Kenny Moore absent from OTAs, wants new contract

[EastStreet]

39 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Moore is a good player and good guy (We saw Hard Knocks), is he elite ? No, and should he hold out ? No, he already got a boost from original contract. Play it out and see what next contract is presented based on how season goes. Is he a villain ? No...just a guy trying to get what he can before body breaks down......I'd bet Pats still kicking themselves letting him go...... 

 

NE was loaded with DBs when they cut Kenny. Pretty sure they've had Jonathan Jones who they kept over Kenny. He was also a UDFA, but I think from a year or two before Kenny. Jones was pretty darn good that year (2017) and the next. NE has signed and developed several UDFA into studs. I recall him getting the better of T Hill one year which got a ton of press.  

 

Also keep in mind, IIRC, Moore started out as an outside CB for us, struggled, and was moved to NB, where he found his groove.

[jbaron04]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

He plays roughly 90 percent of the snaps.  That means he’s outside a fair amount.  So I’m not sure management would agree with your evaluation

 

His PFF scores don’t say liability.   They say good corner.   Maybe not great, but better than many here think.  In this thread I’ve actually read posters saying we would have no problem replacing Moore.   I think management would strongly disagree with that. 

Not necessarily , colts played nickel def 79-80% of the time meaning he might be on the outside 10% of the time if that. Also PFF scores does say he a liability in coverage He was number one targets at 125 and number one in receptions allowed at 87 If we take into account his 9 PD and 4 int, 25 passes mixture of drops bad passes. He excelled at tackling. But let’s be honest you rather had a corner that great at coverage defending Wr which is a corners job vs one that good tackling but struggles to do his primary job which is covering Wr 

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

Not necessarily , colts played nickel def 79-80% of the time meaning he might be on the outside 10% of the time if that. Also PFF scores does say he a liability in coverage He was number one targets at 125 and number one in receptions allowed at 87 If we take into account his 9 PD and 4 int, 25 passes mixture of drops bad passes. He excelled at tackling. But let’s be honest you rather had a corner that great at coverage defending Wr which is a corners job vs one that good tackling but struggles to do his primary job which is covering Wr 

And yet, his pass defense grades have been in the 70’s, until this past year…. Where he graded in the mid-60’s, which PFF says is average to above average.   Yet somehow you have chosen NOT to post that info in numerous posts in this thread.   Only the bad stats.   I wonder why?

 

Why wouldn’t you post all the info instead of just the info that supports your position?  Hmm?

 

[jbaron04]

19 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

And yet, his pass defense grades have been in the 70’s, until this past year…. Where he graded in the mid-60’s, which PFF says is average to above average.   Yet somehow you have chosen NOT to post that info in numerous posts in this thread.   Only the bad stats.   I wonder why?

 

Why wouldn’t you post all the info instead of just the info that supports your position?  Hmm?

 

I didn’t have access to that info at the time , but it’s what have you done for me lately league. Why ask for a new contract when you had a down year 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

I didn’t have access to that info at the time , but it’s what have you done for me lately league. Why ask for a new contract when you had a down year 

I agree….  I think his timing is terrible.   I may be defending Moore, but only up to a point. 
 

I’ve publicly said I do not want Ballard to give him a new deal.  And I made a post that said it’s being reported the Colts have no intention of re-doing his deal.  
 

But….   I think there is a pathway to compromise so everyone saves face and everyone’s gets a little something.  Guarantee his final two years against injury.  Give him that protection.   Doesn’t cost the Colts a single dollar.   Moore gets his money guaranteed, the Colts can say they didn’t re-do his deal.   I think that’s win-win.  
 

But I worry Kenny is getting bad advice….  We will all see what happens when there is a mandatory camp, which is soon.  Does Moore show or not?    I hope for his sake he does. 

[AwesomeAustin]

I listened to the Bring the Juice podcast on YouTube and they had several good points about Kenny. I expect some kind of guarantee to change but I don’t want the Colts don’t give him a new contract. Mainly for setting the precedent of renegotiating with two years left. Kenny is a good player and the type the Colts want on the roster. His holdout is really tame and I understand why he is doing it. I expect more hard contract negotiations in the Colts future bc this roster is loaded with talent and not everyone can be paid. 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I listened to the Bring the Juice podcast on YouTube and they had several good points about Kenny. I expect some kind of guarantee to change but I don’t want the Colts don’t give him a new contract. Mainly for setting the precedent of renegotiating with two years left. Kenny is a good player and the type the Colts want on the roster. His holdout is really tame and I understand why he is doing it. I expect more hard contract negotiations in the Colts future bc this roster is loaded with talent and not everyone can be paid. 

 

On the bolded, was talking to a buddy in general about this. We both though it was very likely that every agent who has a Colts player coming up for renewal, is going to be in a race to try and get a new deal. Money will get tight. My buddy said Kenny may be just taking a number so his place in line is made clear lol. I agree to an extent, but I also think Kenny likely is believing the hype and probably has someone chirping in his ear. I just don't want this to end up toxic like his time in NE. 

[jbaron04]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I agree….  I think his timing is terrible.   I may be defending Moore, but only up to a point. 
 

I’ve publicly said I do not want Ballard to give him a new deal.  And I made a post that said it’s being reported the Colts have no intention of re-doing his deal.  
 

But….   I think there is a pathway to compromise so everyone saves face and everyone’s gets a little something.  Guarantee his final two years against injury.  Give him that protection.   Doesn’t cost the Colts a single dollar.   Moore gets his money guaranteed, the Colts can say they didn’t re-do his deal.   I think that’s win-win.  
 

But I worry Kenny is getting bad advice….  We will all see what happens when there is a mandatory camp, which is soon.  Does Moore show or not?    I hope for his sake he does. 

Yea I think he fired his agent and the new one was telling him you see all these other contracts you can make more etc… agent probably trying to get his 10%. Kenny has to be realistic, like he making 8m we paying former DPOY 10m how much more he think he should be paid

[Superman]

On 5/29/2022 at 2:37 AM, NewColtsFan said:

I agree….  I think his timing is terrible.   I may be defending Moore, but only up to a point. 
 

I’ve publicly said I do not want Ballard to give him a new deal.  And I made a post that said it’s being reported the Colts have no intention of re-doing his deal.  
 

But….   I think there is a pathway to compromise so everyone saves face and everyone’s gets a little something.  Guarantee his final two years against injury.  Give him that protection.   Doesn’t cost the Colts a single dollar.   Moore gets his money guaranteed, the Colts can say they didn’t re-do his deal.   I think that’s win-win.  
 

But I worry Kenny is getting bad advice….  We will all see what happens when there is a mandatory camp, which is soon.  Does Moore show or not?    I hope for his sake he does. 

 

Yes, agreed. They can move some of his 2023 money into 2022, with a guarantee. I think that's a simple compromise, that doesn't set a precedent for extending a contract or increasing pay with two years remaining. 

 

I also think the Colts have the standing to take a hard stance with him, given how they've handled his contract in the past, how they pay their other foundational players, and how they've cooperated with players to help them broaden their platforms off the field. The Andrew Luck contract situation is a good example. The Colts are very pro-player, and typically very reasonable in the way they deal with their players on and off the field. I think they have some goodwill built up.

 

I just take issue with people baring their teeth at a player -- who has been a good example and teammate his entire time in Indy -- because he wants to be paid more. NFL contracts overwhelmingly favor the teams, and almost any effort by a player to maximize his earnings results in the player being branded as selfish, greedy, dishonorable, etc. So like you, I have been defensive of Moore in this thread, but that's not because I think the Colts should just pay him whatever he wants.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yes, agreed. They can move some of his 2023 money into 2022, with a guarantee. I think that's a simple compromise, that doesn't set a precedent for extending a contract or increasing pay with two years remaining. 

 

I also think the Colts have the standing to take a hard stance with him, given how they've handled his contract in the past, how they pay their other foundational players, and how they've cooperated with players to help them broaden their platforms off the field. The Andrew Luck contract situation is a good example. The Colts are very pro-player, and typically very reasonable in the way they deal with their players on and off the field. I think they have some goodwill built up.

 

I just take issue with people baring their teeth at a player -- who has been a good example and teammate his entire time in Indy -- because he wants to be paid more. NFL contracts overwhelmingly favor the teams, and almost any effort by a player to maximize his earnings results in the player being branded as selfish, greedy, dishonorable, etc. So like you, I have been defensive of Moore in this thread, but that's not because I think the Colts should just pay him whatever he wants.

 

 

To the first bolded. Moving 2023 money into 2022 is a shell game that's more or less a raise, as we all know it would either 1) create an even a larger hold out situation next season, or 2) he's extended in the off season after the 2023 reduction, and the 2023 salary gets bump up anyway. However you look at it, it's capitulating to someone we made the highest paid at his position last go around, who can't even wait till his contract-year to make noise...

 

To the second bolded... You state that as if fact. It's simply not. Again, teams don't get refunds for poor performance. They don't get rebates for busts. Both sides roll the dice. In Kenny's case, he did not cheated. Far from it. He was made the highest paid NB in the league by Indy. His contract was not unfair or one sided. This whole baring teeth narrative suggests that there are not solid reasons why people might question THIS SPECIFIC situation. And there are very solid reasons. 

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

 

To the first bolded. Moving 2023 money into 2022 is a shell game that's more or less a raise, as we all know it would either 1) create an even a larger hold out situation next season, or 2) he's extended in the off season after the 2023 reduction, and the 2023 salary gets bump up anyway. However you look at it, it's capitulating to someone we made the highest paid at his position last go around, who can't even wait till his contract-year to make noise...

 

To the second bolded... You state that as if fact. It's simply not. Again, teams don't get refunds for poor performance. They don't get rebates for busts. Both sides roll the dice. In Kenny's case, he did not cheated. Far from it. He was made the highest paid NB in the league by Indy. His contract was not unfair or one sided. This whole baring teeth narrative suggests that there are not solid reasons why people might question THIS SPECIFIC situation. And there are very solid reasons. 

 

I disagree.

[EastStreet]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree.

 

OK,

So what about my post is incorrect?

• Is moving money up from 2023, only to more or less void 2023 and extend/raise this coming offseason, more or less a raise, or not?
• Do teams get refunds on bad performance, busts, injuries, or simply bad decisions (like JB's raise/extension)? ..... This happens all the time, so why are players on the bad end of the "one-sided" narrative you're suggesting?
• Did we not make Kenny the highest paid NB? We know that almost every season or two, we get a new highest paid lol... So does Kenny get a bump every time someone passes him regardless of how much time he has left?

 

And a few more... 

• Was Kenny's performance top 5 among NBs last year by any widely accepted grading mechanism?
• How does Kenny's current pay stack up with his grading (purely among NBs).... Is it substantially out of whack?

 

I think if you answer the two questions above, you might have a different take. 

 

Bonus - I think you have a PFF sub... (or to anyone else on the board that has a PFF sub)...  If you want to provide slot snaps across the NFL, I'll do the work for you and provide grade rank vs pay rank... 

 

 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

OK,

So what about my post is incorrect?

• Is moving money up from 2023, only to more or less void 2023 and extend/raise this coming offseason, more or less a raise, or not?
• Do teams get refunds on bad performance, busts, injuries, or simply bad decisions (like JB's raise/extension)? ..... This happens all the time, so why are players on the bad end of the "one-sided" narrative you're suggesting?
• Did we not make Kenny the highest paid NB? We know that almost every season or two, we get a new highest paid lol... So does Kenny get a bump every time someone passes him regardless of how much time he has left?

 

And a few more... 

• Was Kenny's performance top 5 among NBs last year by any widely accepted grading mechanism?
• How does Kenny's current pay stack up with his grading (purely among NBs).... Is it substantially out of whack?

 

I think if you answer the two questions above, you might have a different take. 

 

Bonus - I think you have a PFF sub... (or to anyone else on the board that has a PFF sub)...  If you want to provide slot snaps across the NFL, I'll do the work for you and provide grade rank vs pay rank... 

 

 

 

No, I'm not really interested in a point by point on this. I stated my piece. You stated yours. We see it differently, and I'm okay with that. 

[EastStreet]

32 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

No, I'm not really interested in a point by point on this. I stated my piece. You stated yours. We see it differently, and I'm okay with that. 

 

No worries. I didn't expect one. 

 

BTW, I did the work in listing all projected starting NBs (plus more), along with grades and pay in it's own thread. I'm sure some with blindly discount grades and stats, but overall it was an enlightening exercise. 

[BlackTiger]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:49 AM, masterlock said:

A team who cuts a player under contract must pay any remaining compensation (specified by the contract).

You are confusing dead cap hits and guaranteed money.  Players can lose years of salary when a team cuts them early and they dont get paid any more of the  "dead" money

 

Dead money is usually money from the signing bonus that the team already paid the player but it hasnt hit the teams salary cap yet.  The player doesnt get whatever future salary had been agreed too unless it was guaranteed(which most of it isnt)

 

I think Kenny has no remaining guarantees,  the team could cut him and not pay him anymore.  there might be a dead cap hit but that wont go to Kenny now

[iuswingman]

21 hours ago, BlackTiger said:

You are confusing dead cap hits and guaranteed money.  Players can lose years of salary when a team cuts them early and they dont get paid any more of the  "dead" money

 

Dead money is usually money from the signing bonus that the team already paid the player but it hasnt hit the teams salary cap yet.  The player doesnt get whatever future salary had been agreed too unless it was guaranteed(which most of it isnt)

 

I think Kenny has no remaining guarantees,  the team could cut him and not pay him anymore.  there might be a dead cap hit but that wont go to Kenny now

 

If a player's guaranteed hadn't hit the salary cap yet, then technically that would be something akin to a cash advance for services not yet rendered.  The player doesn't have to return the guaranteed portion that he didn't end up earning due to early termination. 

 

Of course, they do lose the nonguaranteed money.

 

I'd be fine if there were more player friendly stipulations to early termination (having to pay some of remaining salary or something) if it would forgo the attempts to renegotiate contracts that aren't close to being up.

[gspdx]

On 5/31/2022 at 3:10 PM, Superman said:

I just take issue with people baring their teeth at a player -- who has been a good example and teammate his entire time in Indy -- because he wants to be paid more. NFL contracts overwhelmingly favor the teams, and almost any effort by a player to maximize his earnings results in the player being branded as selfish, greedy, dishonorable, etc. So like you, I have been defensive of Moore in this thread, but that's not because I think the Colts should just pay him whatever he wants.

 

Not sure I completely agree with this.  I don't have any union representation and I am working week to week, day to day.  I have no guarantees at all and can be let go at any time for almost no reason.  NFL teams have to agree to basic employment requirements with the union and then sign contracts with every player.  I know that means players can't just walk away when they sign a contract, but I think a player could probably have no guaranteed money and require the ability to walk away whenever they want.  But I would think a contract like that would not be a high dollar contract - that would be the trade off.

 

I am not going to say my situation is just like a professional athlete's situation.  And I don't disagree with a player trying to maximize their earnings.  But there is a time and a place for this and I think his timing is wrong and his attitude about being under valued or whatever is wrong.  Seems like maybe he is approaching this with a little chip on his shoulder and I think that is a mistake and isn't going to get him what he wants.

[masterlock]

On 6/1/2022 at 2:39 PM, BlackTiger said:

You are confusing dead cap hits and guaranteed money.  Players can lose years of salary when a team cuts them early and they dont get paid any more of the  "dead" money

 

Dead money is usually money from the signing bonus that the team already paid the player but it hasnt hit the teams salary cap yet.  The player doesnt get whatever future salary had been agreed too unless it was guaranteed(which most of it isnt)

 

I think Kenny has no remaining guarantees,  the team could cut him and not pay him anymore.  there might be a dead cap hit but that wont go to Kenny now

You're right. I assumed a contract was a contract for a specified length of time and dollar amount, with conditions that come into effect for various scenarios (injury, skill, etc.). Normally, a contract isn't the type of thing that can just be torn up unilaterally, unless specified by the contract. That seems pretty one-sided, since players can't just void their own contracts, at least not to my knowledge. 

[EastStreet]

52 minutes ago, masterlock said:

You're right. I assumed a contract was a contract for a specified length of time and dollar amount, with conditions that come into effect for various scenarios (injury, skill, etc.). Normally, a contract isn't the type of thing that can just be torn up unilaterally, unless specified by the contract. That seems pretty one-sided, since players can't just void their own contracts, at least not to my knowledge. 

Some contracts do allow a player to void a contract. There are plenty of contracts with "outs". 

 

It's simply all about what a team and agent negotiate. 

[Indyfan4life]

Cooper Kupp DID say his toughest defender last year was Kenny Moore. Just saying. 

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Cooper Kupp DID say his toughest defender last year was Kenny Moore. Just saying. 

Kenny won a few snaps, but overall, Kupp killed Kenny that game.

 

[Indyfan4life]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Kenny won a few snaps, but overall, Kupp killed Kenny that game.

 

Kupp kills everyone though. 

[EastStreet]

41 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Kupp kills everyone though. 

 

Kupp is good no doubt, but he had season highs in Yards, YAC, and TDs vs Indy.. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

That was more Eberflus system giving ten yards if free space.

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:58 PM, EastStreet said:

Kenny won a few snaps, but overall, Kupp killed Kenny that game.

 

- get 'em Kenny! 21 is actually Hines  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]