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This Team has a Coaching Problem/Fire Coaches (Merge)


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No, this was the perfect time to take that chance.  Here's how I know...McDonald was WIDE OPEN.  So, that means their team had no idea it was coming.  About the same in that regard as McAfee's dribble kickoff.

 

The poor capabilities of our defense didn't factor in, here.  If they did, all the more reason to attempt it.  A punt puts our defense back on the field.

 

Perfect chance or not, there was no need for it at that point in the game.  The consequences of not making it on the fake punt were too great to overcome.  They were saying we're either gonna get a first down or give up 7 points and go down 14.  It was just not worth it.  

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I disagree. When you have a clear win, you go for it. And they did. Dewey just failed to catch the ball. Yes, it was risky, but you don't refuse to take a big play when the team is giving it up to you. 

i disagree it makes no sense to go for it there considering we ran three straight times before then. We handed them the game.

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I don't agree with that at all.  Especially when you are down 7 already.

The Cowboys repeat that kind of alignment through out the game, we

could have tried it at another point in the game. Not from the 10-20 yard

line.  

 

You obviously disagree... 

 

To me, the ends justify the means. Dewey should have caught the ball.

 

What we agree on is that the team seemed to be in R&D mode a little bit. But I don't have any problem with the fake punt, in any event. Catch the ball, damn it.

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Satele , Linkenbach and McGynn can all be argued to have played better this year. 

 

Nope.

 

Linkenbach had played 98 snaps prior to today. I don't see how we can even begin to have that discussion, unless your angle is that he's better on the bench than he is on the field.

 

McGlynn has been his usual, terrible self. He's given up as many sacks as all of our guards, combined.

 

Your argument begins and ends with Satele, and it's come off the rails in the last month, as he's given up 13 pressures in the last four games, and the Dolphins have struggled to run behind him. Satele was inexplicably pretty good the first half of the season, but he's been pretty bad lately.

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Nope.

 

Linkenbach had played 98 snaps prior to today. I don't see how we can even begin to have that discussion, unless your angle is that he's better on the bench than he is on the field.

 

McGlynn has been his usual, terrible self. He's given up as many sacks as all of our guards, combined.

 

Your argument begins and ends with Satele, and it's come off the rails in the last month, as he's given up 13 pressures in the last four games, and the Dolphins have struggled to run behind him. Satele was inexplicably pretty good the first half of the season, but he's been pretty bad lately.

 

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought Link was a starting guard for KC. Actually what I'm seeing is Link started 1 game and MM has stared 13

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You obviously disagree... 

 

To me, the ends justify the means. Dewey should have caught the ball.

 

What we agree on is that the team seemed to be in R&D mode a little bit. But I don't have any problem with the fake punt, in any event. Catch the ball, damn it.

 

 

Hey man I think you are a hell of a football mind and you can usually sway me to another view point,

but I ain't budging on that one! Lol!

 

I'm at a crossroads with the team right now.  I like that Pagano has the balls to be agressive at certain points, but I just can't put my finger on why this team is constantly starting out bad in these games like this.  It's like we get one thing plugged, or improved and then we blow a gasket somewhere else.   I felt we played pretty decent run defense against these guys with Murray only having 59 yards on 20 plus attempts.  The rest came from Romo running around, which was due to our lack of pass rush and a couple little runs from Randle.  Just when I think our Secondary was reliable they turn around and start getting torched, but much of it was due to the lack of pass rush.

 

 

Manuskys' been dressing this pig up for most of the season with blitzes to make up for our lack of ability to pressure from a 4 man front, but the playoff teams who can block expose this thing for what it is at one point or another.  Ultimately, I think what is really going seal our fate is this offensive line though.  If we can't run block, and on top of that Luck is being pressured that is a hard hole to crawl out of.

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Nope.

 

Linkenbach had played 98 snaps prior to today. I don't see how we can even begin to have that discussion, unless your angle is that he's better on the bench than he is on the field.

 

McGlynn has been his usual, terrible self. He's given up as many sacks as all of our guards, combined.

 

Your argument begins and ends with Satele, and it's come off the rails in the last month, as he's given up 13 pressures in the last four games, and the Dolphins have struggled to run behind him. Satele was inexplicably pretty good the first half of the season, but he's been pretty bad lately.

Where are you getting the 98 snaps from? Football Outsiders has him at 93 offensive snaps prior to tonight http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

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Hey man I think you are a hell of a football mind and you can usually sway me to another view point,

but I ain't budging on that one! Lol!

 

I'm at a crossroads with the team right now.  I like that Pagano has the balls to be agressive at certain points, but I just can't put my finger on why this team is constantly starting out bad in these games like this.  It's like we get one thing plugged, or improved and then we blow a gasket somewhere else.   I felt we played pretty decent run defense against these guys with Murray only having 59 yards on 20 plus attempts.  The rest came from Romo running around, which was due to our lack of pass rush and a couple little runs from Randle.  Just when I think our Secondary was reliable they turn around and start getting torched, but much of it was due to the lack of pass rush.

 

 

Manuskys' been dressing this pig up for most of the season with blitzes to make up for our lack of ability to pressure from a 4 man front, but the playoff teams who can block expose this thing for what it is at one point or another.  Ultimately, I think what is really going seal our fate is this offensive line though.  If we can't run block, and on top of that Luck is being pressured that is a hard hole to crawl out of.

 

I agree with this.

 

One question, though: If Dewey makes that catch, are you complaining about the try? Just curious...

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I agree with this.

 

One question, though: If Dewey makes that catch, are you complaining about the try? Just curious...

 

I still don't like that play from a field position standpoint.  But obviously any play that ends up working whether you agree with the decision to do it or not, you really are left with no choice but to cheer if it works.  I am not against being agressive on a play like that if we had better field position.  I mean if a girl stands right in front of you and says "I'm right here, come and kiss me!" then yes I'm going to get my kiss in most cases.  But if she's asking me to walk out on a cliff to get the kiss, I'm a bit more hesitant about that one!   It could work, but I think if it doesn't the consequences are more serious.

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I respectively disagree. Dungy and his hand picked replacement (which is ridiculous to have a leaving coach pick his successor), and general complacency cost us titles.

where would this franchise be without the Manning era? You might not have gotten as many championships as you would have wanted but it was not wasted.
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Well, they only won a single title with possibly the greatest QB ever, so there is definitely reason to say we underachieved.

and how many has Denver won with him? How many did the Packers win with Favre? How many did Miami win with Marino? How many did the 49ers win with Young as their starter? Winning Super Bowls is hard and is not the only way to measure success. Before Manning got here the Colts were a joke in Indianapolis other than two years with Harbaugh. Manning helped transform the Colts from joke to NFL powerhouse. That's not wasting him in my book. That's just not winnining as many Super Bowls as we all would have liked. Without question The Manning era changed the franchise forever in a positive way, They may not have maximized the Manning era but they hardly wasted it either.
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Let me ask you which is the best team we have beat all year? Okay which elite team have we been competitive against? Another one and done season. Book it.

Get rid of Pagano, this team is winning not because, but in spite of coaching staff. Would love someone like Harbaugh but that isn't happening. I hope local media can ask tough questions, we have been unprepared too many games this season.

Also what is the logic of 3 straight runs(run on 3rd and long) and asking your punter to throw? I know it was dropped, but just looking at logic behind that

Edit: also for those saying team had nothing to play for, so that's why they an egg. That's still on coaching....Also why play starters if there's no effort/heart?

This team didn't have much talent in 2012, but Arians knew how to get the team to play hard.

What about last season?

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You obviously disagree... 

 

To me, the ends justify the means. Dewey should have caught the ball.

 

What we agree on is that the team seemed to be in R&D mode a little bit. But I don't have any problem with the fake punt, in any event. Catch the ball, damn it.

Yep catch the damn ball!!

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You obviously disagree... 

 

To me, the ends justify the means. Dewey should have caught the ball.

 

What we agree on is that the team seemed to be in R&D mode a little bit. But I don't have any problem with the fake punt, in any event. Catch the ball, damn it.

exactly that's thing with those calls if you hit them like Pat did with the onside kicks earlier this year you're genius. If they don't work they tend to be extremely costly and people get upset at them.

Also what happened to all the people who spent all the Dungy, Caldwell, and even Pagano years saying the Colts were too conservative and needed to take more chances? The Colts took one and it didn't work, not because it wasn't drawn up well by the coaches or because the other team was ready for it and stopped but because a PLAYER didn't make a play. The call was great and the design was great if the players execute it that's a huge play for the Colts. I highlight the player part because this forum as whole tends to be extremely quick to blame coaching for EVERYTHING and the players for little. This wasn't a coaching mistake it was a player mistake.

For those questioning doing it where they did the thing with those plays you have to do them when you get a certain look from the other defense. If you only do them in a spot on the field where they are expected they aren't as likly to work because the other team is exciting it and it loses the surprise element. In this case the design worked exactly the Colts probably thought it would when they drew it up after watching film. The execution just wasnt there. Honestly, in a game that had some questionable coaching I thought the Coaches nailed this one the players just let them down on that play.

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Came back on the forum and expected to see some chaos. 

 

This is a thread that needed to be posted. Chuck is a great person, a great man, the ultimate motivator and he knows how to pump people up, but game after game, he gets out-coached and comes up with some horrendous gameplans. 

 

It's a shame. This roster is talented enough to be an AFC elite team. The defense has its good players (Davis is an elite CB, Adams is playing like an all pro, and the front 7 is talented enough to be a force), and the offense has Luck, yet they always lose to these top teams and it's never close. Any team with some talent and a smart coaching staff could easily beat this Colts team and that's a shame considering our talent and Andrew Luck.

 

Now, in his first three seasons as a coach, Chuck has clinched three playoff berths and has a playoff win under his belt, so that's impressive. However, a team must always progress; rarely can a team go backwards and the coach not pay the ultimate price. 

 

Grigson did a great job his first season, with his outstanding draft, the great Vontae Davis trade and some good FA signings (Redding, Avery to name a couple), but since then, not much has happened. Both drafts have been average at best, and there was obviously that horrendous Trent Richardson trade. Even if you haven't given up on T-Rich, getting rid of a first round pick was terrible. Then you have to consider some questionable free agent signings and then some minimal impacts from draft picks. It's nice to see Bjoern Werner, Jack Mewhort and Donte Moncrief contribute, but what about the other guys? Despite this, I don't think Grigson is the problem. I think Pagano and the staff has been a problem this year. Pep Hamilton (and I may get crap for this), has been mostly good. No one is perfect, and he has had some baffling calls (like running three times today for example), but overall, I'd give him a positive grade. Manusky has had his moments as well, but there's just too much inconsistency on defense. And then there's Chuck, who as a defensive minded coach, has failed to build a strong defense, despite all the money and picks dedicated towards building the defense. As mentioned earlier, he gets out-coached game after game.

 

I like Chuck a lot, but things need to change on his end in terms of game planning, preparing for opponents and must stop getting out-coached. 

 

I haven't been on the forum as much recently (or at all), and it's nice to come back. 

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Today reminds me of the 2006 week 14 meltdown in Jacksonville...

yep sometimes a game just spirals out of control on you. Happens to all teams, even good teams. Frankly most teams have a game or two like this a year. Look at the Pats in KC this year. We are spoiled from the Manning era where this happened very rarely, the Jags game you mentioned being one of the examples of a time it did, that we just aren't used to it. I know it's discoursging and there are a lot of things the Colts need to do better but they are still 10-5 and division champs. We will see what happens in the playoffs, maybe they will go on a run which no one expects but no one expected one after the Jags game in 06 either. If they don't then we will have the whole off-season to speculate on what can be done to improve the team.
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Few thoughts.

1. What bothers me the most about Pagano is I think the team is a bit undisciplined. Look at the number of pentalties this year and turnovers as examples of this. Honestly, today's biggest play was an example of it. First series Colts have the Cowboys stopped and off the filed, yet Freeman can't be happy with that he has to open his mouth and gets flagged for it. Keeps the drive alive and the Cowboys score putting the Colts behind the 8 ball from the get go and giving Dallas momentum when the Colts had it after the stop. That's coaching and you have to make sure your players are smarter than that.

2. The Colts want to badly be what they are not, a power running, screen pass throwing ball control offense. They aren't that. They are built to stretch the field with Hilton (who I know didn't play today) Moncrief, and Fleener with Wayne, Nicks, and Allen working underneath. When the Colts attack this way the offense is at its best.

3. With that said I did not understand the game plan of running behind your third string tackle, back up guard and new center to open the game. If you are going to run there it seems like it should be behind the left side of your line which has been the strength of your oline this year.

4. The Colts looked to very much being going through the motions today and I wonder how truly bad the Colts wanted this game because they sure didn't look like it.

5. If the game is so out of hand you yank Luck shouldn't reggie, who by all accounts is not 100%, come out too? I know they only had four WRs counting Cribbs but make Cribbs run some routes or have Fleener play WR. Just get Reggie out of there too. Thst has nothing to do with locality that has to do with not exposing an already injuried player to more injury in game you have already conceded.

So there are things the coaches didn't do well today but i also saw a team of players who didn't make plays today as well. How many broken tackles were there on defense? How many drops on offense? The poorly executed fake punt. Luck not throwing the ball away at the end of the half and throwing an INT there, Cribbs bringing it out to the 16 from the very back of his own endzone. Those are player mistakes that have nothing to do with coaching but had just as big of an impact on the gsme.

I also saw a team that still doesn't have enough talent. This is the bad thing about over achieving right away after a 2-14 season. It makes it harder to replenish your talent supply. Don't get me wrong I am not saying the Colts did anything wrong by winning but they still have huge gaps in this team thst they just have found the answers to. While they are winnining they are still building their talent pool as well as gaining experience for players that haven't hit their peek yet. This isn't Manning and company in 06 that had been together the better part of six to eight years. This is kids still learning how to win in the NFL

Sometimes progress isn't just a steady line straight up. It's a process. The Colts got roughed up pretty good today lets see how they bounce back. There is enough blame to go around after a day like today, from the GM to the third string tackle. Hopefully the Colts respond. Maybe this is a good thing because they didn't win playing extremely sub par football like they gave been doing. Maybe getting beat up will be the wake up call they need to say you must play better.

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Do ya think it was a call from the coach or just a Mcaffe call?

I'm pretty certain it's a call the players make on the field, based on alignment. But I also think the coaches sometimes take that option away from the players, based on game situation. Playoff game, I don't think that play is tried in that situation.
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hey in another note, I laughed so hard I cryed about the Arby's glasses!!

Im glad someone enjoyed my joke (before the thread was locked). After that complete embarrassment  I was sitting here with the Luck glass beside me that the thought of smashing it against the wall made me LOL so I thought someone else might too.

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:lol:  haha  :funny:

 

Jeff Fisher??

 

Let's see....a whopping 3 division titles and a total of 6 winning seasons out of 20 seasons as a Head Coach....5 playoff victories, with 3 of those clustered into one post season.

 

Jeff Fisher is the absolute portrait of NFL coaching mediocrity....and he'd be drawn and quartered on this whinefest of a Forum. 

Well considering he was in a division with Peyton Manning for most of his coaching career....

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Starting the game with 3 runs, including a stupid draw on 3rd down, capped by a foolish fake punt from your own 19 yard line tells you all you need to know about this coaching staff. This is just an instance. We can talk forever about the lack of adequate game plans and predictability on offense.

The 3 straight runs I agree with, the fake punt? Nope I like the call.  This team has been daring on special teams all year so I don't mind the call at all. It worked! 

 

The speical teams on this team is special. They are not there to simply act as transitions from offense to defense, they are there to contribute big plays and this was a great example. Of all the things that went wrong this game, this was not one of them!  The drop was, the call was perfect.

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What I would like to know (and will probably never know) is just how much(percentage wise for example) does coaching staff and the players practice fundamentals as opposed to preparing game plans for opponents and practicing the plays they are gonna run

 

Good question I would like to also know this

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So a bunch of upset Colts fans complaining after a bad loss say that the talent and the coaching staff are bad, so let's just blow everyone out, right? Is that it?

 

Not blow everyone out, but for US not to be blown out. It's the truth, we struggle against good teams. Sure we've shown up and played hard against the Ravens and the Bengals, but have terrible losses to the Steelers, Patriots, and Cowboys. Those 3 losses, I would call blowouts.

 

The Eagles loss was a tough pill to swallow. Kinda how during Luck's rookie year we lost to the Jaguars at home. Then the following year lost to the Dolphins at home.

 

We've put in tons of work into our O-Line. Look at it now. It is arguably not any better than last year. Mewhort was a great pick up by Grigs. Maybe to succeed we need to use the first 2 rounds of the draft next year for a Center and Right Guard. Cherilus at Right Tackle is serviceable. Use our current starters at Center, Right Guard, and Right Tackle as depth only. Then we may see some progress in our line.

 

Look at Satele for the Dolphins. He's had a great year (slowing a bit right now) but better than our current situation. THAT right there is a coaching problem. We need someone in here that KNOWS how to coach an offense. If we do not, then we will continue to have an under performing O-Line and continue to have little to no run game throughout an entire football season.

 

We have some SERIOUS soul searching to do and I hope all this hype that our fans are causing right now after this brutal loss, catches the eye of Irsay. We deserve better coaching with Andrew Luck, we cannot waste his time here. I wouldn't have said we are wasting his time until this season due to bad losses to good teams. Look at Russell Wilson and the Seahawks. They have been pretty irrelevant until 2012 when they drafted Russell Wilson. In 2011, the Seahawks had a losing record of 7-9, the following year with Russell that team went 11-5 and the following year went 13-3 with a Superbowl win. That could be us, but we aren't even close when we SHOULD BE right now.

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The 3 straight runs I agree with, the fake punt? Nope I like the call. This team has been daring on special teams all year so I don't mind the call at all. It worked!

The speical teams on this team is special. They are not there to simply act as transitions from offense to defense, they are there to contribute big plays and this was a great example. Of all the things that went wrong this game, this was not one of them! The drop was, the call was perfect.

i liked the fake punt call and judging by how open the guy was it was the right call and right play design just not executed by the players. I also don't think fans that have spent years complaining the coaches are too consersvtive and must be more aggressive can really complain when they try to be aggressive and it doesn't work. They are doing exactly what a good chunk of fans here said they must do. There are consequences if it doesn't work which is why a lot of coaches are conservative.

With that said, like you I did not like or understand the three runs to start the game. If you want to run the ball fine but atleast run to the left behind the strength of your line not behind your third string tackle and backup guard.

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Best teams we've beaten are the Bengals sans AJ Green and the Ravens both at home.

 

This team still has some pretty strong flaws.  I think the most glaring is the lack of pass rush.

yeah mathis being out still hurts, and in the blitzes don't work forget about it. I thInk the o-line and turnovers shows up more but not being able to get to the QB without a blitz shows up too.
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yeah mathis being out still hurts, and in the blitzes don't work forget about it. I thInk the o-line and turnovers shows up more but not being able to get to the QB without a blitz shows up too.

 

Especially against competent QB's.  They tend to know where they should go if you Blitz and if you don't blitz they can take their time.

 

Luck hasn't been playing well either.  He's never had a good line in front of him, so I have a hard time saying that it's only cause the O-line is failing him.  But he's turning the ball over a lot now.  I mean this is starting to look worse then his rookie year.  

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Especially against competent QB's.  They tend to know where they should go if you Blitz and if you don't blitz they can take their time.

 

Luck hasn't been playing well either.  He's never had a good line in front of him, so I have a hard time saying that it's only cause the O-line is failing him.  But he's turning the ball over a lot now.  I mean this is starting to look worse then his rookie year.

Hes struggling the last few weeks, I think he's feeling the wear and tear of the season. They have to improve the line and get a running game in front of him to take pressure off him.
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Something in the organization smells, and I don't like it. Superman is right to an extent. You don't build a championship caliber team in 3 years. But what Rodney Harrison said about the Colts yesterday goes along with that. The Colts have a lot of flaws, and can't compete against the big dogs. The roster before the Luck era was basically garbage, but Manning was like a golden lid over the roster for years.

 

However, there is something going on with coaching that doesn't sit right. I'm not the first to say that they don't seem to play the best players, and the trend continues. They seem so reluctant to want to believe Trent is a major bust. 3rd and 14 and you give it to Trent on a draw? Terrible play-call regardless of the RB, but worse considering it was 3.0 Richardson.

 

And now we've seen another game where the coaching staff seems un-prepared and out of it's element. At OC, there is no excuse for only being able to put up 7 garbage time points against a Cowboys D that isn't anything special. Some of it was on Luck, who played awful and some were on receiver drops,etc... but the offensive game plan seemed terrible. Run game was a joke. 10 total carries by all 3 backs.

 

At DC, I didn't expect much pass rush given Dallas has the best O-line in the league, but they were a sieve out there. Sure, Murray only had 58 yards and Randle 37, they kept the chains moving. You don't have to rush for 100 yards to be effective. The secondary was probably the worst part though. 90 yards and a TD to Witten (we still can't cover TE's), 53 yards and a TD to Bryant,52 yards and 2 TDs to Williams.All while Romo only missed 2 passes.

 

What I don't get is why fans like Superman get upset when other fans get worried when we play elite teams. Everyone knows personnel wise, were out matched. There are a lot of people who saw this coming, just like we saw the thrashing by NE coming. It's not just lack of talent though. We're outmatched on the coaching level too. This team can't throw together a game plan in any of the 3 phases to topple one of the elite teams. What Shwartz did to Green Bay was an example of good coaching (from the DC position). Andy Reid against the Patriots, good coaching. Gruden in Washington who beat both Dallas and the Eagles once, good coaching. That's not us. When we go against elite teams, neither Pep, Manusky, or Pagano seem to have a game plan. Against the best we struggle on offense and defense. ST is almost the best part of the team.

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It's a blessing and a curse that this team rebounded from 2011 so quickly. For some, it has resulted in a skewed perspective.

 

The reality is that you don't build a championship team in free agency, so it doesn't really matter how much cap space the team had. Expecting a Super Bowl in less than three years (which is still where we are) is completely unrealistic. Getting back in the mix is a result of Luck being able to play at a high level, especially late in games, so soon. It's not "plus they have Luck." He was the difference.

 

And I'm not blindly devoted to Grigson or Pagano. I just think that, three years in, it's absurd to be moaning about not being one of the very best teams in the NFL and talking about wasted potential and all that crap. 

 

I would hate to look up in a couple years and see that we've turned into the 2013-14 Falcons. We always thought that the Falcons were on their way, that Mike Smith was a good coach, etc. And now, they look like they need to hit the reset button. I'm nervous that Pagano doesn't have that next level ability to lead a team into serious contention. But that's entirely different from the peanut gallery attitude around here. 

 

I get that sentiment, I do. I'm just blown away by the devotion to bad players this team has. Now, I'm not saying putting Shipley at Center and Holmes at RG is going to solve every one of our problems and the world is going to be rainbows and unicorns, but Luck has better protection with those guys on the line versus Reitz or Louis or Nixon. 

 

There are answers already on our roster- and it does bug me that those guys (Rookies, and younger guys) don't get a chance to develop because we have some free agent signing or blockbuster trade in the way.

 

Nicks over Moncrief

Louis over Holmes

Richardson over every other RB

 

Combine that with the atrocious playcalling we saw last night and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

You have an offensive line that can't block, but you want to have a horizontal passing game that requires these guys to block on two levels?

 

You want to start the game fast, and have a score first offense? You don't run the ball on 3rd and 14. (After running it for -5 yards and 1 yard on first and second down) 

 

This is just another game that shows the complete failure in philosophy that Pagano and his staff have. "Run the ball, stop the run". 

Cowboys-127 yards on the ground

Colts- 1 yard rushing

 

It's not even like we went all out to stop the pass either! Tony Romo was 90% for completions yesterday, and Brandon Weeden was 100% (1 pass, 1 completion, 1 touchdown) against us. This team is just junk, but better junk than the other three teams in the AFC South. Outside of the Jaguars twice, the Texans twice and the Titans once (Five of our wins) We beat Cleveland, Cincinatti, Baltimore, Washington and NY Giants.

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