This Team has a Coaching Problem/Fire Coaches (Merge)

[Gavin]

Something in the organization smells, and I don't like it. Superman is right to an extent. You don't build a championship caliber team in 3 years. But what Rodney Harrison said about the Colts yesterday goes along with that. The Colts have a lot of flaws, and can't compete against the big dogs. The roster before the Luck era was basically garbage, but Manning was like a golden lid over the roster for years.

 

However, there is something going on with coaching that doesn't sit right. I'm not the first to say that they don't seem to play the best players, and the trend continues. They seem so reluctant to want to believe Trent is a major bust. 3rd and 14 and you give it to Trent on a draw? Terrible play-call regardless of the RB, but worse considering it was 3.0 Richardson.

 

And now we've seen another game where the coaching staff seems un-prepared and out of it's element. At OC, there is no excuse for only being able to put up 7 garbage time points against a Cowboys D that isn't anything special. Some of it was on Luck, who played awful and some were on receiver drops,etc... but the offensive game plan seemed terrible. Run game was a joke. 10 total carries by all 3 backs.

 

At DC, I didn't expect much pass rush given Dallas has the best O-line in the league, but they were a sieve out there. Sure, Murray only had 58 yards and Randle 37, they kept the chains moving. You don't have to rush for 100 yards to be effective. The secondary was probably the worst part though. 90 yards and a TD to Witten (we still can't cover TE's), 53 yards and a TD to Bryant,52 yards and 2 TDs to Williams.All while Romo only missed 2 passes.

 

What I don't get is why fans like Superman get upset when other fans get worried when we play elite teams. Everyone knows personnel wise, were out matched. There are a lot of people who saw this coming, just like we saw the thrashing by NE coming. It's not just lack of talent though. We're outmatched on the coaching level too. This team can't throw together a game plan in any of the 3 phases to topple one of the elite teams. What Shwartz did to Green Bay was an example of good coaching (from the DC position). Andy Reid against the Patriots, good coaching. Gruden in Washington who beat both Dallas and the Eagles once, good coaching. That's not us. When we go against elite teams, neither Pep, Manusky, or Pagano seem to have a game plan. Against the best we struggle on offense and defense. ST is almost the best part of the team.

"I'm not the first to say that they don't seem to play the best players"

 

The margin between "the best players" and whats out there now (Im assuming your talking O Line for the most part) is very little

 

"They seem so reluctant to want to believe Trent is a major bust."

 

How do you figure? Richardson has only ran the ball 45 times since week 11........That's an average of 4.09 a game since week 11....As a matter of fact he only has 3 games all season long where he has had 15 or more carries. Im by no means a big fan of Richardsons, I think he has a lot to improve on to be a good Back in the league but the dude has been primarily relegated to pass blocking duty

 

 

"What I don't get is why fans like Superman get upset when other fans get worried when we play elite teams. Everyone knows personnel wise, were out matched. There are a lot of people who saw this coming, just like we saw the thrashing by NE coming. It's not just lack of talent though. We're outmatched on the coaching level too. This team can't throw together a game plan in any of the 3 phases to topple one of the elite teams. What Shwartz did to Green Bay was an example of good coaching (from the DC position). Andy Reid against the Patriots, good coaching. Gruden in Washington who beat both Dallas and the Eagles once, good coaching. That's not us. When we go against elite teams, neither Pep, Manusky, or Pagano seem to have a game plan. Against the best we struggle on offense and defense. ST is almost the best part of the team."

 

 

While I think the game plans could have been better in some of those games I also think if your team fails to execute fundamentals and does not execute the game plan layed out by the coaching staff then things ultimately look a lot worse then what they are (failing to run block for example, overthrowing a wr for example and it leading to a pick, a receiver dropping a ball when he was open...Dwayne Allen, Reggie Wayne).....Do I think game plans could have been better in some games? No doubt about it but when you fail to execute the plan laid out it makes things look worse then what they are

[TKnight24]

FIRE Pagano

And take Pep with him

Grab the HC or OC from Oregon. Luck would be amazing in a Oregon style offense. And any of those fast paced offense's

[sfergson727]

I like Chuck as a person.  Some people are extremely likable, but that doesn't make them a good coach.  Yes, I want someone else, and not just Chuck but the entire coaching staff.  We will never be anything more than a one and done team with our current staff in place.

[#12]

Chuck is a good guy.  Everyone likes Chuck, but I'm afraid he's the Jim Mora of the Luck era. 

 

Not sold on Grigson either.  In fact, he might be worse. 

[TKnight24]

Chuck is a good guy. Everyone likes Chuck, but I'm afraid he's the Jim Mora of the Luck era.

Not sold on Grigson either. In fact, he might be worse.

Freeman

Moncrief

Kerr

Boom

Tipton

Hilton

Mewhort

Vontae

Etc Etc

Don't ever try to blame Grigson. He's put together a SOLID team that any GOOD coach like Jim Harbaugh or someone would have rolling

[Dustin]

Freeman

Moncrief

Kerr

Boom

Tipton

Hilton

Mewhort

Vontae

Etc Etc

Don't ever try to blame Grigson. He's put together a SOLID team that any GOOD coach like Jim Harbaugh or someone would have rolling

Tipton?

[TKnight24]

Tipton?

Sorry, that was my "hopeful" player

He looks promising though. Just gotta give him the chance to show. Can't be any worse than Trent so that's a start

[Smash Mouth]

yep sometimes a game just spirals out of control on you. Happens to all teams, even good teams. Frankly most teams have a game or two like this a year. Look at the Pats in KC this year. We are spoiled from the Manning era where this happened very rarely, the Jags game you mentioned being one of the examples of a time it did, that we just aren't used to it. I know it's discoursging and there are a lot of things the Colts need to do better but they are still 10-5 and division champs. We will see what happens in the playoffs, maybe they will go on a run which no one expects but no one expected one after the Jags game in 06 either. If they don't then we will have the whole off-season to speculate on what can be done to improve the team.

The issue is that too many games have spiraled out of control for this team.  Someone has to be held accountable for such poor performances.

[mattceinicram]

Who would we bring in?

[Watcher]

I would like to point out one thing.... no matter your position in today's workplace, if you don't get the job done you're going to be replaced by someone who can achieve favorable results. Excuses are like.....

[HeSoColt]

One thing that frustrates me with Chuck..

 

Post game conferences... he ALWAYS says we were outplayed in all three phases. Let's man up and say all four phases. Out-coached needs to be a phase. He is not a bad coach, but lets admit that we have been clearly out-coached quite a bit.

[MR. Blueblood]

I have little faith that this coaching staff will take us to a SB and a win.

 

Although, I have little faith that any coaching staff could take this team to a SB and a win with the O-line that we have.

 

Can't run the ball, can't keep your QB standing, can't stay healthy, etc etc etc

[#12]

Freeman

Moncrief

Kerr

Boom

Tipton

Hilton

Mewhort

Vontae

Etc Etc

Don't ever try to blame Grigson. He's put together a SOLID team that any GOOD coach like Jim Harbaugh or someone would have rolling

 

 

Defense is atrocious.  O-line is terrible.  The Richardson trade was an abomination.  That's 90% of your team.  You can pick out a few players here and there for any GM, and mainly they're skilled players receiving the ball from your once in a generation QB.  Who knows how good they would be receiving the ball from Brian Hoyer.   

[IndyD4U]

I'm open to him being a DC for this team, but I don't feel he is a HC. Unfortunately, I don't know how you fire a guy from a HC gig and then want him to be your DC.

[IndyD4U]

Who would we being in?

 

Harbaugh!

 and Sexy Rexy

[atapcl]

Three years and 3 playoff appearances when our team started practically from scratch is not a bad coaching job.

[pgt_rob]

Three years and 3 playoff appearances when our team started practically from scratch is not a bad coaching job.

 

If you take away 6 guarantee wins in our crappy division, we have nothing to show for really.

[Smonroe]

Three years and 3 playoff appearances when our team started practically from scratch is not a bad coaching job.

 

The problem is that the team is not progressing. 

 

I'm not for firing Chuck.  I think the players love him.  But the entire coaching staff under him needs to be evaluated.

 

The O line coach is either atrocious or they don't understand the players strenghts and weaknesses. 

 

If anyone thinks the D coordinator is doing even a passable job, I'd like to know.  I think the talent has improved every year (still not great) but the defense gets worse each season.

[HorseFly]

I think position coaches are of most concern.  Offense and defensive lines (training) need overhaul.  I'd expect them to look at Emanual and Gilbert replacements.   The coordinators and their game prep needs serious overhaul too, but I don't think they necessarily need replacing though.  I'm OK with Pagano, but if he doesn't see a need for upgrades, then that might be a different story.

[GoColts8818]

The issue is that too many games have spiraled out of control for this team.  Someone has to be held accountable for such poor performances.

how do you know they aren't? There are ways to hold them accountable without firing them. Let the season play out and see what they do. I will say I think Pagano gets at least one more year as I doubt they will fire a coach after three straight playoff trips after a 2-14 season.

[pacolts56]

how do you know they aren't? There are ways to hold them accountable without firing them. Let the season play out and see what they do. I will say I think Pagano gets at least one more year as I doubt they will fire a coach after three straight playoff trips after a 2-14 season.

This....exactly.

 

If the Colts plateau and have a one and done trip to the playoffs this year and next...or miss the playoffs entirely, then 4 full seasons will have given them time for player upgrades/development and tweaks to the coaching staff necessary to reach true Super Bowl contender status....and talk of a full staff change is reasonable.

 

But now is simply too soon.

[GoColts8818]

If you take away 6 guarantee wins in our crappy division, we have nothing to show for really.

4 guarantee wins, the Texans would have been a playoff team had the Colts not beat them twice this year, also the Colts have only played the Titans once this year so far. So they only have three "guarantee" wins so far this season.

They also have wins over both Super a Bowl teams last year, the 49ers in San Fran when it wasn't really close, the Chiefs twice last year, including in the playoffs, and then two playoff level teams this year in the Ravens and Bengals. They also beat the Vikings, a playoff team, in Pagano's first year before he got sick. Despite what some think the Colts have best good teams under Pagano. Also this list does not include the Texans or Packers from Pagano's first year because while Pagano might not have been here for those games the bulk of this staff was.

Frankly after 2-14 people mostly expected a three to four year rebuilding process just becoming a playoff level team this year. This team over achieved early in that process. You don't do that without good coaching. The Colts are about where there talent level is, a playoff team who can win their division and beat other wildcard level teams. They haven't taken the step to beat the big boys regularly yet. It might take a while to get there. For Manning it took six years to do that. I agree that them not being competitive against the best teams is concerning but I also don't think that's only coaching. I think there is still a lack of talent on this team at key positions.

[chad72]

Sorry, that was my "hopeful" player

He looks promising though. Just gotta give him the chance to show. Can't be any worse than Trent so that's a start

 

I think we should roll with Tipton and Herron for our first 2 downs while Trent is our 3rd down back. That change might give our entire team some kind of spark, I feel.

[jbaron04]

Let me ask you which is the best team we have beat all year? Okay which elite team have we been competitive against? Another one and done season. Book it.

Get rid of Pagano, this team is winning not because, but in spite of coaching staff. Would love someone like Harbaugh but that isn't happening. I hope local media can ask tough questions, we have been unprepared too many games this season.

Also what is the logic of 3 straight runs(run on 3rd and long) and asking your punter to throw? I know it was dropped, but just looking at logic behind that

Edit: also for those saying team had nothing to play for, so that's why they an egg. That's still on coaching....Also why play starters if there's no effort/heart?

This team didn't have much talent in 2012, but Arians knew how to get the team to play hard.

Why Jim just curious?

[pgt_rob]

4 guarantee wins, the Texans would have been a playoff team had the Colts not beat them twice this year, also the Colts have only played the Titans once this year so far. So they only have three "guarantee" wins so far this season.

They also have wins over both Super a Bowl teams last year, the 49ers in San Fran when it wasn't really close, the Chiefs twice last year, including in the playoffs, and then two playoff level teams this year in the Ravens and Bengals. They also beat the Vikings, a playoff team, in Pagano's first year before he got sick. Despite what some think the Colts have best good teams under Pagano. Also this list does not include the Texans or Packers from Pagano's first year because while Pagano might not have been here for those games the bulk of this staff was.

Frankly after 2-14 people mostly expected a three to four year rebuilding process just becoming a playoff level team this year. This team over achieved early in that process. You don't do that without good coaching. The Colts are about where there talent level is, a playoff team who can win their division and beat other wildcard level teams. They haven't taken the step to beat the big boys regularly yet. It might take a while to get there. For Manning it took six years to do that. I agree that them not being competitive against the best teams is concerning but I also don't think that's only coaching. I think there is still a lack of talent on this team at key positions.

 

The 4 guaranteed wins is debatable. But it's really more like 5 guarantee wins since Houston has never beat Indy in Indianapolis. Indy losing against Tennessee next week is possible, but highly unlikely. We beat them by 3 TDs earlier this year. I can expect an all out murdering of them next week with how we've played this weekend. If not, then so be it.

 

We have wins over Superbowl teams, LAST YEAR. We played Denver our first game and lost, sure it was an away game so it must be harder, right? We come back home and lose to the Eagles. A team that we should not have lost to, especially at home.

 

I think last year was great for us. We beat some great teams, away and home. This year has been lack luster. So my opinion is that we have regressed.

[GoColts8818]

The 4 guaranteed wins is debatable. But it's really more like 5 guarantee wins since Houston has never beat Indy in Indianapolis. Indy losing against Tennessee next week is possible, but highly unlikely. We beat them by 3 TDs earlier this year. I can expect an all out murdering of them next week with how we've played this weekend. If not, then so be it.

 

We have wins over Superbowl teams, LAST YEAR. We played Denver our first game and lost, sure it was an away game so it must be harder, right? We come back home and lose to the Eagles. A team that we should not have lost to, especially at home.

 

I think last year was great for us. We beat some great teams, away and home. This year has been lack luster. So my opinion is that we have regressed.

i know but you were responding to someone who pointed out three straight playoff trips and you said we had nothing to show for it. Over three years we do have a lot to show for it.

Again, progress isn't always a straight line up. It's a process and sometimes you plateau a little bit.

[pgt_rob]

i know but you were responding to someone who pointed out three straight playoff trips and you said we had nothing to show for it. Over three years we do have a lot to show for it.

 

If we were in a different division and did not play the Titans, Jaguars, and Texans twice, we would not even be in the playoffs most likely. Those 5-6 guaranteed wins is what puts us in the playoffs. Andrew Luck and the Colts can beat those teams without any coaches on the sidelines at all. So those wins should not make Pagano and crew look as if they are really good. We should be grading them on how we played against Denver, Eagles, Patriots, Cowboys, etc.

[Superman]

Something in the organization smells, and I don't like it. Superman is right to an extent. You don't build a championship caliber team in 3 years. But what Rodney Harrison said about the Colts yesterday goes along with that. The Colts have a lot of flaws, and can't compete against the big dogs. The roster before the Luck era was basically garbage, but Manning was like a golden lid over the roster for years.

 

However, there is something going on with coaching that doesn't sit right. I'm not the first to say that they don't seem to play the best players, and the trend continues. They seem so reluctant to want to believe Trent is a major bust. 3rd and 14 and you give it to Trent on a draw? Terrible play-call regardless of the RB, but worse considering it was 3.0 Richardson.

 

And now we've seen another game where the coaching staff seems un-prepared and out of it's element. At OC, there is no excuse for only being able to put up 7 garbage time points against a Cowboys D that isn't anything special. Some of it was on Luck, who played awful and some were on receiver drops,etc... but the offensive game plan seemed terrible. Run game was a joke. 10 total carries by all 3 backs.

 

At DC, I didn't expect much pass rush given Dallas has the best O-line in the league, but they were a sieve out there. Sure, Murray only had 58 yards and Randle 37, they kept the chains moving. You don't have to rush for 100 yards to be effective. The secondary was probably the worst part though. 90 yards and a TD to Witten (we still can't cover TE's), 53 yards and a TD to Bryant,52 yards and 2 TDs to Williams.All while Romo only missed 2 passes.

 

What I don't get is why fans like Superman get upset when other fans get worried when we play elite teams. Everyone knows personnel wise, were out matched. There are a lot of people who saw this coming, just like we saw the thrashing by NE coming. It's not just lack of talent though. We're outmatched on the coaching level too. This team can't throw together a game plan in any of the 3 phases to topple one of the elite teams. What Shwartz did to Green Bay was an example of good coaching (from the DC position). Andy Reid against the Patriots, good coaching. Gruden in Washington who beat both Dallas and the Eagles once, good coaching. That's not us. When we go against elite teams, neither Pep, Manusky, or Pagano seem to have a game plan. Against the best we struggle on offense and defense. ST is almost the best part of the team.

 

Only two things upset me: 1) The Colts getting their butts kicked, and 2) so-called fans telling other fans not to support their team.

 

It doesn't upset me when other fans get worried about playing elite teams. I think we're a step below those teams, so I get a little worried, too. I hope they can win, but I know that the odds are long. My perspective, however, is that this team is a step below those teams, by virtue of the fact that we're coming out of a major overhaul, and they aren't. The Cowboys have been trying to get over the hump for years, and finally have a pretty strong team. Good for them. We still have some work to do. I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think that's reason to fire everyone. Not three years in.

 

Small picture, I don't understand what's so strange about a draw on 3rd and long. Every team does it. They weren't trying to pick up the first down. This isn't anything new. 

[Carl Dzienkiewicz]

The Colts stink.Luck will throw for 400 this week vs Titans --------WHOOPEE

[thestuman]

I'm not sure that the team doesn't have a starting QB problem.

I could not agree more.  Luck is average AT BEST.  Not sure if he is better than Cutler.  Media has made this guy into the second coming.  Nice young man, book smart, tough as nails, but I question his football IQ and mechanics.  O-line is clearly not helping his growth.  With that said, I expect more people to get off his band wagon as they come to learn what we already know.

[Jason_]

Few thoughts.

*removed rest of post simply to save space*

 

1. Regarding discipline and the Freeman example you gave...I personally don't think that what Freeman did reflects the discipline or potential lack thereof.  If it was something that multiple players were doing every week or, worse, the same players doing it repeatedly then I would definitely agree that it's a coaching issue.  However, when a guy like Freeman, who hasn't done anything like this since he's been in the league that I can recall, does this once out of the blue like he did, I put that on him. 

 

What I don't understand is how the team goes from being the least penalized team with the fewest turnovers last year to what they've become this year.  Many of the turnovers are at least somewhat understandable due to the poor OL play, though the RBs need to be able to hold onto the ball regardless of what kind of blocking they're getting.  However, the increase in penalties overall is concerning.

 

2. I disagree with this point.  The offense was far more efficient and just as explosive when they were running the ball more.  Once they started spreading things out and airing it out is when the offensive production became more sporadic.  Early in the season the Colts were leading the league in TOP by a substantial margin and that's when the team as a whole was playing it's best.  I think they need to go with LESS, not more, spread/shotgun looks and go back to running the ball more...imo at least 20-25 times per game.

 

 

I agree with most everything else. 

[thestuman]

Coaching is definitely a problem.  I don't know how many coaches the team employees but I have a problem with the big three: head coach, offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator.  In addition, the GM is in over his head (see Trent, Mewhort and Werner).  Mr.Irsay needs to take immediate action and clean house now so we can have a competitive product for 2016 season.

 

[pgt_rob]

I could not agree more.  Luck is average AT BEST.  Not sure if he is better than Cutler.  Media has made this guy into the second coming.  Nice young man, book smart, tough as nails, but I question his football IQ and mechanics.  O-line is clearly not helping his growth.  With that said, I expect more people to get off his band wagon as they come to learn what we already know.

 

 

I would not go THAT far. Not sure if he is better than Jay Cutler? Are you saying that because Luck has thrown many INTs this year? The bears have a damn running game. The Colts do not, what do you expect when Luck throws the ball 30+ times a game or 40+ times a game against good teams. There's going to be an INT in there somewhere. With no running game, it hurts Luck in the long run.

[pgt_rob]

 In addition, the GM is in over his head (see Trent, Mewhort and Werner).

 

Mewhort has played great this year. He's a rookie. I would not say Grigs is over his head on that pick.

 

Trent and Werner, maybe.

[PeterBowman]

Mewhort has played great this year. He's a rookie. I would not say Grigs is over his head on that pick.

 

Trent and Werner, maybe.

Werner's not the pass rusher they've wanted so far but he's been a very solid player....Newsome could be the pass rusher of the future tho.

[Jason_]

I like Chuck as a person.  Some people are extremely likable, but that doesn't make them a good coach.  Yes, I want someone else, and not just Chuck but the entire coaching staff.  We will never be anything more than a one and done team with our current staff in place.

 

Hmm interesting...Are we not counting last year then?  :hmm:

[thestuman]

 

I would not go THAT far. Not sure if he is better than Jay Cutler? Are you saying that because Luck has thrown many INTs this year? The bears have a damn running game. The Colts do not, what do you expect when Luck throws the ball 30+ times a game or 40+ times a game against good teams. There's going to be an INT in there somewhere. With no running game, it hurts Luck in the long run.

Yes, the INTs and the six fumbles (same as Cutler).  There is a reason why running backs are no longer highly coveted.  That reason being the league has morphed into a passing league.  In addition, the running game is primarily a function of the O-line.  There are several top teams that have mediocre running backs.  Put those guys on the Colts and they fail.  Put our backs on those teams and they'll succeed (except for Trent - bust).  The fact that Luck has passed so much has allowed him to accumulate TDs and yardage at a rate higher than most other QBs.  If he had not thrown as much he would still have a high turnover rate (percentage biased) but he would not have the supporting stats that make some people think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  GO COLTS!!

[HungarianColtsFan]

Hmm interesting...Are we not counting last year then?  :hmm:

 

 

He's from an other planet... :-)

[HungarianColtsFan]

Yes, the INTs and the six fumbles (same as Cutler).  There is a reason why running backs are no longer highly coveted.  That reason being the league has morphed into a passing league.  In addition, the running game is primarily a function of the O-line.  There are several top teams that have mediocre running backs.  Put those guys on the Colts and they fail.  Put our backs on those teams and they'll succeed (except for Trent - bust).  The fact that Luck has passed so much has allowed him to accumulate TDs and yardage at a rate higher than most other QBs.  If he had not thrown as much he would still have a high turnover rate (percentage biased) but he would not have the supporting stats that make some people think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  GO COLTS!!

 

 

Please elaborate this statement.

[sfergson727]

Hmm interesting...Are we not counting last year then?  :hmm:

 

We were beat soundly in that game until Luck went insane and brought us back.  We should have lost.  That game had nothing to do with Pagano's coaching talent, and everything to do with Luck's.