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Kenny Moore absent from OTAs, wants new contract


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14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, this is typical, rabid fan, bitter nonsense, turning hard on a player using the only leverage he has to maximize his earning potential. 

 

The Colts could cut Kenny Moore tomorrow, and pay him absolutely nothing more. If Moore is practicing in OTAs and blows an Achilles or an ACL, the Colts would IR him and force an injury split into his contract, reducing his 2022 earnings. Let's not talk about the sanctity of the contract, when that sanctity is one-sided. 

 

It's also pretty extreme to undermine a player's entire career because he had a couple bad games at the end of the season. Kenny Moore and Carson Wentz are not the same guy just because they both played poorly in the last two games. 

 

And really, as was mentioned earlier, this is the weakest "holdout" I've ever seen. First, it's not a holdout because OTAs are voluntary -- another area where players get screwed in public perception, because if they choose not to show up to a non-mandatory team event then the fans and media turn on them, even though it's the players risking their career/health, especially with no guaranteed money on their contracts (like Moore right now).

 

Second, the dude is actually present, and just not practicing on the field. Aaron Rodgers -- who flamed out in the playoffs again, and who has held his team hostage the last two offseasons, and who signed a massive contract to make him the highest paid player in the league -- is literally on the golf course as I type this, advancing his own agenda, while his teammates are at OTAs. 

 

And if the Colts tell Kenny Moore 'no, prove it, and we'll talk,' that's fine. It would not be the first time a team told a player with two years remaining on his contract that they weren't going to talk about a new deal. There are lots of ways they can handle this, and I'm sure they've weighed them out. Just because he wants a new deal doesn't mean they have to capitulate, and I'd be fine with them taking a hardline there. 

 

What I'm not fine with is people acting like he's "wrong" for making his wishes known, in literally the only way he can.


You win the day!   Drop the Mic!!   Bravo!

 

Bothers me no end when fans are fine when teams cut players with years left on their contract, but are morally outraged when a player tries to exercise any leverage at all.  
 

I don’t know if we will ADD any more money, but the simplest, most straight forward thing to do is to guarantee Kenny’s remaining dollars.   That would help.  Whether it’s enough is another story. 

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15 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

F*ck his contract holdout. So what if he "outperformed" his contract. If he "underperformed" he wouldn't demand a paycut so let's not act like he's a fricken Saint here.

 

He willingly signed it and was "speechless" as I recall......see linked article!

 

https://www.colts.com/news/kenny-moore-ii-speechless-after-signing-new-contract

 

So once again, f*ck his holdout!

 

From Sportrac

Kenny Moore signed a 4 year, $33,300,000 contract with the Indianapolis Colts, including $9,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $8,325,000. In 2022, Moore will earn a base salary of $6,500,000 and a roster bonus of $250,000, while carrying a cap hit of $6,750,000.

Contract: 4 yr(s) / $33,300,000

Guaranteed at Signing: $9,000,000

Average Salary: $8,325,000

 

Teams cut players all of the time before their contract is up if the player has underperformed or they don't feel they are worth the salary cap hit. In some cases players renegotiate and take less to stay with the team. Teams have every right to cut players before their contract expires. Players have the right to demand more before the contract expires. It works both ways.

 

I don't have a problem with players holding out. It's a business and their career. Just the same as I don't have an issue with teams cutting players before their contract expires.

 

At this point this really isn't a big deal. Every team deals with this at some point. I'm sure the Colts will find a balance here for themselves and Kenny. It's part of their job.

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Good for him. As long as his agent has a case, and he indeed can prove that case then he does deserve to get paid as much as he can, while he can.

 

This is NOT a negative thing, Colts fans. If our GM and his staff (inc coaching staff) did not anticipate this happening then we need a new GM. 

The way the BUSINESS of the sport works should be separated from the way the love and other mushy side of the sport works. As long as Moore shows up when he is mandated to, and that he plays up to the level of the wage he is asking for, then i don't see the problem. OTAs are optional, last i checked. I believe a great player used to once say that....ah yes, Edgerrin James was his name.

 

Good for Kenny, get paid dude. 

 

I never judge a player for wanting more money. 

 

But honestly, I am more intrigued to see how Ballard handles this. He hasn't really dealt with this situation.

 

I believe there were rumors of Ebron wanting a big extension after his 2018 season (only one year into his deal), but it was never made public. So who knows if it was true. Though given how quickly everything soured with Ebron, I wouldn't be surprised either way.

 

But Moore isn't Ebron either. 

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, this is typical, rabid fan, bitter nonsense, turning hard on a player using the only leverage he has to maximize his earning potential. 

 

The Colts could cut Kenny Moore tomorrow, and pay him absolutely nothing more. If Moore is practicing in OTAs and blows an Achilles or an ACL, the Colts would IR him and force an injury split into his contract, reducing his 2022 earnings. Let's not talk about the sanctity of the contract, when that sanctity is one-sided. 

The contract is not one-sided. Guarantees are not one-sided. Both parties agreed to it. This includes the possibility of him getting cut or getting injured and cut. This is all in the contract and he agreed to it when he signed it. My problem is not with him trying to "maximize his earning potential". My problem is with his play. If he'd played well, I wouldn't mind us giving him more money and keeping him longer. 

 

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

It's also pretty extreme to undermine a player's entire career because he had a couple bad games at the end of the season. Kenny Moore and Carson Wentz are not the same guy just because they both played poorly in the last two games. 

Kenny Moore didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just like Wentz didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just those 2 games happen to focus the attention of Colts fans.

 

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

And really, as was mentioned earlier, this is the weakest "holdout" I've ever seen. First, it's not a holdout because OTAs are voluntary -- another area where players get screwed in public perception, because if they choose not to show up to a non-mandatory team event then the fans and media turn on them, even though it's the players risking their career/health, especially with no guaranteed money on their contracts (like Moore right now).

 

Second, the dude is actually present, and just not practicing on the field. Aaron Rodgers -- who flamed out in the playoffs again, and who has held his team hostage the last two offseasons, and who signed a massive contract to make him the highest paid player in the league -- is literally on the golf course as I type this, advancing his own agenda, while his teammates are at OTAs. 

I have no problem with players getting paid or holding out in order to get what they deserve. I had no problem with Aaron Rodgers holding out to get paid. Do you know why? Because he was the freaking MVP of the league two years in a row and he deserved to get paid. 

 

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

And if the Colts tell Kenny Moore 'no, prove it, and we'll talk,' that's fine. It would not be the first time a team told a player with two years remaining on his contract that they weren't going to talk about a new deal. There are lots of ways they can handle this, and I'm sure they've weighed them out. Just because he wants a new deal doesn't mean they have to capitulate, and I'd be fine with them taking a hardline there. 

 

What I'm not fine with is people acting like he's "wrong" for making his wishes known, in literally the only way he can.

 

Well... it's not the only way he can. He has obviously made his wishes known in other ways before this and he has received pushback from the FO... otherwise he wouldn't be "soft" holding out. But again - no problem with any player holding out... I just don't believe it's warranted in this case, as his play doesn't convince me he deserves what he's asking for. 

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:


You win the day!   Drop the Mic!!   Bravo!

 

Bothers me no end when fans are fine when teams cut players with years left on their contract, but are morally outraged when a player tries to exercise any leverage at all.  
 

I don’t know if we will ADD any more money, but the simplest, most straight forward thing to do is to guarantee Kenny’s remaining dollars.   That would help.  Whether it’s enough is another story. 

 

I'd be fine with the Colts saying 'no, we'll talk after this season.' I don't know if it's the best way to handle it, but I'd get it. Every team wants to avoid setting a precedent of renegotiating a player contract with two years remaining. And in Kenny's case, they showed good faith in extending him after two years. It's not like they've hard-lined him and other players, they're generally pro player in contract situations.

 

But I absolutely get where Kenny is coming from, and it's simple business. It's also something the Colts have not been affected by very much.

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15 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Ok..    your last paragraph says you don’t follow football very closely.   Teams do this all the time.  Even the Colts.  We signed Pierre Desir to 3 years and 22 million.   One year later, we cut him.   Desir got zero more dollars from the Colts.  This happens every year.  
 

Don’t you notice every year just before free agency starts and some teams are way WAY Over The Cap and people here anticipate teams cutting expensive players?   This happens every year.   
 

Players laugh at fans who don’t get this.   Teams cut players all the time who have years left on their contract.   If we wanted, we could cut Kenny Moore today and we’d owe him zero. 

A team cannot not pay somebody dollars they were guaranteed in their contract.  Nope.

 

A team can not pay somebody dollars that aren’t guaranteed.  Yep.  That *is* honoring the contract.

 

Name me one player who got stiffed by a team for guaranteed dollars (for anything other than just cause…like legal stuff, failed drug tests, etc).

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10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, the 'honor your contract!' crowd is out of touch in a real way.

This IS the contract. The ability to cut a player after 1 year IS IN THE CONTRACT. The players agree to this! This IS honoring the contract. 

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:


You win the day!   Drop the Mic!!   Bravo!

 

Bothers me no end when fans are fine when teams cut players with years left on their contract, but are morally outraged when a player tries to exercise any leverage at all.  
 

I don’t know if we will ADD any more money, but the simplest, most straight forward thing to do is to guarantee Kenny’s remaining dollars.   That would help.  Whether it’s enough is another story. 

 

 

More widely, the sentiment arguing against Moore is an example of why the rich continue to screw over the others in this country....and everywhere else really. Folks are shielded from seeing and considering all viewpoints. 

 

The dollars don't come out of the fans pocket. Not in an immediately direct way. The fans are more than happy to list Moore among our great players when they write those team lists showing how strong the Colts defense will be in 2022. However, the minute a member of that supposedly great unit comes out and says "hey, maybe pay me according to what i have done over X time" then you see these fans turn on the player. The same player they stuck in those lists. The same player they hyped when they discussed how good we could be in the coming season.

It is what it is, and it is that way because the media tells it that way, and tell it in favor of the rich ie the ball club rather than the player. Even the highest paid player in the league still isnt making squat compared to the true rich ie the folks who OWN the actual team. Players are rarely greedy and that's the truth, even if it isnt from their nature as human beings, the structure of the league ensures that things stay that way. If a player wants to get paid more than he is worth and the club can show that, they are trading that player or cutting him , and replacing him with someone else. That is the business of the sport.

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3 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

A team cannot not pay somebody dollars they were guaranteed in their contract.  Nope.

 

A team can not pay somebody dollars that aren’t guaranteed.  Yep.  That *is* honoring the contract.

 

Name me one player who got stiffed by a team for guaranteed dollars (for anything other than just cause…like legal stuff, failed drug tests, etc).


This is half the story.    There are almost no contracts that are fully guaranteed in the NFL.  A small handful.    It’s not baseball or basketball or hockey.   Players have almost no leverage.  
 

Fans are fine when the team has leverage, but HATE when the player has it.   Pretty one sided.   You’re free to support anyone, any side you want.   Just don’t be surprised when players resent fans for the lack of support. 

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5 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I never judge a player for wanting more money. 

 

But honestly, I am more intrigued to see how Ballard handles this. He hasn't really dealt with this situation.

 

I believe there were rumors of Ebron wanting a big extension after his 2018 season (only one year into his deal), but it was never made public. So who knows if it was true. Though given how quickly everything soured with Ebron, I wouldn't be surprised either way.

 

But Moore isn't Ebron either. 

Ballard'll argue his case, and probably already has been arguing it. He wanted to see how far the guy was willing to go, and now it's public.

Ballard's actions will be no mystery. If he believes Kenny is worth what he's asking for then he will pay him. If he doesn't think so, then he won't and he'll cut or trade him if/when he can as long as he can get a replacement who he thinks can perform to the value he has given the position. 

This situation is not so much about how Ballard handles a player holding out, that part is 100% part of the nature of the business and Ballard has been around the business side for a long time so this isn't something new. The situation is more about what value Ballard places to the player and the position. That's what this will tell us. That's the curious part....from what we knew with the previous DC/defesnive philosophy, the slot corner was very important. If Bradley's defense emphasizes the value of the slot corner then Kenny is getting paid. If it doesn't, well the young man will get cut/traded when the 1st GOOD opportunity comes.

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35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, this is typical, rabid fan, bitter nonsense, turning hard on a player using the only leverage he has to maximize his earning potential. 

 

The Colts could cut Kenny Moore tomorrow, and pay him absolutely nothing more. If Moore is practicing in OTAs and blows an Achilles or an ACL, the Colts would IR him and force an injury split into his contract, reducing his 2022 earnings. Let's not talk about the sanctity of the contract, when that sanctity is one-sided. 

 

It's also pretty extreme to undermine a player's entire career because he had a couple bad games at the end of the season. Kenny Moore and Carson Wentz are not the same guy just because they both played poorly in the last two games. 

 

And really, as was mentioned earlier, this is the weakest "holdout" I've ever seen. First, it's not a holdout because OTAs are voluntary -- another area where players get screwed in public perception, because if they choose not to show up to a non-mandatory team event then the fans and media turn on them, even though it's the players risking their career/health, especially with no guaranteed money on their contracts (like Moore right now).

 

Second, the dude is actually present, and just not practicing on the field. Aaron Rodgers -- who flamed out in the playoffs again, and who has held his team hostage the last two offseasons, and who signed a massive contract to make him the highest paid player in the league -- is literally on the golf course as I type this, advancing his own agenda, while his teammates are at OTAs. 

 

And if the Colts tell Kenny Moore 'no, prove it, and we'll talk,' that's fine. It would not be the first time a team told a player with two years remaining on his contract that they weren't going to talk about a new deal. There are lots of ways they can handle this, and I'm sure they've weighed them out. Just because he wants a new deal doesn't mean they have to capitulate, and I'd be fine with them taking a hardline there. 

 

What I'm not fine with is people acting like he's "wrong" for making his wishes known, in literally the only way he can.

To the bolded…

 

No, no, no and no…

 

There are plenty of people risking health, even their lives, for a lot less than these NFL players make.
  Not knowing the specifics of his contract I’d wager he’s already made millions?… This idea they HAVE to make millions of dollars for doing something they are absolutely privileged to do is a joke. 
 

That said, the OTAs are voluntary so, yeah…

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20 minutes ago, stitches said:

The contract is not one-sided. Guarantees are not one-sided. Both parties agreed to it. This includes the possibility of him getting cut or getting injured and cut. This is all in the contract and he agreed to it when he signed it. My problem is not with him trying to "maximize his earning potential". My problem is with his play. If he'd played well, I wouldn't mind us giving him more money and keeping him longer. 

 

Kenny Moore didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just like Wentz didn't play bad in just those 2 games. Just those 2 games happen to focus the attention of Colts fans.

 

I have no problem with players getting paid or holding out in order to get what they deserve. I had no problem with Aaron Rodgers holding out to get paid. Do you know why? Because he was the freaking MVP of the league two years in a row and he deserved to get paid. 

 

 

Well... it's not the only way he can. He has obviously made his wishes known in other ways before this and he has received pushback from the FO... otherwise he wouldn't be "soft" holding out. But again - no problem with any player holding out... I just don't believe it's warranted in this case, as his play doesn't convince me he deserves what he's asking for. 

 

I didn't call the contract one-sided. I called the sanctity of the contract one-sided. Teams can and do terminate contracts all the time, with ramifications that vary depending on the situation. But when players take even the mildest of steps to exercise some leverage, fans come with this 'honor your contract' stuff. It's hypocritical.

 

We all know that the true value of an NFL contract is found in its structure and guarantees. At this point in Kenny Moore's contract, he's openly exposed, and the Colts have all the options, because he has no remaining guaranteed money, and there's only a minimal negative cap penalty if they were to trade or release him. He also knows that every time he steps on the practice field, he's risking his ability to sign another contract. And he hit a Pro Bowl bonus last season, which is barely anything in comparison with NFL pay.

 

I also disagree with your general characterization of Kenny Moore. He didn't have his best season, but he was not bad all year long. He was bad in the last two games, but was still our third best defensive player all year. He's also a known locker room leader who has always given his best to the team. He is not Carson Wentz, and Carson Wentz was not scapegoated, so the whole bit about 'accountability' applying to players like Kenny Moore is a miss, IMO.

 

Aaron Rodgers is a great player, and his contract is deserved. He also let his team down at the end of the season, and he's clearly a selfish person and not so great of a teammate. And he's not at OTAs, not because he's hoping for a new contract, just because he doesn't want to be there. Kenny Moore is trying to balance being a good teammate with the business of the NFL. 

 

And when I said Moore is making his wishes known, I meant to the public. 

 

To the bolded, your comments seem to undermine that statement. And ultimately, players don't get new/restructured contracts just because their play warrants it. Contracts are about leverage. Kenny Moore has very little, and the only way he can try to shift the balance in his direction is to sit out OTAs. It's all business.

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8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


This is half the story.    There are almost no contracts that are fully guaranteed in the NFL.  A small handful.    It’s not baseball or basketball or hockey.   Players have almost no leverage.  
 

Fans are fine when the team has leverage, but HATE when the player has it.   Pretty one sided.   You’re free to support anyone, any side you want.   Just don’t be surprised when players resent fans for the lack of support. 

Who said anything about “fully”?  I didn’t.

 

What I said is that NFL contracts usually contain a certain amount of dollars that are guaranteed.  A team most certainly cannot just refuse to pay them…whether a player is cut or not.  They can pass them along to another team in a trade, of course.  There are options.

 

But, importantly, those options are reflected either in the player’s contract or in the CBA, if not both.

 

The point is:  BOTH sides to a contract are bound by law to honor the terms of legally permissible contracts.  And, frankly, it shouldn’t even require legal compulsion.  That’s just part of being a responsible citizen.

 

I cannot and will not support what Kenny is doing here.  I love the guy - great player, great person.  But even great people can make bush league moves.  And that’s what this is.

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7 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

To the bolded…

 

No, no, no and no…

 

There are plenty of people risking health, even their lives, for a lot less than these NFL players make.
  Not knowing the specifics of his contract I’d wager he’s already made millions?… This idea they HAVE to make millions of dollars for doing something they are absolutely privileged to do is a joke. 
 

That said, the OTAs are voluntary so, yeah…

 

Please spare me the 'players should be glad they get paid to play football' stuff. We're not comparing NFL players to regular people. 

 

The NFL is a multi billion dollar business, because people pay to see the games. The NFL has collectively bargained with the players to pay them a percentage of revenue. That's represented by these salaries. If you have a problem with those numbers or mechanisms, it's a different discussion, and it's not likely to be taken seriously when you're voluntarily participating on a website meant for fans of the league. If you were serious, you'd stop following pro sports. Yet, here you are.

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Kenny was one of the most important pieces over the last four years, and provided continuity during a stretch of this defense that did not have continuity...especially in the back seven. 

 

Chill people. 

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13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I didn't call the contract one-sided. I called the sanctity of the contract one-sided. Teams can and do terminate contracts all the time, with ramifications that vary depending on the situation. But when players take even the mildest of steps to exercise some leverage, fans come with this 'honor your contract' stuff. It's hypocritical.

 

We all know that the true value of an NFL contract is found in its structure and guarantees. At this point in Kenny Moore's contract, he's openly exposed, and the Colts have all the options, because he has no remaining guaranteed money, and there's only a minimal negative cap penalty if they were to trade or release him. He also knows that every time he steps on the practice field, he's risking his ability to sign another contract. And he hit a Pro Bowl bonus last season, which is barely anything in comparison with NFL pay.

 

I also disagree with your general characterization of Kenny Moore. He didn't have his best season, but he was not bad all year long. He was bad in the last two games. He's also a known locker room leader who has always given his best to the team. He is not Carson Wentz, and Carson Wentz was not scapegoated, so the whole bit about 'accountability' applying to players like Kenny Moore is a miss, IMO.

Why is accountability a miss in regards to Kenny Moore? Does he deserve to get rewarded with more money and more years for his play last year? What would it say to the rest of the team when you reward players for playing poorly and especially in the most important games of the season? 

 

Who should have this accountability thing be reserved for then and how should it be expressed? Does anyone on this team, in addition to Wentz, deserve any sort of "repercussions" for their role in the way the season ended? Or were we really just pretending that it wasn't just about Wentz? 

 

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Aaron Rodgers is a great player, and his contract is deserved. He also let his team down at the end of the season, and he's clearly a selfish person and not so great of a teammate. And he's not at OTAs, not because he's hoping for a new contract, just because he doesn't want to be there. Kenny Moore is trying to balance being a good teammate with the business of the NFL. 

 

And when I said Moore is making his wishes known, I meant to the public. 

 

To the bolded, your comments seem to undermine that statement. And ultimately, players don't get new/restructured contracts just because their play warrants it. Contracts are about leverage. Kenny Moore has very little, and the only way he can try to shift the balance in his direction is to sit out OTAs. It's all business.

I never said anything about Kenny Moore being a bad teammate or bad person. From everything I've seen he's well loved and respected in the team. This is not about his personality. This is about his play. It all boils down to his play. I just don't believe it warrants a new contract. And from the very fact that he's "sitting out" it seems like the FO at least to some degree agrees. 

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11 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

To the bolded…

 

No, no, no and no…

 

There are plenty of people risking health, even their lives, for a lot less than these NFL players make.
  Not knowing the specifics of his contract I’d wager he’s already made millions?… This idea they HAVE to make millions of dollars for doing something they are absolutely privileged to do is a joke. 
 

That said, the OTAs are voluntary so, yeah…

 

This argument isn't the one to make though. Sure, plenty of people are risking their health for a lot less but do you want to watch a welder play football? There is a value that the society has placed on this sport, and there are not many who get to the highest level. THIS is the highest level that only few make it to, so yeah, they get paid more.

Want to argue about it? Then place higher value on welding and trash collecting and nursing and all those other tough jobs that good folks are doing. Otherwise, the young man is arguing to get paid fair value, that's it.

 

Are they privileged to play football? Depends who you ask. It's a job that is very short. It's a job that YOU pay to go watch. I know it sounds harsh but it's the truth. Your society, my society has decided this sport is very important. There are few people in the whole world who can play it at a high professional level, so arguing that they shouldn't get paid big money in the thing that we all valued highly is not rational thought.

 

Let's instead argue about the value we (as society) place on football and entertainment. And if we think those are not valuable...then you can show it by not following the sport otherwise it's not a strong argument after all we're all here lusting after content :D and not at the hospital nodding our heads at how wonderfully that nurse is sewing up a stitch. Don't value football? Yeah right.

 

The day i stop valuing the sport, i'll drop it like a bad habit, and that day i'll feel free to complain about the value the rest of you are placing on it. Till then, i cant make or support that type of argument because it is plain ol wrong

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25 minutes ago, stitches said:

This IS the contract. The ability to cut a player after 1 year IS IN THE CONTRACT. The players agree to this! This IS honoring the contract. 

 

And that's why players hold out. Teams have the power and control, and the only way an individual player can wrest some of that power back for himself is to hold out for a new contract.

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11 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Ballard'll argue his case, and probably already has been arguing it. He wanted to see how far the guy was willing to go, and now it's public.

Ballard's actions will be no mystery. If he believes Kenny is worth what he's asking for then he will pay him. If he doesn't think so, then he won't and he'll cut or trade him if/when he can as long as he can get a replacement who he thinks can perform to the value he has given the position. 

This situation is not so much about how Ballard handles a player holding out, that part is 100% part of the nature of the business and Ballard has been around the business side for a long time so this isn't something new. The situation is more about what value Ballard places to the player and the position. That's what this will tell us. That's the curious part....from what we knew with the previous DC/defesnive philosophy, the slot corner was very important. If Bradley's defense emphasizes the value of the slot corner then Kenny is getting paid. If it doesn't, well the young man will get cut/traded when the 1st GOOD opportunity comes.

 

It's the nature of the business, but Ballard has always demonstrated a disciplined approach when it has come to assigning value to a player. If Moore thinks he's worth more than Ballard does, then I am intrigued to see what he does. 

 

Bradley did have Desmond King in LAC. I don't really recall who the nickel/slot CB was in SEA or JAC back in the day.  

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21 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

This idea they HAVE to make millions of dollars for doing something they are absolutely privileged to do is a joke. 

The path to the NFL is not paved with privilege, it is paved with extremely hard work that includes serious lifetime consequences to their bodies. A rich kid who gets to play golf 5 days a week from an early age, is a better example of privilege when it comes to making the pro tour. No offense, but poor example. 

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53 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

 

 

Kenny's getting some bad advice.  The only thing his weird little half holdout accomplished was to remind people how bad he sucked during the final two games - one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of the franchise. 

 

Congratulations, we had mostly forgotten about it.  

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1 hour ago, masterlock said:

A contract is a contract.

Not really.  I know they call them contracts but in the NFL they generally aren't guaranteed and the teams can cut players at will, so why should a player have to be the only side to honor it?  I have no problem with holdouts by players when the team has a lopsided control.

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Please spare me the 'players should be glad they get paid to play football' stuff. We're not comparing NFL players to regular people. 

 

The NFL is a multi billion dollar business, because people pay to see the games. The NFL has collectively bargained with the players to pay them a percentage of revenue. That's represented by these salaries. If you have a problem with those numbers or mechanisms, it's a different discussion, and it's not likely to be taken seriously when you're voluntarily participating on a website meant for fans of the league. If you were serious, you'd stop following pro sports. Yet, here you are.

I follow pro sports to watch pro sports, not to hear or read millionaires whining about wanting more money. They are privileged and need to keep that in mind. 
 

I realize this is very much a culture thing. I mean the ‘American Dream’ is basically money. If you aren’t a millionaire by 30 you’re failing at life…

 

I’m from a different culture and if I’d made half of what Moore has made so far I quit my job, buy a new house, invest the rest of my money and not work 9-5 ever again. 
 

.. And don’t say don’t compare NFL players to regular people. They don’t live in a different world than us and they are VERY privileged to play a GAME for a living while getting paid millions to do so. 

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4 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

It's the nature of the business, but Ballard has always demonstrated a disciplined approach when it has come to assigning value to a player. If Moore thinks he's worth more than Ballard does, then I am intrigued to see what he does. 

 

Bradley did have Desmond King in LAC. I don't really recall who the nickel/slot CB was in SEA or JAC back in the day.  

Yup. We're going to find out exactly what value Chris Ballard and his DC place on the position, and exactly how good they think Kenny is and can be.

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3 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

Kenny's getting some bad advice.  The only thing his weird little half holdout accomplished was to remind people how bad he sucked during the final two games - one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of the franchise. 

 

Congratulations, we had mostly forgotten about it.  

Let him sit. People forget that the Colts offered him his contract when he really hadn't done a lot. They saw promise and took a risk signing him to a new contract. They wanted to get a head of a situation like this. I am with Ballard on this one if they decide to let him sit out. 

46 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


You win the day!   Drop the Mic!!   Bravo!

 

Bothers me no end when fans are fine when teams cut players with years left on their contract, but are morally outraged when a player tries to exercise any leverage at all.  
 

I don’t know if we will ADD any more money, but the simplest, most straight forward thing to do is to guarantee Kenny’s remaining dollars.   That would help.  Whether it’s enough is another story. 

However he signed the contract.  Players know they rarely see the end of the contract that's why they get as much

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Just now, Colt.45 said:

Yup. We're going to find out exactly what value Chris Ballard and his DC place on the position, and exactly how good they think Kenny is and can be.

What’s interesting is there is a guy probably ready to step in with Rodgers. So will that make his value to the team less. Rodgers instincts are a lot like Moore’s but with a lot more speed.

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3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Why is accountability a miss in regards to Kenny Moore? Does he deserve to get rewarded with more money and more years for his play last year? What would it say to the rest of the team when you reward players for playing poorly and especially in the most important games of the season? 

 

Who should have this accountability thing be reserved for then and how should it be expressed? Does anyone on this team, in addition to Wentz, deserve any sort of "repercussions" for their role in the way the season ended? Or were we really just pretending that it wasn't just about Wentz? 

 

I never said anything about Kenny Moore being a bad teammate or bad person. From everything I've seen he's well loved and respected in the team. This is not about his personality. This is about his play. It all boils down to his play. I just don't believe it warrants a new contract. And from the very fact that he's "sitting out" it seems like the FO at least to some degree agrees. 

 

You're boiling a player who's been pretty good for the team for several years down to his worst moments, and I think that's pretty sucky.

 

Accountability should be expressed by requiring players to compete and perform, and when they are incapable of doing so, they are no longer with the team. Accountability means 'we were bad at LT, and now we have a new LT.' It means 'we didn't have a good pass rush, and now we have new pass rushers.' 'Our QB held us back, and now we have a new QB.' 

 

Accountability does not mean get rid of any player who disappointed you in any remote way throughout the season, and slam the door in the face of anyone who wasn't a superstar. Kenny Moore had some bad games; Carson Wentz was apparently unresponsive to coaching. They don't even belong in the same conversation.

 

Your response is why his standing as a teammate is relevant. You're burying him for trying to get a new contract, when he's exercising his collectively bargained choice to not practice in OTAs in the mildest way possible. You won't acknowledge that this is simply the business, and his decision in this matter is the only way a player in his position -- still in his physical prime, two years left on his deal but no guaranteed money -- can maximize his earning potential. 

 

Like I said, I'm fine with the Colts telling him no, let's talk next year. I'm also fine with him not being happy about it, and not risking his earning potential in non-mandatory practices. When we get into mandatory activities, I'd feel a little differently, because he didn't have a great season last year, but I still understand his position and I think his argument that he's underpaid is reasonable.

 

Either way, it's the business. And fans saying stuff like 'get your butt on the field and honor your contract' is incredibly narrow minded, and oblivious to the factors involved. That would be true even if Kenny Moore wasn't a good player.

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6 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

Not really.  I know they call them contracts but in the NFL they generally aren't guaranteed and the teams can cut players at will, so why should a player have to be the only side to honor it?  I have no problem with holdouts by players when the team has a lopsided control.

Cutting a player is not a breach of contract.

 

But neither is holding out of OTAs, which is all KM has done thus far.  These are optional workouts.  So he’s not violating his contract at this point.

 

That said, I really hope that Kenny does uphold his contractual obligations.  And he should do so throughout the remainder of his current contract.

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6 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I follow pro sports to watch pro sports, not to hear or read millionaires whining about wanting more money. They are privileged and need to keep that in mind. 
 

I realize this is very much a culture thing. I mean the ‘American Dream’ is basically money. If you aren’t a millionaire by 30 you’re failing at life…

 

I’m from a different culture and if I’d made half of what Moore has made so far I quit my job, buy a new house, invest the rest of my money and not work 9-5 ever again. 
 

.. And don’t say don’t compare NFL players to regular people. They don’t live in a different world than us and they are VERY privileged to play a GAME for a living while getting paid millions to do so. 

 

Maybe you should have been a pro athlete then...

 

 

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I'm a big KM fan, but it does not matter. You signed the contract, now you need to play through it. He did not outperform his contrract last year, inflation or not. To be honest I don't care if they say no and he sits out. Slippery slope to start renogitating contracts before they are even halfway done. 

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3 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Let him sit. People forget that the Colts offered him his contract when he really hadn't done a lot. They saw promise and took a risk signing him to a new contract. They wanted to get a head of a situation like this. I am with Ballard on this one if they decide to let him sit out. 

However he signed the contract.  Players know they rarely see the end of the contract that's why they get as much


You haven’t even noticed that the Colts appear to be fine with this.   The only person to comment is Frank and he’s appears ok.   He understands.   Odds are that means Ballard understands too.   
 

It’s just the fans who support the team but rarely support the player.   How sad. 

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4 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

What’s interesting is there is a guy probably ready to step in with Rodgers. So will that make his value to the team less. Rodgers instincts are a lot like Moore’s but with a lot more speed.

Exactly. Even if Rodgers isn't an immediate replacement, Kenny and especially his agent (if he or she is a good agent) will have noted not only the situation in the league, but also the situation in the ball club. If you know you have someone who might lead to you getting cut, then you want to outplay them AND maximize your earnings because the way the sport works is simple. The team will move on from Kenny once a better option presents itself. Better players have had it happen to them.

Fair value. Business. Those are the key terms we need to keep in mind.

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Just now, NewColtsFan said:


You haven’t even noticed that the Colts appear to be fine with this.   The only person to comment is Frank and he’s appears ok.   He understands.   Odds are that means Ballard understands too.   
 

It’s just the fans who support the team but rarely support the player.   How sad. 

It's not about supporting a single player. The team comes first. Kenny did not outperform his contract last year, he got cooked repeatedly and was often the main target of offenses running option routes on him. Renfrow cooked him, maybe renfrow should get a pay increase? Sounds ridicilous. if we start paying people before their contract is up it will continue to happen. 

 

Don't sign a contract if you don't intend to honor it. 

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20 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

The path to the NFL is not paved with privilege, it is paved with extremely hard work that includes serious lifetime consequences to their bodies. A rich kid who gets to play golf 5 days a week from an early age, is a better example of privilege when it comes to making the pro tour. No offense, but poor example. 

I’ve never said it wasn’t difficult and and it didn’t require hard work. 
 

I’m saying they a doing something millions of people would give their left nut to do and they are getting paid millions to do it.
  There are HUNDREDS of jobs that are easily more demanding on the body and the mind than playing football and those are not paid anywhere near the same. Add to that NFL players have access to multitudes of experts that help them recover each day, week, month…

 

 

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14 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

Kenny's getting some bad advice.  The only thing his weird little half holdout accomplished was to remind people how bad he sucked during the final two games - one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of the franchise. 

 

Congratulations, we had mostly forgotten about it.  


What bad advice?    Frank seems ok.   The Colts were not caught off guard.   This session  is voluntary, so Kenny has the right to do what he’s doing.   I don’t see any bad advice here.  At least, not yet. 

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5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Maybe you should have been a pro athlete then...

 

 

Would’ve loved to, but I severely injured my left leg and left shoulder working as a carpenter when I was 19 and I can’t run effectively anymore. Too bad I didn’t get paid millions for putting my health and body at risk…

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3 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

It's not about supporting a single player. The team comes first. Kenny did not outperform his contract last year, he got cooked repeatedly and was often the main target of offenses running option routes on him. Renfrow cooked him, maybe renfrow should get a pay increase? Sounds ridicilous. if we start paying people before their contract is up it will continue to happen. 

 

Don't sign a contract if you don't intend to honor it. 

Yeah, that's not how any of this works. At some point, you have to understand that. This so called contract and honor you're talking about will mean jack the day the club decides it's done with the player. Whether because of injury, or age, or performance. They will move from the player and not sweat it.

 

Kenny was getting cooked, yet he made the pro bowl. Yet Colts fans had been happy to have him on the team till roughly a couple hours ago when the news broke. Yeah, lets not talk about honoring contracts, that's nonsense talk, 100%

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7 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I’ve never said it wasn’t difficult and and it didn’t require hard work. 
 

I’m saying they a doing something millions of people would give their left nut to do and they are getting paid millions to do it.
  There HUNDREDS of jobs that are easily more demanding on the body and the mind than playing football and those are not paid anywhere near the same. Add to that NFL players have access to multitudes of experts that help them recover each day, week, month…

 

 

Those millions of people couldn't make it there for whatever reason. You're arguing against yourself with that point. Millions of people would give their left nut yet CANNOT because of injury or inability or whatever. Are millions of people trying to be carpenters?

 

Answer honestly.

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