Bjoern was robbed!

[Superman]

I'm talking about his sack, forced fumble, and safety late in the third quarter. I don't think his home was robbed, but if it was, I'd suspect the refs in Sunday's game.

 

Here's what happened. Werner beat the Jags RT with a quick and decisive inside move. In no time flat, he's on Bortles, slaps the ball out of his hands, and the ball eventually goes out of bounds out of the end zone before anyone can establish control of it. But the refs called Vontae Davis for illegal contact on the play. Davis grabbed the receiver because he got hit with a stop and go on Bortles' pump fake. The contact occurred about ten yards past the line of scrimmage (more than five), and was clearly worthy of a flag.

 

But by the time Davis grabs the receiver, Bortles has already been contacted by Werner, and while he's still in the pocket, he no longer has the ball. The rule reads that the defender may not impede the receiver beyond five yards "if the player who receives the snap remains in the pocket with the ball." http://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/15_Rule12_Player_Conduct.pdf Bortles lost the ball well before Davis made any contact with the receiver.

 

I took snapshots of the overhead view of the play, so I could share. I was looking forward to seeing this play, because you can't see the grab on the broadcast. It turns out that there is a grab, but it still shouldn't have been a penalty because Bortles no longer had the ball when the grab occurred. 

 

http://forums.colts.com/gallery/image/2336-bortles-safety-1/

 

This play was run from the 4 yard line. You can see that Davis made no contact with the receiver within five yards of the line of scrimmage.

 

http://forums.colts.com/gallery/image/2337-bortles-safety-2/

 

Here's where Davis gets into trouble. You should be able to click on the image to zoom, and if you look at Bortles, you can see him pumping a throw to Davis' man. Davis begins to break toward the receiver to make a play on the ball, but quickly realizes that he's been set up.

 

In the very next frame, Werner knocks the ball out of Bortles' hands.

 

http://forums.colts.com/gallery/image/2338-bortles-safety-3/

 

Here you can see Davis reaching out to grab the receiver, but you can also see that Bortles doesn't have the ball anymore.

 

This flag should have been picked up, and the sack, fumble and safety should have stood as they happened. This play is an excellent example of why Bill Belichick has been arguing for every play to be reviewable. If you could challenge a play like this, especially in a close game, the replay officials ought to be able to come to the proper conclusion. It was inconsequential for us; not only was the game over, but Vontae picked the ball off later on this possession. Still, it would be nice to get plays like this right.

 

Conclusion: Bjoern Werner was robbed of what would have been a huge play for him, in what has been a slow start to the season. 

[CanuckColtsFan]

Nice research!

[camcolts2621]

They should make an unrecorded stat statsheet...

[TKnight24]

It's a strange day when a Mod makes a ranting thread

[Kamikaze]

I was wondering the same thing when he stripped sacked Bortles. I was like wait….Smh…..Its all good….It'll make him want it more this week against the titans. 

[southwest1]

You 1st line was quite cunning & clever Superman. It made me chuckle anyway. Okay, technically your 2nd sentence. Details; details...

 

"I'm talking about his sack, forced fumble, and safety late in the third quarter. I don't think his home was robbed, but if it was, I'd suspect the refs in Sunday's game."

 

Bjorn will play with more anger, passion, & fire now to show the refs next week that his turnovers cannot be denied much longer.

 

All kidding aside, nice work Superman. You do a good job articulating your argument that anyone can follow & connect the dots. 

[southwest1]

It's a strange day when a Mod makes a ranting thread

Strange perhaps, but I like it when moderators vent every once in awhile, it humanizes them & makes me like them more. Yes, I realize the positions that they hold on this site mandates that they remain balanced, reasonably neutral, & keep the peace among the masses as best they can. I just like it when their personalities come out. Good stuff.

 

I enjoy reading all the moderators insights even when they are far better versed on a topic than I clearly am. It's a skill to simplify something down to it's elemental level without making NFL novices feel stupid. Well done. 

[SteelCityColt]

Good break down my man, this is the sort of "rant" ( ) that I enjoy reading. 

 

On the topic of refereeing I hope a mandate is given to the Refs not to blow plays dead too soon. With the benefit or review/replay they should let it roll and sort it out after (as long as no player is in danger). The Jets were robbed the other night I thought by the Refs blowing the play dead too soon. 

[crazycolt1]

It's not really a rant when you have the proof to back it up. Nice work. (well if it was a rant it was cool anyway)

[Buck Showalter]

Clearly a bust...

[HOZER]

If that was a rant, I would like for your rants to continue!! Good post!

[ruksak]

Pretty sad when you have to break out the Zapruder film to find a good play by Werner. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Boy I wanted that play in real time.  It was right in front of me, but Davis was on the other sideline.  It just seemed to happen too fast in real time.  I guess it wasn't enough for refs to notice and huddle up on the timing issue.  I also don't see umps giving up calling balls and strikes nor NFL allowing review of Penalty flags plays.

 

But I do blame Davis.  He did get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.  OTOH, I don't think he ever thought they would pull a double move, pump and go with a rook QB throwing from his end zone.  But they did and I think he felt a possible 5 yd penalty and first down would be better than a 96 yard pitch and catch for a TD.   So ...

 

As for Werner, it seems he's been a half step behind a lot this year.  Wish he could get there a split second quicker than he has bee.  It is to the point I'm seeing this in my head when I the conclusion of a Werner pass rush effort-

[jvan1973]

Pretty sad when you have to break out the Zapruder film to find a good play by Werner.

His head went back and to the left

[ruksak]

His head went back and to the left

There was a second guy holding. He was hiding in the turfy knoll. 

[ruksak]

 

 

On the topic of refereeing I hope a mandate is given to the Refs not to blow plays dead too soon. With the benefit or review/replay they should let it roll and sort it out after (as long as no player is in danger). The Jets were robbed the other night I thought by the Refs blowing the play dead too soon. 

That has been a problem since I started watching football in the 1970's. I would think the protocol would be that they are told not to blow the whistle is there's even the slightest hint of unsureness about the play, but I have no idea what their told in this regard. Many times when you see this happen, it's a knee-jerk decision to call the runner/QB down in the grasp and/or forward progress had been stopped. 

 

The forward progress thing is so inconsistent. One of the greatest plays in Super Bowl history could easily have never happened due to a grasping call. The helmet catch ala Giants/Patriots SB. 

[ProblChld32]

The refs have certainly been gracious with the flags this season, its ridiculous.

[Coffeedrinker]

It's a strange day when a Mod makes a ranting thread

It's not a rant, it's a break down of a game changing play.

 

Also Superman is a Colts fan who just happens to be a moderator on the forum.

[PeterBowman]

not the first or the last time Walt Coleman has robbed the Colts

[ruksak]

 

 

Also Superman is a Colts fan who just happens to be a moderator on the forum.

What you don't know is that Clark Kent is actually a Jaguars fan. So I'm highly suspicious of this "moderator". 

[Coltsman1788]

It's a strange day when a Mod makes a ranting thread

At least his rant was well researched and documented.  I found it quite interesting.  Wasn't aware of that rule twist. 

[Coffeedrinker]

What you don't know is that Clark Kent is actually a Jaguars fan. So I'm highly suspicious of this "moderator". 

I don't know if Superman could help the Jags.  Granted the Colts game was the first time I watched more than a few plays of a Jaguars this year but I will not be shocked if they become the 2nd team to go 0-16 in a season... they are that bad.

[OffensivelyPC]

These are the type of plays that should be reviewable.  Because you're not reviewing the judgment part of the penalty, you're trying to figure out whether the timing of the penalty justifies throwing the flag.  It's like reviewing a whether the ball was tipped in the air by a defender.

[ruksak]

These are the type of plays that should be reviewable.  Because you're not reviewing the judgment part of the penalty, you're trying to figure out whether the timing of the penalty justifies throwing the flag.  It's like reviewing a whether the ball was tipped in the air by a defender.

Here we're entering an area that we shouldn't. There are perceivable penalties on every play in the NFL. Some get missed, some are not clear enough to bring cause for the ref to blow his whistle. If we start dissecting plays to that extent, watching a 6 hour NFL game would be a chore. 

 

The point being, a Colts player committed a penalty, and he killed the play (BTW, great job with the breakdown Superman). We only find a perceived injustice if we parse the play to unreasonable degrees, in respect to live action football. 

[PeterBowman]

since this is Walt Coleman we're talking about...I'm curious as to when the flag was thrown in regards as to when the penalty occurred

[OffensivelyPC]

Here we're entering an area that we shouldn't. There are perceivable penalties on every play in the NFL. Some get missed, some are not clear enough to bring cause for the ref to blow his whistle. If we start dissecting plays to that extent, watching a 6 hour NFL game would be a chore. 

 

The point being, a Colts player committed a penalty, and he killed the play (BTW, great job with the breakdown Superman). We only find a perceived injustice if we parse the play to unreasonable degrees, in respect to live action football. 

But this isn't part and parsing the referee's judgment.  This is like counting whether there were 12 men on the field.  The flag was either thrown before or after the ball came loose.  Most coaches aren't going to throw the flag when it's so close you can't tell, but this was obvious enough that the referee could see it and be like, "Yeah, we got this wrong."  I'm not a fan of making pass interference, holding, defensive holding, etc. reviewable to the extent that we're trying to judge whether the guy pulled the jersey or the defender had too much contact with the receiver.  That's unreasonable.  What is reasonable is, did he lose possession before the flag was thrown.  That's the same type of review as whether the ball was fumbled before or after he was down.  And this was a big enough play that it would be game altering if it were a closer game.  And like those plays, if there isn't clear and convincing evidence, the coach is charged a time out and they lose their challenge.  It won't be 6 hours, because you only get so many timeouts and challenges.

[Buck Showalter]

I don't know if Superman could help the Jags.  Granted the Colts game was the first time I watched more than a few plays of a Jaguars this year but I will not be shocked if they become the 2nd team to go 0-16 in a season... they are that bad.

Last season seemed to start off just about as poorly for Jax if I remember correctly, at least i remember thinking they could go 0-16 early on last season, so maybe they can get behind Bortles and squeak out a W or two...

They play the Raiders right???

[Coffeedrinker]

Last season seemed to start off just about as poorly for Jax if I remember correctly, at least i remember thinking they could go 0-16 early on last season, so maybe they can get behind Bortles and squeak out a W or two...

They play the Raiders right???

Good points, Bortles may help, I don't know if they play the Raiders but that is there chance.  Except the Raiders have a defense and that will help them keep a lot of games close.

[Coffeedrinker]

Here we're entering an area that we shouldn't. There are perceivable penalties on every play in the NFL. Some get missed, some are not clear enough to bring cause for the ref to blow his whistle. If we start dissecting plays to that extent, watching a 6 hour NFL game would be a chore. 

 

Very good point.

 

The point being, a Colts player committed a penalty, and he killed the play (BTW, great job with the breakdown Superman). We only find a perceived injustice if we parse the play to unreasonable degrees, in respect to live action football. 

I disagree with this, I think that is the point Superman is trying to make... a Colts player did not commit a penalty.  There is no illegal contact if the QB does not have the ball and per Superman's breakdown the contact happened after Bortles fumbled the ball, therefore the contact was not illegal.

 

So not only was the call wrong but it took 2 points off the board (which wasn't critical in this game but it could be in another) and took a possession away from the Colts and gave the Jags a first down.  That is a lot of bad things from a wrong call.

[ruksak]

 

I disagree with this, I think that is the point Superman is trying to make... a Colts player did not commit a penalty.  There is no illegal contact if the QB does not have the ball and per Superman's breakdown the contact happened after Bortles fumbled the ball, therefore the contact was not illegal.

 I may be wrong, but aren't we talking about a split second disparity? That's a lofty standard for refs to be held to. 

[Coffeedrinker]

 I may be wrong, but aren't we talking about a split second disparity? That's a lofty standard for refs to be held to. 

It is a split second but that is why the NFL hires the people they hire and pay them a pretty descent salary.  So they can sort through those split second disparities and make the right call.  It's also why they have multiple officials on the field.

[ColtsBlueFL]

These are the type of plays that should be reviewable.  Because you're not reviewing the judgment part of the penalty, you're trying to figure out whether the timing of the penalty justifies throwing the flag.  It's like reviewing a whether the ball was tipped in the air by a defender.

 

I like the direction you took this. My only thought is, the refs may not consider it material.  One can argue that the QB seeing his receiver starting to run into his defender  made him hold up on the throw, thus allowing Werner to strip it from him.  It's only a guess of route and timing of throws.  If the QB pumps and doesn't let it go, was it designed? Or forced by the illegal contact that occurs right after as a contigupus part of the play?  Refs don't worry about that stuff.  If they see illegal contact, and it was bang bang close to being at or right after a pump fake and then strip, it is still part of the play to them and will call it.  If more time had expired between the contact and fumble, then I don't think they throw it.  I think if video slo-mo is needed to show whether it just before or after, they're not going to split those hairs.  I think clear real time demarcation of those acts will continue to be the standard in illegal contact, holding, and P.I. calls.  I'd like Dean Blandino to comment on it though.

[GoColts8818]

Walt Coleman blew a call? I a shocked!

[CR91]

good post superman, bad wording of the thread. I felt bad for werner 

[keverton]

Ifeel he needs to get stronger still and is tryin to hard at times have faith guys it will come colts baby

[OffensivelyPC]

I like the direction you took this. My only thought is, the refs may not consider it material.  One can argue that the QB seeing his receiver starting to run into his defender  made him hold up on the throw, thus allowing Werner to strip it from him.  It's only a guess of route and timing of throws.  If the QB pumps and doesn't let it go, was it designed? Or forced by the illegal contact that occurs right after as a contigupus part of the play?  Refs don't worry about that stuff.  If they see illegal contact, and it was bang bang close to being at or right after a pump fake and then strip, it is still part of the play to them and will call it.  If more time had expired between the contact and fumble, then I don't think they throw it.  I think if video slo-mo is needed to show whether it just before or after, they're not going to split those hairs.  I think clear real time demarcation of those acts will continue to be the standard in illegal contact, holding, and P.I. calls.  I'd like Dean Blandino to comment on it though.

 

Yeah, to me, if you have to get into the "why" of hte review, it should be unreviewable. Why the ref threw the flag, why the ball wasn't thrown sooner. Subjectivity is just part of the game. Fail Mary, among other famous plays prove that.  Subjectivity is always disagreeable, it just depends on who you're talking to. But when there's clear evidence one way or the other on plays that lend itself to an objective review, the film can provide the proof needed to change the play without having to get into the subjective; and I fully acknowledg that refs still screw it up sometimes, like Luck's interception against the Titans when he knee was very clearly down before the throw.  It shouldn't happen, but it does.  But the point of the review is to get the play right, and to me, the brightline rule on which plays should be reviewable is when you are asking questions like when the ball was down, or whether the ball crossed the line, or when possession was lost. Those are plays that you could get a group of people in a room and all come to the same conclusion, and if you cannot, it's not overturned. 

 

One way to get around the splitting hairs is to just simply make the play challengeable, but not to be instigated by officials.  In that event, it's incumbent on the coach to draw the refs attention to it, and the referees don't have to split hairs on a frequent basis

 

[Superman]

It is a split second but that is why the NFL hires the people they hire and pay them a pretty descent salary. So they can sort through those split second disparities and make the right call. It's also why they have multiple officials on the field.

And has replay.

[Superman]

Pretty sad when you have to break out the Zapruder film to find a good play by Werner.

I needed the Zapruder film to find the penalty. Werner's play was obvious from the beginning.

[NewEra]

I needed the Zapruder film to find the penalty. Werner's play was obvious from the beginning.

If people actually watched him play they would see that not only was he double teamed most of the game. Freeing up other guys he also played in the middle and was out in coverage a lot. He made a big stop on third down to help us go 3 and out on one play also. The #'s as in sacks cause that all anyone wants might not be there but he's a huge part of the defense.

[Dark Superman]

So many plays and opportunities go over looked. These 'professional' analyst only look and care about one thing.. STATISTICS!