Do you think that we'd currently be better off if....

[Dustin]

Instead of hiring Grigson and Pagano in 2012, Irsay went with the other two options that he interviewed: Reggie Mckenzie  and Mike Zimmer. 

 

Mckenzie is the GM of the Raiders who currently try boast the best record in the AFC and Mike Zimmer is the HC of the Vikings who made the playoffs last season and have one of the leagues best defensive units. 

 

Better? Worse? we probably wouldn't have guys like TY and Moncrief in this scenario. 

 

[GoColts8818]

I think we would have been calling for them to be fired by this point too because I don't think they would have had the same success out of the gate.

[Superman]

I know this is entirely hypothetical, but I feel compelled to mention that Reggie McKenzie probably took his dream job with the Raiders, and he probably would have just stayed in Green Bay otherwise.

 

McKenzie has some bad misses, and has picked much higher in the draft. He also blew his first coaching decision, firing the 8-8 Hue Jackson and hiring Dennis Allen, who didn't last three seasons. But he didn't have a first or second in his first season, and he probably wouldn't have traded for Richardson, and probably wouldn't have passed on Rhodes for Werner (judging from the Hayden pick, which was the same year). Probably no Vontae... Gabe Jackson in the third is his best move (besides Carr). He had a bad start, but his drafting has been better since 2014.

 

And Zimmer looked like the man a month and a half ago, but doesn't look so good now. He also has a better roster. But he probably would have hired a WCO coordinator and the offense would be more efficient. As for coaching style, Zimmer is more in your face than Pagano, but I feel like he's just as old school -- just as "run the ball, stop the run" -- as Pagano. 

 

It's definitely possible that the Colts would currently be better off with McKenzie and Zimmer, but I doubt they would have started off as hot and made the postseason progression they did from 2012-14. That's probably a trade-off that most people would sign up for right now, especially since it would probably mean better draft position for a couple of those early seasons (would DJ Hayden be a Colt??) but I think the playoff experience for guys like Luck, Hilton, AC, etc., is important, and will pay dividends in the future. 

[coltsva]

He may have drafted RGIII

 

McKenzie: “You’ve got to evaluate. That doesn’t mean you change your philosophy and you’re going to go strictly with an option running-type quarterback. It’s always nice to have options. If you can get a guy that can throw it, which all quarterbacks are going to have to be able to throw the football, then on top of that he can run it, that’s the old adage of being a dual threat.

If you’ve got a guy that you have to watch out, creating a lot of plays when things break down, making something out of nothing, that’s hard to defend.”

[DougDew]

I don't know if Mckenzie is better than Grigson.  Not sure they inherited the same roster situation, and McKenzie certainly has gotten a QB that is playing better than his drafted position, allowing the GM to draft another position in the first round.

 

I like Zimmer better.

[Fisticuffs111]

This is a different thought, but I still wish we would've gone after Adam Gase had we let go of Pags this past offseason. I think it would've been a perfect match.

 

[Colts_Fan12]

Simple answer is yes 

[Jason_]

When did irsay interview Zimmer?

[Superman]

22 minutes ago, coltsva said:

He may have drafted RGIII

 

McKenzie: “You’ve got to evaluate. That doesn’t mean you change your philosophy and you’re going to go strictly with an option running-type quarterback. It’s always nice to have options. If you can get a guy that can throw it, which all quarterbacks are going to have to be able to throw the football, then on top of that he can run it, that’s the old adage of being a dual threat.

If you’ve got a guy that you have to watch out, creating a lot of plays when things break down, making something out of nothing, that’s hard to defend.”

 

I'm pretty sure one of Irsay's interview questions was "which QB do you like," and anyone who didn't say "Andrew Luck" was asked to leave the building...

[Superman]

Something about Zimmer's interview skills, from 2012: http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/04/the-interview-that-nearly-ended-mike-zimmers-head-coaching-dream/

 

 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

When did irsay interview Zimmer?

 

He was on the list, not sure if his interview was ever confirmed though.

 

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/1/19/2719186/report-indianapolis-colts-will-interview-bengals-dc-mike-zimmer-for

[gacoop1]

When do we get rid of Pags/Grigs?  They're simply the pits of the organization who's just bringing the team down to a door mat....ala Browns....Sad, but before we know it, Luck will be in his 30's like the Romo's, Rivers, Dalton of the world that will never ever go to the big Dance...

[Fisticuffs111]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He was on the list, not sure if his interview was ever confirmed though.

 

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/1/19/2719186/report-indianapolis-colts-will-interview-bengals-dc-mike-zimmer-for

Yeah, I thought we interviewed him along with Jim Tressel. Tressel I remember was interviewed a couple times or something. Could be wrong on Zimmer though.

Always thought our coaching candidates looked kind of uninspiring aside from Zimmer though, although that's mostly thanks to hindsight. They were at least linked to Saints OC Pete Carmichael, Brad Childress, and I wanna say the 49ers ST coach at the time.

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Yeah, I thought we interviewed him along with Jim Tressel. Tressel I remember was interviewed a couple times or something. Could be wrong on Zimmer though.

Always thought our coaching candidates looked kind of uninspiring aside from Zimmer though, although that's mostly thanks to hindsight. They contacted Saints OC Pete Carmichael, 49ers ST Brad Seely who I think we did interview with, Brad Childress, 

 

There were no good hires that year. In fact, 8 teams changed coaches, but only Pagano and Fisher remain. Only Pagano got a team to the playoffs.

[Fisticuffs111]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There were no good hires that year. In fact, 8 teams changed coaches, but only Pagano and Fisher remain. Only Pagano got a team to the playoffs.

Sounds about right. It's hard to find a good NFL coach. Still wish I could've seen this team coached under Gase or even Hue Jackson though. Eagles HC too of course but I didn't really know who he was until he got that job. There were some pretty solid coaching candidates from this past offseason.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

he probably would have hired a WCO coordinator

 

I guess I forgot that Zimmer hired Norv Turner, Chud's former mentor, who owns a full branch on the Coryell tree...

 

I was thinking of Shurmur, a WCO guy who has taken over for Turner who resigned earlier this year.

[2006Coltsbestever]

30 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

When do we get rid of Pags/Grigs?  They're simply the pits of the organization who's just bringing the team down to a door mat....ala Browns....Sad, but before we know it, Luck will be in his 30's like the Romo's, Rivers, Dalton of the world that will never ever go to the big Dance...

I vote you become GM and Coach, so we can win it all every year.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

It would be hard to imagine any hires that would have been worse than Griggs & Pagano.

[UKColt13]

Reggie Mckenzie:

 

Draft:

Lets not forget that every year since the Luck draft in 2012, Oakland has picked inside the top 15 including twice inside the top 5. Its a lot easier to draft to a good young team when talents like Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper are staring at you inside the top 10. And let's not forget he spent a top 15 pick on DJ Hayden so he is by no means flawless in the first round. Looking at how many draft picks are still on the Raiders from each draft (Starters bolded):

 

2012: 0/6 - Marquette King (P) picked u as UDFA - Traded 1st RD pick for Carson Palmer - Used 3rd RD pick on Terrelle Pryor

2013: 5/10 - DJ Hayden (Dissapointing), Menelik Watson (Played in 22 games in his career at T, only started 15), Latavius Murray (Borderline starter at RB in the 6th), Mychal Rivera (Starter at TE in the 6th), Stacy McGee (Backup at DT)

2014: 6/8 - Khalil Mack (Superstar), David Carr (Superstar), Gabe Jackson (Solid Starter), Justin Ellis (Solid Starter), Keith McGill (Part-time player), TJ Carrie (Backup)

2015: 6/9 - Amari Cooper (Superstar), Mario Edwards Jr (Part-time player, hasn't been healthy), Clive Walford (Decent Starter), Jon Feliciano (Backup), Ben Heeney (Backup), Neiron Ball (Backup)

2016: Too early to tell - Picked Karl Joseph (S), Jihad Ward (DL), Shillique Calhoun (OLB/DE), Connor Cook (QB), DeAndre Washington (RB), Cory James (LB), Vadal Alexander (OG)

 

Overall, including mid and late round picks, I would call him a decent drafter but has a tendency to follow the hype train. He has greater success than Grigson has in early rounds but draft position can easily account for that. But taking all of the drafts into account I would say he would be a slight improvement for his ability to find players in the mid rounds. He has a 2/3 hit ratio in the 1st round.

 

Free Agency:

2012: Signed nobody of note. Had cap issues.

2013: Signed Rashad Jennings, Charles Woodson,

2014: Signed Roger Saffold long term, Justin Tuck, LaMarr Woodley, Antonio Smith, Tarell Brown, James Jones, Kevin Boothe, Jamize Olawale, Maurice Jones-Drew

2015: Michael Crabtree, Curtis Lofton, Dan Williams, Rodney Hudson, J'Marcus Webb, Nate Allen, Christian Ponder, Trent Richardson,  

2016: Bruce Irvin, Sean Smith, Kelechi Osemele all long term, Donald Penn, Reggie Nelson, Damontre Moore

 

Incredibly hit and miss. A tendency to go for names. Has had more cap space to work with recently and has given big names big contracts. 

 

Overall, I think McKenzie is more of an aggressive GM but I don't think he's any better than Grigson personally.

[csmopar]

Since we're playing the what if game, what if Irsay had fired Jim Mora a year sooner and hired Bill Bellichick in 2000............ 

[bluephantom87]

I think Josh McDaniels would work wonders with Luck and any gm with that has built a SB roster.

[DalTXColtsFan]

Grunch

 

The 2014 Colts were a team that could beat any team in the league except the Patriots.

 

The 2016 Raiders, so far, look like a team that can beat any team in the league except the Patriots.  I will be very very happy if they prove me wrong.  I will be equally happy if we beat them this year.

 

That begs another question - if the team McKenzie built can't even beat a talent-starved team like the 2016 Colts would you really rather have McKenzie/DelRio than Grigson/Pags?

[#12.]

13 hours ago, Dustin said:

? we probably wouldn't have guys like TY and Moncrief in this scenario. 

 

That's pretty much where the list ends.  

 

I would have a hard time making any sort of case for Chuck and Grigson.  This team won early on for two reasons:  the AFC South and Luck repeatedly bailing out a weak team with comeback after comeback.  Plus, if you subtract the Polian era holdovers - Reggie, Mathis, Vinatieri, McAffee, etc, this era might have been a complete disaster.  Even in the AFC South, I can't imagine this team winning early on without Reggie and Mathis.  Of the Polian holdovers, you could add Castonzo to that list, who, although inconsistent, has still probably been the best O-lineman during this era.  Even Donald Brown - looking back, Brown might have been the most effective RB of this era.  Outside of simply looking at the bottom line and saying Chuck and Grigson won 11 three years in a row, on any sort of deeper inspection, I have a hard time pointing to much of anything positive from either.

 

As for the original question, it's hard to believe you wouldn't at least have a defense in the 10-12 range with Zimmer.  With the #10-12 defense and Luck, this is a playoff team.  One stop against Detroit and Houston and this team is 7-4.  With a top 5 defense and Luck you are Super Bowl contenders.

[deedub75]

I just wish that 1 of the 2 was experienced when they were hired in 2012. 

[Coffeedrinker]

17 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

I just wish that 1 of the 2 was experienced when they were hired in 2012. 

I agree and at the time I posted on this very forum that I was considered the Colts hired a rookie head coach and a rookie GM.

 

The Colts should have kept Caldwell.

[Smonroe]

4 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

I think Josh McDaniels would work wonders with Luck and any gm with that has built a SB roster.

 

Well, he drafted Tebow in the first round... so there's that.

[DougDew]

54 minutes ago, #12. said:

That's pretty much where the list ends.  

 

I would have a hard time making any sort of case for Chuck and Grigson.  This team won early on for two reasons:  the AFC South and Luck repeatedly bailing out a weak team with comeback after comeback.  Plus, if you subtract the Polian era holdovers - Reggie, Mathis, Vinatieri, McAffee, etc, this era might have been a complete disaster.  Even in the AFC South, I can't imagine this team winning early on without Reggie and Mathis.  Of the Polian holdovers, you could add Castonzo to that list, who, although inconsistent, has still probably been the best O-lineman during this era.  Even Donald Brown - looking back, Brown might have been the most effective RB of this era.  Outside of simply looking at the bottom line and saying Chuck and Grigson won 11 three years in a row, on any sort of deeper inspection, I have a hard time pointing to much of anything positive from either.

 

As for the original question, it's hard to believe you wouldn't at least have a defense in the 10-12 range with Zimmer.  With the #10-12 defense and Luck, this is a playoff team.  One stop against Detroit and Houston and this team is 7-4.  With a top 5 defense and Luck you are Super Bowl contenders.

One thing to remember, those 4 players, and only two at regular starting positions, were two of only a few players on the roster that were capable of being an NFL player.  Including Freeney, Bethea,  AC, and maybe one or two marginal players, the roster had about 6 out of 22 players needed to fill an NFL starting team.  Saturday left, no TEs were rostered, Brackett was done, etc. 

 

I can't think of any Coach/GM combination that started with such a bare cupboard, not to mention an edict from the owner that he wanted an overhaul of offensive and defensive philosphies, so whatever marginal players remained were fairly useless in the new schemes.

 

And with the valuable #1 pick in the draft, the GM had to take one of the two QBs.  He was required to spend that valuable pick on one, and only one, player when he needed about a dozen more players just to field a competent team.

 

And since this forum expects every position to be filled with a 1st or 2nd round draft choice, (or get probowl performance form 3rd and lower rounds) over 4 years of drafting would still leave us about 7 players short in 2016, when counting Freeny and Bethea's replacement and other turnover.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, #12. said:

Plus, if you subtract the Polian era holdovers - Reggie, Mathis, Vinatieri, McAffee, etc, this era might have been a complete disaster.

 

The current regime made the decision right away to stick with Reggie and Mathis, so I give them credit for those retentions. And they've since re-signed AV and McAfee, also. 

[deedub75]

4 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

Well, he drafted Tebow in the first round... so there's that.

 

Didn't he also move up in the draft to get Tebow?  

[21isSuperman]

5 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

Well, he drafted Tebow in the first round... so there's that.

 

1 hour ago, deedub75 said:

 

Didn't he also move up in the draft to get Tebow?  

McDaniels the coach has a bright future.  McDaniels the GM, there are more critics

[deedub75]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

McDaniels the coach has a bright future.  McDaniels the GM, there are more critics

 

I totally agree!  Denver gave him entirely too much power for a first HC job. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing him on if the Colts made a change. 

[Colts_Fan12]

22 hours ago, Dustin said:

Instead of hiring Grigson and Pagano in 2012, Irsay went with the other two options that he interviewed: Reggie Mckenzie  and Mike Zimmer. 

 

Mckenzie is the GM of the Raiders who currently try boast the best record in the AFC and Mike Zimmer is the HC of the Vikings who made the playoffs last season and have one of the leagues best defensive units. 

 

Better? Worse? we probably wouldn't have guys like TY and Moncrief in this scenario. 

 

What do you think? You brought it up but just curious if you think we would be better or not? 

[NewColtsFan]

23 hours ago, Dustin said:

Instead of hiring Grigson and Pagano in 2012, Irsay went with the other two options that he interviewed: Reggie Mckenzie  and Mike Zimmer. 

 

Mckenzie is the GM of the Raiders who currently try boast the best record in the AFC and Mike Zimmer is the HC of the Vikings who made the playoffs last season and have one of the leagues best defensive units. 

 

Better? Worse? we probably wouldn't have guys like TY and Moncrief in this scenario. 

 

 

When I started reading your post,  I thought I was going to be reading about hiring you as GM and Adam Gase as the HC in 2016 instead of retaining and extending both CP and RG.

 

As for the guys you name,  at this point, he it's great what McKenzie has done with the Raiders.    But let's not forget how long it's taken him to do that.    Lots of mistakes along the way.    In fact, for a while,  it wasn't even clear that McKenzie would retain his job.      He had make too many mistakes along the way.

 

And Zimmer is also a great story.     But has Minnesota really done all that much?    Started off 5-0 and people were talking about them in the Super Bowl.       What has happened since?

 

The underlying theme of what I've been preaching since I arrived here remains the same......    this game is hard!    Being a GM and an HC and a coordinator is hard.       Really, really hard.

 

 

[southwest1]

13 hours ago, UKColt13 said:

Reggie Mckenzie:

 

Draft:

Lets not forget that every year since the Luck draft in 2012, Oakland has picked inside the top 15 including twice inside the top 5. Its a lot easier to draft to a good young team when talents like Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper are staring at you inside the top 10. And let's not forget he spent a top 15 pick on DJ Hayden so he is by no means flawless in the first round. Looking at how many draft picks are still on the Raiders from each draft (Starters bolded):

 

2012: 0/6 - Marquette King (P) picked u as UDFA - Traded 1st RD pick for Carson Palmer - Used 3rd RD pick on Terrelle Pryor

2013: 5/10 - DJ Hayden (Dissapointing), Menelik Watson (Played in 22 games in his career at T, only started 15), Latavius Murray (Borderline starter at RB in the 6th), Mychal Rivera (Starter at TE in the 6th), Stacy McGee (Backup at DT)

2014: 6/8 - Khalil Mack (Superstar), David Carr (Superstar), Gabe Jackson (Solid Starter), Justin Ellis (Solid Starter), Keith McGill (Part-time player), TJ Carrie (Backup)

2015: 6/9 - Amari Cooper (Superstar), Mario Edwards Jr (Part-time player, hasn't been healthy), Clive Walford (Decent Starter), Jon Feliciano (Backup), Ben Heeney (Backup), Neiron Ball (Backup)

2016: Too early to tell - Picked Karl Joseph (S), Jihad Ward (DL), Shillique Calhoun (OLB/DE), Connor Cook (QB), DeAndre Washington (RB), Cory James (LB), Vadal Alexander (OG)

 

Overall, including mid and late round picks, I would call him a decent drafter but has a tendency to follow the hype train. He has greater success than Grigson has in early rounds but draft position can easily account for that. But taking all of the drafts into account I would say he would be a slight improvement for his ability to find players in the mid rounds. He has a 2/3 hit ratio in the 1st round.

 

Free Agency:

2012: Signed nobody of note. Had cap issues.

2013: Signed Rashad Jennings, Charles Woodson,

2014: Signed Roger Saffold long term, Justin Tuck, LaMarr Woodley, Antonio Smith, Tarell Brown, James Jones, Kevin Boothe, Jamize Olawale, Maurice Jones-Drew

2015: Michael Crabtree, Curtis Lofton, Dan Williams, Rodney Hudson, J'Marcus Webb, Nate Allen, Christian Ponder, Trent Richardson,  

2016: Bruce Irvin, Sean Smith, Kelechi Osemele all long term, Donald Penn, Reggie Nelson, Damontre Moore

 

Incredibly hit and miss. A tendency to go for names. Has had more cap space to work with recently and has given big names big contracts. 

 

Overall, I think McKenzie is more of an aggressive GM but I don't think he's any better than Grigson personally.

I respect the time & effort the methodical time you spent to write this post UK13. Highlighting both the home runs & misses of Reggie's tenure in Oakland. I don't usually take the time to dissect the vast majority of a GMs picks. All I know for sure is that acquiring Crabtree in 2015 was a fantastic free agency coupe because the guy has re-invented himself since losing that 49ers SB & as a WR, the man is clutch. I love the drive to win in that kid. He's a beast! 

[southwest1]

13 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

I think Josh McDaniels would work wonders with Luck and any gm with that has built a SB roster.

To be totally candid with you, I'd like to see INDY not to go after McDaniels because poaching coordinators off NE's staff hasn't worked out well in the past: Bill O'Brian, Eric Mangini, Romo Crenel, etc. etc. 

 

I'm hoping Marvin Lewis gets fired in Cincy after this season since as a HC the man knows how to build a solid defense. 

 

Look, I know Josh is smart & you learn a lot from failure i.e. his tenure in Denver. I just want to succeed without relying on taking away sideline mentors from Massachusetts. 

 

Yeah, I know. I suffer from my own biases in favor of BIG Blue & the Championship discipline of Tom Coughlin. I will own that. 

[southwest1]

9 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The Colts should have kept Caldwell.

CD, 

 

You are a well respected football mind on the forum naturally & for good reason. But, I beg to differ with you on this post 100% Jim Caldwell is not a good HC. Matt Stafford & the Lions will probably win the NFC North sure & Jim did improve Matthew's throwing motion & poise in the pocket. However, 1 magical season in Detroit & a lucky one with the Ravens where he won a SB ring during 2012 is a far cry from letting Jim run football operations on the field. 

 

Let's not go crazy alright...Also in 2009, Peyton Manning won a lot of games late in the 4th QTR. It's not like Jim drew up mastermind plays. Just saying. 

 

Am I happy for Jim as a former Colt coach? Sure. Is he a wizard on game day? Hades no. 

[southwest1]

23 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Simple answer is yes 

I know you have taken a lot of flak & unwarranted backlash CF12 for calling for both our GM & HC to be dismissed prior to their contract extensions. You were right & at the forefront of this pink slip movement along with Dustin & BOTT. I admire your tenacity on this front. I truly do. 

 

I wanna win rings. I could care less about how nice an HC is or how a GM took us to the Deflate Gate. Grigson can't keep Luck healthy or protected & our elite QB's prime yrs are wasting away & being squandered. The longer Jimmy keeps this duo intact; the more this franchise will plummet backwards into irrelevancy. 

[Colts_Fan12]

7 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

I know you have taken a lot of flak & unwarranted backlash CF12 for calling for both our GM & HC to be dismissed prior to their contract extensions. You were right & at the forefront of this pink slip movement along with Dustin & BOTT. I admire your tenacity on this front. I truly do. 

 

I wanna win rings. I could care less about how nice an HC is or how a GM took us to the Deflate Gate. Grigson can't keep Luck healthy or protected & our elite QB's prime yrs are wasting away & being squandered. The longer Jimmy keeps this duo intact; the more this franchise will plummet backwards into irrelevancy. 

Couldn't agree more SW!! I wanna win rings too and I don't see it with these clowns. Chuck is a great guy not a great football coach! Grigson's talent evaluation skills are awful in the draft and FA way too many misses.

[southwest1]

I said this to NFLfan, who is a huge Vikings fan, I have no idea what took Zimmer so long to get a head coaching job. I've always respected his defensive prowess & when you listen to the man speak, he knows how to motive men to follow him, how to neutralize opposing offenses, & when he speaks I go "Darn, I would run thru a wall if Mike asked me to. Translation: He has quiet confidence oozing thru his pores, is extremely knowledgable when it comes to making QBs fear his pass rush, & I just like the guy. 

[southwest1]

10 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Couldn't agree more SW!! I wanna win rings too and I don't see it with these clowns. Chuck is a great guy not a great football coach! Grigson's talent evaluation skills are awful in the draft and FA way too many misses.

Thanks man. I'm just sick & tired of getting smoked outside our division & until we find a GM & HC that can hang with Pittsburgh or NE INDY will be viewed as a playoff joke. 

 

How much of a grace period do Pags & Grigs get? Change is definitely called for. Anyway, thanks for saying what needed to be said. I applaud guys that tear the bandaid off & call it like they see it. Keep it up my brother! 

 

When we beat Tennessee, I was like Moncrief looks good, but until we find a way to beat the Steelers who cares? It means absolutely nothing.