knee he hurt in preseason that made him miss three weeks of training camp and later by a dislocated left shoulder he suffered in the season opener. Forced to wear a harness to stabilize the shoulder and play through the injury, he had poor performances and was passed on the depth chart by Orlando Scandrick after the third game.  He would also face additional adversity with the death of his father and from missing 6 games with a hamstring injury.

 

In 2014, he missed most of the preseason with knee tendinitis and an AC joint separation. He began the season as the starter at right cornerback with Scandrick suspended for the first two contests, but he returned to a reserve role after the third game even though he made the interception that clinched the win. When told of his demotion by the coaches on September 23, he walked out of the Cowboys' practice facility only to return later that night.  On September 28, he sustained a non-contact torn left patellar tendon against the New Orleans Saints and was placed on the injured reserve list after four games

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will426 Practice Squad

will426

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huge talent difference on D

Wasn't him I think much anyway they had Stars at all positions on D but Corner but you couldn't go deep because of Reed.. Lewis could stop the Run/blitz/cover..Ngata can stuff the run/pass rush and then Suggs on he edge and ofc Rex Ryan was there as well.

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southwest1

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So is Jim Irsay really the QB Whisperer? Since he took over for his departed father, the Colts have had Jim Harbaugh, Payton Manning, and now Andrew Luck

I can always count on SDS to slide a witty comment in between serious intellectual NFL discussions. You have a gift sir & I pray you never lose it.  haha  I thought it was funny anyway. 

 

You spelled Peyton's 1st name wrong, but I like you so I will let it slide. LOL! 

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