RG or RT?

[UKColt13]

Cherilus was playing hurt this year. I would expect him to be back to to his previous form or at least somewhere close next season.

RG would be huge for us. A road grader guard would be huge asset to the offence.

[throwing BBZ]

We are lucky to have Thornton because he is Solid and Cherilus will be fine if he comes back even half as good as he was his 1st year.





!

[Superman]

IMO it has to be RG because I think if Cherilus is healthy next season he'll be fine. I mean he was pretty good in his first season here. 

 

While overpaid in my opinion, Cherilus has shown he can play well when healthy

 

He has a degenerative knee condition, on top of several other ailments. It's hard to imagine that he'll ever be healthy again.

[Track Guy]

Yeah, I re-read it and I wasn't clear.

 

But assume we release Cherilus and save $4m against the cap in 2015. Does that change your perspective?

 

I don't think the free agent tackles are overly appealing. If we spent a high draft pick on a tackle, that's certainly an option. We have more depth at G but the FA market is also stronger at G.

[dw49]

That's kind of my thinking at this point. We have up to four guys who can compete at RG, and it's an easier position to plug in a rookie if necessary. RT is the weak point, and it's a harder position for a rookie to fill.

 

 

Considering you have Luck at QB , I think RT is a no brainer. 

 

1) The RT faces much better pass rushers than your RG . Plus at least Luck will pretty much always see the hit coming if the RG is beat. If the RT gets beat on an outside speed rush , he might not see that one coming .

 

2) Thornton has potential and could develop . Even Lance Louis played OK in those last 3 -4 games. He's signed through next year and would be a decent stop gap type guy. 

 

3) RT pays higher than RG , so thinking is it's a more important position ? 

 

I guess Reitz is a bit of a wild card here and where do they like him best .. RG or RT ?

 

Anyway , that guy Cherlius scared the dickens out of me in August and I agree with you.... bite the bullet and move on.

[OLD FAN MAN]

very athletic rg who can pull also you didn't ask but a more athletic lg who can pull and run block

[krunk]

I see Michael Roos from the Titans is going to be a unrestricted free agent next year.   I haven't watched him the past season or two but I know he was one of the better blocking right tackles at one point not too long ago.  He's 32 so I know he a little up there in age. He might be a good replacement for Cherilus. 

 

I think we should draft a versatile guard who can play tackle as well(unless we stick with the Hugh Thornton route).  From there we can bring in a FA tackle who isn't injured all the time.  Maybe even consider also drafting a young tackle to mold behind the FA.

[Superman]

very athletic rg who can pull also you didn't ask but a more athletic lg who can pull and run block

 

That's because Mewhort is the LG.

[21isSuperman]

He has a degenerative knee condition, on top of several other ailments. It's hard to imagine that he'll ever be healthy again.

Oh, wow.  I didn't know it was that bad

[Superman]

Considering you have Luck at QB , I think RT is a no brainer. 

 

1) The RT faces much better pass rushers than your RG . Plus at least Luck will pretty much always see the hit coming if the RG is beat. If the RT gets beat on an outside speed rush , he might not see that one coming .

 

2) Thornton has potential and could develop . Even Lance Louis played OK in those last 3 -4 games. He's signed through next year and would be a decent stop gap type guy. 

 

3) RT pays higher than RG , so thinking is it's a more important position ? 

 

I guess Reitz is a bit of a wild card here and where do they like him best .. RG or RT ?

 

Anyway , that guy Cherlius scared the dickens out of me in August and I agree with you.... bite the bullet and move on.

 

1) I know this might seem foreign to some, but I'm not all that worried about the pass protection. I think it will sort itself out, as long as we don't have bums out there. I think Luck and Pep have a lot of work to do as far as keeping the pressure off. But more importantly, I think that once we can run the football effectively, the offense becomes virtually unstoppable. However, yes, from a pass pro standpoint, RT is more critical.

 

2) Yup, lots more options and competition at RG.

 

3) Maybe, maybe not. It's definitely a more difficult position to play.

 

As for Reitz, I think he's best at guard, and serviceable at RT in a pinch. But he's one of our best guards, maybe our best guard. His issue is staying on the field. I think he's going to test the market, based on him taking so long to sign his RFA tender last year, but I don't know what his market is, exactly. I'd like to keep him, but he wouldn't be guaranteed any spot. 

[dw49]

1) I know this might seem foreign to some, but I'm not all that worried about the pass protection. I think it will sort itself out, as long as we don't have bums out there. I think Luck and Pep have a lot of work to do as far as keeping the pressure off. But more importantly, I think that once we can run the football effectively, the offense becomes virtually unstoppable. However, yes, from a pass pro standpoint, RT is more critical.

 

2) Yup, lots more options and competition at RG.

 

3) Maybe, maybe not. It's definitely a more difficult position to play.

 

As for Reitz, I think he's best at guard, and serviceable at RT in a pinch. But he's one of our best guards, maybe our best guard. His issue is staying on the field. I think he's going to test the market, based on him taking so long to sign his RFA tender last year, but I don't know what his market is, exactly. I'd like to keep him, but he wouldn't be guaranteed any spot. 

 

 

I also think Reitz walks for 2 reasons. One would be he's probably at least a bit miffed that he sometimes didn't get the starting nod when he was visibly better than the guy he played behind. Two would be the fact that he has to be devalued due to his injury history. That number will in all likelihood be smaller in his eyes than it will be in a teams eyes. These kind of situations often end up in the team making what is a fair offer and the player rejects it and test the markets. Then he'll sign a contract that is pretty much what he was offered in the first place. I'll be very surprised if he's a Colt next year.

[HtownColt]

Considering the scenario that Cherilus is cut, I'd still draft a RT early and get a free agent RG

[BOTT]

I've heard people say that RG is the least important position on the line.  A RT might be on an island in pass protection, but the RG could have the C or the RT helping him.  It would be nice to have a great pulling guard for the running game, but I would rather go with a great RT than a great  RG.  With that said, you asked which position upgrade would have the biggest impact on our offense.  I think our RG play was worse than our RT play, so I think a better RG would improve our offense more.  While overpaid in my opinion, Cherilus has shown he can play well when healthy

I have heard at least 3 ex linemen claim that RG is the most difficult of the interior positions.

[Superman]

Oh, wow.  I didn't know it was that bad

 

He had microfracture surgery in December of 2010. That's a procedure that's generally prescribed when an athlete has lost cartilage in his knee. Cartilage doesn't grow back. Generally, the next step is an arthritic knee. 

 

Some athletes have slowed down the arthritic condition with Regenokine or platelet-rich plasma therapy. Those procedures involve removing and treating a patient's blood in order to stimulate some of the healing properties, then reinjecting it in the knee. The benefits of those treatments is thought to be temporary, because, again, cartilage doesn't grow back. Cherilus had Regenokine in January of 2013.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthokine

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-body-that-heals-itself-20140217

 

Cherilus had a "minor scope" done on his knee a few weeks ago. For anyone else, that wouldn't alarm me that much. But a minor scope is usually one of three things, in order of seriousness, from least to most: 1) a removal of loose bodies -- which would probably mean more cartilage damage; 2) a meniscectomy, which is a trimming of the meniscus, a sponge-like shock absorber in the knee that works along with cartilage to protect the bone; or 3) a chondroplasty, which is a trimming and correction of actual cartilage. Any of those three procedures is a serious thing for someone who has previously had microfracture surgery and a Regenokine or PRP procedure.

 

Disclaimer: I am not an orthopedist, or any kind of expert in any of this stuff. I had a torn meniscus about four years ago, and had a meniscectomy and chondroplasty. I did a ton of research on this stuff, so I know a little more than most people might. I also have an older friend who had both operations in both knees, then a few years later, had to have two knee replacements. So I would just say I'm familiar with the issue.

 

To me, all that adds up to a serious knee issue for Cherilus. There's little doubt in my mind that it's a degenerative condition, and based on the trouble he had in 2014, I have little faith that he's going to ever be healthy enough to make it through a full season again. And he was only average, maybe a little better than average, in 2013 when he was "healthy." To me, it's time to move on. He has full benefits from the league for the rest of his life, and a pension. He can lose all that extra OL weight and last several more years before he needs to worry about a more serious operation. 

[esmort]

1) I know this might seem foreign to some, but I'm not all that worried about the pass protection. I think it will sort itself out, as long as we don't have bums out there. I think Luck and Pep have a lot of work to do as far as keeping the pressure off. But more importantly, I think that once we can run the football effectively, the offense becomes virtually unstoppable. However, yes, from a pass pro standpoint, RT is more critical.

 

2) Yup, lots more options and competition at RG.

 

3) Maybe, maybe not. It's definitely a more difficult position to play.

 

As for Reitz, I think he's best at guard, and serviceable at RT in a pinch. But he's one of our best guards, maybe our best guard. His issue is staying on the field. I think he's going to test the market, based on him taking so long to sign his RFA tender last year, but I don't know what his market is, exactly. I'd like to keep him, but he wouldn't be guaranteed any spot. 

 

I think there is a good chance Reitz comes back. I don't think any team is going to view him as a potential starter.  IMO his injury history is going to keep most teams from offering him much more than he would get from the Colt's.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

Cherilus was playing hurt this year. I would expect him to be back to to his previous form or at least somewhere close next season.

RG would be huge for us. A road grader guard would be huge asset to the offence.

 

 

Oh, wow.  I didn't know it was that bad

 

He had microfracture surgery in December of 2010. That's a procedure that's generally prescribed when an athlete has lost cartilage in his knee. Cartilage doesn't grow back. Generally, the next step is an arthritic knee. 

 

Some athletes have slowed down the arthritic condition with Regenokine or platelet-rich plasma therapy. Those procedures involve removing and treating a patient's blood in order to stimulate some of the healing properties, then reinjecting it in the knee. The benefits of those treatments is thought to be temporary, because, again, cartilage doesn't grow back.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthokine

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-body-that-heals-itself-20140217

 

Cherilus had a "minor scope" done on his knee a few weeks ago. For anyone else, that wouldn't alarm me that much. But a minor scope is usually one of three things, in order of seriousness, from least to most: 1) a removal of loose bodies -- which would probably mean more cartilage damage; 2) a meniscectomy, which is a trimming of the meniscus, a sponge-like shock absorber in the knee that works along with cartilage to protect the bone; or 3) a chondroplasty, which is a trimming and correction of actual cartilage. Any of those three procedures is a serious thing for someone who has previously had microfracture surgery and a Regenokine or PRP procedure.

 

Disclaimer: I am not an orthopedist, or any kind of expert in any of this stuff. I had a torn meniscus about four years ago, and had a meniscectomy and chondroplasty. I did a ton of research on this stuff, so I know a little more than most people might. I also have an older friend who had both operations in both knees, then a few years later, had to have two knee replacements. So I would just say I'm familiar with the issue.

 

To me, all that adds up to a serious knee issue for Cherilus. There's little doubt in my mind that it's a degenerative condition, and based on the trouble he had in 2014, I have little faith that he's going to ever be healthy enough to make it through a full season again. And he was only average, maybe a little better than average, in 2013 when he was "healthy." To me, it's time to move on. He has full benefits from the league for the rest of his life, and a pension. He can lose all that extra OL weight and last several more years before he needs to worry about a more serious operation. 

 

 

I didn't realize Cherilus was the highest paid RT in the NFL (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-faced-with-choices-as-bryan-bulaga-nears-free-agency-b99432596z1-290024481.html).  If we cut him and save $4mill in cap space -- I think Brian Bulaga is the most appealing UFA to me, though it might take a lot to lure him away from Green Bay.

 

I just want to post this article for those who think Cherilus is going to return to form and be like he was 2 years ago... and to add to some of Superman's points about how serious the injury is... http://www.indystar.com/story/colts-insider/2014/12/11/gosder-cherilus-colts-jadeveon-clowney-texans/20265145/

 

--- Some quotes from Cherilus in that article for those who don't want to read the whole thing (for the record, Jadeveon Clowney ended this season b/c of the same injury Cherilus had before he signed with us)

 

Cherilus is not optimistic about Clowney coming back.

 

"He's screwed," Cherilus, the Colts' starting right tackle said of Clowney. "His game is all about explosion. That's a problem. I'm out there dancing. I'm an offensive lineman. That's a different ballgame. He's screwed. I'm just being honest."

 

"The doctor said, 'I'd be surprised if you ever play again'" Cherilus recalled. "I was like, 'My God.' But I gave it a try. We did rehab for nine straight months. Three to five hours in the morning and then I'd come back and do some more later. Think about that."

 

"They told me I would be back in 12 months. I fought and came back in nine months. But it wasn't right. It set me back for another six weeks. You are going to deal with stuff for the rest of your career. Period."

 

 

----------

I hate to say it, but I think Cherilus should think about hanging them up.  I'm too lazy to go back and find a post saying he wouldn't leave money on the table, but by continuing to play in the NFL he is going to risk (as a 29-30 year old) his ability to walk or live a normal life for the rest of his life with the injury he has, especially with his size and job description.  What he should do, IMO, is retire, lose a lot of weight, and continue rehabbing that knee so he can walk when he is 35.  If he doesn't want to do that, I think the Colts should cut him or force him to renegotiate his contract -- hard fact of life, but this is a business and he shouldn't be the highest paid tackle in the league when odds are that he won't be able to make it through another season fully healthy.

[21isSuperman]

He had microfracture surgery in December of 2010. That's a procedure that's generally prescribed when an athlete has lost cartilage in his knee. Cartilage doesn't grow back. Generally, the next step is an arthritic knee. 

 

Some athletes have slowed down the arthritic condition with Regenokine or platelet-rich plasma therapy. Those procedures involve removing and treating a patient's blood in order to stimulate some of the healing properties, then reinjecting it in the knee. The benefits of those treatments is thought to be temporary, because, again, cartilage doesn't grow back. Cherilus had Regenokine in January of 2013.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthokine

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-body-that-heals-itself-20140217

 

Cherilus had a "minor scope" done on his knee a few weeks ago. For anyone else, that wouldn't alarm me that much. But a minor scope is usually one of three things, in order of seriousness, from least to most: 1) a removal of loose bodies -- which would probably mean more cartilage damage; 2) a meniscectomy, which is a trimming of the meniscus, a sponge-like shock absorber in the knee that works along with cartilage to protect the bone; or 3) a chondroplasty, which is a trimming and correction of actual cartilage. Any of those three procedures is a serious thing for someone who has previously had microfracture surgery and a Regenokine or PRP procedure.

 

Disclaimer: I am not an orthopedist, or any kind of expert in any of this stuff. I had a torn meniscus about four years ago, and had a meniscectomy and chondroplasty. I did a ton of research on this stuff, so I know a little more than most people might. I also have an older friend who had both operations in both knees, then a few years later, had to have two knee replacements. So I would just say I'm familiar with the issue.

 

To me, all that adds up to a serious knee issue for Cherilus. There's little doubt in my mind that it's a degenerative condition, and based on the trouble he had in 2014, I have little faith that he's going to ever be healthy enough to make it through a full season again. And he was only average, maybe a little better than average, in 2013 when he was "healthy." To me, it's time to move on. He has full benefits from the league for the rest of his life, and a pension. He can lose all that extra OL weight and last several more years before he needs to worry about a more serious operation. 

I knew he had a history of injury problems, but I didn't know they were that bad and so much of it focused on his knees.  Thanks for all that info

[Shepman]

I say based on build you move Mewhort to RT and upgrade LG. It is possible Thomas fills that spot but I doubt it with 2 IRs.

[The Peytonator]

I think it's obvious that it's RT, especially with Cherilus likely being gone next year. Lance Louis, disregarding his terrible first couple games early in the year, was probably our best RG. Thornton was about average, but is very athletic and hella strong....his arrow is definitely pointing up. I'd like to see Reitz re-signed, the guy is just a good football player and can be solid at 4 different positions. Draft a RT later, and let Ulrick John and the new guy battle it out. If both guys suck we'd still have Old Reliable Reitz. 

[Narcosys]

RG is the key. Pressure up the middle is a killer for Luck. He's so much better when he can step into his throws. Like others have said, the RG helps the C and RT.

That and it's much needed our run game

[1959Colts]

RT

[OLD FAN MAN]

I've heard people say that RG is the least important position on the line.  A RT might be on an island in pass protection, but the RG could have the C or the RT helping him.  It would be nice to have a great pulling guard for the running game, but I would rather go with a great RT than a great  RG.  With that said, you asked which position upgrade would have the biggest impact on our offense.  I think our RG play was worse than our RT play, so I think a better RG would improve our offense more.  While overpaid in my opinion, Cherilus has shown he can play well when healthy

and we play 2 games a season against jj watts, a great rg would help against him

[cbear]

Assuming Cherilos play this season was due to injuries and he's fully recovered, I think he'll be fine at RT.  So I go with RG.  I was really hoping Thornton would be the guy there, but I don't think he's showing much improvement at all.  Louis is just serviceable.

[Superman]

Assuming Cherilos play this season was due to injuries and he's fully recovered, I think he'll be fine at RT.  So I go with RG.  I was really hoping Thornton would be the guy there, but I don't think he's showing much improvement at all.  Louis is just serviceable.

 

What if Cherilus is gone? Does that change your answer?

[USAFHoosier]

I would have to go with RG since it helps the running game more and allows Luck to step up into the pocket in the passing game.

[Esquire59]

REITZ

[Carlos Danger]

I would prefer the RG, under the conditions specified. Any semblance of consistent reliability on the right side would be huge at either position, though.

The RT needs to come from the draft, IMO. Mostly because decent FA tackles are expensive and Cherilus still has a (relatively) cap friendly year left in his contract. Assuming he comes back healthy and plays well, we can groom his young replacement, cut Gosder after next season and (hopefully) have a cheap stud RT for a couple years.

Really they could kill two birds with one stone if they draft a T (a la Jack Mewhort) and kick him in to RG for the season... Even in this scenario I'd like to see an average/above average RG signed in FA as bust insurance...

[Carlos Danger]

If I were to assume that Cherilus isn't coming back healthy or just isn't coming back I'd change my opinion...

We would still have to get OL help from the draft, but I'd rather plug any number of our remaining guys into the RG spot than RT...

[DougDew]

Generally speaking, RT. 

 

I guess I have to think about this given the current roster. 

 

Reitz is a FA I believe, and Cherilous is injured, and may be chronically, so finding security at RT is very important this off season. 

 

Frankly, I think Reitz will want starters money, and I think the Colts should pay it (not RT money, however).  I think that he has shown that he is capable of playing either G position and some RT too.  If the weakest part of the Oline is Reitz, then the line would be very good, IMO.

 

I also think that Mewhort would be a better RT than LG.  He played well at LG because he is a very good, versatile, OLineman....but I don't think that his natural position is LG.

 

The NFL FA class does not look good for ILBs, so I'm trying to fashion a way to address the OL without spending a top three draft choice on it. 

 

So I'm thinking putting Reitz at LG, Mewhort at RT, and signing a good RG in FA, and drafting another after round 4 to compete with Thornton and Harrison.  I'd rather place my bets that Reitz and Mewhort will play well rather than trusting that Thornton or a high round rookie will play well.

[pgt_rob]

RG is more important in my opinion. That seems to be the spot in which every game it's a new guy starting. Definitely not good. At RT, we at least have Cherilus who has been pretty good except for later in the season battling injuries, but honestly, he has been good for us when healthy. Although, our whole O-Line got manhandled by NE for most of the game so... They seem to be our major challenge when it comes to going to the next level, getting by them.

[krunk]

Wondering how all this shakes out if we keep Donald Thomas and he makes it through training camp?

[ColtStronger]

Let's assume that we have our LT, LG and C positions established for 2015, with Castonzo, Mewhort and Holmes. And let's assume that we set out to upgrade either the RG or RT position via free agency, but only one or the other. Which position would you choose to address?

 

Also, let's say we're getting an average to above average player at one of those positions, on an affordable contract, and we expect him to be healthy. 

 

Which position upgrade would have the most impact on our offense? How would our reserve/competition look at the other position?

 

Just curious what others think.

I say RG, because Thomas has proven he can't stay healthy and we've wasted so much money on him.  Time to cut our losses.  Thornton should stick around as depth, IMO.  I think with Holmes just taking over the C position he may need a little help coming into his role.  I'm very uneasy about Cherilus, because he does have the talent, but his injury scares me.  He could very well be the same player we saw towards the end of last season, for the rest of his career.  What makes me feel better, is that Reitz can come in and weather the storm, also we can put Allen over there to help block on the end. 

[Superman]

Generally speaking, RT.

I guess I have to think about this given the current roster.

Reitz is a FA I believe, and Cherilous is injured, and may be chronically, so finding security at RT is very important this off season.

Frankly, I think Reitz will want starters money, and I think the Colts should pay it (not RT money, however). I think that he has shown that he is capable of playing either G position and some RT too. If the weakest part of the Oline is Reitz, then the line would be very good, IMO.

I also think that Mewhort would be a better RT than LG. He played well at LG because he is a very good, versatile, OLineman....but I don't think that his natural position is LG.

The NFL FA class does not look good for ILBs, so I'm trying to fashion a way to address the OL without spending a top three draft choice on it.

So I'm thinking putting Reitz at LG, Mewhort at RT, and signing a good RG in FA, and drafting another after round 4 to compete with Thornton and Harrison. I'd rather place my bets that Reitz and Mewhort will play well rather than trusting that Thornton or a high round rookie will play well.

What kind of contract do you think Reitz would take?

[ColtStronger]

Not an option. Assume Cherilus is gone.

Why do you assume that?  I remember hearing comments about the injury being very difficult to recover from a long term standpoint, but I'm just curious why you think the Colts wouldn't give him another chance.  They love giving out second and even third chances it seems.

[Superman]

Why do you assume that? I remember hearing comments about the injury being very difficult to recover from a long term standpoint, but I'm just curious why you think the Colts wouldn't give him another chance. They love giving out second and even third chances it seems.

I posted earlier about the gravity of his situation. Just from my far away perspective. You can scroll up to read it.

As for why they would want to release him rather than let him go through OTAs and camp, is because if he gets hurt again before the season starts, you have to pay him for 2015.

[ColtStronger]

RT and it isn't that close, the position has considerably more value for a reason. A quality bookend coupled with a decent centre will negate the errors of the RG much more than vice versa.

 

Plus, there are far more genuine pass-pushing threats lined up at LOLB and LDE (in a 4-3) than DT or LDE (in a 3-4).

You also have to keep in mind Mewhort is in his 2nd year and not fully developed, and Holmes hasn't even played a full season, so he has things to work on as well.  I agree the T position is much more valuable, but I think we could get at least half of a good season out of Cherilus again, and perhaps have Reitz in the second half, if needed.  Draft a T this year but get a great G in FA who is ready to play.  Let the RT get some reps in practice, next season and ease him into the roll the following season. 

[ColtStronger]

Then why would he be at vet minimum?

They could either force him to restructure or cut him.  I don't know that he would, but it isn't impossible.  I think he would have a hard time finding a job if we cut him tho.

[ColtStronger]

Personally, I don't see why we have to choose one or another.  I think both are major needs, that should be addressed.  Don't want to take a chance on Cherilus?  That's fine, cut him and sign somebody via FA, with the money we save by cutting Gosder.  When it comes to a Guard, we should cut D. Thomas, and either pickup a G 1st round in the draft, somebody who is ready to play now, or have a replacement via FA.  I think Holmes will be fine moving forward.  Mewhort should be better next season, and if we were to get a good Guard, I think the OL would be just fine.

[Yoshinator]

You definitely go after the RT. Most of the backup lineman we have can play guard (Louis, John, Thornton, Holmes can play Guard). We need a RT that can hold down the Right side for 10-15 years. If we can get La'el Collins, he'd be better than anyone we could get at RG. We need a day 1 starter at RT, the RG position can be played decently by a few players on our line, we don't have any dependable tackles other than Costanzo and sometimes Reitz. We can play Mewhort at RT, but that's not ideal.

[lollygagger8]

RT all day.

 

I'm not a Cherilus fan. His history of being up one year, down the next is just too inconsistent for how much we are paying him. 

 

With Reitz, Thornton, Louis, Harrison, and personally I think we should keep Shipley, we are ok at RG. I don't think Thomas is a viable starter either.