Doyle Article on "Lousy" Colts Offensive Line

[southwest1]

Was "Lousy" the Sesame Street word of the day for Mr. Doyel? I'm starting to think so...Can this guy say anything positive about INDY's offensive line at all besides the fact that Herremans beard is similar to Brett Keisel's? 

 

If this is encouragement, I'd hate to see what vociferous contempt looks like. Wow.  Can't you just picture this guy rallying the troops & inspiring anybody? Yeah, me neither. Is this tough love masquerading as  those who can't teach write pointless columns? It sounds like it.

 

As the old adage goes: "If you think all hope is lost & you're gonna die tomorrow, you'll probably find a way to make it happen."  

[Lawrence Owen]

I think the o-line will be better than last  year. Granted the Center position to me is the only real 'gloom' position. The other 4 slots will be solidified by the time the season starts.  But I Honestly do not think we have ANYONE that is good enough to be a starting Center in the NFL.  To me, Both are back-ups.

 

Other than that....I think the article is trash.

 

These guys get reps together,and form consistency/bond, -which was lacking until the end of last year due to injuries-, they will form a solid unit.

 

Mark my words...."If the starters stay healthy, the o-line will be good as a team"

[Smonroe]

Was "Lousy" the Sesame Street word of the day for Mr. Doyel? I'm starting to think so...Can this guy say anything positive about INDY's offensive line at all besides the fact that Herremans beard is similar to Brett Keisel's? 

 

If this is encouragement, I'd hate to see what vociferous contempt looks like. Wow.  Can't you just picture this guy rallying the troops & inspiring anybody? Yeah, me neither. Is this tough love masquerading as  those who can't teach write pointless columns? It sounds like it.

 

As the old adage goes: "If you think all hope is lost & you're gonna die tomorrow, you'll probably find a way to make it happen."  

 

Obviously, he's just trying to get people to talk about his article, and he's succeeding.  At least a little bit.

 

Like the OP said, there's nothing new in his piece.  And I agree with you, "lousy" isn't exactly helpful in describing the line.  I always go to Ben Gundy's assessments.  He watches every block and gives a fair opinion.  But even he doesn't know the assignments.

 

I will agree with Doyle on one thing, and I've said this from the very beginning.  The GM's #1 priority should be to protect the franchise.  To me, that means building the best O line he possibly could.  Even if it means over paying or over drafting.  Grigs did some of that with Cherilus and Herrimann, but not enough IMHO. 

 

I guess the good news is that if a "Lousy" O line can get this team to the AFC Championship game, then a slight improvement may get us farther?

[Coffeedrinker]

He bases all players being "lousy" on PFF and then even mentions that PFF is subjective.  I will go further.. for offensive line grades, PFF is "lousy".

[JMichael557]

The biggest error Grigson made was not drafting Collins out of LSU with one of the late round picks. That would have solved a lot of  problems.

[BleedBlu8792]

Obviously, he's just trying to get people to talk about his article, and he's succeeding. At least a little bit.

Like the OP said, there's nothing new in his piece. And I agree with you, "lousy" isn't exactly helpful in describing the line. I always go to Ben Gundy's assessments. He watches every block and gives a fair opinion. But even he doesn't know the assignments.

I will agree with Doyle on one thing, and I've said this from the very beginning. The GM's #1 priority should be to protect the franchise. To me, that means building the best O line he possibly could. Even if it means over paying or over drafting. Grigs did some of that with Cherilus and Herrimann, but not enough IMHO.

I guess the good news is that if a "Lousy" O line can get this team to the AFC Championship game, then a slight improvement may get us farther?

I'm sure Grigson thought he would have faired a little better with the picks of Holmes and Thornton. Slowly they are getting there and if Thornton has slimmed down I think we will see improvement from him when given the chance. Injuries have been an absolute bane for this team on the OL for what seems like 10 years. I believe the talent is there however there has been absolutely no continuity at all. From the looks of it, the coaching staff is knocking that out first at camp, even with Lance Louis in there. Build the continuity and let these guys grow together instead constantly interchanging them.

Our receiving core is so improved that if Luck can't find an open target quickly with this group, something is terribly wrong. Luck and the skill positions will help out our OL tremendously

[RomanianColtsFan]

Doyel is worse than Kravitz. At least Kravitz wrote articles after the fact, not before.

[pgt_rob]

Grigson's attempts to improve the Oline the last couple yrs have been puzzling. Cross your fingers.......again.

 

That's my thought on it as well. He has drafted guys and signed guys but..... none of them can seem to fit the bill except for Mewhort. Is it pretty difficult to find a player that is good at their position anymore? Hoping to see Herremans pan out.

[krunk]

Kinda hard to evaluate the Oline while they are running around in shorts

 

 

Then don't you think the article could have waited until he saw some actual practices in pads?

[Smonroe]

I'm sure Grigson thought he would have faired a little better with the picks of Holmes and Thornton. Slowly they are getting there and if Thornton has slimmed down I think we will see improvement from him when given the chance. Injuries have been an absolute bane for this team on the OL for what seems like 10 years. I believe the talent is there however there has been absolutely no continuity at all. From the looks of it, the coaching staff is knocking that out first at camp, even with Lance Louis in there. Build the continuity and let these guys grow together instead constantly interchanging them.

Our receiving core is so improved that if Luck can't find an open target quickly with this group, something is terribly wrong. Luck and the skill positions will help out our OL tremendously

 

I know the conventional wisdom is that you don't overpay or overdraft for interior linemen.  People who know the NFL a lot better than I do think it's a mistake.  I think you're correct in saying that Grigson is trying, but some of the guys just haven't panned out.  I'm not one of those people who think we should go after every available free agent, but when there's an all pro G available and we pass on him, I have to wonder what our priorities are?

 

Even with the improved receiving corps, I hate to see Luck scrambling around and getting hit after he's thrown.  I understand that a lot of that is on him.  I've said it before, say what you want about Jerry Jones, but he's built the best O line in pro football.  There's no reason why we shouldn't be doing the same. 

[GoColts8818]

The Colts have a proven lineman in Castonzo. I leave Mewhort off because of the position switch, I remember not being impressed with him at right tackle last year the couple of times he played it. Until the others do it on the field then yes everyone should still be concerned about the oline.

[Smonroe]

The Colts have a proven lineman in Castonzo. I leave Mewhort off because of the position switch, I remember not being impressed with him at right tackle last year the couple of times he played it. Until the others do it on the field then yes everyone should still be concerned about the oline.

 

I think we're all still concerned about the O line.  What I object to is how he wrote the article just to be controversial.  Yes, we know the O line wasn't great, but I don't think it was "Lousy" either.

 

He could have stated in the article the fact that Luck was sacked less than Rodgers, Eli, Big Ben, Wilson, and 16 other starting QBs (including Romo who IMHO has the best O Line in the NFL).   I think Mediocre is a lot better description that Lousy.

 

We all want improvement.  Protecting the franchise is more important than bringing in WRs or even improving the defense in my book.

[ztboiler]

It looks like Doyel's article reveals a subplot on this forum...many appear to have a sibling relationship with the O-line ie. I may pick on my little brother, but don't you ever let me find you picking on my little brother!

[CoachLite]

It's now up to Joe Gilbert to "coach 'em up". If he just says "go out and do what you do" we're in deep (trouble).

[LockeDown]

Maybe we could convince Doyle to leave Indy and return to Memphis. Doing so would simultaneously raise the average IQ in both cities. 

 

Thhhuffering Thuckatash....that sounded like a shot.

[Coffeedrinker]

Thhhuffering Thuckatash....that sounded like a shot.

Based on your response I assume you're from Memphis

 

Just joking, it does sound like a shot but he's saying that Doyle brings down the average IQ of Indy but he would raise the average IQ of Memphis.

[Superman]

It looks like Doyel's article reveals a subplot on this forum...many appear to have a sibling relationship with the O-line ie. I may pick on my little brother, but don't you ever let me find you picking on my little brother!

 

That's not my issue at all. I just think it's dumb to write off the entire unit based on a presumption that none of them are any good. If it were up to people like this, young players would never develop.

[CoachLite]

That's not my issue at all. I just think it's dumb to write off the entire unit based on a presumption that none of them are any good. If it were up to people like this, young players would never develop.

But that's the way many folks on these forums think - that initial talent is the sole determinant of performance. It's not.

[Track Guy]

Mewhort at RT will be interesting. I really think he has the skill set to be a fantastic RG, because he can handle 1-on-1 pass protection against interior rushers extremely well, which is something an RG has to do more often than an LG. He's got the length of a tackle, and I do think he'll probably be an upgrade over Cherilus in run blocking which is important. 

 

In regards to the article, I think Thornton is more likely than Louis to be the guy at LG moving forward.

[ColtStronger]

Louis over Reitz is just unbelievable. It's as if the Colts are so set on Reitz being the swing guy, the go-to backup, that they aren't even considering him as a starter. That seems to be the story of Reitz career with the Colts.

That is exactly what it is!  I saw a segment stating with (Steve Andress I believe) they want him as a backup in case of injury and there is plenty of competition at G with LL TH DT HT.

[ColtsLegacy]

That is exactly what it is! I saw a segment stating with (Steve Andress I believe) they want him as a backup in case of injury and there is plenty of competition at G with LL TH DT HT.

That's *ic. Hopefully DT gets and stays healthy because he's our best shot at a quality LG (assuming Todd is RG and Reitz is not in the picture).

[ztboiler]

That's not my issue at all. I just think it's dumb to write off the entire unit based on a presumption that none of them are any good. If it were up to people like this, young players would never develop

I was merely referencing the duality, in general, of folks that might be jumping Doyel for what he wrote but post with the same tone the other 364 days of the year to the effect that the O-line sucks.

 

There is only one path to the O-line that everyone wants - and it requires a maturation of committed resources.  It's OK to want yesterday what you can't have until tomorrow as long as you understand that the enemy of getting it tomorrow is trying to get it today!

[krunk]

Colts looking to find a consistent starting five along the offensive line

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/8/3/9092587/colts-looking-to-find-a-consistent-starting-five-along-the-offensive-line

[Colts_Fan12]

Evan Mathis

he's too good a Guard for Grigson to sign

[ColtsLegacy]

Colts looking to find a consistent starting five along the offensive line

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/8/3/9092587/colts-looking-to-find-a-consistent-starting-five-along-the-offensive-line

 

 

Not one mention of Joe Reitz.

[Valpo2004]

Sigh Colts line is better then people give it credit for.  2nd worst among playoff teams sounds bad until you realize the worlds "among playoff teams"

 

Is it elite?  No . . . could it use improvements yes.  Is it like the worst offensive line football has ever seen.  Certainly not.

[ztboiler]

Not one mention of Joe Reitz.

I hear you on the Reitz bandwagon...but in fairness to the staff, it's a whole lot easier to plug Reitz back in at LG if you aren't pleased with Thornton, Louis or DT than it is to try to get continuity with one of those 3 in week 4 after Reitz gets dinged up.

 

Furthermore, I'd suggest that the emphasis on Reitz as the swing tackle is for 3 very good reasons.  1) He has the athletic talent to play well in space against premier edge rushers, and has some quality snaps under his belt to demonstrate that further development could bear fruit at the position.  2)  We really need a 3rd tackle that can play with this group and have solid chemistry.  3)  Playing on the edge moves Reitz away from the interior activity chaos where he has been so injury prone as a G.  There are fewer random injury opportunities at T than at G. 

[Gavin]

I hear you on the Reitz bandwagon...but in fairness to the staff, it's a whole lot easier to plug Reitz back in at LG if you aren't pleased with Thornton, Louis or DT than it is to try to get continuity with one of those 3 in week 4 after Reitz gets dinged up.

 

Furthermore, I'd suggest that the emphasis on Reitz as the swing tackle is for 3 very good reasons.  1) He has the athletic talent to play well in space against premier edge rushers, and has some quality snaps under his belt to demonstrate that further development could bear fruit at the position.  2)  We really need a 3rd tackle that can play with this group and have solid chemistry.  3)  Playing on the edge moves Reitz away from the interior activity chaos where he has been so injury prone as a G.  There are fewer random injury opportunities at T than at G. 

Personally I think you start the best 5 regardless of benefits of Reitz being a 3rd Tackle....Putting the best 5 out there to start is way more important...I know you know that, If Thornton or Louis stink it up (multiple years worth of history says Louis will....He is who he is at this point...I still aint quit on Thornton yet but that's mainly do to age rather then any proof on film he will be better....And really I think his starting days could be over already  barring injury to Louis and hopefully Reitz) then you put Reitz in at LG and dump some dead weight (Louis) and absorb the $12,500 cap hit(And promote an O Lineman off the PS if he is ready) or you bench him for Reitz...If Reitz gets injured at LG then that's unfortunate but so be it because at least staff is trying to put the best 5 O Linemen out there

[krunk]

Not one mention of Joe Reitz.

 

 

Yeah I know.

[ztboiler]

Personally I think you start the best 5 regardless of benefits of Reitz being a 3rd Tackle....Putting the best 5 out there to start is way more important...I know you know that, If Thornton or Louis stink it up (multiple years worth of history says Louis will....He is who he is at this point...I still aint quit on Thornton yet but that's mainly do to age rather then any proof on film he will be better....And really I think his starting days could be over already  barring injury to Louis and hopefully Reitz) then you put Reitz in at LG and dump some dead weight (Louis) and absorb the $12,500 cap hit(And promote an O Lineman off the PS if he is ready) or you bench him for Reitz...If Reitz gets injured at LG then that's unfortunate but so be it because at least staff is trying to put the best 5 O Linemen out there

I don't think anyone, especially the staff, is counting on Louis as a starter.  They are simply letting Thornton earn his way back into the lineup.  Unlike our fans, our coaches aren't wringing their hands over whether Thornton can play or not.  They've seen enough to know he can play now, and that his ceiling is still tremendously high.  Since DT hasn't been released, we also know they factor him into the mix - and that he may be a much more viable option than we expected during the off season.  

 

As for Reitz and the best 5, that is a stretch for me as an interior player.  Put me in the camp that expected Reitz to be the starting RT this year while we developed U. John or a rookie behind him and Mewhort to stay put at LG.  I'm surprised that we didn't go that route - and yes, I think Reitz is one of our best 5.  I did not, however, envision a scenario that put Reitz back on the interior as a projected starter - and still don't.  

 

Furthermore, the whole equation starts to make even more sense if you believe that Mewhort is a plus run blocker at RT - and he probably is.  The things we could do with a mauler at RT and Thorton or DT pulling from the left could be transformational.  Reitz might be able to do some of that from either spot, but I don't think any of us believe he is quite as mean as Thornton and Mewhort in their core desire for physical play.

[Gavin]

I don't think anyone, especially the staff, is counting on Louis as a starter.  They are simply letting Thornton earn his way back into the lineup.  Unlike our fans, our coaches aren't wringing their hands over whether Thornton can play or not.  They've seen enough to know he can play now, and that his ceiling is still tremendously high.  Since DT hasn't been released, we also know they factor him into the mix - and that he may be a much more viable option than we expected during the off season.  

 

As for Reitz and the best 5, that is a stretch for me as an interior player.  Put me in the camp that expected Reitz to be the starting RT this year while we developed U. John or a rookie behind him and Mewhort to stay put at LG.  I'm surprised that we didn't go that route - and yes, I think Reitz is one of our best 5.  I did not, however, envision a scenario that put Reitz back on the interior as a projected starter - and still don't.  

 

Furthermore, the whole equation starts to make even more sense if you believe that Mewhort is a plus run blocker at RT - and he probably is.  The things we could do with a mauler at RT and Thorton or DT pulling from the left could be transformational.  Reitz might be able to do some of that from either spot, but I don't think any of us believe he is quite as mean as Thornton and Mewhort in their core desire for physical play.

Agree with much of what you say here with the exception of our staff not being sold on if Thornton can play or not at the nfl level, I mean he was benched presumably for poor play last year though some of that may have been injury related

[southwest1]

Obviously, he's just trying to get people to talk about his article, and he's succeeding.  At least a little bit.

 

Like the OP said, there's nothing new in his piece.  And I agree with you, "lousy" isn't exactly helpful in describing the line.  I always go to Ben Gundy's assessments.  He watches every block and gives a fair opinion.  But even he doesn't know the assignments.

 

I will agree with Doyle on one thing, and I've said this from the very beginning.  The GM's #1 priority should be to protect the franchise.  To me, that means building the best O line he possibly could.  Even if it means over paying or over drafting.  Grigs did some of that with Cherilus and Herrimann, but not enough IMHO. 

 

I guess the good news is that if a "Lousy" O line can get this team to the AFC Championship game, then a slight improvement may get us farther?

Nice post Smonroe. Yeah, I miss the days when articles both in print & online used to be about evaluating lines & substance not what controversial title can I display prominently to tick fans off & skyrocket my readership. I gotta see the 3rd preseason game 1st to see how well we generate holes for Gore, time for Luck with less hits, & what our pass rush looks like. 

 

Uh huh. 1 more huge step to take. Along with no more mop the floor blow outs by Pittsburgh & that East coast team that will remain unnamed. Like krunk & BOTT said, it's premature to judge blocking in just shorts & a tshirt. 

[ztboiler]

Agree with much of what you say here with the exception of our staff not being sold on if Thornton can play or not at the nfl level, I mean he was benched presumably for poor play last year though some of that may have been injury related

I think that the only people that believe Thornton was benched purely for poor play are those people for whom it fits their narrative.

[Superman]

I think that the only people that believe Thornton was benched purely for poor play are those people for whom it fits their narrative.

 

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that a third year player who played two different positions and had multiple injuries might still be capable of playing well.

[BOTT]

Then don't you think the article could have waited until he saw some actual practices in pads?

Herremans has been in the league a decade

Thornton has played 2 seasons and has yet to show he can consistently start in the NFL

Plenty of tape on Louis

I hope he is wrong, but it's football season and the guy has to write about something. You gotta admit it's disappointing going into season 4 of the Grigson era and the Oline is still a big question mark.

[a06cc]

With whoever starts next season I truly believe we'll be fine. The only thing that holds this team back are injuries. I hope we can stay healthy. We have depth at key positions this season finally. Only when we all see how the roster shapes out may prove my theory.

[Gavin]

I think that the only people that believe Thornton was benched purely for poor play are those people for whom it fits their narrative.

Right, He did get injured which no doubt contributed to his benching but I think the poor play was a factor and he was playing poorly prior to the injury

[CroatianColtsFan21]

Maybe we could convince Doyle to leave Indy and return to Memphis. Doing so would simultaneously raise the average IQ in both cities.

Ha ha zing!

[ztboiler]

Right, He did get injured which no doubt contributed to his benching but I think the poor play was a factor and he was playing poorly prior to the injury.

I'd never argue that he didn't need to play better.  In fact, a stretch of poor play even meets my expectations for a second year player in the trenches - and that goes double for a late 3rd round pick.  

 

However, we are also forgetting that Thornton graded out quite positively during the first third of the season....and the same people that now say that he can't play a lick are the same people that were very pleased with him prior to the "Great AQ Shipley Scandal of 2014"....or however folks refer to that utopic period early last season where they were actually happy with our O-line progress.  

 

Of course, that has all been purged from our memory now.

[krunk]

I think the line is going to be just fine as long as injuries don't decimate it.   To me the run blocking is a bigger concern than the pass blocking.  It's interesting to see what happens with Donald Thomas.  The Colts are wise to bring him along slowly like they are doing and not rush him out there.  If he remains healthy through the preseason he may not begin the season as the starter, but I don't think it would take him very long during the season to crack the starting lineup at that LG position.

 

That's  a really good line up with Costanzo, Thomas, Holmes, Herremans, Mewhort when you look at run blocking and that's more than good enough for pass blocking.  Plus you'd have some solid back ups in Thorton, Louis, and Reitz..  If Thomas for some reason does not make it back that's still not a bad lineup for run blocking with Costanzo, Reitz/Lance Louis/Thornton(whoever the left guard would be) Holmes, Herremans, and Mewhort.  I don't have much issue with that group being able to open up some holes for Gore/Herron/Robinson/Ballard or whoever.   Either one of the lineups I mentioned will do well enough to pass block for Luck as well.    I think the injury bug and lack of continuity is the largest factor.  We've got guys who can execute.