Did the Colts inquire about Brown?

[TDewar1987]

52 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Maybe. My feeling is Ballard would likely call Brian Decker before he would call Kevin Colbert.

Ahh, yeah Brian Decker! We havent heard much about him lately. You're probably right though.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 2/22/2019 at 11:35 AM, runthepost said:

Winning cures everything 

 

If you bring in Big Pay, Big Name (and Big Chest) players, you_must win for losing divides and rips apart the locker room, creates pointing of fingers and (adult language) yelling, destroys the fabric of brotherhood and togetherness that builds a team working together toward the same goal.

 

I learned this from at least 3 GM's (Bill Polian, Phil Savage, Mark Dominik) and is every GM's worst nightmare.

 

Drafting, growing, and paying your own along the way assures they know the culture and are a fit.  Those that drift don't get an offer to re-sign.  FA's are to fit needs, but do not have to be Superstars.

 

To me, if you can fill true bare bones spots / needs with value and performing players via FA, you can then draft BPA in place of reaching for need each round.  But you don't have to 'buy' the best/most elite FA's .  Why are they even on the market to begin with?

[ColtsBlueFL]

Ahhhh, found it. Ballard knows this too-

 

“When you pay a player who has not earned it, who is not a great worker, who doesn’t make an impact in the locker room, [players] know it,” Ballard said. “They know who’s earned it. … I’ve never been around a good team in this league where the locker room didn’t hold each other accountable, didn’t put pressure on each other to win. That’s what you have to have. They know. They know.”  Chris Ballard, GM  -  Indianapolis Colts

[jskinnz]

3 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

If you bring in Big Pay, Big Name (and Big Chest) players, you_must win for losing divides and rips apart the locker room, creates pointing of fingers and (adult language) yelling, destroys the fabric of brotherhood and togetherness that builds a team working together toward the same goal.

 

I learned this from at least 3 GM's (Bill Polian, Phil Savage, Mark Dominik) and is every GM's worst nightmare.

 

Drafting, growing, and paying your own along the way assures they know the culture and are a fit.  Those that drift don't get an offer to re-sign.  FA's are to fit needs, but do not have to be Superstars.

 

To me, if you can fill true bare bones spots / needs with value and performing players via FA, you can then draft BPA in place of reaching for need each round.  But you don't have to 'buy' the best/most elite FA's .  Why are they even on the market to begin with?

 

Holy smokes - what an outstanding post. Well done. 

[Moosejawcolt]

On 2/22/2019 at 4:21 PM, Indyfan4life said:

I think it’s funny, seeing people so against this. Guarantee the second we sign him and we’re putting up 40+ points a game everyone would change their minds. 

 

I also think once he got out of that locker room, his personality and everything would change. Roethlisberger seems to be the problem there, not AB or Bell. 

Ben has his own problems and is a * bag. However, have u followed AB's career and personal life over the last year or two?  It is a gong show. Ben and AB  r both to throw away!!!

[John Waylon]

Ballard took a look at Browns twitter and called the Steelers, laughed, and hung up the phone. 

[NannyMcafee]

I wish that the countless threads started about Bell and Brown actually had legitimate Information on them coming here or not instead of everyone asking the same question over and over "would Ballard be interested".... 

[MikeCurtis]

18 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

To me, if you can fill true bare bones spots / needs with value and performing players via FA, you can then draft BPA in place of reaching for need each round.  But you don't have to 'buy' the best/most elite FA's .  Why are they even on the market to begin with?

One of the most intelligent posts in a month

[jskinnz]

19 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

If you bring in Big Pay, Big Name (and Big Chest) players, you_must win for losing divides and rips apart the locker room, creates pointing of fingers and (adult language) yelling, destroys the fabric of brotherhood and togetherness that builds a team working together toward the same goal.

 

I learned this from at least 3 GM's (Bill Polian, Phil Savage, Mark Dominik) and is every GM's worst nightmare.

 

Drafting, growing, and paying your own along the way assures they know the culture and are a fit.  Those that drift don't get an offer to re-sign.  FA's are to fit needs, but do not have to be Superstars.

 

To me, if you can fill true bare bones spots / needs with value and performing players via FA, you can then draft BPA in place of reaching for need each round.  But you don't have to 'buy' the best/most elite FA's .  Why are they even on the market to begin with?

 

I have to come back to this post for a couple of reasons.

 

You mentioned Polian, Savage and Dominik as guys you learned from in hearing their comments.  Agree with all of them.  The other person I would add to that list is Pat Kirwan on NFL Radio and his Moving the Chains show.  I find him to be both entertaining and incredibly informative in how he thinks.  If you have not found him, he is worth the listen.

 

The other thing is the use of free agency.  I saw this tweeted the other day.  In the entire 2018 veteran free agency class, only 4 players made the pro bowl and one of those was Ebron.  He was only one of two position players.  The others were specialists.  To me that is directly in line with what you say above - fill true needs in free agency with good value players and then go with a BPA philosophy for the draft.  Under the radar signings like Denico Autry are what makes a successful FA class.  The big splash signings have a larger miss ratio than I am comfortable with.  

 

 

[aaron11]

cap space is an advantage we have over other teams.  we dont have any particular advantage in the draft, especially picking 26th

 

i wouldn't trade for brown, but i would be active in free agency.  i worry building through the draft will take too long, and luck will retire without winning a super bowl

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

I have to come back to this post for a couple of reasons.

 

You mentioned Polian, Savage and Dominik as guys you learned from in hearing their comments.  Agree with all of them.  The other person I would add to that list is Pat Kirwan on NFL Radio and his Moving the Chains show.  I find him to be both entertaining and incredibly informative in how he thinks.  If you have not found him, he is worth the listen.

 

My favorite of all... PK!!  (Lives near me too down in SW Florida area)

 

It's where I have my forum motto (underneath my forum name)- Moving the Chains from.  Their SiriusXM NFL radio show. (Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller)

 

They also had a ReallFootballNetwork website and RFN Facebook home, but I don't think they keep them up anymore.

 

https://www.facebook.com/realfootballnetwork/

 

Quote

The other thing is the use of free agency.  I saw this tweeted the other day.  In the entire 2018 veteran free agency class, only 4 players made the pro bowl and one of those was Ebron.  He was only one of two position players.  The others were specialists.  To me that is directly in line with what you say above - fill true needs in free agency with good value players and then go with a BPA philosophy for the draft.  Under the radar signings like Denico Autry are what makes a successful FA class.  The big splash signings have a larger miss ratio than I am comfortable with. 

 

We all somewhere deep inside want that most elite player.  But when all is said and done, it is better left as dream IMO.   I like Ballard's approach so far.

[aaron11]

the last two super bowl winners did make big moves in the offseason.  gilmore and  Jeffrey

 

there were some reports the colts wanted jeffrey too, but he chose philly  

[richard pallo]

35 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

the last two super bowl winners did make big moves in the offseason.  gilmore and  Jeffrey

 

there were some reports the colts wanted jeffrey too, but he chose philly  

 Maybe things will change this year now that Luck has reemerged.  We can only hope. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 2/22/2019 at 5:22 PM, AwesomeAustin said:

The fact that we put athletes in situations where they should be role models is beyond ridiculous. Just bc a guy can run fast, jump high, throw a ball far etc...doesn’t mean he is obligated to live a righteous life and set examples for society. These are typically kids that didn’t have much or cane from blue collar homes and are now millionaires.  They should live life and be able to do whatever the heck they want to do. 

 

Wrong we are not the Patriots  ridiculous would be ignoring facts just to WIN once again that may be the Patriot way its not the Colts way .

 

[King Colt]

Nine draft picks this coming season. Ballard should be able to bring a player on board that can catch a  football. 

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Nine draft picks this coming season. Ballard should be able to bring a player on board that can catch a  football. 

Although getting one of Browns caliber will be tough. 

Not saying they should trade for him, but it would be an instant improvement of the team.  

[NewColtsFan]

3 teams out of 32 inquire about Brown,  and the question is asked.....   are the Colts one of them?

 

Statistically speaking,  the odds say no.   Less than 10 percent.

 

But if you follow Ballard at all,  the odds also say no. 

 

Trade high draft pick(s) AND also write a new contract to make sure Brown is the highest, or one of the highest paid receivers in the game?     Does that sound like Ballard?     I think we can all sleep well believing the answer is very likely a "no."

 

[Myles]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

3 teams out of 32 inquire about Brown,  and the question is asked.....   are the Colts one of them?

 

Statistically speaking,  the odds say no.   Less than 10 percent.

 

But if you follow Ballard at all,  the odds also say no. 

 

Trade high draft pick(s) AND also write a new contract to make sure Brown is the highest, or one of the highest paid receivers in the game?     Does that sound like Ballard?     I think we can all sleep well believing the answer is very likely a "no."

 

I agree, it doesn't go with his style.   Also, signing an over 30 WR to a contract that Brown will probably expect to be long and big may not be a good idea. 

However, if not for Browns attitude, I'd be on board with signing a WR as skilled as Brown to a long term deal.   Getting 4-5 years of his production would be huge.   But again, his attitutude may trump the benefit.  

 

I do hope that Ballard brings in a proven talent.   We have some young unproven WR's already, I don't know that bringing in another rookie won't just clog it up further.   Of course thet could be different if a stud is still available at our 1st round spot.  

I'd even be OK with Moncrief.  

I'd be thrilled with Demaryious Thomas, but only if he goes through the looks and ends up realizing that he would have to sign a lower contract.  

[Mr.ZapRowsdower]

On 2/23/2019 at 12:22 PM, MikeCurtis said:

I dont see either in a Colts uniform next 

 

Give me Bennie Snell, as that big back that completes the rotation

Bennie Snell is a name that I haven't heard much of on here. He has all the tools, great personality, locker room type guy just like Ballard wants. Pair him with Mack behind this line and sweet Lord what a duo. 

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Myles said:

I agree, it doesn't go with his style.   Also, signing an over 30 WR to a contract that Brown will probably expect to be long and big may not be a good idea. 

However, if not for Browns attitude, I'd be on board with signing a WR as skilled as Brown to a long term deal.   Getting 4-5 years of his production would be huge.   But again, his attitutude may trump the benefit.  

 

I do hope that Ballard brings in a proven talent.   We have some young unproven WR's already, I don't know that bringing in another rookie won't just clog it up further.   Of course thet could be different if a stud is still available at our 1st round spot.  

I'd even be OK with Moncrief.  

I'd be thrilled with Demaryious Thomas, but only if he goes through the looks and ends up realizing that he would have to sign a lower contract.  

 

I don't see Ballard gambling that Thomas can remain healthy and productive.   For whatever reason, he's been breaking down the last few years and not putting up his past numbers.

 

I see Ballard signing some free agent WR.    Whether it's Williams or Humphries,  or Tate or someone else.    But someone whose production has remained consistant.    Regretably,  that's not Thomas. 

 

And then I also see Ballard drafting a WR.   With a likely Day 2 pick, though it's possible he might wait till the 4th round,  I don't think that's likely.     Pick 59 or 89 seem the most likely to me.

 

Just my two cents,  and, as I like to add,  often not worth that much!     

[pacolts56]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:20 PM, Nesjan3 said:

Steelers say 3 GM's have contacted them about Brown. Given the Colts glaring need for another WR and TY's connection with Brown going back to college...do you think Ballard is interested  and might have been one of those Gm's?

 

Also how would you feel about having Brown on the team? I personally would not be willing to overlook the "Diva" personality but lets entertain the idea.

No.... I don’t think we were one of those teams.... and I hope Ballard instead targets Humphries.

 

And I’d be far more entertained if the Steelers ultimately aren’t able to trade Brown.... leaving their locker room in flames. 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:10 PM, Boiler_Colt said:

Le'veon allegedly ballooned up to 260 lbs this year while he was away. If true its a bad look for a guy banking on himself.

 

Nothing a little HGH can't fix, or just hook him up with McGuire/Bonds. 

[lollygagger8]

This is getting pretty ridiculous. How does this keep coming up and coming up and coming up!?! 

 

Can mods just please delete anything in the Colts section that has Brown or Bell in it..... pretty please? 

[Coffeedrinker]

What strikes me as funny is so many posters are all for talented players getting 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or 5th) for things like, violating the leagues substance abuse policy, beating up women, etc. but a player bad mouths his team and he's a cancer in the locker room or a guy doesn't want to risk the rest of his career on a one year deal and he's a prima donna that has no place in football.

 

The fact is, the Colts would be a better team with AB as a receiver.  The Colts would be a better team with Bell on the team.  But it's most likely not going to happen because it does not fit into the way Ballard wants to build his team.

 

But to act like these guys are anything but elite players unhappy with their current situation is way beyond the border of ridiculous.

[#12.]

According to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, the Steelers have only ruled out New England and the AFC North as trade partners.  If they will trade him here, I would at least consider it.  The guy is HOF talent, and we're talking about an offense that couldn't get a receiver open and scored 6 points in KC.

 

Brown is good friends with TY and Luck is a different type of guy.  I have a feeling it would work.

 

One last thing - this is a business, and acquiring Brown would generate a lot of excitement and sell many seats.  

[crazycolt1]

6 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

What strikes me as funny is so many posters are all for talented players getting 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or 5th) for things like, violating the leagues substance abuse policy, beating up women, etc. but a player bad mouths his team and he's a cancer in the locker room or a guy doesn't want to risk the rest of his career on a one year deal and he's a prima donna that has no place in football.

 

The fact is, the Colts would be a better team with AB as a receiver.  The Colts would be a better team with Bell on the team.  But it's most likely not going to happen because it does not fit into the way Ballard wants to build his team.

 

But to act like these guys are anything but elite players unhappy with their current situation is way beyond the border of ridiculous.

Not wanting a player who quit on their team and another player who cares about money more than his team is ridiculous? 

It was the players themselves who voted on the franchise tag and now want to balk on it. They accepted it in the bargaining agreement. If it's not liked do something about it in the next agreement. That is what people do in real life.

Then we have fans who don't care about what someone signed and agreed to but call those who do ridiculous. That is you.

[aaron11]

15 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Not wanting a player who quit on their team and another player who cares about money more than his team is ridiculous? 

It was the players themselves who voted on the franchise tag and now want to balk on it. They accepted it in the bargaining agreement. If it's not liked do something about it in the next agreement. That is what people do in real life.

Then we have fans who don't care about what someone signed and agreed to but call those who do ridiculous. That is you.

i have no problems with what bell did.  its a business for the players too, and holding out is the only way they can fight the tag.  he did play under the tag once too and they ran the **** out of him that year

 

getting tagged twice isnt really fair to the player, they should only be able to do it once imo 

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

i have no problems with what bell did.  its a business for the players too, and holding out is the only way they can fight the tag.  he did play under the tag once too and they ran the **** out of him that year

 

getting tagged twice isnt really fair to the player, they should only be able to do it once imo 

Holding out is not the way to fight the tag. That should have been addressed when negotiating the bargaining agreement contract. When you sign your name to the contract you accepted the good with the bad. The players want union protection then want to balk on what was negotiated for them. The players signed the deal.

[aaron11]

11 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Holding out is not the way to fight the tag. That should have been addressed when negotiating the bargaining agreement contract. When you sign your name to the contract you accepted the good with the bad. The players want union protection then want to balk on what was negotiated for them. The players signed the deal.

 

he agreed to a contract, not to be tagged twice after words.  he never signed so the second tag either, so that was never officially agreed upon 

 

its not part of the deal when they are drafted, they cant even know how much money it would be for that far in advance.  maybe he doesnt want to be with the steelers anymore either  

[Hoose]

29 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

i have no problems with what bell did.  its a business for the players too, and holding out is the only way they can fight the tag.  he did play under the tag once too and they ran the **** out of him that year

 

getting tagged twice isnt really fair to the player, they should only be able to do it once imo 

I completely agree with this take on Bell and his situation.  He's likely not going to make the $ he wants, but the Steelers did not do right by him either. He was the most important player on that team not named Rothlesberger, and they refused to pay him. He was worth a huge two year deal if nothing else. 2 years, $36m. A fair price for what he meant to them. 

Brown is another story entirely. He's a prima donna who quit on his team. For that reason alone, does anyone seriously believe the Colts would bring him in? Not a chance. His immense baggage far outweighs his significant talent. 

[coltsfeva]

   Part of Brown’s dissatisfaction was, he wasn’t getting the ball as much, after Juju Smith-Schuster started getting more balls thrown his way. That attitude won’t work here. 

     Although talented, Brown is 31 and a shade under 6’

     The biggest concern with a guy like that is , how he has responded to adversity and will he be divisive, should the Colts lose a game or two, in which he wasn’t the main target?

       There’s something underlying this issue: we are mesmerized by “names” in our society from what car we drive, sneakers we wear or players we want on our team. 

        But there will be new names on the Colts soon, some many of us will never have heard of. They could make names for themselves. And there are some pretty talented players on our roster now, that are making a name for themselves. (We don’t know how good Cain will be but, he could be that #2/1, we’ve wanted.)

          I heard podcasts where Kravitz, Chappell and Venturi all wanted Brown and said how overrated culture was.

          Contrary to media perception, Ballard has brought in talent through FA, but he will not overpay for a player who might be a disruption, no matter how talented he is.

          Bravo CB!

        

[riftastic28]

Why wouldn’t you want a top 3 WR ? I’d even sign bell. I’d like to see us get both . They would be a serious threat . Also they would be Super Bowl favorite.  But I doubt they do that . I see them going the traditional route threw the draft . Maybe luck gets 1 ring . 

[Coffeedrinker]

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Not wanting a player who quit on their team and another player who cares about money more than his team is ridiculous? 

Fans can want or not want any player they want.  Acting like either of those guys would not make the Colts better is the ridiculous part.

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

It was the players themselves who voted on the franchise tag and now want to balk on it. They accepted it in the bargaining agreement. If it's not liked do something about it in the next agreement. That is what people do in real life.

The flip side of that is also true.  They, the owners, accepted the fact that the player has the right to sign or not sign the franchise tag offer and now they want to balk at it.  They accepted the bargaining agreement.  If it's not liked do something about it in the next agreement.  That is what people do in real life.

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Then we have fans who don't care about what someone signed and agreed to but call those who do ridiculous. That is you.

Actually that is not what I did, explained above.  Hopefully now you can see the difference.

[ColtJax]

We could use a running back to work with what we have, but Bell is too expensive and would want too much up front. Give me a guy like Atlanta's Coleman, he'd be a fantastic supplement. AB would be a great addition, but with his attitude (just signed his extension and already demanding it gets ripped up) and his up front demands I'd pass on him too. These type of guys seldom work out and usually cause the team locker room to meltdown.. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

22 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

What strikes me as funny is so many posters are all for talented players getting 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or 5th) for things like, violating the leagues substance abuse policy, beating up women, etc. but a player bad mouths his team and he's a cancer in the locker room or a guy doesn't want to risk the rest of his career on a one year deal and he's a prima donna that has no place in football.

 A tiny bit of rebuttal-

 

"Divided we fall"...  they each let down their teammates to the point they went public about it-

 

https://www.12up.com/posts/6163406-steelers-o-linemen-destroy-le-veon-bell-for-not-showing-up-with-ruthless-quotes

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ego-ruined-antonio-brown-with-the-steelers-will-it-poison-his-trade-value-too/2019/02/13/b48074f8-2fb1-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed1e868d2c70

 

 

Quote

The fact is, the Colts would be a better team with AB as a receiver.  The Colts would be a better team with Bell on the team. 

 

 

I think so too, for only as long as they produce to the level of the enormous paychecks they seek.  Nobody knows how long that would be, before either injury, declining skills, or contract unhappiness syndrome (or a combination) sets in again.

 

Quote

But it's most likely not going to happen because it does not fit into the way Ballard wants to build his team.

 

GM's look for both short AND long term ramifications of moves.  He has to get them 'integrated into the culture.  Can their Ego's allow them to do that, and not cause a locker room riff trying to be 'top dog' immediately on arrival?   Or become dissatisfied on some level (targets play calls, etc...) I'm not so sure...  and that could potentially be a coach/GM killer.

 

Quote

But to act like these guys are anything but elite players unhappy with their current situation is way beyond the border of ridiculous.

 

They are superior talent guys, no question. But ...

 

15 hours ago, aaron11 said:

i have no problems with what bell did.  its a business for the players too, and holding out is the only way they can fight the tag.  he did play under the tag once too and they ran the **** out of him that year

 

I have no issues with Bell, he is using his only means to an end.  The franchise tag has morphed. Originally, Pat Bowlen would not agree to a CBA deal that included the creation of free agency and the potential installation of a salary cap, saying he 'Had to be able to keep John Elway".  It was designed to also allow additional long term contract negotiating time without losing the player.

 

14 hours ago, aaron11 said:

he agreed to a contract, not to be tagged twice after words.  he never signed so the second tag either, so that was never officially agreed upon 

 

its not part of the deal when they are drafted, they cant even know how much money it would be for that far in advance.

 

All teams and players are subject to the terms of the CBA.

Read the preamble and Article 10 here-

 

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

 

Article 10 in the NFL’s Collective Bargaining Agreement covers the use of franchise and transition tags.  By becoming an NFL player, you have acknowledged to potential for Article 10 (Tag) to be used. Likewise, the players can't be forced to sign the tender either.  But teams can hold his rights (preventing him from getting paid and also prevents talks with other teams) until the next new season begins.

 

This is why it was a leveraging tool to hammer out a deal.

 

Quote

getting tagged twice isnt really fair to the player, they should only be able to do it once imo 

 

The 1st time tagged, they get guaranteed top 5 average of their position, or a 120% pay increase, whichever is greater.  The 2nd tag gets them another guaranteed 120% increase over their last tag pay. The 3rd time gets them an additional 144% increase, or top 5 average pay of the highest position (Quarterback) whichever is greater.  So it's not a long term deal, but was designed to get a deal done.  It'schanged. What originally was an 'honor', has now been coined the 'prison tag'.

 

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The flip side of that is also true.  They, the owners, accepted the fact that the player has the right to sign or not sign the franchise tag offer and now they want to balk at it.  They accepted the bargaining agreement. 

 

They all abide by it.  Steelers aren't tagging Bell again, they'll accept the comp pick next year.  Bell can hold out, and teams can use CBA agreed remedies too.

 

Quote

If it's not liked do something about it in the next agreement.

 

I highly doubt anything will happen. Why?  As we have seen, it is way too valuable for teams. The players would have to give up something huge in exchange. They won't because, let's face it, it only affects a few players every year.  In addition, getting a guaranteed top-of-the-line one-year contract is not a tearjerker story. I'm going to say it affects an average of about 6 players or so per year.  I can't see an extended holdout/lockout over changing the Franchise Tag.  Other items, yes. The tag? No.

 

[Coffeedrinker]

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 A tiny bit of rebuttal-

 

"Divided we fall"...  they each let down their teammates to the point they went public about it-

 

https://www.12up.com/posts/6163406-steelers-o-linemen-destroy-le-veon-bell-for-not-showing-up-with-ruthless-quotes

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ego-ruined-antonio-brown-with-the-steelers-will-it-poison-his-trade-value-too/2019/02/13/b48074f8-2fb1-11e9-813a-0ab2f17e305b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed1e868d2c70

I can almost guarantee a new team will not hold any of that against Bell or Brown.  So it's kind of a moot point.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I think so too, for only as long as they produce to the level of the enormous paychecks they seek.  Nobody knows how long that would be, before either injury, declining skills, or contract unhappiness syndrome (or a combination) sets in again.

The same can be said for any player whether they are a free agent or home grown talent.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

GM's look for both short AND long term ramifications of moves.  He has to get them 'integrated into the culture.  Can their Ego's allow them to do that, and not cause a locker room riff trying to be 'top dog' immediately on arrival?   Or become dissatisfied on some level (targets play calls, etc...) I'm not so sure...  and that could potentially be a coach/GM killer.

To the first part.... umm duh.  Like I stated, I don't think it will happen because that is not the way CB wants to build his team.  I'm fine with it, I personally think that is the best way to build long term success in today's NFL.

 

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

They are superior talent guys, no question. But ...

There is no but, bot LB and AB are superior talents and whomever signs them will instantly be a better team.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

I have no issues with Bell, he is using his only means to an end.  The franchise tag has morphed. Originally, Pat Bowlen would not agree to a CBA deal that included the creation of free agency and the potential installation of a salary cap, saying he 'Had to be able to keep John Elway".  It was designed to also aloow additional contract negotiating time without losing the player.

It hasn't morphed, it has always been a way for a team to maintain rights to a player.  

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

All teams and players are subject to the terms of the CBA. Article 10 in the NFL’s Collective Bargaining Agreement covers the use of franchise and transition tags.  By becoming an NFL player, you have acknowledged to potential for the Tag to be used.

Again... duh.  But just because a team tags a player does not mean the player has to sign the franchise offer.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

The 1st time tagged, they get guaranteed top 5 average of their position, or a 120% pay increase, whichever is greater.  The 2nd tag gets them another guaranteed 120% increase over their last tag pay. The 3rd time gets them an additional 144% increase, or top 5 average pay of the highest position (Quarterback) whichever is greater.  So it's not a long term deal, but was designed to get a deal done.  It'd changed.

Thanks for the refresher.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

They all abide by it.  Steelers aren't tagging Bell again, they'll accept the comp pick next year.  Bell can hold out, and teams can use CBA agreed remedies too.

I'm not sure this makes sense, Steelers won't tag Bell again so he will be a free agent, no need for Bell to hold out.

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

I highly doubt anything will happen. Why?  As we have seen, it is way too valuable for teams. The players would have to give up something huge in exchange. They won't because, let's face it, it only affects a few players every year.  In addition, getting a guaranteed top-of-the-line one-year contract is not a tearjerker story. I'm going to say it affects an average of about 6 players or so per year.  I can't see an extended holdout/lockout over changing the Franchise Tag.  Other items, yes. The tag? No.

 

I don't think anyone thinks it will change.

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I can almost guarantee a new team will not hold any of that against Bell or Brown.  So it's kind of a moot point.

 

I disagree.  Here's just a few known issues Brown's stardom and entitlement have created-

 

"[Tomlin] essentially told the group, we'll tolerate it now because of what he brings on the field, but the minute production stops, you don't overlook it," said one ex-Steeler who played with Brown for three seasons, recalling a story that multiple players confirmed.

"This has been brewing for years," one ex-teammate said of Brown's issues. "It's just now coming to the surface."  Even though the production was still there too.

 

Training camp is a slog. Every morning, Steelers players drag their sizable frames out of modest Saint Vincent College dorm rooms. Vets might get a room to themselves.
Brown had something more: an Airbnb-style rental home close to campus.

They'd see him get dropped off in a black Mercedes or another luxury car sometime in the morning. Bryant said he never visited Brown's rental house but knew he had it.
Added an ex-Steeler who played multiple seasons with Brown: "We even admired him for it, like, 'How does he pull that off?'"

 

Several say Brown routinely showed up late to team meetings that set up the upcoming game week. If he was loosely on time, he might be the last one to walk through the door. One player went as far to say he didn't see Brown once in the Wednesday morning meetings during his one season with the team.

 

Brown left a walk-through after the Steelers wanted to run a hot read again and sent another player into the lineup, a source close to the situation told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.
Brown talked with Roethlisberger afterward, telling the quarterback he felt underappreciated and had issues with people in the organization, the source told Schefter.

 

Will Johnson, a Steelers fullback from 2012 to 2015, said everyone is not treated the same in the NFL. "Players are paid to make plays," he said.
"As the leash gets longer, [Brown] gets the feeling that he can do whatever he wants," said the ex-Steeler who played with Brown for multiple seasons. "That's where Tomlin might have wished he would have squashed this earlier."

 

I'm certain if we even had any interest, Ballard has then talked to Colbert and Reich to Tomlin about these and the nonpublic issues.  Due diligence.

 

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The same can be said for any player whether they are a free agent or home grown talent.

To the first part.... umm duh.  Like I stated, I don't think it will happen because that is not the way CB wants to build his team.  I'm fine with it, I personally think that is the best way to build long term success in today's NFL.

 

FA's you've spent large sums on.  Homegrown talent are cheap contracts.  They can see who fits in and gets that lucrative 2nd contract.

 

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

There is no but, bot LB and AB are superior talents and whomever signs them will instantly be a better team.

 

But They (mainly Brown) can disrupt a locker room.  He already has.

 

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

It hasn't morphed, it has always been a way for a team to maintain rights to a player.  

Again... duh.  But just because a team tags a player does not mean the player has to sign the franchise offer.

 

It has, it was originally for extending negotiating time for a long term contract.  Now it is to keep a FA from getting market value and getting another year or two work from them without having any long term deals negotiated.

 

If a player doesn't sign, he doesn't get paid.  Bell knows this.

 

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Thanks for the refresher.

I'm not sure this makes sense, Steelers won't tag Bell again so he will be a free agent, no need for Bell to hold out.

 

I know this and mentioned it. OTOH, they Aactually, at one point, were.  But then labor lawyers mentioned the NFLPA would fight this and argue this is now Tag #3 so he should get (top 5 average) QB pay.  So the Steelers they toyed with the transition tag option.  But they finally just let it go.  Players not under contract can holdout anytime (without pay). This is true.  Bell already did it. Those under contract (like Brown) can accrue fines once team activities start and they don't show.

 

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I don't think anyone thinks it will change.

 

I guess muttering about something they and even the NFLPA can't control makes them feel better.

[Coffeedrinker]

12 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

Stuff said by ColtsBlueFL

Not that the stuff you said is not important, it was just getting loooooooooooooooooooooooong.

 

A couple of main points... you keep mentioning things from their current team (I know you have no other choice) but a new team will not hold their past against them.  Now if they act the same way with the new team then that changes.

 

Several players of homegrown talent will get big contracts and no one will have a problem with it as long as the production is there.  But who know when that production will change because of age, injury... any of the reasons you mentioned.

 

The the change of the CBA, I think that was just a snide comment made and then I repeated it on the reverse scenario.  I don't think anyone was muttering about it to make them feel better, but I could be wrong.  I did not mutter it to make myself feel better.

[ColtsBlueFL]

49 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

A couple of main points... you keep mentioning things from their current team (I know you have no other choice) but a new team will not hold their past against them.  Now if they act the same way with the new team then that changes.

 

The team mates don't scour for all the info or make the decisions. The front office does.  The players will see if the guy is a team or a 'me' guy though.

 

As far as Ballard goes, how does those reports above on Brown affect him in chance to get Ballard to give him an offer?

 

Chris Ballard on (especially high p[riced) free agents:

“He’s gotta fit into our culture. He has to fit in to doing things right. He has to fit in about being team-first. He has to be accountable to his teammates,” Ballard said. “They have to fit that criteria.

“If we think from a free agent standpoint that if we are going to go get one of the high-priced (players) – we have a very strict criteria that he’s going to have to fit. He’s going to have to fit in the locker room. He’s going to have to earn the high salary that he’s making not only with his play, but with his impact and his presence within the locker room.”

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Several players of homegrown talent will get big contracts and no one will have a problem with it as long as the production is there.  But who know when that production will change because of age, injury... any of the reasons you mentioned.

 

But with you evidently got some production at low cost from them before giving the out big contract. And thew 'grew up' in the team culture. With FA's you pay first, then hope they can at least earn that, let alone go above and beyond.

 

You just can't miss big with a huge $$ FA.  You have to putt it close to the hole, if not in; as Ballard would  say.  Repercussions could be devastating.

 

[Coffeedrinker]

52 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

The team mates don't scour for all the info or make the decisions. The front office does.  The players will see if the guy is a team or a 'me' guy though.

 

As far as Ballard goes, how does those reports above on Brown affect him in chance to get Ballard to give him an offer?

 

Chris Ballard on (especially high p[riced) free agents:

“He’s gotta fit into our culture. He has to fit in to doing things right. He has to fit in about being team-first. He has to be accountable to his teammates,” Ballard said. “They have to fit that criteria.

“If we think from a free agent standpoint that if we are going to go get one of the high-priced (players) – we have a very strict criteria that he’s going to have to fit. He’s going to have to fit in the locker room. He’s going to have to earn the high salary that he’s making not only with his play, but with his impact and his presence within the locker room.”

I'm not really sure what the point of all of this.  I've stated several times that I don't think Ballard will sign either of them because that is not how he wants to build a team.  I've also stated that I agree with it.  So I'm not sure why you want to keep pointing out how Ballard feels about it.

 

None of that has anything to do with my comment that the new team(s) where AB and LB end up won't hold their actions in Steel country against them.

52 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

But with you evidently got some production at low cost from them before giving the out big contract. And thew 'grew up' in the team culture. With FA's you pay first, then hope they can at least earn that, let alone go above and beyond.

 

You just can't miss big with a huge $$ FA.  You have to putt it close to the hole, if not in; as Ballard would  say.  Repercussions could be devastating.

 

I will try to explain again.  You stated that you don't know if you will get production... and then listed several things like age, injury.  My point is, it doesn't matter how a team spends their money, they don't know when they will lose production from a player because of age or injury or many of the other items you listed.

 

Additionally, if a team signs a big money FA and he gets injured, no player or front office is going to think anything negative.  If the player, again whether it's an outside FA or a homegrown FA, gets a big contract but then doesn't work hard, that will be the things that are devastating to a team