Hines Was A Definite Miss.....

[Flash7]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

barber and rice were top prospects while hines is a 4th rounder 

 

im not saying cut him yet, but he probably needs to show something soon 

I was just about to type that Barber was the #6 player selected in the second round. The Giants had far more riding on Barber than the Colts do with Hines.

 

I'm not saying we need to cut Hines, but I think it's fair to criticize his poor play.

[NewColtsFan]

6 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

barber and rice were top prospects while hines is a 4th rounder 

 

im not saying cut him yet, but he probably needs to show something soon 

The point is it’s too soon to give up on a player  the front office and coaching staff appear to be very high on. 

 

[stitches]

i mean... the start has not been great, but come on. That's 3 pre-season games. He probably won't be returning kicks, but he can still be a versatile weapon for this team. Let the kid play through at least one or two seasons before you label him a miss/bust. 

[indyagent17]

Lets give him a season of real games first, our line was missing our LT and a mishmash of RT so to be honest I am not ruling the kid out at all. So he cant return kicks, he is a solid blocker and receiver I see him being the slot more than at running back in the future 

[SteelCityColt]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

i mean... the start has not been great, but come on. That's 3 pre-season games. He probably won't be returning kicks, but he can still be a versatile weapon for this team. Let the kid play through at least one or two seasons before you label him a miss/bust. 

 

I thought rule of thumb was 3 years before judging a draft pick.. not 3 preseason games!

[Flash7]

16 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The point is it’s too soon to give up on a player  the front office and coaching staff appear to be very high on. 

 

To be fair, they were high on Hines in the off season and early in the preseason, when they were practicing in shorts.

 

A shifty player will usually look great in these types of practices. He appeared quick and made people miss. Once the pads came on, it was a different story. Hines has not shown the ability to be an effective runner. It's possible he could be a third down utility back, but Mack, Wilkins, and Turbin can all catch out of the backfield too.

 

On the flip side, the coaches really didn't talk up Wilkins during the same time span (early off season). Wilkins is a patient and smooth runner, which doesn't look great in these types of practices (just in shorts). Once they put the pads on, I heard the coaches praise Wilkins and the praise for Hines stopped.

 

Most recently, all I've heard on Hines from the coaches is about ball security, and it makes sense. What has he done in 3 preseason games (his evaluation period thus far) to receive praise?

 

My Point: The coaches are not as high on Hines as they were early on.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Flash7 said:

To be fair, they were high on Hines in the off season and early in the preseason, when they were practicing in shorts.

 

A shifty player will usually look great in these types of practices. He appeared quick and made people miss. Once the pads came on, it was a different story. Hines has not shown the ability to be an effective runner. It's possible he could be a third down utility back, but Mack, Wilkins, and Turbin can all catch out of the backfield too.

 

On the flip side, the coaches really didn't talk up Wilkins during the same time span (early off season). Wilkins is a patient and smooth runner, which doesn't look great in these types of practices (just in shorts). Once they put the pads on, I heard the coaches praise Wilkins and the praise for Hines stopped.

 

Most recently, all I've heard on Hines from the coaches is about ball security, and it makes sense. What has he done in 3 preseason games (his evaluation period thus far) to receive praise?

Turbin will no factor in the Hines decision 

[Flash7]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Turbin will no factor in the Hines decision 

My point is that so far Hines hasn't shown the ability to be an effective runner. He will mainly be used in the slot or to catch passes out of the backfield. We have plenty of other backs that can catch the ball out of the backfield, (as mentioned).

 

This limits Hines to be a slot receiver, which I would argue we have better receivers for. This greatly limits Hines' role.

 

And I disagree. Turbin may not play in the first 4 games, but he will make the squad. Hines, maybe. Maybe practice squad?

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

My point is that so far Hines hasn't shown the ability to be an effective runner. He will mainly be used in the slot or to catch passes out of the backfield. We have plenty of other backs that can catch the ball out of the backfield, (as mentioned).

 

This limits Hines to be a slot receiver, which I would argue we have better receivers for. This greatly limits Hines' role.

 

And I disagree. Turbin may not play in the first 4 games, but he will make the squad. Hines, maybe. Maybe practice squad?

Turbin will start the squad on the Reserve List and will not count against the 53 therefore he will not matter

 

 

    

[CR91]

calling someone a miss after 3 preseason games while not even using 5 percent of the playbook.  

 

the expectations of some fans are just mind blowing

[Flash7]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Turbin will start the squad on the Reserve List and will not count against the 53 therefore he will not matter

 

 

    

I'm aware that he will start on the Reserve List. He will make the squad and will be active in the remaining 12 games and hopefully playoffs. He will matter.

 

Either way, someone will come off the 53 man roster when Turbin returns.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, Flash7 said:

I'm aware that he will start on the Reserve List. He will make the squad and will be active in the remaining 12 games and hopefully playoffs. He will matter.

Not on the final 53

  You are not going to play the first 4 games with only 52 guys because he is wanting in the wings

    The same way teams fill the roster of a guy on the PUP list

 

   After 4 weeks Reich and CB can decide who to keep but until then Hines, and Michael/Green/Oliver will make the roster

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

26 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I thought rule of thumb was 3 years before judging a draft pick.. not 3 preseason games!

 

There have been a lot of Draft picks cut before their 3rd season.

 

I have no idea if Hines will or should be cut next week but I think it could be a possibility?

[Flash7]

9 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Not on the final 53

  You are not going to play the first 4 games with only 52 guys because he is wanting in the wings

    The same way teams fill the roster of a guy on the PUP list

 

   After 4 weeks Reich and CB can decide who to keep but until then Hines, and Michael/Green/Oliver will make the roster

 

 

We both agree about the 53 man roster. Turbin will not count against the 53 in the first 4 games and we will not play with only 52 players.

 

Here are 3 scenarios that can play out in the next few weeks:

 

1. Hines does not make the final 53 man roster. If we don't know exactly what the rationale is for the decision, then it's a draw (we cannot ascertain who's opinion is right or wrong).

 

2, Turbin will return in week 5 and will most likely make the 53 man roster. Someone will be cut from the 53 man roster. If Hines get's cut from the 53 man roster due to Turbin's return, then Turbin will have a direct impact on Hine's roster position. In this scenario, I would be right.

 

3. If Turbin returns and Hines still remains on the roster, then you would be right. Turbin did not factor into the decision of whether to retain Hines or not.

 

[Flash7]

32 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I thought rule of thumb was 3 years before judging a draft pick.. not 3 preseason games!

I guess Ballard did't get that memo when he cut Banner, also a 4th round pick.

 

I'm not saying that Hines should be cut, but is it not fair to judge a player based on how they've performed? Otherwise, what metric should be used?

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Flash7 said:

We both agree about the 53 man roster. Turbin will not count against the 53 in the first 4 games and we will not play with only 52 players.

 

Here are 3 scenarios that can play out in the next few weeks:

 

1. Hines does not make the final 53 man roster. If we don't know exactly what the rationale is for the decision, then it's a draw (we cannot ascertain who's opinion is right or wrong).

 

2, Turbin will return in week 5 and will most likely make the 53 man roster. Someone will be cut from the 53 man roster. If Hines get's cut from the 53 man roster due to Turbin's return, then Turbin will have a direct impact on Hine's roster position. In this scenario, I would be right.

 

3. If Turbin returns and Hines still remains on the roster, then you would be right. Turbin did not factor into the decision of whether to retain Hines or not.

I guess Ballard didn't get that memo wen he cut Banner, also a 4th round pick.

Do you want a party because I could care less who is right

[NDcolt]

Can’t write off a 4th rd pick in 3 preseason games when the staff clearly is hiding his true potential for the regular season.  He’s not a true rb but more a scat back and slot wr that we yet to see in 3 freakin preseason games, relax.  Now asking him to do something he’s not is on the staff and it ruined his confidence but one break out play in a game that matters cures all.

[Flash7]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Do you want a party because I could care less who is right

Okay, we're done. Next.

[MacDee1975]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I’m late to this party, but having read through the thread the vast majority of posters have said the same thing....

 

It’s way too early to give up on Hines.   Way too soon.    One poster wisely noted the story of Tikki Barber who had a terrible fumbling problem for years,  not just a few ore-season games.   He turned out alright.

 

Another rookie who had a terrible problem was Jerry Rice.   Obviously not a running back, but he led all receivers his first year in drops.   He turned alright as well.

 

Look...    maybe you’re right.   Maybe Hines won’t fix his problem.   But the odds are he’ll get better.   Most young players do.   Young players get better.

 

No need to panic.    No need to cut a rookie.   At least not yet.

 

 

 

 

How many players who had fumble issues early in their careers did not turn out alright though?  My guess is that number would be in the hundreds, at least.

[NewEra]

Lawd have merthy.....

[Blueblood23]

24 minutes ago, CR91 said:

calling someone a miss after 3 preseason games while not even using 5 percent of the playbook.  

 

the expectations of some fans are just mind blowing

If he can't hang onto the ball there is not much else to evaluate. He didn't in college and hasn't so far.

[Coffeedrinker]

10 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I guess Ballard did't get that memo when he cut Banner, also a 4th round pick.

 

I'm not saying that Hines should be cut, but is it not fair to judge a player based on how they've performed? Otherwise, what metric should be used?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Hines is great, good, bad, or anything, I am just responding to your question.

 

Fans and coaches judge a player based on how they have performed.  The difference is, fans base performance on statistics, coaches do not.

 

Fans see 2.38 yards per carry in the preseason games and think a player is not performing.

 

Coaches see; did he take the hand off correctly, was he at the correct spot for the handoff, did he use the technique taught after the handoff, did he run towards the correct spot, did he miss an opportunity for more yards, did he hold the ball correctly when he went through the line, how did he react upon contact from the defense, on passes did he run the correct route, if his back was to the endzone did he get his head around quickly, did he do the correct assignment in pass protection, did he stop the guy he was supposed to stop, did he read the defense correctly.  And the coaches pay attention to those things, not only in the preseason games (because they need to evaluate how the players react when it's not a scripted practice, but they also evaluate that every practice.  And I guarantee you, if a player, in this case Hines, checks off all or even most of the boxes the coaches will think he's performing regardless of what his stats are in preseason games.

 

 

[HectorRoberts]

4 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Lane Johnson has 3 years left on his deal if I remember right. I wouldn't mind trading a 2nd rounder and Basham for him.

What’s up with all the Basham trade talks? I’ve seen a lot of post that have something about trading him.

[Flash7]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Hines is great, good, bad, or anything, I am just responding to your question.

 

Fans and coaches judge a player based on how they have performed.  The difference is, fans base performance on statistics, coaches do not.

 

Fans see 2.38 yards per carry in the preseason games and think a player is not performing.

 

Coaches see; did he take the hand off correctly, was he at the correct spot for the handoff, did he use the technique taught after the handoff, did he run towards the correct spot, did he miss an opportunity for more yards, did he hold the ball correctly when he went through the line, how did he react upon contact from the defense, on passes did he run the correct route, if his back was to the endzone did he get his head around quickly, did he do the correct assignment in pass protection, did he stop the guy he was supposed to stop, did he read the defense correctly.  And the coaches pay attention to those things, not only in the preseason games (because they need to evaluate how the players react when it's not a scripted practice, but they also evaluate that every practice.  And I guarantee you, if a player, in this case Hines, checks off all or even most of the boxes the coaches will think he's performing regardless of what is ypc average is preseason games.

 

 

Great response! We can only judge based on what we can see as fans.

[PrincetonTiger]

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Hines is great, good, bad, or anything, I am just responding to your question.

 

Fans and coaches judge a player based on how they have performed.  The difference is, fans base performance on statistics, coaches do not.

 

Fans see 2.38 yards per carry in the preseason games and think a player is not performing.

 

Coaches see; did he take the hand off correctly, was he at the correct spot for the handoff, did he use the technique taught after the handoff, did he run towards the correct spot, did he miss an opportunity for more yards, did he hold the ball correctly when he went through the line, how did he react upon contact from the defense, on passes did he run the correct route, if his back was to the endzone did he get his head around quickly, did he do the correct assignment in pass protection, did he stop the guy he was supposed to stop, did he read the defense correctly.  And the coaches pay attention to those things, not only in the preseason games (because they need to evaluate how the players react when it's not a scripted practice, but they also evaluate that every practice.  And I guarantee you, if a player, in this case Hines, checks off all or even most of the boxes the coaches will think he's performing regardless of what his stats are in preseason games.

 

 

Great response

  Stats are meaningless to many

 

    I have seen the star of the team get chewed out while a “weak” player get commended

[CR91]

29 minutes ago, Blueblood23 said:

If he can't hang onto the ball there is not much else to evaluate. He didn't in college and hasn't so far.

 

If that is the only thing you're evaluating, thank god you're not a scout 

[NDcolt]

Why show your cards in preseason?  Listen to what the staff was raving about and think about the playcalling thus far.  Not one screen, reverse or a designed play to this kid.  Bo Jax couldn’t have been successful with those running plays and horrible blocking 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I thought rule of thumb was 3 years before judging a draft pick.. not 3 preseason games!

Except that Ballard cut his 4th. rd. pick, Banner, before the season even started last year.  Hines is also a 4th. rounder. 

[Blueblood23]

31 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

If that is the only thing you're evaluating, thank god you're not a scout 

Fumbling and dropping passes are OK as long as the player can run fast. Got it!

[CR91]

4 minutes ago, Blueblood23 said:

Fumbling and dropping passes are OK as long as the player can run fast. Got it!

 

You can't grade a player over a few a preseason games. If this continues into the regular season, then you have a point

[B~Town]

6 hours ago, Shadow_Creek said:

tell that to jojo Natson who was a stud for us the first 3 preseason games last year in fact he could have been ty 2.0 however on the final game he fumbled 3 or 4 times and was cut immediately 

A guy I will oddly never forget was at that game sitting right behind his wife or girlfriend and some family members . How there lives changed in that 3 nd a half hours from looking for a home to knowing they would be relocating again shortly . 

[Coltsman1788]

Not sure that the Colts have given up on him.  But my expectations for him and the excitement over the potential impact he might have has waned considerably.  The search for a game breaking running back / punt returner continues. 

[Nesjan3]

7 hours ago, ColtJ82 said:

I'll wait to see what our rookie 4th round pick does as the season progresses. Not sure that 3 preseason games are a fair barometer. 

^This, how can you you be so quick to judge a player, 3 preseason games??? really!? and he is a bust thats it.

[NewEra]

I'm sure they've taken him aside and read him the riot act. Learn to hold onto that ball or play yourself right out of the league. 

 

Id make him carry that ball 24/7. I'd make him sleep with the damn ball. I'd have everyone trying to strip that ball from him also. You'll fricken learn the hard way bid

BUD!

[NDcolt]

The Program 

[SteelCityColt]

2 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

There have been a lot of Draft picks cut before their 3rd season.

 

I have no idea if Hines will or should be cut next week but I think it could be a possibility?

 

2 hours ago, Flash7 said:

I guess Ballard did't get that memo when he cut Banner, also a 4th round pick.

 

I'm not saying that Hines should be cut, but is it not fair to judge a player based on how they've performed? Otherwise, what metric should be used?

 

To be clearer I was being slightly hyperbolic as the 3 years rule is often quoted.

[WarGhost21]

This has to be some kind of record! Calling someone a bust after just 3 PRESEASON games... I agree, he hasn’t looked too hot, but most fourth round picks dont come out swinging immediately anyways, and he needs more time before we label him a miss.  

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, krunk said:

Hines will be fine.   I can deal with him not being used for special teams though.

At least not kick and punt return.

Agreed. And I’d start him at 5 touches a game, rushing or receiving. If he can do that a couple games effectively, bump him up to 10. Hines is going to have to earn every snap. Right now with Mack out, I’d be feeding Wilkins if I’m Reich. Right now he’s a better runner, receiver, and blocker than Hines.

[Fluke_33]

2 hours ago, Flash7 said:

I guess Ballard did't get that memo when he cut Banner, also a 4th round pick.

 

I'm not saying that Hines should be cut, but is it not fair to judge a player based on how they've performed? Otherwise, what metric should be used?

Good point.  Let’s hope this isn’t a recurring theme with 4th rounders.  But I like that Ballard isn’t afraid to admit an error and move on 

[SteelCityColt]

16 minutes ago, WarGhost21 said:

This has to be some kind of record! Calling someone a bust after just 3 PRESEASON games... I agree, he hasn’t looked too hot, but most fourth round picks dont come out swinging immediately anyways, and he needs more time before we label him a miss.  

 

I’m going to get ahead of the curve...

 

I declare our 2019 round 5 selection is a bust.