If you can only fire one

[gacoop1]

It's unanimous,  "Fire Pagano", done deal. 

[jshipp23]

When we do win, it's not because of Pagano...We got plenty of talent, we need another cb, rb, olbs, and an Ilb..All teams have holes, coaches job is to mask and gameplan to hide those holes..Pagano is completely clueless..Put it this way, he costs us at least 2 games a yr on just in game calls and clock management alone,  nevermind the gameplan. .A good coach wins you 2 games a year..With a legitimate coach this team would be 11-5 or 12-4..We have young talent that will get better, and are I expect a defensive minded draft and free agency to really shore up our deficiencies. ..Its really sad we r gonna give the keys to an incompetent bum...

[jshipp23]

1 hour ago, indyagent17 said:

Grigson goes, The lack of talent on this team is 100% his issue. Pagano coached us to 11-5 three years in a row and 3 playoff wins. He is not the greatest coach but he is acceptable plus a new GM will most likely bring a new coach anyway

Pagano and coach don't belong in same sentence. .We were 11-5 cause Luck saved us with miracle 2nd half comebacks...

[#12.]

I want them both gone, but I can't believe Chuck is winning.  Outside the QB, this is one of the worst rosters in football, and it's the product of five drafts and a ridiculous amount of money spent in free agency.  This roster is arguably worse now than the day Grigson was hired.

 

 

[#12.]

11 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

It's unanimous,  "Fire Pagano", done deal. 

Don't be misled.  If there were a 3rd option, "fire both", option #3 would win in a landslide.

[chad72]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

The Pats game last year, the staff did a good job addressing their blocking scheme. Unfortunately, the staff made other mistakes in that game...

 

Yeah, it just took a couple of lop sided losses in the regular season and a couple of lop sided losses in the playoffs in similar fashion before they finally decided to do something about it. 

[AZColt11]

Well, if you are going to fire Grigs, I think it's only fair to let the new GM pick his HC and that might not be Pagano.  So assuming Pags was still here I have no other option than to pick Chuck.

[bluephantom87]

7 hours ago, Superman said:

Pagano. Coaching is the reason this team isn't in the playoffs. That's not to say the roster is good because it's full of holes, but good coaching would have this team at 12 wins right now.

 

• Lions loss -- poor clock management hurt the team's chances of winning
• Broncos loss -- poor play calling hurt the team's chances of winning (not just at the end, but blocking Miller with a TE is a great example
• Jags loss -- poor game planning
• First Texans loss -- inability to adjust to their counter scheme in the second half
• Second Texans loss -- terrible game planning

 

The roster building hit a reset last offseason. Grigson made plenty of mistakes and missed lots of picks, and he should probably be held accountable for that, also. But what's holding this team back right now is poor coaching, so if I had to choose, it's not even a difficult choice for me.

 

Agree and this is SPOT on. Chuck also has a habit of repeating the same mistakes over and when asked by the media about said mistakes in a game Chuck often replies with the I wouldn't change a thing comment.  To me it doesn't show growth as a first time hc five years in nor does it put the team in a position to win if you come across that SAME situation at a crucial moment in a game i.e the TE blocking Clowney who was dominating at the time yielding the same results. I'm still not a fan of the playcalling from his buddy Chud who by no means is dynamic. What happened to the no huddle in which Luck seems to excel in. I'm not saying it should be the staple of the offense but be used as a change of pace to go along with a quick passing game. Why was the pitiful invisible man Josh McNary even on the field starting when you had some viable young talent at hand? I can go on and on but I have issues with Grigs also but Chuck is the biggest problem to me.

[Gyworks]

6 hours ago, crunked said:

I say fire Grigson, Pagano is an average coach and an average coach (in my opinion) can win with superior talent......but even the best coach in world would be limited by the talent on the field (ex. taking 8-8 talent and finishing with a 10-6 record) . <----that answers this thread, but ultimately both Grigson and Pagano are average, and 8-8 one could argue is their "norm".

My God, this is the core of the problem exactly. If you want a championship team you simply can’t settle with average coaching and average play. Pagano proved enough times that he unable to coach the team to play on a consistently high level and his inability to game plan against the Patriots and Steelers is just too obvious. He just simply lacks the brains, the smarts and the guts to be competitive in the Playoffs so we have to get rid of him.

[Crunked]

13 hours ago, CoachLite said:

Both Grigson and Pagano have shown the statistical phenomenon "regression to the mean". In the long term, their norm is also their ceiling.

I think that is what I said in slow average white-guy-ese lol

[BCoop]

Grigson has drafted 9-10 starters in the past 2 drafts (including what looks to be 6 just from this past draft) and has the Colts positioned to have $50+ million in cap room this offseason. He's righted the ship IMO and you can't cut him loose now that it looks like he's figured things out. If he whiffs again on his signings this offseason and screws the pooch on one of his top 2 picks in the draft, then we can re-visit this discussion for him.

 

Pagano, on the other hand, is the one that has shown zero improvement in his decision making and strategy on the sidelines. If you have to pick one, it's gotta be him.

 

I think this discussion is moot anyway. If Irsay wants to make a change, it will be an all-or-nothing situation. I think he made that clear last year when he gave both extensions and told everyone they were in it together moving forward. 

[TDewar1987]

This is how Pags will be remembered.

 

 

 

[Gavin]

I'm in complete shock of the results of this poll.

[ztboiler]

16 hours ago, Superman said:

Pagano. Coaching is the reason this team isn't in the playoffs. That's not to say the roster is good because it's full of holes, but good coaching would have this team at 12 wins right now.

 

 

13 hours ago, chad72 said:

1. Antonio Brown has to be taken away, everyone and their mother knows he has to be, but let us play him 1-on-1 with a banged up or healthy Vontae, no match every single time.

 

Grigson is the natural lightning rod among the forum....easy to understand.  Simply put, he has the job that we all think we could do - or at least its the one we understand better.  Any reasonable person knows they can't do Pagano's job.  Of course we can't do Grigson's either, but if you're in business or any form of leadership, you tend to relate to Grigon's job and picture yourself in it.  That leads to the basic tendency to blame him - and he deserves plenty.

 

Both of you make great points.  Whether you keep Grigson or not, there is at least a case to be made both ways.  In Pagano's case, the evidence has really been in for awhile, and he just confirmed the verdict week after week. The evidence is, in fact, quite specific.

 

We knew coming into 2016, after 4 years of Pagano, that he was an outstanding leader of men who carried an amazing inspirational story.  The turnaround he led is historic, and should not be overlooked.  

 

We also knew that he and his former staff were deficient in specific gameplanning against elite competition, lacked an offensive identity, and started slow to close fast.  These are the reasons why such a successful coach was assumed to be fired at the conclusion of 2015.  None of that was even very debateable.  There was sufficient evidence to terminate at the time, and not just because of a poor 2015.

 

What we didn't know about Pagano, was whether he could take all of the positives about his leadership ability and assemble a new staff that could scheme with the elite coaches in the game and change the patterns that condemned him for the previous 4 years.

 

There was plenty of other evidence throughout the year, but Chad's quote above is the best specific citation.  That defensive gameplan against Pitt and AB all but assured that the Colt's could not win that game.  An undermanned team going in, literally had no chance by singling up Vontae on AB. And...they needed 3 touchdowns before they even believed it themselves!

 

More evidence was to come against Houston....but that is the moment of confirmation that Pagano's new staff doesn't yet get it...and there is no reason to believe that they ever will.  

 

Love Pagano.  Really, truly love the guy.  But, you must confront the brutal facts.

[LockeDown]

Didn't Terry Bradshaw just come out and say Tomlin was not a great x and o's coach, but more or less a cheerleader?   He has had a lot of success.  However, he has had Dick Lebeau, Bruce Arians and Todd Haley, who have all been very good at what they do.  We blame either Pagano or Grigson for our failures, but coordinators make a difference.  Last year, we cleared out most of them.   We hired Philbin, who most of us agree has done a pretty darn good job with these guys.  I don't have a huge issue with Pagano not being brilliant, but my problem is that he hires his buddies who aren't very good.  If we hire a great staff, then we really see how talented our team is or not.  Case in point, look at Miami.  They hired Adam Gase and our guy Clyde Christenson and they turned the perennial mediocre Dolphins offense into a playoff looking team. 

[NannyMcafee]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

Pagano. Coaching is the reason this team isn't in the playoffs. That's not to say the roster is good because it's full of holes, but good coaching would have this team at 12 wins right now.

 

• Lions loss -- poor clock management hurt the team's chances of winning
• Broncos loss -- poor play calling hurt the team's chances of winning (not just at the end, but blocking Miller with a TE is a great example
• Jags loss -- poor game planning
• First Texans loss -- inability to adjust to their counter scheme in the second half
• Second Texans loss -- terrible game planning

 

The roster building hit a reset last offseason. Grigson made plenty of mistakes and missed lots of picks, and he should probably be held accountable for that, also. But what's holding this team back right now is poor coaching, so if I had to choose, it's not even a difficult choice for me.

 Exactly this. 

[tfunky14]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

Pagano. Coaching is the reason this team isn't in the playoffs. That's not to say the roster is good because it's full of holes, but good coaching would have this team at 12 wins right now.

 

• Lions loss -- poor clock management hurt the team's chances of winning
• No it didn't, your making an excuse
• Broncos loss -- poor play calling hurt the team's chances of winning (not just at the end, but blocking Miller with a TE is a great example
• what are you talkng about, the Colts were in this game, Miller made a play at the end to win it, it sucked but that happens
• Jags loss -- poor game planning
• Nope, Colts were flat, I blame the players
• First Texans loss -- inability to adjust to their counter scheme in the second half
• Make a defenseive stop, players missed so many tackles in that game
• Second Texans loss -- terrible game planning
• I didn't see this game so no comment here

 

The roster building hit a reset last offseason. Grigson made plenty of mistakes and missed lots of picks, and he should probably be held accountable for that, also. But what's holding this team back right now is poor coaching, so if I had to choose, it's not even a difficult choice for me.

No, not even close

[Colts_Fan12]

1 hour ago, Gavin said:

I'm in complete shock of the results of this poll.

Why

 

[aReggie7]

If I could only fire one it would be Pagano.

 

His teams consistently come out flat, look unprepared, and my impression is there is a lack of accountability. I feel we have seen the same issues with Pagano coached teams for the last 5 years.

 

I said in the Rex Ryan thread that I think Ryan is more of a salesman/motivational type of coach. I think Pagano is that type too but, obviously has a different way compared to Rex. These type of coaches tend to do their best early on which was the case with Rex in NY and Pagano in Indy.

 

I think this team maxed out what they can do under Pagano. Irsay knows this too. It's why he only offered him a 1 year extension 2 months after coaching the team to the AFC Championship, and why he reached out to Saban/Harbaugh/Payton before letting himself be sold on the idea of giving Chuck another extension.

 

Grigson certainly deserves a lot of blame too, though. I don't think he does a good job of carrying out the vision for the team. Grigson/Pagano talk of building a monster defense but Grigson's actions during his time as the GM say that he is building an offensive minded team...he even admitted that this past week on the radio. He has made some horrendous personnel decisions BUT some of them I blame on Pagano. (Smith, probably TJ Green, maybe Werner is on Pagano)

[Steamboat_Shaun]

18 hours ago, Flash7 said:

The Oakland Raiders O-line physically manhandled the Colts defense. Sure, better coaching and scheme would've helped some, but it wouldn't have stopped the D from getting thrown around like little children. The desparity between the talent in their offense, especially their O-line, was too much for any coaching to have made a difference. 

 

The defense needs playmakers badly.

 

The Raiders o-line physically manhandled a lot of defenses this year, including the Broncos. Their o-line is second only to Dallas at this point. Not sure that's the best barometer for measuring defensive talent.

[Myles]

Grigson.   This team has lots of holes to fill and I'd like to get a new GM to start putting his mark on the team.

 

This was a tough choice as I believe Pagano needs to go too.

[esmort]

1 hour ago, tfunky14 said:

No, not even close

 

You are in complete denial.... I honestly wonder what Grigson and Pagano would have to do for you to see their incompetence and stop defending them at every turn. Would a 0-16 season do it or for you, or would you still give them "one more season"? 

[Flash7]

25 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

The Raiders o-line physically manhandled a lot of defenses this year, including the Broncos. Their o-line is second only to Dallas at this point. Not sure that's the best barometer for measuring defensive talent.

Agreed. My point was that coaching wasn't the issue there, and it wouldn't be fair to blame Pagano for that game. The talent gap was too much.

 

Coincidentally, I recall many in the board wanting us to go after Osemelle, Sean Smith, and Bruce Irvin. But of course, Grigson doesn't go after proven talent.

[tfunky14]

16 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

You are in complete denial.... I honestly wonder what Grigson and Pagano would have to do for you to see their incompetence and stop defending them at every turn. Would a 0-16 season do it or for you, or would you still give them "one more season"? 

No I'm not...I just don't give up on someone because of one bad season. Pagano had three 11 win season with a trip to the AFC championship game. People on here who want Grigson and Pagano gone are people who just sit and listen to the media all day. 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

[Colts_Fan12]

6 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

Coincidentally, I recall many in the board wanting us to go after Osemelle, Sean Smith, and Bruce Irvin. But of course, Grigson doesn't go after proven talent.

Truth!!

[Valpo2004]

19 hours ago, Superman said:

Pagano. Coaching is the reason this team isn't in the playoffs. That's not to say the roster is good because it's full of holes, but good coaching would have this team at 12 wins right now.

 

• Lions loss -- poor clock management hurt the team's chances of winning
• Broncos loss -- poor play calling hurt the team's chances of winning (not just at the end, but blocking Miller with a TE is a great example
• Jags loss -- poor game planning
• First Texans loss -- inability to adjust to their counter scheme in the second half
• Second Texans loss -- terrible game planning

 

The roster building hit a reset last offseason. Grigson made plenty of mistakes and missed lots of picks, and he should probably be held accountable for that, also. But what's holding this team back right now is poor coaching, so if I had to choose, it's not even a difficult choice for me.

 

Re: Lion's loss. . . as opposed to the complete inability of the defense to tackle.  Sorry, Theo Riddick looked like freaking Barry Sanders, making like 4 people miss on every single play.  Sorry if I can't lay the blame at poor clock management.  Maybe clock management could have been better, but it wouldn't have even been necessary if the defense could tackle.  

 

And so often the players where in the right place to make a defensive play (which is coaching) but just couldn't wrap up and tackle (which is an overall lack of talent.)

 

Sorry for me it's Grigson.  The list of his poor decisions is a mile long.  The team has had the same obvious problems every year for most of his tenure here.  But it takes him years to fix them.  He lets good players walk over small amounts of money, he also when choosing between two players, chooses the worse of the two players and then proceeds to pay that player more then the better player got paid elsewhere.

[esmort]

2 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

No I'm not...I just don't give up on someone because of one bad season. Pagano had three 11 win season with a trip to the AFC championship game. People on here who want Grigson and Pagano gone are people who just sit and listen to the media all day. 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

 

Their issues have been apparent for more than just one season, this just happens to be the season where Luck wasn't able to bail them out. Luck has some things he needs to improve on, but he is not the problem ... and many of Luck's issues are a direct result of more of Pagano's and Grigson's incompetence. The fact that somehow you can still find a way in your head to justify defending them is just mind boggling. 

[indy1888]

5 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

No I'm not...I just don't give up on someone because of one bad season. Pagano had three 11 win season with a trip to the AFC championship game. People on here who want Grigson and Pagano gone are people who just sit and listen to the media all day. 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

 

LOL.  Of all the major problems with this team you pick the one area that is probably the strongest on the team to blame.  Good job.

 

If all your concerned about are the W's, then why doesn't Pagano's record the last 2 years bother you? He hasn't got enough W's to even make the playoffs in the AFC South?

 

Manning did have "decent" defenses around him in his time here.  A couple years they were a top 10 defense and another year number 11 ranked.  Try again.

[esmort]

11 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Re: Lion's loss. . . as opposed to the complete inability of the defense to tackle.  Sorry, Theo Riddick looked like freaking Barry Sanders, making like 4 people miss on every single play.  Sorry if I can't lay the blame at poor clock management.  Maybe clock management could have been better, but it wouldn't have even been necessary if the defense could tackle.  

 

And so often the players where in the right place to make a defensive play (which is coaching) but just couldn't wrap up and tackle (which is an overall lack of talent.)

 

Sorry for me it's Grigson.  The list of his poor decisions is a mile long.  The team has had the same obvious problems every year for most of his tenure here.  But it takes him years to fix them.  He lets good players walk over small amounts of money, he also when choosing between two players, chooses the worse of the two players and then proceeds to pay that player more then the better player got paid elsewhere.

 

Mistackling is definitely a coachable issue. 

 

Not that I wouldn't like to see Grigson go as well.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, esmort said:

 

Mistackling is definitely a coachable issue. 

 

Not that I wouldn't like to see Grigson go as well.

I picked Grigson but in no way do I want to keep Pagano they both need to be canned together. hold another friendship meeting after this season but terminate the friendship this time and get this team back on the right track.

[chad72]

It is a case of "chicken" or the "egg" situation with both of them since both of them have known to have made their share of colossal mistakes.

 

It is about the direction where they are heading and if they have learned from their mistakes. Most of us here feel Grigson seems to have taken a slight turn for the better with his drafts and focus on OL and DL (next will be LBs including pass rushers, I hope), but Pagano has not shown the same. However, if Irsay is keen on tying them to the hip, he may give both of them the boot. Since the premise of the thread is however just letting one go, I have to lean towards letting Pagano and his coaches go.

[Gavin]

1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Why

 

Because I don't think Grigson has done enough good YET to offset all the bad he did and while I don't think Pagano is a good X's and O's coach and good at adjusting game plans a lot of the problems we had came down to execution. Some of that is certainly coaching as I have questioned play calling numerous times so I certainly get that and some of that is not sticking to game plans that have actually worked (Pagano problem). However when my GM repeatedly gives me bums like Greg Toler, Patrick Robinson and loads the roster with old has beens (Cole, Jackson, Johnson) that's ultimately going to make Paganos job as a coach harder (see some of the risks he took in games over the last couple years)

 

This post by no means is a pro Pagano post as I would not have brought either back after last year but I think Grigson has been the bigger problem

[Myles]

44 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

Manning was able to run an offense that made opposing teams abandon the running game.   That lead to many sacks of opposing QB's.   Pagano runs a conservative offense which puts our inferior defense in a bad spot.   So it is not Luck, it is Pagano.  

It is a team sport, the QB is not solely responsible for the "W's".

[Steamboat_Shaun]

43 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

No I'm not...I just don't give up on someone because of one bad season. Pagano had three 11 win season with a trip to the AFC championship game. People on here who want Grigson and Pagano gone are people who just sit and listen to the media all day. 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

 

The reaction I expect this post to get...

 

[Colts_Fan12]

21 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Because I don't think Grigson has done enough good YET to offset all the bad he did and while I don't think Pagano is a good X's and O's coach and good at adjusting game plans a lot of the problems we had came down to execution. Some of that is certainly coaching as I have questioned play calling numerous times so I certainly get that and some of that is not sticking to game plans that have actually worked (Pagano problem). However when my GM repeatedly gives me bums like Greg Toler, Patrick Robinson and loads the roster with old has beens (Cole, Jackson, Johnson) that's ultimately going to make Paganos job as a coach harder (see some of the risks he took in games over the last couple years)

 

This post by no means is a pro Pagano post as I would not have brought either back after last year but I think Grigson has been the bigger problem

Agree 100% I'm way more in favor of Pagano then Grigson but I also don't want either. They made me pick one lol and it was easily Grigson.

[tfunky14]

52 minutes ago, indy1888 said:

 

LOL.  Of all the major problems with this team you pick the one area that is probably the strongest on the team to blame.  Good job.  Sorry but Luck hasn't been the best and you don't have to look past last game

 

If all your concerned about are the W's, then why doesn't Pagano's record the last 2 years bother you? He hasn't got enough W's to even make the playoffs in the AFC South?

 

Manning did have "decent" defenses around him in his time here.  A couple years they were a top 10 defense and another year number 11 ranked.  Try again.  When? Enlighten me!

 

[Buddy Lee]

44 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Their issues have been apparent for more than just one season, this just happens to be the season where Luck wasn't able to bail them out. Luck has some things he needs to improve on, but he is not the problem ... and many of Luck's issues are a direct result of more of Pagano's and Grigson's incompetence. The fact that somehow you can still find a way in your head to justify defending them is just mind boggling. 

I cannot see blaming Luck. In his first three years he put the team on his back to get those 11 wins each year. 

 

Grigson is to blame for the current talent gap that the Colts suffer from but Grigs has shown improvement in his last couple of drafts. The 2013 draft was an unmitigated failure, So were a high percentage of FA signings. So Grigs shows some signs of improvement.

 

Pagano? Not so much. Same shortcomings. Same results. Poor game planning. No apparent holding players responsible for inexcusably bad play. For example, in the opening loss against the Lions where they ran wild, DQJ played every defensive snap. He had ZERO solo tackles and ONLY TWO assists. He missed more tackles than solos + assists. DQJ's game two was almost as bad.  Did Pagano sit him? No. 

 

 

[tfunky14]

25 minutes ago, Myles said:

Manning was able to run an offense that made opposing teams abandon the running game.   That lead to many sacks of opposing QB's.   Pagano runs a conservative offense which puts our inferior defense in a bad spot.   So it is not Luck, it is Pagano.  

It is a team sport, the QB is not solely responsible for the "W's".

It's a team spot than Pagano is not all the issues right?

[Mr. Irrelevant]

3 hours ago, LockeDown said:

Didn't Terry Bradshaw just come out and say Tomlin was not a great x and o's coach, but more or less a cheerleader?   He has had a lot of success.  However, he has had Dick Lebeau, Bruce Arians and Todd Haley, who have all been very good at what they do.  We blame either Pagano or Grigson for our failures, but coordinators make a difference.  Last year, we cleared out most of them.   We hired Philbin, who most of us agree has done a pretty darn good job with these guys.  I don't have a huge issue with Pagano not being brilliant, but my problem is that he hires his buddies who aren't very good.  If we hire a great staff, then we really see how talented our team is or not.  Case in point, look at Miami.  They hired Adam Gase and our guy Clyde Christenson and they turned the perennial mediocre Dolphins offense into a playoff looking team. 

Agree 100%! This is why I would say that Chud's game plan and offensive schemes has been the most disappointing this season. I really thought he would bring this offense to the next level, but I get that Chuck is ultimately to blame for this. 

 

Chuck would be good enough if he had stellar OC and DC to complement his strength and weakness, but is he clever enough to understand this and get those? Maybe not.

[tfunky14]

58 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Mistackling is definitely a coachable issue. 

 

Not that I wouldn't like to see Grigson go as well.

How you figure that?