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Kenny Moore absent from OTAs, wants new contract


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Why can't these players realize we have a loaded team now. I hope Ty see's that too. Win that ring and you have 100's of avenues. Kenny Moore just needs to play in 2022. I have to say I am disappointed in him right now because I look at him as a leader and he is good. He is being paid well. My gas tank is waiting scratch off season 3 GIF

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I am about making money but Jesus if you give me 7 mill or 9 mill who gives a rats behind. I would rather make 5 mill over 3 years win a ring, be known as a champ and just relax in a 1 mill dollar house in a nice area. These dudes that just want to make money don't love the game. Guess. This dude who loves the game will quit watching if this crap keeps up. Believe me. Many follow me. I have a friend that has watched since the 70's, and he didn't watch 1 snap last year because of players complaining about money and politics too.

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It's bizarre how people look at the "business" aspect in a vacuum and completely dissociate it with the type of business this is, which is a team sport that is predicated on winning of which is limited by the cap, and is funded by the fans. All of this is connected, thus it is weird to see people dismiss fan sentiment as nothing but frivolous drivel.  There are multiple perspectives, needs and desires in this situation that are in flux. (team, player, fans).

Kenny Moore isn't a free agent so he shouldnt be compared to one (saw people comparing the situation to Bradbury). It all matters: the contract, the precident it sets to negotiate with players who hold out, the teams cap,  and player morale, which affects team culture. This should all be taken in to consideration when looking at the situation objectively. 

 

I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but does he deserve more money?  Should the Colts reward such behavior? 

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Just now, Tsarquise said:

It's bizarre how people look at the "business" aspect in a vacuum and completely dissociate it with the type of business this is, which is a team sport that is predicated on winning of which is limited by the cap, and is funded by the fans. All of this is connected, thus it is weird to see people dismiss fan sentiment as nothing but frivolous drivel.  There are multiple perspectives, needs and desires in this situation that are in flux. (team, player, fans).

Kenny Moore isn't a free agent so he shouldnt be compared to one (saw people comparing the situation to Bradbury). It all matters: the contract, the precident it sets to negotiate with players who hold out, the teams cap,  and player morale, which affects team culture. This should all be taken in to consideration when looking at the situation objectively. 

 

I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but does he deserve more money?  Should the Colts reward such behavior? 

Moore has like 2 years on his contract. This is ridiculous. Very disappointing. The game is going down hill when you have players who are just good (not very good or great) trying dictate if they make 10 mill or 8 mill a year. Give me a freakin break. Go play for a loser like the Texans and make your extra 2 mill, I could give a damn.

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3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Understood….    As for Kenny, two issues.   First, he has zero guaranteed dollars.  He’s exposed playing in a violent sport where the longer you play, the more likely you are to get hurt. 
 

Second, the cornerback market has exploded, even for zone corners.  So by the current market, KM is badly under paid.  Even coming off his poorest year, if he were a free agent, he’d be signed to a larger contract.   
 

I think there is a path for both sides to take.  I’m curious to see how this plays out.   Sorry for any other misunderstanding.  

No need to be sorry.  Fully understood what you were saying.  I would agree with meeting in the middle, and me personally would throw 12-13mil at him to make him happy.  If that is not enough, I would have to walk away unfortunately

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15 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

It’ll be fine they will get things figured out.  The fact he showed up, even if just working on the side, tells me this isn’t going to be a major issue.

Yup. Low key at the moment. Could heat up though.

I'm hoping it's more about lack of guarantees, than raise/extend. 

If not, and if it turns ugly, I think we'll be fine too. 

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19 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

That's Weak. You either show up and practice with team OR YOU DON'T.  LOL

 

I think it's good that he's there. New scheme is being installed. And he struggled last season. OTAs are all no contact, so he's not missing much, and at least there to soak in the scheme installment. 

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I think it's good that he's there. New scheme is being installed. And he struggled last season. OTAs are all no contact, so he's not missing much, and at least there to soak in the scheme installment. 

 

Yeah I know it's good for the team and I doubt any consequences for him either way. What I meant was it's  a weak gesture on his part. He's mad about his contract but shows up anyway and works out on the side..

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12 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Yeah I know it's good for the team and I doubt any consequences for him either way. What I meant was it's  a weak gesture on his part. He's mad about his contract but shows up anyway and works out on the side..

 

The situation is just strange to me. 2 years left, and coming off a poor year. 

 

And I'd assume his agent would simply call the FO to make his feelings known, instead of going directly into a public display. If that didn't happen (a call first), it should have.

 

If the call happened, then this would be seen as an escalation (meaning he didn't like the response). Mandatory minicamp is June 7-9, so we won't have to wait to long to see if this gets resolved quickly or turns uglier. Missing OTAs is one thing, missing mandatory MCs is another, and likely results in fines. 

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5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Thanks.   Appreciate the good info.  
 

I don’t know if you saw an earlier post of mine?   I’d offer this compromise….  I’d fully guarantee Moore’s last two years, so he’s protected for his final $15 mill.   I would not offer any new money or more years.   And I’d tell him this can be re-visited in one year when he has only one more year left in his deal.   I think this is the path to compromise.  I don’t know if KM would accept this, but I’d hope so.  

If you are offering him fully guaranteed money for the next two years(and if that's what he wants), you might as well give him an extra non-guaranteed year or two. But then we will know what will happen when those two guaranteed years expire... he will do another hold out. So in essence the Colts will never be able to profit from giving him more money in advance. But I guess, if he has the leverage he should use it while he has it, so :dunno: 

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7 minutes ago, stitches said:

If you are offering him fully guaranteed money for the next two years(and if that's what he wants), you might as well give him an extra non-guaranteed year or two. But then we will know what will happen when those two guaranteed years expire... he will do another hold out. So in essence the Colts will never be able to profit from giving him more money in advance. But I guess, if he has the leverage he should use it while he has it, so :dunno: 


Moore doesn’t want two more unprotected  years.   He wants a new contract because in a multiyear deal the first 2-3 years are typically protected.   Protecting the last two years without adding any more years is the compromise.  
 

Moore is getting some protection without getting more years or dollars.  But he’s getting a promise that we will revisit this in one year.   The implication is that he has to have a very good 22 season if he wants to rework his deal in terms that he wants.  The team gets this resolved for one year that doesn’t cost them a single new dollar.   This is as close to win-win as I can come up with.  
 

I don’t know want winners and losers.   I don’t want a big shift in leverage or to have anyone feel like they didn’t get enough.   I want each side to feel like they got just enough.   I don’t see the upside of two unprotected years.  Why do that?   It would only make Moore feel disrespected.   I’m trying to lower the temperature, not to raise it.  

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12 hours ago, luv_pony_express said:

Who said anything about “fully”?  I didn’t.

 

What I said is that NFL contracts usually contain a certain amount of dollars that are guaranteed.  A team most certainly cannot just refuse to pay them…whether a player is cut or not.  They can pass them along to another team in a trade, of course.  There are options.

 

But, importantly, those options are reflected either in the player’s contract or in the CBA, if not both.

 

The point is:  BOTH sides to a contract are bound by law to honor the terms of legally permissible contracts.  And, frankly, it shouldn’t even require legal compulsion.  That’s just part of being a responsible citizen.

 

I cannot and will not support what Kenny is doing here.  I love the guy - great player, great person.  But even great people can make bush league moves.  And that’s what this is.


First….  I suspect you might be a lawyer.   Your post is written as one.  
 

Second, sorry, but it’s over dramatic nonsense.   
 

Third, this story is closer to a nothing burger than it is something to worry about.  Kenny Moore is IN camp.   Most players in Moore’s position often do not show up, and teams often say they were caught off guard.   None of that happened.   Kenny and the team are good at this point. 
 

Fourth….  Notice Frank said nothing negative about Moore or the situation.   This is yet the latest saga where the team is NOT publicly upset, but a bunch of fans here are…    “I can not and will not….”    Puh-leeze,  no one is keeping score.   Why you choose to be outraged when the team is not is one of those mysteries known only by you. 
 

Fifth….  Situations like this happen to all 32 teams.   It’s a yearly part of the NFL.  No team is immune.  All things considered, both sides are handling this pretty well.  Could this turn ugly?  Sure, but I wouldn’t expect it.  I think Ballard and Moore will find common ground and compromise. 
 

I’m sorry we see this so differently, I think you’re a good poster here,  but we clearly do. 

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7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


Thanks.   But those are the 2021 numbers.   What about 20 and 19 and 18.   I’m pretty sure KM wasn’t nearly as bad.  21 was his worst season.   He had three excellent seasons before that. 

As you know nfl is a what have you done for me lately league. Kenny Moore is always high in tackles for a corner which can be said to be a good thing and a bad thing. 
 

2020 - targets 93 tied for 5th most   Completions allowed 67 6th most 

 

2019 - targets 51 tied for 81st

completions allowed 39 tied for 54th

 

2018 - targets 88 15th most

completions allowed 64 tied for 3rd most 

 

outside of one year Kenny has been pretty bad in coverage 

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14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Dear God,  these rants are embarrassing.   Moore is one of the top nickel corners in the game.   No, he didn’t have a great year last year.   He also had injuries and Covid.  And the market for corners has exploded.  Did you just see what Alexander in GB got?   $21m per.   
 

Kenny will likely get some more guaranteed money despite your moral outrage and indignation.   Good grief. 

Nickel corner , Alexander plays outside and can actual cover

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The more I think about this..... The more I get it, and think I might have a solution.

 

Kenny is debatably slightly underpaid (still paid pretty well for a slot cb imo) at 27th cb overall.  

 

He has two years left on his deal.  Does he want a LONGER deal? Or does he want more guaranteed money? ( It's been all paid out under current deal)

 

I think CB would be ok converting some base into bonus money for KM.... If the guarantee is what KM wants...  I think this is what I'm hoping is the issue and solution.

 

If it's a straight up new deal?  Eh.... That's tricky..... If there was one year left? I think I'd be more ok with it if I were CB..... That said, I don't think this is a huge issue yet, and can be squashed fairly easily if both sides want it, which all indications are.....as yet 

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1 hour ago, Jackie Daytona said:

The more I think about this..... The more I get it, and think I might have a solution.

 

Kenny is debatably slightly underpaid (still paid pretty well for a slot cb imo) at 27th cb overall.  

 

He has two years left on his deal.  Does he want a LONGER deal? Or does he want more guaranteed money? ( It's been all paid out under current deal)

 

I think CB would be ok converting some base into bonus money for KM.... If the guarantee is what KM wants...  I think this is what I'm hoping is the issue and solution.

 

If it's a straight up new deal?  Eh.... That's tricky..... If there was one year left? I think I'd be more ok with it if I were CB..... That said, I don't think this is a huge issue yet, and can be squashed fairly easily if both sides want it, which all indications are.....as yet 


JMO, but I don’t think this is about guaranteed money. His cap hits aren’t very high and it’s not like they are going to cut him this year. 
 

I think he wants a much higher AAA, and the gtd money that comes with it. 

He was just on a PB roster with a CB group that included Howard, who gets $18 M AAV and JC Jackson, who just got nearly $17M AAV as a FA.
 

Those CBs got an AAV that is more than 2x his contract AAV and nearly 3x his AAV the next couple of years. And he’s actually a bit younger than them.

 

So even if his PB nod was a bit questionable (and I think it was), I get where he is coming from. And I never begrudge a player trying to get paid.

 

But I also think he is gassed up here. Because he’s not those players. He can’t do what they do.
 

It is very hard to find shutdown outside CBs. It is not nearly as difficult to find nickel CBs who can excel in zone. 

 

Even Mathieu, who has made multiple AP teams, never got paid like those guys. His highest AAV was $12M. And Moore isn’t on that level. 

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There are some wide opinions in this thread

 

IMHO.... worth 2 cents ...... maybe

 

These players HAVE to try to get as much as they can. This doesnt make them bad people.

 

I would say 99.9% of us DONT have 325 lb guys landing on us....  The threat of career ending injury is crazy high

You are literally (overused word BTW, but applicable) ONE play from being DONE in the NFL

 

I did however burn myself on the coffee maker the other day.....

 

The reality is that you need really good players to be successful in the NFL.  

 

You do what you can to maintain the top players, and not overpay to the position.

 

If you sign a top player to a long term deal, and that contract becomes significantly lower than what other players are making,

you have a tough decision as a business.  Sometimes you have to give in.... sometimes you cant

 

Its a tough business

 

 

 

  

 

 

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Funny thing. The media, coaches, fellow players, and front office must not really understand how bad this is. They have to cut Kenny for being a bad boy. We want only honorable men on our team. Let's go to the North pole and find some good honorable men who will honor what they signed their names to. And no, it doesn't matter if they're allowed to negotiate, we want honor! :D 

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7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

The situation is just strange to me. 2 years left, and coming off a poor year. 

 

And I'd assume his agent would simply call the FO to make his feelings known, instead of going directly into a public display. If that didn't happen (a call first), it should have.

 

If the call happened, then this would be seen as an escalation (meaning he didn't like the response). Mandatory minicamp is June 7-9, so we won't have to wait to long to see if this gets resolved quickly or turns uglier. Missing OTAs is one thing, missing mandatory MCs is another, and likely results in fines. 

 

Reich said the team was aware of his position. I am guessing the agent leaked it to the local media. But they are as soft as Charmin, so I am not really sure why. 

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18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'd be fine with the Colts saying 'no, we'll talk after this season.' I don't know if it's the best way to handle it, but I'd get it. Every team wants to avoid setting a precedent of renegotiating a player contract with two years remaining. And in Kenny's case, they showed good faith in extending him after two years. It's not like they've hard-lined him and other players, they're generally pro player in contract situations.

 

But I absolutely get where Kenny is coming from, and it's simple business. It's also something the Colts have not been affected by very much.

You saved me from having to post all that. With 2 years left I think Kenny is being a little selfish here. I like him but right now this is showing his team that hes not ALL IN with his teammates IMHO. If I was Kenny I would do everything I can to prove myself this year and then talk about money in the off-season. 

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1 hour ago, MikeCurtis said:

There are some wide opinions in this thread

 

IMHO.... worth 2 cents ...... maybe

 

These players HAVE to try to get as much as they can. This doesnt make them bad people.

 

I would say 99.9% of us DONT have 325 lb guys landing on us....  The threat of career ending injury is crazy high

You are literally (overused word BTW, but applicable) ONE play from being DONE in the NFL

 

I did however burn myself on the coffee maker the other day.....

 

The reality is that you need really good players to be successful in the NFL.  

 

You do what you can to maintain the top players, and not overpay to the position.

 

If you sign a top player to a long term deal, and that contract becomes significantly lower than what other players are making,

you have a tough decision as a business.  Sometimes you have to give in.... sometimes you cant

 

Its a tough business

 

 

 

  

 

 

Moore has already made 20+ mill in the league - He's set for life. Don't act like a career-ending injury would ruin his life and put him on the streets.

  If he got a career-ending injury I would feel very sorry for him for not being able to play the game he loves and we all love watching him play. I won't feel sorry for him not getting paid, because he's already gotten paid. Moore isn't being cheated out of anything.

 

I have no problem at all with Moore seeking more money or guarantees. It's well within his rights and I've never disputed that. I do however disagree he's worth more money than his current contract is worth. He's already the highest paid slot-corner and he's purely a slot-corner.

 

What I'm saying is this. Putting up a made up scenario here:

 

Players A and B sign a contract worth up to 30 mill over 5 years.

5 mill signing bonus

15 mill in guarantees

Up to an additional 10 mill in incentives

 

They structure their contracts differently:

 

PLAYER A

5 mill signing bonus

Yr1 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr2 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr3 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr4 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr5 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Up to 30 mill total

 

PLAYER B

5 mill signing bonus

Yr1 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr2 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr3 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr4 - up to 5 mill in incentives

Yr5 - up to 5 mill in incentives

Up to 30 mill total

 

At year 4 Player B says he wants more guarantees in case he gets injured. As a GM I'd say "Well you front-loaded your contract - you've already been paid now it's time to earn your next contract. Come back next year and we'll have a look at it."

And what if either wanted more money? Well I'd look at their performance versus similar players and compare contracts. In this case I don't feel Moore has out-performed his contract. Time to go to work. Ball out. Get paid next year.

 

I just don't feel Moore has any leverage here. 2 years left on a deal that already made him the highest paid at his position. Coming off a down year where he had league lows in some statistics. Had a part in us losing out on the playoffs. NOT saying he CAN'T seek to get paid again. At all. I just feel he's paid what he's worth currently.

 

Now, do I feel athletes get paid too much in general? Abso-****ing-lutely I do. But that's honestly a separate issue and I should'nt have brought it up.

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15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

So anyone that puts stock in a legally binding contract has always been a rabid fan or bitter non-sensical... That's probably the worst take I've ever seen from you. 

 

You say you're not asking anyone to feel sorry for him, but your case reads like he's a victim and is being mistreated somehow. 

 

You're flippant glossing over of his performance drop is like a Fred Astaire dance step, which looked like an attempt to repackage into another reason why he should hold out lol... come on man.

 

Overall, I'd be just fine is they simply guaranteed his existing contract. But a raise or an extension right now IMO would be silly. And an early (2 years left) holdout like this, should it translate into that, would be bad precedent. I guess Taylor, Pittman, and Paye should hold out too?

 

You have a very poor understanding of my position, to the point that I'm convinced you haven't at all paid attention to what I've said so far.

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Maybe on the bottom of the contract where Chris Ballard & Kenny signed it, it has a disclaimer in parenthesis stating:

(This contract is not binding if henceforth the player's agent changes)   :cash:

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I seem to also remember Moore venting about being a PB snub in 2020 and being very critical of the PB voting process the past two years, even calling it rigged.

 

But now that he made the PB and got that respect, the contract is the next step. So this "dispute" is really just the natural evolution of the disrespect Moore has been talking about the past two years.

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2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Reich said the team was aware of his position. I am guessing the agent leaked it to the local media. But they are as soft as Charmin, so I am not really sure why. 

Like I said, the whole thing just seams strange to me.

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10 minutes ago, krunk said:

You dont usually see Colt players holdout so its a little strange. Dont knock a man for trying to secure his bag though.

Well, it's not a holdout until it mandatory. 

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1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

Moore has already made 20+ mill in the league - He's set for life. Don't act like a career-ending injury would ruin his life and put him on the streets.

Respectfully,

 

Act like?

 

Act like what?

 

YOU added some color and stretched points that I didnt make  .   I didnt say the guy was going to end up on the street.

 

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

  If he got a career-ending injury I would feel very sorry for him for not being able to play the game he loves and we all love watching him play. I won't feel sorry for him not getting paid, because he's already gotten paid. Moore isn't being cheated out of anything.

 

I have no problem at all with Moore seeking more money or guarantees. It's well within his rights and I've never disputed that. I do however disagree he's worth more money than his current contract is worth. He's already the highest paid slot-corner and he's purely a slot-corner.

 

I am making a general overall statement, that there is an added weight of injury that we dont see in the "civilian" world

 

I have no idea if the Colts will do anything here.  THEY have the cash. They choose to spend it as they see fit.  We have had people that have left the Colts for more money

 

If THEY think that Moore is worth more, this year, then they get to choose that......  Im just a fan on the sideline

 

The danger I see, that if the team starts to negotiate 2 years early, there will be a LONG line of players wanting to change contracts which would be a mess.

 

If it were me, Id start the dialog saying NO CHANGES until we get in the last year of a contract

 

The only case would be a late pick that gets 300K a year, on a 3 year rookie deal.  If they became a pro bowler, Id consider doing something earlier than 1 year

 

 

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

 

What I'm saying is this. Putting up a made up scenario here:

 

Players A and B sign a contract worth up to 30 mill over 5 years.

5 mill signing bonus

15 mill in guarantees

Up to an additional 10 mill in incentives

 

They structure their contracts differently:

 

PLAYER A

5 mill signing bonus

Yr1 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr2 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr3 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr4 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Yr5 - 3 mill guaranteed + up to 2 mill in incentives

Up to 30 mill total

 

PLAYER B

5 mill signing bonus

Yr1 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr2 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr3 - 5 mill guaranteed + 0 in incentives

Yr4 - up to 5 mill in incentives

Yr5 - up to 5 mill in incentives

Up to 30 mill total

 

At year 4 Player B says he wants more guarantees in case he gets injured. As a GM I'd say "Well you front-loaded your contract - you've already been paid now it's time to earn your next contract. Come back next year and we'll have a look at it."

And what if either wanted more money? Well I'd look at their performance versus similar players and compare contracts. In this case I don't feel Moore has out-performed his contract. Time to go to work. Ball out. Get paid next year.

 

I just don't feel Moore has any leverage here. 2 years left on a deal that already made him the highest paid at his position. Coming off a down year where he had league lows in some statistics. Had a part in us losing out on the playoffs. NOT saying he CAN'T seek to get paid again. At all. I just feel he's paid what he's worth currently.

 

Now, do I feel athletes get paid too much in general? Abso-****ing-lutely I do. But that's honestly a separate issue and I should'nt have brought it up.

We agree on most of these points

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14 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Respectfully,

 

Act like?

 

Act like what?

 

YOU added some color and stretched points that I didnt make  .   I didnt say the guy was going to end up on the street.

 

 

I am making a general overall statement, that there is an added weight of injury that we dont see in the "civilian" world

 

I have no idea if the Colts will do anything here.  THEY have the cash. They choose to spend it as they see fit.  We have had people that have left the Colts for more money

 

If THEY think that Moore is worth more, this year, then they get to choose that......  Im just a fan on the sideline

 

The danger I see, that if the team starts to negotiate 2 years early, there will be a LONG line of players wanting to change contracts which would be a mess.

 

If it were me, Id start the dialog saying NO CHANGES until we get in the last year of a contract

 

The only case would be a late pick that gets 300K a year, on a 3 year rookie deal.  If they became a pro bowler, Id consider doing something earlier than 1 year

 

 

We agree on most of these points

Didn’t mean to put words in your mouth here. My interpretation of “The threat of career ending injury is crazy high

You are literally (overused word BTW, but applicable) ONE play from being DONE in the NFL” was just you thought he needed more guarantees to secure his future. My point is he’s already secured his future. :thmup:
 

Also, I vehemently disagree football players face higher risks of serious injury than so many others do in their professional lives. We’ll have to disagree on that. 
 

Of course it’s the Colts decision and only their decision on what to do about this. What I and so many others here are doing is stating an opinion on the topic. Noone is telling or demanding the Colts do anything one way or the other. At least I hope not, they’ll be severely disappointed if they think they have a say on the matter. :D

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