If you can only fire one

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Re: Lion's loss. . . as opposed to the complete inability of the defense to tackle.  Sorry, Theo Riddick looked like freaking Barry Sanders, making like 4 people miss on every single play.  Sorry if I can't lay the blame at poor clock management.  Maybe clock management could have been better, but it wouldn't have even been necessary if the defense could tackle.  

 

And so often the players where in the right place to make a defensive play (which is coaching) but just couldn't wrap up and tackle (which is an overall lack of talent.)

 

Sorry for me it's Grigson.  The list of his poor decisions is a mile long.  The team has had the same obvious problems every year for most of his tenure here.  But it takes him years to fix them.  He lets good players walk over small amounts of money, he also when choosing between two players, chooses the worse of the two players and then proceeds to pay that player more then the better player got paid elsewhere.

 

I agree that tackling was the major issue in the opener. However, change the timing of that timeout, and the Colts probably win that game.

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

It's a team spot than Pagano is not all the issues right?

Absolutely right.    Grigson gets his share of the blame too.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Flash7 said:

Coincidentally, I recall many in the board wanting us to go after Osemelle, Sean Smith, and Bruce Irvin. But of course, Grigson doesn't go after proven talent.

 

Those three players signed for a combined $30m/year, $55m guaranteed. The Colts could have afforded one, at most, but still had Luck's contract pending.

 

Swinging big in the offseason wasn't really an option.

[Superman]

52 minutes ago, chad72 said:

It is a case of "chicken" or the "egg" situation with both of them since both of them have known to have made their share of colossal mistakes.

 

It is about the direction where they are heading and if they have learned from their mistakes. Most of us here feel Grigson seems to have taken a slight turn for the better with his drafts and focus on OL and DL (next will be LBs including pass rushers, I hope), but Pagano has not shown the same. However, if Irsay is keen on tying them to the hip, he may give both of them the boot. Since the premise of the thread is however just letting one go, I have to lean towards letting Pagano and his coaches go.

 

Another good post.

[indy1888]

16 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

Manning did have "decent" defenses around him in his time here.  A couple years they were a top 10 defense and another year number 11 ranked.  Try again.  When? Enlighten me!

 

Sure.  2002, 2005, 2007, 2008 just to name a few.

 

To say Manning "never" had a decent defense is pure nonsense.

[esmort]

28 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

How you figure that?

 

Why wouldn't fundamental tackling be a coachable/teachable skill? It's likevany other skill that may need to be coached up: just like hand placement & footwork for OL, pass rush moves for DL, route running for WR, etc, etc.... Pete Carroll has extensive instruction on the specific way he wants his player's to tackle.

 

IMO if it was 1 or 2 players mistackling maybe it's on those players, but when the defense in general seems to be poor at tackling that is a reflection of coaching. 

[tfunky14]

31 minutes ago, indy1888 said:

 

Sure.  2002, 2005, 2007, 2008 just to name a few.

 

To say Manning "never" had a decent defense is pure nonsense.

Only in 2007 did Manning have a overall top 3 defense.  

[tfunky14]

4 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Why wouldn't fundamental tackling be a coachable/teachable skill? It's likevany other skill that may need to be coached up: just like hand placement & footwork for OL, pass rush moves for DL, route running for WR, etc, etc.... Pete Carroll has extensive instruction on the specific way he wants his player's to tackle.

 

IMO if it was 1 or 2 players mistackling maybe it's on those players, but when the defense in general seems to be poor at tackling that is a reflection of coaching. 

And your speculating they never go over tackling in practice???

 

How about the players do their job!

[ztboiler]

38 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Those three players signed for a combined $30m/year, $55m guaranteed. The Colts could have afforded one, at most, but still had Luck's contract pending.

 

Swinging big in the offseason wasn't really an option.

And despite adding Irvin and Smith to their defense, Oakland still lags behind our Colts in Yds/game given up and is just ahead of us in points. 

 

The Raiders are winning...and winning cures everything, just like it did for us when we were winning.

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

And your speculating they never go over tackling in practice???

 

How about the players do their job!

They may go over it, but Pagano isn't getting it right.  

[LockeDown]

Irsay likes Pagano's personality.  He is a player's coach.  Irsay likes Grigson's "I can find a diamond in the rough"  attitude.   Irsay also liked Dungy (another nice guy).   His thinking (imo) is that Pagano, Grigson and Luck would "figure" it all out in a few years and by that time, we will have a Super Bowl ready team.   Well, Pagano's cancer interrupted the plan.  One less year for Pags to learn.  Also, we had tons of $$ for free agents.   Grigson wasn't ready for that.  He did the only thing he knew how to do...find players on the cheap.  Diamonds in the rough.  Immediately, he should have identified the need to build the Oline, but he didn't.  He patched it...and kept patching until Luck got hurt.  That's now a 2nd year interrupting Pags and Grigs growth.   A bad season and to keep their jobs, they fire most of the coaching staff.  Another lesson learned?  Bring your buddies in, but they better be good or they are gone.  Now, here we are.  Irsay has mercy on them, because he likes them and believes they are learning their lessons.  Armed with a good defensive draft in front of them and $$ for free agents, Irsay is betting they will make different decisions than they did early in their careers.  I do too.   I think Grigson will make good draft picks and (fingers crossed) make the right free agent signings that put us back on the map.   Pagano?  Well, he has 1 good coach (Philbin).   Imo, he should look at the season and make adjustments on his coaches again.  Bringing in a top notch coordinator/coach that makes sense, would be an indicator that he has learned as well.       

[Mr. Irrelevant]

5 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Irsay likes Pagano's personality.  He is a player's coach.  Irsay likes Grigson's "I can find a diamond in the rough"  attitude.   Irsay also liked Dungy (another nice guy).   His thinking (imo) is that Pagano, Grigson and Luck would "figure" it all out in a few years and by that time, we will have a Super Bowl ready team.   Well, Pagano's cancer interrupted the plan.  One less year for Pags to learn.  Also, we had tons of $$ for free agents.   Grigson wasn't ready for that.  He did the only thing he knew how to do...find players on the cheap.  Diamonds in the rough.  Immediately, he should have identified the need to build the Oline, but he didn't.  He patched it...and kept patching until Luck got hurt.  That's now a 2nd year interrupting Pags and Grigs growth.   A bad season and to keep their jobs, they fire most of the coaching staff.  Another lesson learned?  Bring your buddies in, but they better be good or they are gone.  Now, here we are.  Irsay has mercy on them, because he likes them and believes they are learning their lessons.  Armed with a good defensive draft in front of them and $$ for free agents, Irsay is betting they will make different decisions than they did early in their careers.  I do too.   I think Grigson will make good draft picks and (fingers crossed) make the right free agent signings that put us back on the map.   Pagano?  Well, he has 1 good coach (Philbin).   Imo, he should look at the season and make adjustments on his coaches again.  Bringing in a top notch coordinator/coach that makes sense, would be an indicator that he has learned as well.       

Very good post, especially the last point about Pagano.

[ReMeDy]

22 hours ago, Shepman said:

If you fire the GM you are basically firing the coach as well.

 

Not sure why your comment has no upvotes, other than me, because you're absolutely right. The GM will bring in his own guy, unless Irsay overrules him, but then the GM won't do as well, so yes, the poll should really say:

 

- Chuck Pagano
- Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson

There is no viable option for ONLY Ryan Grigson.

[Reboot]

5 minutes ago, ReMeDy said:

 

Not sure why your comment has no upvotes, other than me, because you're absolutely right. The GM will bring in his own guy, unless Irsay overrules him, but then the GM won't do as well, so yes, the poll should really say:

 

- Chuck Pagano
- Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson

There is no viable option for ONLY Ryan Grigson.

I had the same first reaction/thought as you.  Until it occurred to me that the one glaring exception I remembered was with the Colts, and Dungy and Polian. If you believe the stories, Irsay told Polian to get along with his pick for head coach, Dungy, and even sent them off to some room in a hotel in Florida to 'figure things out'.  Kinda reminds me of last year, and Pagano and Grigson being locked in a room and told to not come out until they 'get along'.

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2011/12/16/2640456/bill-polian-did-not-want-to-hire-tony-dungy-in-2002-might-want-norv

[krunk]

Get the man some talent and we'll be okay.

[Coltfreak]

18 hours ago, indyagent17 said:

Grigson goes, The lack of talent on this team is 100% his issue. Pagano coached us to 11-5 three years in a row and 3 playoff wins. He is not the greatest coach but he is acceptable plus a new GM will most likely bring a new coach anyway

 

 

You are wrongly assuming Pagano didnt have a say in the acquisitions....   there are a few players on the team that are ALL PAGANO.....  TJ Green for one  Andre Johnson, Werner...  CB Smith    it goes on and on but one thing in common... they all suck

[ztboiler]

3 minutes ago, krunk said:

Get the man some talent and we'll be okay.

You look at Chuck, and the leader he is, and you absolutely want that to be the case...that he just needs some talent.  

 

But...then you look at the specifics of his coaching deficiencies, and you look at the nature of the NFL in the salary cap era, and you might conclude that talent advantages are usually slim and difficult to sustain long term.  At that point, you start to feel uneasy, because you know that you won't always have more talent that then next guy, even if you do world-class personnel work...

 

Where I'll agree, is that Pagano may need a different kind of talent to succeed.  Dungy succeeded, in part, not just because Peyton was an all-time great, but because Peyton was the strongest, most demanding personality in the building who held everyone else accountable.  We had some players age out that provided some of that in Pagano's first 3 years.

[mahagga73]

I think Grigson has done a horrible job building a good team despite having the star QB under rookie contract for years. They look worse every year. Drafts have been not all that good overall, free agents have also been a mixed bag . He's done a mediocre job and it shows with this mediocre team. Not enamored with Pagano but I think he's decent enough, though they could and should do better. 

[Superman]

24 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

there are a few players on the team that are ALL PAGANO.....  TJ Green for one  Andre Johnson, Werner...  CB Smith

 

Based on what?

[indy1888]

58 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

Only in 2007 did Manning have a overall top 3 defense.  

 

So what?  You said he never had a decent defense?   You didn't say he never had a top 3 defense, you said "decent".   Bottom line is he had several decent defenses in his time here.  I'm sorry that the facts hurt your claim.

[esmort]

1 hour ago, tfunky14 said:

And your speculating they never go over tackling in practice???

 

How about the players do their job!

 

If the majority of "students" aren't getting it than it is the fault of the "teacher (or teachers)". Regardless the fault ultimately ends at Pagano since he is either doing the teaching or chose the teachers.

[BOTT]

7 hours ago, BCoop said:

Grigson has drafted 9-10 starters in the past 2 drafts (including what looks to be 6 just from this past draft) and has the Colts positioned to have $50+ million in cap room this offseason. He's righted the ship IMO and you can't cut him loose now that it looks like he's figured things out. If he whiffs again on his signings this offseason and screws the pooch on one of his top 2 picks in the draft, then we can re-visit this discussion for him.

 

Pagano, on the other hand, is the one that has shown zero improvement in his decision making and strategy on the sidelines. If you have to pick one, it's gotta be him.

 

I think this discussion is moot anyway. If Irsay wants to make a change, it will be an all-or-nothing situation. I think he made that clear last year when he gave both extensions and told everyone they were in it together moving forward. 

Drafting starters isn't exactly a great compliment.  Somebody has to start.  How about drafting difference makers.

[krunk]

50 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

You look at Chuck, and the leader he is, and you absolutely want that to be the case...that he just needs some talent.  

 

But...then you look at the specifics of his coaching deficiencies, and you look at the nature of the NFL in the salary cap era, and you might conclude that talent advantages are usually slim and difficult to sustain long term.  At that point, you start to feel uneasy, because you know that you won't always have more talent that then next guy, even if you do world-class personnel work...

 

Where I'll agree, is that Pagano may need a different kind of talent to succeed.  Dungy succeeded, in part, not just because Peyton was an all-time great, but because Peyton was the strongest, most demanding personality in the building who held everyone else accountable.  We had some players age out that provided some of that in Pagano's first 3 years.

I think he'll be alright.  He's no Bellichick but then again who is?   If a dumb bell like Mike Ditka can get to the Super Bowl I don't see why Pagano couldn't.  Somebody will try to argue with me on that note, but it's just how I feel. I just think if you give this guy the necessary pieces we may see a better end result.  Improve that defense and he may change some of his coaching style and game plans.  I'd be bombs away too if I know I had a bad defense and on top of that I can't even run the football.   I'll give it one more year as far as not making the playoffs.  If we don't get there next year then I'm done with the guy.  If we get in the tournament then I'll loosen the leash a little bit as long as we don't get in there and get smoked in the AFC Championship.  If we were to get smoked then I'm just about done because it's happened too many different times where we need to get over the hump and we fall short.

[BCoop]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

Drafting starters isn't exactly a great compliment.  Somebody has to start.  How about drafting difference makers.

 

I'm not sure what the standard is for being deemed a difference maker, but I'd consider Kelly, Geathers, Anderson all difference makers with Ridgeway, Clark, Green all having the potential to develop into that as well.

 

We started with basically nothing (I realize that's a fault of Grigson) and very few guys are difference makers immediately their rookie year. It takes time.

[BOTT]

24 minutes ago, BCoop said:

 

I'm not sure what the standard is for being deemed a difference maker, but I'd consider Kelly, Geathers, Anderson all difference makers with Ridgeway, Clark, Green all having the potential to develop into that as well.

 

We started with basically nothing (I realize that's a fault of Grigson) and very few guys are difference makers immediately their rookie year. It takes time.

I guess I just could have said elite players. Guys like Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Terrell Suggs, Luke Kuechly, etc.  Those are the type of players that turn teams around.

[dgambill]

It's Irsay for me......mostly because I want to be the owner lol....but secondly leadership comes from the top down...he holds the keys to the franchise from letting go of Peyton and Polian to hiring Grigson and Pagano....to his drug issues and his *ic twitter messages etc. He is responsible for the team being where it is.....but for your real question its Pagano. The consistency is not there....the progression of our young players isn't there...and the game planning and execution just isn't where it needs to be. Grigson has been up and down and I'm not thrilled with him....certainly following in a HOF GM's footsteps is hard and he needs to continue to build this team from the inside out...he really doesn't have much room for error. Also depending on the coach they may want to work with a different GM so he is on thin ice himself.

[Superman]

34 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I guess I just could have said elite players. Guys like Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Terrell Suggs, Luke Kuechly, etc.  Those are the type of players that turn teams around.

 

Besides Sanders, they were all drafted in the top 11 of the draft, where Grigson never picks.

 

Not defending Grigson, he's still not done a good job drafting...

[JRnINDY]

Here it is.....preach it...

 

[Coltfreak]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Based on what?

He admitted pounding one the desk wanting Green.   Andre was one of his Miami boys   He personally went to Smiths pro day..... etc etc 

[coltsva]

5 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

 

 

You are wrongly assuming Pagano didnt have a say in the acquisitions....   there are a few players on the team that are ALL PAGANO.....  TJ Green for one  Andre Johnson, Werner...  CB Smith    it goes on and on but one thing in common... they all suck

I would imagine Grigson and Pagano discussed all the acquisitions, but it's my opinion that Pagano had a big say in Vonte Davis trade and the Trent trade.

 

As a DB coach I'm sure Pagano was all in on getting a top corner.

 

As for the Trent trade, if it was all Grigson why would Pagano get in front of the mike and start boasting "he's a bowling ball of butcher knives." Sounds like a coach who got the guy he wanted. It would also explain why it took so long to bench him, as opposed to the theory that Grigson was forcing Pagano to play Trent. 

 

 

[indyagent17]

6 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

 

 

You are wrongly assuming Pagano didnt have a say in the acquisitions....   there are a few players on the team that are ALL PAGANO.....  TJ Green for one  Andre Johnson, Werner...  CB Smith    it goes on and on but one thing in common... they all suck

Nitpicking wont get this fixed. Bottom Line Chuck is an average coach but he needs to be replaced by a better HC 

[ztboiler]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Besides Sanders, they were all drafted in the top 11 of the draft, where Grigson never picks.

 

Not defending Grigson, he's still not done a good job drafting...

Not specific to you, but this feels like a narrative that needs more development.  For instance, Elway is the current gold standard among GM's, but I'd rather have our last 3 drafts than the Bronchos.  We start to think every team but us is drafting well.  Reality is, if you get 2 good pieces of your future and a couple role players to fill out your roster, you had a good draft.

 

What Elway has accomplished in Free Agency is exceptional - that's another subject - but I guess I'm not buying the general narrative that Grigson isn't drafting well.

 

Drafting is like picking stocks...past performance may not be an indicator of future results.

[Douzer]

Total Drafted = 31
Total by Squad (O=19 | D=12)
Total on Current Roster (O= 9|D=4)

2015 - Indianapolis Colts (O= 3|D=5)
1 29 Phillip Dorsett  WR Miami (Fla.)
3 65 D'Joun Smith  CB Florida Atlantic
3 93 Henry Anderson  DE Stanford
4 109 Clayton Geathers  SAF Central Florida
5 151 David Parry  NT Stanford
6 205 Josh Robinson  RB Mississippi State
6 207 Amarlo Herrera  LB Georgia
7 255 Denzelle Good  T Mars Hill

2014 - Indianapolis Colts (O= 4|D=2)
* 1 Trade – Trent Richardson RB Alabama
2 59 Jack Mewhort  T Ohio State
3 90 Donte Moncrief  WR Mississippi
5 166 Jonathan Newsome  DE Ball State
6 203 Andrew Jackson  LB Western Kentucky
7 232 John Ulrick  T Georgia State  

2013 - Indianapolis Colts (O= 4|D=3)
1 24 Bjoern Werner  OLB Florida State
3 86 Hugh Thornton  OG Illinois
4 121 Khaled Holmes  C USC
5 139 Montori Hughes  DT Tennessee-Martin
6 192 John Boyett  SS Oregon
7 230 Kerwynn Williams  RB Utah State
7 254 Justice Cunningham  TE South Carolina

2012 - Indianapolis Colts (O= 8|D=2)
1 1 Andrew Luck  QB Stanford
2 34 Coby Fleener  TE Stanford
3 64 Dwayne Allen  TE Clemson
3 92 T.Y. Hilton  WR Florida International
5 136 Josh Chapman  DT Alabama
5 170 Vick Ballard  RB Mississippi State
6 206 LaVon Brazill  WR Ohio U.
7 208 Justin Anderson  G Georgia
7 214 Tim Fugger  LB Vanderbilt
7 253 Chandler Harnish  QB Northern Illinois

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Not specific to you, but this feels like a narrative that needs more development.  For instance, Elway is the current gold standard among GM's, but I'd rather have our last 3 drafts than the Bronchos.  We start to think every team but us is drafting well.  Reality is, if you get 2 good pieces of your future and a couple role players to fill out your roster, you had a good draft.

 

What Elway has accomplished in Free Agency is exceptional - that's another subject - but I guess I'm not buying the general narrative that Grigson isn't drafting well.

 

Drafting is like picking stocks...past performance may not be an indicator of future results.

 

We'll see about Denver's drafts vs Indy's, the jury is mostly still out. The Colts only have two players remaining from 2014, though... 

 

But Grigson built the Colts, for the most part: AV, Mathis, McAfee, Reitz and AC are the only players that pre-date Grigson. The rest of the team is on him.

 

Elway built the Broncos. I'm pretty sure no one on that roster pre-dates him. There are a couple players who were drafted prior to 2012 -- DT, Miller -- but Elway influenced those drafts.

 

A GM's job is to build the roster. Obviously, the draft is the most important part of that (which makes Grigson's awful 2013 draft so problematic), but if you had to choose, which roster would you rather have? Outside of QB, the Broncos have the Colts licked at every position group. And, despite spending more in FA, they're in great cap space just like the Colts.

 

I agree that it's easy to look at your own failures and judge your own team more harshly than others; I talk about perspective all the time. And I agree that the Colts' drafts aren't as bad as they're made out to be, outside of 2013. Still, it's as another poster said about a year ago -- Grigson has left a lot of meat on the bone. It was kind of irritating watching the Vikings game, knowing they have two defensive cornerstone players that the Colts could have drafted -- players lots of people on this site wanted. 

 

So, trying to judge objectively, and you knowing that I'm not a Grigson hater, I don't think he's done a good job drafting. 

[ztboiler]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

We'll see about Denver's drafts vs Indy's, the jury is mostly still out. The Colts only have two players remaining from 2014, though... 

 

But Grigson built the Colts, for the most part: AV, Mathis, McAfee, Reitz and AC are the only players that pre-date Grigson. The rest of the team is on him.

 

Elway built the Broncos. I'm pretty sure no one on that roster pre-dates him. There are a couple players who were drafted prior to 2012 -- DT, Miller -- but Elway influenced those drafts.

 

A GM's job is to build the roster. Obviously, the draft is the most important part of that (which makes Grigson's awful 2013 draft so problematic), but if you had to choose, which roster would you rather have? Outside of QB, the Broncos have the Colts licked at every position group. And, despite spending more in FA, they're in great cap space just like the Colts.

 

I agree that it's easy to look at your own failures and judge your own team more harshly than others; I talk about perspective all the time. And I agree that the Colts' drafts aren't as bad as they're made out to be, outside of 2013. Still, it's as another poster said about a year ago -- Grigson has left a lot of meat on the bone. It was kind of irritating watching the Vikings game, knowing they have two defensive cornerstone players that the Colts could have drafted -- players lots of people on this site wanted. 

 

So, trying to judge objectively, and you knowing that I'm not a Grigson hater, I don't think he's done a good job drafting. 

I know you're not a Grigson hater and Elway is the gold standard for a reason...no argument about the end result.

 

Re: 2014 - they have 4 guys from that draft still on their roster and 3 of them are mostly roster filler (IMO) even though Paradis and Schofield start on the OL.  Roby is obviously an important long term quality piece, but you can get what the others give from UDFA's, and I'd argue we have (ie. Harrison, Swoope, Kerr).  Moncrief and Mewhort don't look that bad by comparison at this stage of development.

 

Re: 2013 - Bronchos have Sly Williams and Kavon Webster vs. Vontae Davis to show for draft capital....Williams has played the run well enough, but V. Davis trumps both of those for total impact all day long.  The Bronchos would even agree with that amidst multiple Colt's victories.

 

We all point at the 2013 draft - but if you look around the league, it affected almost every team about the same.  That draft left holes on rosters everywhere.

 

What set us back is that we didn't get 3-5 years of production out of multiple Free Agent signings from 2013 while our drafted players were developing.  Some were bad luck and some were bad scouting, but all left us in a good cap situation.

 

We're in a good place to sign 2-3 impact FA's to go with a rising tide of drafted talent...maybe we can get it right this year.

[RockThatBlue]

Pagano, for basically the same reasons @Superman gave.

[RockThatBlue]

10 hours ago, tfunky14 said:

No I'm not...I just don't give up on someone because of one bad season. Pagano had three 11 win season with a trip to the AFC championship game. People on here who want Grigson and Pagano gone are people who just sit and listen to the media all day. 

 

And lets talk about Luck.  If anybody is to blame it is Luck. Luck might have good stats but the only stat I'm concerned with is the W's...

 

Peyton never had a decent defense around him and he still got W's. Manning found away to win and that's what Luck needs to learn to do.

Luck just is having his second best year of his career. Luck is not the problem. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

If I could only fire one it would be Grigson. Players seem to love playing for Chuck. Chuck can only Coach the players that are given to him. Yes he has Andrew Luck which almost assures anyone of not having a losing season (we will probably finish 8-8) but our Defensive talent for the most part is terrible and our O.Line is young. Didn't Reggie Wayne criticize Grigson as well on the NFL Network but had nothing bad to say about Chuck. Reggie was one of our leaders and a Great player around these guys everyday, so right there tells me a lot. I voted Grigson but I can see most voted Chuck. Truth be told, it wouldn't bother me if we replaced both. It said choose 1 though. After losing to Houston here I am game for anything to improve the team.

[AZColt11]

Ultimately I think it's either gonna be both or neither.  Irsay has said they are "tied" together.  I don't see the scenario this thread is made about happening in either case.

[CoachLite]

13 hours ago, esmort said:

 

If the majority of "students" aren't getting it than it is the fault of the "teacher (or teachers)". Regardless the fault ultimately ends at Pagano since he is either doing the teaching or chose the teachers.

Or Pagano is giving passing grades, or better, to failing players. At the end of the season, Pagano will give out Participant Ribbons to everyone - except the fans he let down.