Ranking the offensive line

[DarkHorse]

It has come to my attention that some believe that the offensive line is not as bad as it seems. I feel this is bologna with the exceptions of Jack Mewhort and AC and Reitz everyone else sucks, and I only like Reitz as a sixth man.  So I please asked for survey do you rate the Colts offensive line

1. Great

2. Very good

3. Decent

4. Poor

5. Terrible

thanks

[ColtsFanMikeC]

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

It has come to my attention that some believe that the offensive line is not as bad as it seems. I feel this is bologna with the exceptions of Jack Mewhort and AC and Reitz everyone else sucks, and I only like Reitz as a sixth man.  So I please asked for survey do you rate the Colts offensive line

1. Great

2. Very good

3. Decent

4. Poor

5. Terrible

thanks

 

If we are healthy, we are decent. If we have 1 injury, we are poor, and if we have >1 we are terrible.

 

I agree, I like Reitz as a 6th man.  Holmes can be decent as a center, but Harrison (at least in our scheme) is poor or worse.  Thornton, if healthy, can be decent (though he is inconsistent).  AC is good/very good, Mewhort is good and hopefully trending towards very good.  Good is unproven, he was somewhere between poor and decent in the action he had last year.

 

It would help to have 1-3 new starters on the OL (C, RG, and possibly RT being the concerning positions to me), and we NEED to improve depth.  I like Reitz as a 6th man because he can go anywhere but C and play pretty well, though I don't think he is more than decent to slightly above decent as a full-time starter. 

 

As of now, we have poor/terrible depth at C and unproven depth at tackle/guard positions.

[Bravo]

3-4... Depending on the game. 

 

It's bad. Costanzo and Mewhort are a decent combo but other than that it's poor play. Reitz is serviceable and average.

 

It needs upgraded badly. Frank Gore was very unhappy with the way they and the offense played last year and he made it known. Thats saying something.

[B~Town]

Average . Line is not as bad as some make it out to be but def not a good group would rank them in the middle of the pack .

[pgt_rob]

I would say we are poor, honestly. We have 2 good linemen and the others are all hit or miss depending on the day. We are in very bad shape, hopefully better after the draft.

[Smonroe]

Obviously the O line play has to improve.  I still don't know if it was lack of talent, poor coaching, or play calling.  Probably a combination of both.

 

But just to give a little perspective - going in to 2015 most people had the Cowboy's O line ranked #1.  Apparently that didn't keep Romo off the turf.  The Raven and Browns were also in the top 5.  How did their QBs do?

 

Point being, it's just not the O line that needs to improve.  Play calling and Luck making better decisions are equally important IMHO.

[CR91]

Our line has it moments when it's healthy. That's really the problem. Not exactly the skill we have at the position, but the fact that we can't stay healthy. If you look at the history of our lines since 2012, I bet we have had Atleast 50 different line formations. You can never build a line with so many different bodies

[Cynjin]

30 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Obviously the O line play has to improve.  I still don't know if it was lack of talent, poor coaching, or play calling.  Probably a combination of both.

 

But just to give a little perspective - going in to 2015 most people had the Cowboy's O line ranked #1.  Apparently that didn't keep Romo off the turf.  The Raven and Browns were also in the top 5.  How did their QBs do?

 

Point being, it's just not the O line that needs to improve.  Play calling and Luck making better decisions are equally important IMHO.

 

I agree, it seems like most feel that the talent is just not there.  While I agree there needs to be an upgrade in talent, the other factors you mentioned are also very important.  It seems like the Colts are counting on the change in coaching to have the largest impact on Oline play.

[superrep1967]

10 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

It has come to my attention that some believe that the offensive line is not as bad as it seems. I feel this is bologna with the exceptions of Jack Mewhort and AC and Reitz everyone else sucks, and I only like Reitz as a sixth man.  So I please asked for survey do you rate the Colts offensive line

1. Great

2. Very good

3. Decent

4. Poor

5. Terrible

thanks

Poor but Luck needs to get rid of the ball quicker

[jameszeigler834]

9 hours ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

If we are healthy, we are decent. If we have 1 injury, we are poor, and if we have >1 we are terrible.

 

I agree, I like Reitz as a 6th man.  Holmes can be decent as a center, but Harrison (at least in our scheme) is poor or worse.  Thornton, if healthy, can be decent (though he is inconsistent).  AC is good/very good, Mewhort is good and hopefully trending towards very good.  Good is unproven, he was somewhere between poor and decent in the action he had last year.

 

It would help to have 1-3 new starters on the OL (C, RG, and possibly RT being the concerning positions to me), and we NEED to improve depth.  I like Reitz as a 6th man because he can go anywhere but C and play pretty well, though I don't think he is more than decent to slightly above decent as a full-time starter. 

 

As of now, we have poor/terrible depth at C and unproven depth at tackle/guard positions.

If we are playing a really good team with exception to a healthy AC and Mewhort I give the line a 5 for terrible if they play say Cleveland I give them a 3-4.

[gacker65]

I would rate the O-line at 3- decent.  Our biggest problem besides health was at Center.  AC had average year as well as missing a couple games.  The disaster of moving Jack to RT.  WRs not getting open......

 

IMO, many factors contributed to the average play of the )-line

[Chucklez]

It's not the dumpster fire people think it is, but it certainly needs improvement...

I'd probably rate it at juuuuust below decent. Put it this way, there are certainly 18 or so other teams offensive lines I would take over ours...

[DarkHorse]

I agree play-calling has to improve. We've been playing musical chairs with the center and Right Guard. Denzelle good is unproven is he going to play Right Guard is it going to play right tackle but I would put him at right Guard there's a lot of variables but in the end it all comes down to Talent

[aaron11]

24 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

I agree play-calling has to improve. We've been playing musical chairs with the center and Right Guard. Denzelle good is unproven is he going to play Right Guard is it going to play right tackle but I would put him at right Guard there's a lot of variables but in the end it all comes down to Talent

good is a tackle, not a guard.  lots of oline guys are versatile enough to play more than one position well, but good does not have the build or range for that

[UKColt13]

Castonzo - 4/5

Mewhort - 4 (trending up)

Holmes - 2/3 (Needs replacing)

Thornton - 2-4 (Has had good games but wildly inconsistent, can be upgraded)

Good - 3 (Arrow pointing straight right now, with coaching and an offseason to improve I'm hoping the arrow points up.)

Reitz - 3 (Good swingman depth, jack-of-all-trade, but I'm afraid also a master of none.)

 

At our best we are 3/3.5, at our worst (when injuries take hold) we are a 1.5/2.

[DougDew]

Center play has been terrible.  RG play poor.  Everything else has been very good. 

[ColtsFanMikeC]

4 hours ago, Smonroe said:

Obviously the O line play has to improve.  I still don't know if it was lack of talent, poor coaching, or play calling.  Probably a combination of both.

 

But just to give a little perspective - going in to 2015 most people had the Cowboy's O line ranked #1.  Apparently that didn't keep Romo off the turf.  The Raven and Browns were also in the top 5.  How did their QBs do?

 

Point being, it's just not the O line that needs to improve.  Play calling and Luck making better decisions are equally important IMHO.

 

Cowboys had a very good run blocking line -- which I think is part of the reason DeMarco Murray had such a monster year 2 years ago and such a poor year (a few nagging injuries didn't help, either) last year.

 

This happens often in the NFL -- a RB runs behind a dominant run-blocking line and then goes and signs a huge contract and doesn't produce (it happens at a lot of other positions, as well -- e.g., multiple LBs that played here in the Dungy era wanted huge contracts b/c they put up monster numbers, and Polian let them walk knowing their numbers were a part of the scheme).

 

  Romo is injury prone -- so I don't know that him being hurt is a product of constant abuse or just that he gets hurt easily  (especially his left shoulder/clavicle and back).  The Browns QBs at the end of last season were Austin Davis, Pat Devlin, and Johnny Manziel  (I know McKnown got hurt earlier in the year) -- anyway, they have very little weapons on O with Gordon being suspended, and terrible QBs to begin with.  Before he got hurt, Flacco was on pace for 4,500 yards >22 TDs and had a >64% completion rate -- he was having a good year stats wise, but they didn't have a very good team compared to previous Ravens' teams (Steve Smith was playing hurt weeks 4-7 and tore his knee week 8, their D wasn't the same D it was for a long time, etc.. and Flacco got hurt b/c he got rolled up on by his own player, not sacked or hit).  No offense, but don't think any of these teams' QB is a good comparison to the Colts or Luck.

 

That said, Luck making better decisions is important as well as play calling.  However, there is no doubt that this line needs some work.

[Gavin]

Using Pro Football Focuses 0-100 scale (Last year only)

 

Castonzo-70-84 range (Starter)...Guessing here cause I don't have access to there actual grades but based on film maybe 73.5 final grade roughly

Mewhort-70-84 range (Starter) roughly 79.6

Holmes-0-59 range (replaceable) 55.4

Thornton-60-69 range (backup) 68.5

Reitz-70-84 range (Starter) 77.5

 

I'm sure Dustin will correct as needed. I'm considering heavily subscribing into PFF player grades. 19 teams do at least now

[Bluefire4]

I cannot judge the line right now. I have to see who we draft, what improvements Good has made, and how the new coaching and systematic changes make the line better.

 

I'm sure we get a starting center and at least competition for Thornton in the draft. Hopefully we are very impressed with the improvement.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Poor

[DarkHorse]

6 hours ago, aaron11 said:

good is a tackle, not a guard.  lots of oline guys are versatile enough to play more than one position well, but good does not have the build or range for that

I know Denzel good is a tackle but he's 6 foot 5 inches 340 pounds is pretty big for a tackle plus the coaching staff was talking about moving him to right guard the same thing they did withMewhort

[aaron11]

33 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

I know Denzel good is a tackle but he's 6 foot 5 inches 340 pounds is pretty big for a tackle plus the coaching staff was talking about moving him to right guard the same thing they did withMewhort

good is tall for a guard, they are shorter than tackles

 

mewhort wasnt much of a tackle either, he was pretty bad.  

 

reitz and thornton are the swing lineman 

[rock8591]

My grades.

[MTC]

On 4/19/2016 at 0:07 AM, DarkHorse said:

It has come to my attention that some believe that the offensive line is not as bad as it seems. I feel this is bologna with the exceptions of Jack Mewhort and AC and Reitz everyone else sucks, and I only like Reitz as a sixth man.  So I please asked for survey do you rate the Colts offensive line

1. Great

2. Very good

3. Decent

4. Poor

5. Terrible

thanks

 

Castonzo - Very good

Mewhort - Very good

Holmes - Poor

Thornton - Poor

Reitz - Very good

Good - Decent 

[throwing BBZ]

21 hours ago, DougDew said:

Center play has been terrible.  RG play poor.  Everything else has been very good. 

 

 Wow!

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, MTC said:

 

Castonzo - Very good

Mewhort - Very good

Holmes - Poor

Thornton - Poor

Reitz - Very good

Good - Decent 

 

 Thanks for the laugh.

[aaron11]

going by last year alone

 

AC-decent

mewhort-decent

holmes-bad

thornton-  inconsistent

reitz- ok

[Archer]

46 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Wow!

 

Wow to your Wow!  (D'dang D'dang diggy diggy.)  I don't see anything out of like in MTC's ratings.  Reitz was quietly a borderline Top-10 RT last year, though many refuse to acknowledge it. 

 

My survey answer: 3 (Decent), but with very little depth right now.

[throwing BBZ]

From C to RT we were poor or worse last season.
Castonzo had a good contract year, then reverted back to his Norm being out of the top half in pass pro, and as the NFL Live guys said a couple days ago about [our line] him AND Mewhort as having No Punch in the running game. Yip, that is what i see over and over.
 In pass protection Mewhort can latch on and anchor at a Very Good to Elite level already!
 The guy is Tough Tough!!
 But he just can`t knock guys off the line when you need 1-2 yards, and watching him pull has been an effort in futility and on occasion Comedy [SAD]!  lol 

 Overall, you can`t be this ineffective in so many areas as a Unit and be Decent against playoff caliber teams.
 Grade Poor! As always, JMO of course! Go Colts!
  I sure hope Good has shown up slimmer and stronger. If not... Ugh!
  
 
 

[aaron11]

17 minutes ago, Archer said:

 

Wow to your Wow!  (D'dang D'dang diggy diggy.)  I don't see anything out of like in MTC's ratings.  Reitz was quietly a borderline Top-10 RT last year, though many refuse to acknowledge it. 

 

 

if reitz was good then where the heck was the running game?

 

we cant say that the RT and running back both had good years but we only got 3.4 ypc

 

thornton was our best run blocker

[Gavin]

Ill follow up my post with this average of my combined O Line ratings

 

354.5 is the total score combined if you added up my grades (again based on PFF's 0-100 scale. Divide that by the five starting O Linemen and you get 70.9.....Which if you go by PFF's explanation of rankings they rank that as right at the border between Starter and back up....69)......So in my opinion based on what the OP is asking in his survey and the probability that Castonzo has a bounce back year from his mostly inconsistent and sometimes outright bad play and a potential replacement at Center I see no reason why the O Line cant be Good...As for last year I'd put the O Line as Decent

[Gavin]

13 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

From C to RT we were poor or worse last season.
Castonzo had a good contract year, then reverted back to his Norm being out of the top half in pass pro, and as the NFL Live guys said a couple days ago about [our line] him AND Mewhort as having No Punch in the running game. Yip, that is what i see over and over.
 In pass protection Mewhort can latch on and anchor at a Very Good to Elite level already!
 The guy is Tough Tough!!
 But he just can`t knock guys off the line when you need 1-2 yards, and watching him pull has been an effort in futility and on occasion Comedy [SAD]!  lol 

 Overall, you can`t be this ineffective in so many areas as a Unit and be Decent against playoff caliber teams.
 Grade Poor! As always, JMO of course! Go Colts!
  I sure hope Good has shown up slimmer and stronger. If not... Ugh!
  
 
 

Overall I agree with what you say here. What are your thoughts on Hugh Thornton

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

From C to RT we were poor or worse last season.
Castonzo had a good contract year, then reverted back to his Norm being out of the top half in pass pro, and as the NFL Live guys said a couple days ago about [our line] him AND Mewhort as having No Punch in the running game. Yip, that is what i see over and over.
 In pass protection Mewhort can latch on and anchor at a Very Good to Elite level already!
 The guy is Tough Tough!!
 But he just can`t knock guys off the line when you need 1-2 yards, and watching him pull has been an effort in futility and on occasion Comedy [SAD]!  lol 

 Overall, you can`t be this ineffective in so many areas as a Unit and be Decent against playoff caliber teams.
 Grade Poor! As always, JMO of course! Go Colts!
  I sure hope Good has shown up slimmer and stronger. If not... Ugh!
  
 
 

I say Poor as well going by the scale he presented. Poor and Terrible are the same thing IMO though. We are definitely not decent. On a scale of Great/Very Good/Good/Above Average/Average/Below Average/Poor I would rank it Below Average on that scale. Our Offensive Line isn't one of the Top 16 in the league nor is it the worst IMO so it is Below Average which means we need major improvement.

[Archer]

2 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

if reitz was good then where the heck was the running game?

 

we cant say that the RT and running back both had good years but we only got 3.4 ypc

 

thornton was our best run blocker

 

Y'know, Gore moved the chains well in the first halves of games, and then we always seemed to abandon the run in the 2nd half.  Honestly, I think that it's our lack of long runs that results in the low YPC.  Your average NFL starter rips off the occasional 20-40 yard runs that serves to bolster his average a yard or so.  Gore takes those runs about 9 yards.  Plus, we seemed to get stuck a lot in the second half of games due to unimaginative play calling.  There were a lot of games that I looked at the stats and saw a 3.5 yard average and thought, "Wait, Gore was running really well!"  At any rate, I do think that we need to improve run blocking, but I don't think we were terrible.

[MTC]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Thanks for the laugh.

 

What's funny about it? 

 

 

[Track Guy]

On April 19, 2016 at 0:07 AM, DarkHorse said:

It has come to my attention that some believe that the offensive line is not as bad as it seems. I feel this is bologna with the exceptions of Jack Mewhort and AC and Reitz everyone else sucks, and I only like Reitz as a sixth man.  So I please asked for survey do you rate the Colts offensive line

1. Great

2. Very good

3. Decent

4. Poor

5. Terrible

thanks

 

4. Poor

 

29th in rushing total and 31st in rushing average last season. The number of QB hits allowed has been far too high for several years now. The people who think we're basically all set at O-line are absolutely kidding themselves. 

[masterlock]

Why not include an actual poll in your post? Would have been nice to see the tabulated results. Anyway, I'd put them at poor.

[Archer]

4 hours ago, Track Guy said:

 

4. Poor

 

29th in rushing total and 31st in rushing average last season. The number of QB hits allowed has been far too high for several years now. The people who think we're basically all set at O-line are absolutely kidding themselves. 

 

Honestly, I believe that the QB hits stats are the main reason many believe our OL is terrible, but there is a huge asterisk there.  Luck takes a lot of hits because he's willing to take 'em if it enables another split second for his receivers to get open.  Plus, those stats are usually cited as # of hits in the last three or the last four years - well, this is a much better line than the ones with Satele, McGlynn, Louis, Cherilus, et al. in it.  I understand why people are concerned with QB hits, but those are not stand-alone stats that speak for themselves.  I think it's noteworthy that PFF graded every OL on every play and ranked our 2015 OL as 15th out of 32 lines in the NFL.

[Track Guy]

3 hours ago, Archer said:

 

Honestly, I believe that the QB hits stats are the main reason many believe our OL is terrible, but there is a huge asterisk there.  Luck takes a lot of hits because he's willing to take 'em if it enables another split second for his receivers to get open.  Plus, those stats are usually cited as # of hits in the last three or the last four years - well, this is a much better line than the ones with Satele, McGlynn, Louis, Cherilus, et al. in it.  I understand why people are concerned with QB hits, but those are not stand-alone stats that speak for themselves.  I think it's noteworthy that PFF graded every OL on every play and ranked our 2015 OL as 15th out of 32 lines in the NFL.

 

I agree that improving the O-line is less about making Luck have to take fewer hits than many just assume. Sure, that's a little bit of a factor. But to me, our main issues here is that having one of the worst rushing attacks in the league is putting to waste the talents of our skill position guys (when defenses know your rushing attack is bad, your passing efficiency tends to go down) and putting too much pressure on our defense (poor running game hurts with field position and TOP). The PFF grade is interesting - I think 15th is probably a bit generous IMO given that we were 29th in rushing yards and 31st in rushing average. But I do think a few of the pieces are in place (namely the left side of our line is pretty good) so I do agree that we're not quite as bad as "terrible". I see somewhere in between "terrible" and "decent".

[DarkHorse]

4 hours ago, masterlock said:

Why not include an actual poll in your post? Would have been nice to see the tabulated results. Anyway, I'd put them at poor.

Sorry didn't know how