Kenny Moore absent from OTAs, wants new contract

[stitches]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're boiling a player who's been pretty good for the team for several years down to his worst moments, and I think that's pretty sucky.

 

Accountability should be expressed by requiring players to compete and perform, and when they are incapable of doing so, they are no longer with the team. Accountability means 'we were bad at LT, and now we have a new LT.' It means 'we didn't have a good pass rush, and now we have new pass rushers.' 'Our QB held us back, and now we have a new QB.' 

 

Accountability does not mean get rid of any player who disappointed you in any remote way throughout the season, and slam the door in the face of anyone who wasn't a superstar. Kenny Moore had some bad games; Carson Wentz was apparently unresponsive to coaching. They don't even belong in the same conversation.

OK, let me ask you directly then - what should the Colts do with Kenny Moore? And does this vibe with whatever version of accountability you want the Colts to instill? Keep in mind - his whole season last year and his final 2 games. He wants a new contract with more money now. What do YOU want us to do? How much more than he's making now are you willing to give him? Lets say he wants 15M a year? Do you give it to him? What's the absolute maximum you would give him? But again ... keep in mind that accountability thing and the way he played last year. 

 

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

Your response is why his standing as a teammate is relevant. You're burying him for trying to get a new contract, when he's exercising his collectively bargained choice to not practice in OTAs in the mildest way possible. You won't acknowledge that this is simply the business, and his decision in this matter is the only way a player in his position -- still in his physical prime, two years left on his deal but no guaranteed money -- can maximize his earning potential. 

 

Like I said, I'm fine with the Colts telling him no, let's talk next year. I'm also fine with him not being happy about it, and not risking his earning potential in non-mandatory practices. When we get into mandatory activities, I'd feel a little differently, because he didn't have a great season last year, but I still understand his position and I think his argument that he's underpaid is reasonable.

 

Either way, it's the business. And fans saying stuff like 'get your butt on the field and honor your contract' is incredibly narrow minded, and oblivious to the factors involved. That would be true even if Kenny Moore wasn't a good player.

 

Oh I acknowledge it's just business and I acknowledge it's his right to do it. Hell, contractually he can just go home and not do anything... even more - when he's required to be here, he can stay home and risk being fined by the Colts. That too is within his rights. I FULLY acknowledge that. This is NOT the question - the question is - do you think he's warranted in doing this? Do you think he deserves a new contract after last year(or if you want, include the last 2 years)? How much do you think is reasonable for the Colts to pay him after the way he played last year? 

[Solid84]

36 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

This argument isn't the one to make though. Sure, plenty of people are risking their health for a lot less but do you want to watch a welder play football? There is a value that the society has placed on this sport, and there are not many who get to the highest level. THIS is the highest level that only few make it to, so yeah, they get paid more.

Want to argue about it? Then place higher value on welding and trash collecting and nursing and all those other tough jobs that good folks are doing. Otherwise, the young man is arguing to get paid fair value, that's it.

 

Are they privileged to play football? Depends who you ask. It's a job that is very short. It's a job that YOU pay to go watch. I know it sounds harsh but it's the truth. Your society, my society has decided this sport is very important. There are few people in the whole world who can play it at a high professional level, so arguing that they shouldn't get paid big money in the thing that we all valued highly is not rational thought.

 

Let's instead argue about the value we (as society) place on football and entertainment. And if we think those are not valuable...then you can show it by not following the sport otherwise it's not a strong argument after all we're all here lusting after content  and not at the hospital nodding our heads at how wonderfully that nurse is sewing up a stitch. Don't value football? Yeah right.

 

The day i stop valuing the sport, i'll drop it like a bad habit, and that day i'll feel free to complain about the value the rest of you are placing on it. Till then, i cant make or support that type of argument because it is plain ol wrong

I mean, I’d argue I would rather live in a house built by construction workers or live in a safe world kept so by soldiers than I would watch football. People forget to appreciate the basic things in life and instead worship people who throw around a ball with a weird shape… to each their own I guess. 
 

I didn’t mean to start a war here. I just think people forget to appreciate what they have and where they are and instead focus on what they want. 
 

Peace. 

[Solid84]

14 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Those millions of people couldn't make it there for whatever reason. You're arguing against yourself with that point. Millions of people would give their left nut yet CANNOT because of injury or inability or whatever. Are millions of people trying to be carpenters?

 

Answer honestly.

I’d say there are hundreds of thousands of pro athletes in the world easily and many more who just choose to focus their lives on something else than sports without giving it a try or just don’t get the chance for whatever reason. 
 

This idea that there are only a tiny fraction of the world population capable of playing sports at a high level is just wrong in my opinion. 

[Bolt Colt]

[Colt.45]

Just now, Solid84 said:

I’d say there are millions of pro athletes in the world easily and many more who just choose to focus their lives on something else than sports without giving it a try or just don’t get the chance for whatever reason. 
 

This idea that there are only a tiny fraction of the world population capable of playing sports at a high level is just wrong in my opinion. 

Wrong? Based on what? We're talking of football. This is demand and supply, period. Your feelings don't matter, the facts do. I wish i was wrong because you're a superb former but it's the truth.

There is only a tiny fraction who can play football. Period. If someone cannot play because they're in Australia and all their physical gifts never got actualized then that doesnt mean diddly squat. They never got discovered. That's the nature of the world.

Instead of arguing about who could potentially play, i'm saying you need to argue based on actual facts not wishes. The FACT is only a tiny fraction CAN play in the NFL. That, is a fact that's been proven over and over again. Heck, the CFL isnt far away from us, who spends time watching that league?  Lets be honest with ourselves

[Colt.45]

10 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I mean, I’d argue I would rather live in a house built by construction workers or live in a safe world kept so by soldiers than I would watch football. People forget to appreciate the basic things in life and instead worship people who throw around a ball with a weird shape… to each their own I guess. 
 

I didn’t mean to start a war here. I just think people forget to appreciate what they have and where they are and instead focus on what they want. 
 

Peace. 

 

Oh, 100%. We'd all love nurses paid better, and constructions workers etc etc. But that is all in our heads, our actual actions as a society suggest otherwise. The day we are done with valuing something, we drop it. 

This is not a war. I respect your view, and we are exchanging ideas, i choose to view it that way not as a war

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, Colt.45 said:

Wrong? Based on what? We're talking of football. This is demand and supply, period. Your feelings don't matter, the facts do. I wish i was wrong because you're a superb former but it's the truth.

There is only a tiny fraction who can play football. Period. If someone cannot play because they're in Australia and all their physical gifts never got actualized then that doesnt mean diddly squat. They never got discovered. That's the nature of the world.

Instead of arguing about who could potentially play, i'm saying you need to argue based on actual facts not wishes. The FACT is only a tiny fraction CAN play in the NFL. That, is a fact that's been proven over and over again. Heck, the CFL isnt far away from us, who spends time watching that league?  Lets be honest with ourselves

Never getting discovered doesn’t mean you can’t possess the physical tools and drive to become a football player or athlete of any sort and we can’t discount them on that account. A tiny fraction GET to play football. That doesn’t mean there aren’t thousands who can’t. 

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

OK, let me ask you directly then - what should the Colts do with Kenny Moore? And does this vibe with whatever version of accountability you want the Colts to instill? Keep in mind - his whole season last year and his final 2 games. He wants a new contract with more money now. What do YOU want us to do? How much more than he's making now are you willing to give him? Lets say he wants 15M a year? Do you give it to him? What's the absolute maximum you would give him? But again ... keep in mind that accountability thing and the way he played last year. 

 

 

Oh I acknowledge it's just business and I acknowledge it's his right to do it. Hell, contractually he can just go home and not do anything... even more - when he's required to be here, he can stay home and risk being fined by the Colts. That too is within his rights. I FULLY acknowledge that. This is NOT the question - the question is - do you think he's warranted in doing this? Do you think he deserves a new contract after last year(or if you want, include the last 2 years)? How much do you think is reasonable for the Colts to pay him after the way he played last year? 

 

I thought the Colts should have restructured Kenny Moore at the start of the offseason to create cap space. Maybe they considered it, but he and his agent said 'not without significantly more money,' and that's where all this began... (Doubt it; Defo is the other guy in this situation, and they didn't touch his contract either.) 

 

If he wants $15m/year, we are at an impasse, and the Colts should prepare to have him sit out a portion of the season, because there's no bridging that gap. If he was willing to accept a couple million more in 2022, with a full guarantee for the season, and no extension -- maybe we use a couple voidable years or something -- I'd be fine with that. (And I think if he were a FA this offseason, he easily could have gotten $10-12m/year from another team, even with 2021 not being his finest year. The market is pretty clear on that.)

 

As for accountability, let me be clear: all players should be held accountable. I don't think that when a good, responsible player like Kenny Moore has a few bad games, you should rake him over the head with it like he's a dog who chewed your furniture. That's not accountability, that's pettiness. All players are accountable to carry out their assignments. That doesn't mean you get rid of a player as soon as he has a down season.

 

To the bolded, I think that's a question. It's not really what you were getting at earlier, and it's not really been the tone in most of the posts in this thread. The tone has been typical, bitter fan hatred because a player wants more money.

 

But to that question, as I said earlier, I think the market values Kenny Moore higher than the $6.75m he's scheduled to make in 2022, so it's reasonable for him to want a new deal. I don't really care to talk about what a player deserves; player pay is dictated by the market, and their leverage, not what they deserve. Based on 2021, I'm not in a rush to redo Moore's contract, and I think I'd be okay with them telling him 'no, let's talk next year.' But I think a reasonable middle ground exists where he gets a couple million more, and his 2022 money is guaranteed. And if he's not open to that, then the next move is up to him.

[jbaron04]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Kenny is probably the highest paid “slot corner”. He is not a outside corner by any stretch  

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Never getting discovered doesn’t mean you can’t possess the physical tools and drive to become a football player or athlete of any sort and we can’t discount them on that account. A tiny fraction GET to play football. That doesn’t mean there aren’t thousands who can’t. 

 

This is pretty silly. In theory, maybe there are undiscovered talents out there. In practice, the vast, overwhelming majority of people who try to make it to the NFL are not good enough.

 

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2015/2/27/football-probability-of-competing-beyond-high-school.aspx

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

Kenny is probably the highest paid “slot corner”. He is not a outside corner by any stretch  

 

So how do we separate out slot corners from outside corners, and compare/rank their salaries?

[compuls1v3]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, the 'honor your contract!' crowd is out of touch in a real way.

What’s the point of a contract if not to honor it, and what’s the point of asking for more money if you performed poorly the last season.  I couldn’t imagine I’d get a raise if I didn’t do well the previous year.  It’s not logical, it’s entitlement thinking.

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is pretty silly. In theory, maybe there are undiscovered talents out there. In practice, the vast, overwhelming majority of people who try to make it to the NFL are not good enough.

 

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2015/2/27/football-probability-of-competing-beyond-high-school.aspx

The thing is if NFL wasn’t an american sport but an international sport on the same scale as soccer there would easily be thousands of NFL level players in the world, because training for it be a priority just like it is for soccer.
 

Making playing football out to be something exceptional and something only a few hundred people are capable of is ludicrous in my opinion. 

[Scott Pennock]

1 hour ago, aReggie7 said:

 

Teams cut players all of the time before their contract is up if the player has underperformed or they don't feel they are worth the salary cap hit. In some cases players renegotiate and take less to stay with the team. Teams have every right to cut players before their contract expires. Players have the right to demand more before the contract expires. It works both ways.

 

I don't have a problem with players holding out. It's a business and their career. Just the same as I don't have an issue with teams cutting players before their contract expires.

 

At this point this really isn't a big deal. Every team deals with this at some point. I'm sure the Colts will find a balance here for themselves and Kenny. It's part of their job.

 

 

 

 

True statement. However, I still stand by my stance......f*ck him for being "blessed" and "speechless" and "extremely grateful to the Colts Organization" about the lucrative contract extension he signed to now want more money! My opinion and nobody will be able to change my mind!

[shasta519]

42 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

It's not about supporting a single player. The team comes first. Kenny did not outperform his contract last year, he got cooked repeatedly and was often the main target of offenses running option routes on him. Renfrow cooked him, maybe renfrow should get a pay increase? Sounds ridicilous. if we start paying people before their contract is up it will continue to happen. 

 

Don't sign a contract if you don't intend to honor it. 

 

Not to dog Moore, because he has been a very good player for the Colts. But I have noticed that he has been picked on for the past couple of seasons. Teams have successfully targeted him. 

[#12.]

12 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

 I couldn’t imagine I’d get a raise if I didn’t do well the previous year.  It’s not logical

 

Bad advice Kenny's getting.  Extremely bad timing.  From ownership/front office down to the fans, people are p1ssed at how that season ended.  

[07dleigh]

Look I'm going to be controversial and look at it from the players side rather than the teams side. Just to juxtapose.

 

He didn't outperform his contract, but you think players care lol? He's been arguably the best nickel in the league over the past couple years. Players these days know to SECURE the bag while in their peak. He's not going to NOT demand what he feels he's worth because he dwindled last season. 

 

I'm a fan and not his agent, so I hope this doesn't throw anything off in terms of the focus... but I understand. We have one of the best culture/locker rooms in the league so we haven't been reminded recently that this is a business, but it IS a business. I'm not going to forget how much of a leader and stand-up guy he's been in Indy just because he's doing business.

[shasta519]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So how do we separate out slot corners from outside corners, and compare/rank their salaries?

 

I guess you could separate them out like OTs and interior OL players. The problem is that CBs move around.

 

[Superman]

18 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

The thing is if NFL wasn’t an american sport but an international sport on the same scale as soccer there would easily be thousands of NFL level players in the world, because training for it be a priority just like it is for soccer.
 

Making playing football out to be something exceptional and something only a few hundred people are capable of is ludicrous in my opinion. 

 

And yet... 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, Colt.45 said:

Yup. We're going to find out exactly what value Chris Ballard and his DC place on the position, and exactly how good they think Kenny is and can be.

 

Yep. JMO, but I think Rodgers would be a very capable slot CB. And he's on a rookie deal for 3 more years. But I am not the one making that call.

[stitches]

45 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I thought the Colts should have restructured Kenny Moore at the start of the offseason to create cap space. Maybe they considered it, but he and his agent said 'not without significantly more money,' and that's where all this began... (Doubt it; Defo is the other guy in this situation, and they didn't touch his contract either.) 

 

If he wants $15m/year, we are at an impasse, and the Colts should prepare to have him sit out a portion of the season, because there's no bridging that gap. If he was willing to accept a couple million more in 2022, with a full guarantee for the season, and no extension -- maybe we use a couple voidable years or something -- I'd be fine with that. (And I think if he were a FA this offseason, he easily could have gotten $10-12m/year from another team, even with 2021 not being his finest year. The market is pretty clear on that.)

 

As for accountability, let me be clear: all players should be held accountable. I don't think that when a good, responsible player like Kenny Moore has a few bad games, you should rake him over the head with it like he's a dog who chewed your furniture. That's not accountability, that's pettiness. All players are accountable to carry out their assignments. That doesn't mean you get rid of a player as soon as he has a down season.

For the record, I never said I wanted us to get rid off Kenny because he had a down season. It was about him wanting new contract and more money in light of his diminished play. 

 

45 minutes ago, Superman said:

To the bolded, I think that's a question. It's not really what you were getting at earlier, and it's not really been the tone in most of the posts in this thread. The tone has been typical, bitter fan hatred because a player wants more money.

I vehemently disagree! VEHEMENTLY! My whole argument has been about his level of play. Pretty much every single post of mine in this thread has been about his level of play and whether it deserves a new contract).

 

First post(pretty much the whole thing is about his level of play not deserving any sort of a pay raise):

Quote

Moore started believing his hype way too much if that's true. He was one of the main reasons (defensively) for those two disastrous games at the end of the season and now he has the gall to demand more money after he just signed his contract last year? Are you serious? If he wants more, how much should Hunter Renfrow who made him look like an amateur get? How much should the Jags' scrubs that put 170 yards against him in coverage get? Get your * to practice and show what you deserve, because that last season wasn't it... 

 

Third post(again... I spell it pretty clearly - it's about his level of play not deserving a pay jump):

Quote

He's still rocking the boat. But that's not the main reason I'm miffed. It's because he didn't play well last year... and he still wants more money. 

 

4th post(level of play):

 

Quote

So the 15th best corner for the duration of his previous contract. Now do the same for last year. Because he's certainly not anywhere close to top 15 last year. Maybe top 50.... 

 

5th post(level of play not deserving pay jump)

Quote

His best opportunity to maximize his earning potential is to get his * on the practice field and have a good season. If he had played well, I bet Ballard wouldn't mind giving him an extension and a good contract he would be happy with. But what he wants is something entirely different - he wants to play like % and still get paid. Well, no.... I'd be good with the Colts just telling him - no, prove it. Unless that whole accountability thing was just for show and Wentz was indeed the only scapegoat who deserved any beef for what this team did last year. 

 

6th post(level of play):

 

Quote

It wasn't just the end of the season. I didn't like his play throughout the whole season, there was a very clear step down from his previous years... the last two games were hust the exclamation point of the whole thing. The PB was nonsense. He didn't deserve that spot(for this year... maybe he deserved it for previous ones), 

 

7th post(level of play not deserving payjump... again... clearly state as my main concern):

 

Quote

The contract is not one-sided. Guarantees are not one-sided. Both parties agreed to it. This includes the possibility of him getting cut or getting injured and cut. This is all in the contract and he agreed to it when he signed it. My problem is not with him trying to "maximize his earning potential". My problem is with his play. If he'd played well, I wouldn't mind us giving him more money and keeping him longer. 

 

Kenny Moore didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just like Wentz didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just those 2 games happen to focus the attention of Colts fans.

 

 have no problem with players getting paid or holding out in order to get what they deserve. I had no problem with Aaron Rodgers holding out to get paid. Do you know why? Because he was the freaking MVP of the league two years in a row and he deserved to get paid. 

 

Well... it's not the only way he can. He has obviously made his wishes known in other ways before this and he has received pushback from the FO... otherwise he wouldn't be "soft" holding out. But again - no problem with any player holding out... I just don't believe it's warranted in this case, as his play doesn't convince me he deserves what he's asking for. 

 

9th(level of play not deserving new contract, again, clearly stated as my main concern):

Quote

 

Why is accountability a miss in regards to Kenny Moore? Does he deserve to get rewarded with more money and more years for his play last year? What would it say to the rest of the team when you reward players for playing poorly and especially in the most important games of the season? 

 

Who should have this accountability thing be reserved for then and how should it be expressed? Does anyone on this team, in addition to Wentz, deserve any sort of "repercussions" for their role in the way the season ended? Or were we really just pretending that it wasn't just about Wentz? 

 

I never said anything about Kenny Moore being a bad teammate or bad person. From everything I've seen he's well loved and respected in the team. This is not about his personality. This is about his play. It all boils down to his play. I just don't believe it warrants a new contract. And from the very fact that he's "sitting out" it seems like the FO at least to some degree agrees. 

 

 

10th post(level of play, questions if it deserves new contract): 

Quote

Oh I acknowledge it's just business and I acknowledge it's his right to do it. Hell, contractually he can just go home and not do anything... even more - when he's required to be here, he can stay home and risk being fined by the Colts. That too is within his rights. I FULLY acknowledge that. This is NOT the question - the question is - do you think he's warranted in doing this? Do you think he deserves a new contract after last year(or if you want, include the last 2 years)? How much do you think is reasonable for the Colts to pay him after the way he played last year? 

 

Pretty much the only posts of mine that don't mention in any way his level of play are directly responding to something else(nature of contracts). 

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Superman said:

But to that question, as I said earlier, I think the market values Kenny Moore higher than the $6.75m he's scheduled to make in 2022, so it's reasonable for him to want a new deal. I don't really care to talk about what a player deserves; player pay is dictated by the market, and their leverage, not what they deserve. Based on 2021, I'm not in a rush to redo Moore's contract, and I think I'd be okay with them telling him 'no, let's talk next year.' But I think a reasonable middle ground exists where he gets a couple million more, and his 2022 money is guaranteed. And if he's not open to that, then the next move is up to him.

He's making 6.75M this year as salary but he got 8M signing bonus when he signed. 8.325M average.

 

I don't think this whole thing is over a couple of million. I think he wants more. No idea how much. 

 

P.S. I was just trying to find out who the highest paid slot corner in the league is. Yep... the Colts gave that contract in 2019 and Kenny is still the highest paid slot CB in the league. 

 

[jbaron04]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So how do we separate out slot corners from outside corners, and compare/rank their salaries?

Normally outside Wr a bigger , taller , more fast than quick guys 6’0”+. Where slot Wr and smaller quicker guys. You need the bigger corners 5’11”+ to match them bigger guys vice versa. Let’s take Kenny Moore for instance he is a little guy at 5’9” , not a fast player but he is a good tackler and has good instincts. But on the outside that lack of speed and size gets exposed … just to keep it short . As far as the money go Nfl values position how they value them. Outside corners make double what slot guys make 

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

And yet... 

My point is playing football is, more than talent, about priority, drive and LUCK. 
 

And then we’re back to privilege…

[Colt.45]

42 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Never getting discovered doesn’t mean you can’t possess the physical tools and drive to become a football player or athlete of any sort and we can’t discount them on that account. A tiny fraction GET to play football. That doesn’t mean there aren’t thousands who can’t. 

Every human can be many special things, that doesnt mean that's the way it works. The fact that there may be millions doesnt mean there actually are. These theoretical millions....where are they? Lets deal in actual fact not hypothetical stuff. The fact remains that only a few make it to the league for whatever reason, that is the fact. and unlike many other sports that have amateur levels or many teams, this sport has only 32 teams and is played as a serious sport only in the US, so that seriously limits the number of folks who make it. We all like to dream about this fantastic world where everyone who has physical ability makes it to the league, but this is real world not those great fantastic dreams/movies. Fact is most cannot play in the league. That much is fact, that's why they get paid. 

[stitches]

10 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Yep. JMO, but I think Rodgers would be a very capable slot CB. And he's on a rookie deal for 3 more years. But I am not the one making that call.

I want Rodgers outside he's better there IMO. BTW only 2 more years on rookie deal. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Lol. This isn’t a serious hold out. This was today.

 

 

[Colt.45]

37 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

What’s the point of a contract if not to honor it, and what’s the point of asking for more money if you performed poorly the last season.  I couldn’t imagine I’d get a raise if I didn’t do well the previous year.  It’s not logical, it’s entitlement thinking.

Are you mad at the team when it doesnt honor its contract? Okay, Rock Ya Sin got traded, you mad about that or no? Anthony Walker got cut, you mad? We sit on this forum everyday talking about how the team can get better, and how we can get new better players. If you had the chance to get Mahomes today on a five year deal or Josh Allen, would you be talking of honoring Matt Ryan's contract or would you say Chris Ballard needs to move his butt fast and get the deal closed ASAP? Lets get real. Honoring contracts in the NFL is not a thing. Not on the player side or the club side, that is the business. You don't like how it works? Then ask questions and get educated on WHY it works that way.

 

Also, your job, whatever you do, is not football. Don't judge your job like a football player judges his job. Doing that is...well that would be entitlement thinking (whatever that means), and wholly illogical.

[stitches]

2 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Lol. This isn’t a serious hold out. This was today.

 

 

This is what they call a "hold in"... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, stitches said:

This is what they call a "hold in"... 

seems it’s more to just make a point. It is voluntary. Plus he was still there helping team mates and Bradley.

[Solid84]

5 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Every human can be many special things, that doesnt mean that's the way it works. The fact that there may be millions doesnt mean there actually are. These theoretical millions....where are they? Lets deal in actual fact not hypothetical stuff. The fact remains that only a few make it to the league for whatever reason, that is the fact. and unlike many other sports that have amateur levels or many teams, this sport has only 32 teams and is played as a serious sport only in the US, so that seriously limits the number of folks who make it. We all like to dream about this fantastic world where everyone who has physical ability makes it to the league, but this is real world not those great fantastic dreams/movies. Fact is most cannot play in the league. That much is fact, that's why they get paid. 

I get this is a bit abstract. My point is people act like NFL players are super unique talents and deserve to get paid on that premises and they are just logically not. 

[Colt.45]

7 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

My point is playing football is, more than talent, about priority, drive and LUCK. 
 

And then we’re back to privilege…

Sure, it's all about that YET it's also the way it is. 

Go ask a person from Sudan how lucky they think the average American is. Talk about privilege...You'll find out how lucky we are compared to most people in the world. 

 

You're comparing apples to chitlins (forget oranges). Life just doesnt work in this way you are wishing for. Human beings, societies certainly don't function as you wish. Apart from wishes and horses, there really isnt going to be a tangible example you can point to because your stance is aspirational not factual. Few get to play at the highest level, that is the fact. 

 

Again, to reiterate....the day you and I, and the rest of the millions of football fans decide this game isnt worth more than watching a nurse work, the players will get paid way less regardless of the other many factors. You walking away? I think not.

 

The NFL is king, and the number of fans on this forum is evidence. Anything else is merely our feelings and emotions not facts as they are today. 

[Four2itus]

Lol...if a contract holds a section that dictates bonuses for games started....and the team for their own reasons choose to have the player come in the second quarter to avoid those bonuses, that would also be "the contract as it is signed".

 

But it is not the right thing to do.

 

KM is doing the right thing for himself, and the Colts will do the right thing for the franchise. I hope those things coincide. The team so far has been enhanced by KM's presence. 

[CR91]

Not surprised. Kenny has more then outplayed his contract even though there is two years left.

[Colt.45]

13 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I get this is a bit abstract. My point is people act like NFL players are super unique talents and deserve to get paid on that premises and they are just logically not. 

It's not abstract at all. I understand the point you're making 100%. I agree with it 100%. Football players are not risking more than a cop or a nurse or whatever other risk-filled job. In my fantasy world, people would not care about football like they do, people would value teachers far more than they do. People would honor all these jobs that they don't but then when i leave fantasy and come to reality....well, it serves quite a different dish.

 

Players get paid because there're jobs at the highest level for only a small number of people. This is an economics principle at its simplest. Demand meets supply. This isn't hard to grasp. It'd be like arguing whether the sky is blue or whether one plus one equals two. Sure, you can make drawn out arguments and even support them with something while you argue that the sky aint blue or that one plus one really equals seventeen but the reality of the world isnt going to back you.

 

Again, don't think of all those who potentially could make it. That's like that uncle at the party who talks of how he made love to Ava Gardner, and how he once ran a 4.2 forty. Its fantasy. Reality is different. Once you see this from a reality perspective, it's not hard to see why these guys make what they make. 

This is what we value. Talk is cheap, action is what drives this. All our actions, including you, shows why the boys get paid. 

 

I'm writing long essays. All i'll say finally is don't take this personally. Kenny Moore isnt' He is working with what society gave him, and simply arguing for a fair wage. The money in his bank account isnt going to take away from your bank account. Arguing that many could do his job is dishonest because until you show who those many people are, it aint fact. Arguing about who deserves what is also an exercise devoid of the facts. Demand and supply are simple economics principles that apply everywhere in the world.

[chrisfarley]

We've spent a lot of the cap money that we had.  Glad he waited until the cupboard was bare. 

We are at 12.7M with spotrac not subtracting Kelly, Foles & Lindsay yet.  I'm not sure if it includes all of the UDFA contracts either, but it could.  So once the cap is adjusted for all contracts, let's see what's left.  A restructured deal could include some deferred money that helps us this year.  This seems agent driven and it's too bad.  Kenny had a bad end to the year and it hurt our chances to make the playoffs (he got scorched).  But he is very valuable and will get a new deal, it's just a matter of Ballard getting creative.  

[RollerColt]

Yeah I think Ballard will try to work with him as best we can. Looks to be more of a “please don’t forget about me” situation instead of a full-blown holdout. Perhaps we can get him more money down the road as opposed to right this moment? 
 

Pretty rare for this to happen Colts organization-wise. 

[Solid84]

24 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Sure, it's all about that YET it's also the way it is. 

Go ask a person from Sudan how lucky they think the average American is. Talk about privilege...You'll find out how lucky we are compared to most people in the world. 

 

You're comparing apples to chitlins (forget oranges). Life just doesnt work in this way you are wishing for. Human beings, societies certainly don't function as you wish. Apart from wishes and horses, there really isnt going to be a tangible example you can point to because your stance is aspirational not factual. Few get to play at the highest level, that is the fact. 

 

Again, to reiterate....the day you and I, and the rest of the millions of football fans decide this game isnt worth more than watching a nurse work, the players will get paid way less regardless of the other many factors. You walking away? I think not.

 

The NFL is king, and the number of fans on this forum is evidence. Anything else is merely our feelings and emotions not facts as they are today. 

I just wanted to put his alleged demands into perspective. 
 

The thing is he’s already got, what, 8-9 million in signing bonus? It’s not like he’s in need, yet he wants more while already being the highest paid slot corner in the league. 
 

22 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Lol...if a contract holds a section that dictates bonuses for games started....and the team for their own reasons choose to have the player come in the second quarter to avoid those bonuses, that would also be "the contract as it is signed".

 

But it is not the right thing to do.

 

KM is doing the right thing for himself, and the Colts will do the right thing for the franchise. I hope those things coincide. The team so far has been enhanced by KM's presence. 

1. That’s why you had to make sure you signed with the right guy/team.
2. The team would also be cheating themselves out of playing time from the league highest paid (and thus supposedly the best?) slot corner. Who’s cheating who then?

3. GMs who do this only make it so future players will demand more guarantees to sign with him/the team. 

[Superman]

39 minutes ago, stitches said:

I vehemently disagree! VEHEMENTLY! My whole argument has been about his level of play. Pretty much every single post of mine in this thread has been about his level of play and whether it deserves a new contract).

 

This you??
 

Quote

 

Yes, he earned that contract and the Colts gave it go him. I have no problem with his current contract. And he is still UNDER THAT CONTRACT!! For TWO MORE YEARS! So how about he gets on the field and practice with his teammates as if he's actually being paid by the Colts and as if it's actually HIS SIGNATURE under that contract. 

 

...

 

But what he wants is something entirely different - he wants to play like % and still get paid. Well, no.... I'd be good with the Colts just telling him - no, prove it. Unless that whole accountability thing was just for show and Wentz was indeed the only scapegoat who deserved any beef for what this team did last year. 

 

 

 

There's a tone to these comments, and it's not all 'his play doesn't warrant a new contract,' either.

 

But when I mentioned the tone of the posts in this thread, it wasn't exclusively about your posts.

 

Quote

 

He's making 6.75M this year as salary but he got 8M signing bonus when he signed. 8.325M average.

 

I don't think this whole thing is over a couple of million. I think he wants more. No idea how much. 

 

P.S. I was just trying to find out who the highest paid slot corner in the league is. Yep... the Colts gave that contract in 2019 and Kenny is still the highest paid slot CB in the league. 

 

 

And how much would he get paid if he were a FA this offseason? Realistically speaking, probably twice as much as he's scheduled to make over the next two seasons, and at least the first two years would be guaranteed, or close to it. And that's even with his less than great 2021 season.

 

And that's all this is about. He thinks he has a market that's well above what he's being paid now. If you're right that he wants much more, then like I said earlier, I'd have to tell him no, and prepare for him to sit out for however long he thinks he needs to. Again, that's the business. 

 

To the bolded, got a link or a list? I'm curious, because Spotrac doesn't differentiate slot corners.

 

29 minutes ago, stitches said:

This is what they call a "hold in"... 

 

Which is what Deshaun Watson did all of 2021... I don't see KM doing that, but it's worth mentioning.

[compuls1v3]

31 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Are you mad at the team when it doesnt honor its contract? Okay, Rock Ya Sin got traded, you mad about that or no? Anthony Walker got cut, you mad? We sit on this forum everyday talking about how the team can get better, and how we can get new better players. If you had the chance to get Mahomes today on a five year deal or Josh Allen, would you be talking of honoring Matt Ryan's contract or would you say Chris Ballard needs to move his butt fast and get the deal closed ASAP? Lets get real. Honoring contracts in the NFL is not a thing. Not on the player side or the club side, that is the business. You don't like how it works? Then ask questions and get educated on WHY it works that way.

 

Also, your job, whatever you do, is not football. Don't judge your job like a football player judges his job. Doing that is...well that would be entitlement thinking (whatever that means), and wholly illogical.

First off, you mentioned a bunch of people that I wasn’t addressing, nor am I mad.  Secondly, I was genuinely asking what contracts are for, if not to honor them.  What is the point?  Thirdly, I can have my own opinion about if a player has a bad year and asks for more money, it seems like entitlement to me? Others have said other CBs around the league are making more money?  That sounds like entitlement to me.  Now if he played as well or better than previous years, it would make sense to me to ask for more money.  That’s just my opinion. Others may disagree.

[stitches]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This you?
 

There's a tone to these comments, and it's not all 'his play doesn't warrant a new contract,' either.

Heh, I don't know how to defend my "tone". I just posted every single post of mine here and there is one overlapping theme in pretty much every single one of them - level of play and whether it deserves a new contract or not. 

 

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

But when I mentioned the tone of the posts in this thread, it wasn't exclusively about your posts.

 

 

And how much would he get paid if he were a FA this offseason? Realistically speaking, probably twice as much as he's scheduled to make over the next two seasons, and at least the first two years would be guaranteed, or close to it. And that's even with his less than great 2021 season.

 

And that's all this is about. He thinks he has a market that's well above what he's being paid now. If you're right that he wants much more, then like I said earlier, I'd have to tell him no, and prepare for him to sit out for however long he thinks he needs to. Again, that's the business. 

 

To the bolded, got a link or a list? I'm curious, because Spotrac doesn't differentiate slot corners.

No idea how much he gets this year if he were a FA. Based on how much other slots are getting... probably not as much as you assume. I didn't find a list of salaries, but I searched lists of best slot CBs and checked their salaries one by one. Kenny's was the highest. Now this might be missing someone, but I thought it was likely that I checked most of the better/highest paid slots. The salaries slot CBs get are very low compared to outside CBs. It was kind of shocking to see. Makes you wonder even more, how much exactly does Kenny want?