Leonard seems displeased with his role

[Zoltan]

50 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is obviously true, but that's a January to March discussion. Maybe you extend that conversation through the summer. It's not a November discussion.

 

Yet, any time a highly paid player is injured and can't play, or has a bad game, or even a bad play, there will be a 'why did we pay him?' reply. There will be a 'for X million dollars, he should be out there' post. And it's petty, IMO. 

 

It's especially petty in this case, when the accusation is that Leonard got paid and then decided to coast. In reality, the dude had a really difficult injury to recover from, and probably lost two years of his prime because of it. And that's no one's choice, it's just the circumstance.

 

I could easily see him getting cut or traded then have a monster season next year with an actual offseason that he is doing strength training instead of rehab and going to a system that uses him right.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

32 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I could easily see him getting cut or traded then have a monster season next year with an actual offseason that he is doing strength training instead of rehab and going to a system that uses him right.

He had a ton of time this off-season strengthening his ankle. He spent weeks in SC with his personal trainer getting strength back. From what I understand the rehab of this injury is all strength and conditioning building the muscle back up.

[richard pallo]

It’s no secret that Leonard’s play has improved significantly in the last four weeks.  So much so that he is our highest rated linebacker with a good score putting him at number 46/80 in the league.  Higher than Franklin and Speed.  No splash plays from either one of those two that I can remember.  So with eight games remaining he is trending up and improving and is statistically our best linebacker.  But Gus’s scheme is so far taking him out on 3rd down.  Kind of puzzling to me.  He has his reasons apparently but I can see Leonard’s frustration.  Gus is a holdover from Reich.  So I think we might be in for an interesting offseason when it comes to the defensive side of the ball.   We have a frustrated team leader on defense and a holdover DC trying to get his defense to play significantly better.  I think it’s safe to say we have no idea how this is going to work out.

 

[Blueblood23]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

So the narrative is that he doesn't make any impact plays, 'yeah he had 10 tackles but what good is that when they're 10 yards down the field?', and so on. Someone shows him beating a blocker, getting into the backfield, and making a solo tackle for a loss, and still he gets no credit? It wasn't a big enough hit or something?

 

The ideas have been that Leonard is slow, scared, doesn't care, can't handle the physicality, doesn't make splash plays, etc. Doesn't this play debunk all of that?

I posted earlier that Leonard doesn’t put the wood to anyone anymore. The poster responded with this take of Leonard grabbing the players foot for a loss. I stand by my post saying he doesn’t lay the wood to anyone. He seems to shy away from contact. I’m waiting for that one big hit. 

[ShuteAt168]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

This is obviously true, but that's a January to March discussion. Maybe you extend that conversation through the summer. It's not a November discussion.

 

Yet, any time a highly paid player is injured and can't play, or has a bad game, or even a bad play, there will be a 'why did we pay him?' reply. There will be a 'for X million dollars, he should be out there' post. And it's petty, IMO. 

 

It's especially petty in this case, when the accusation is that Leonard got paid and then decided to coast. In reality, the dude had a really difficult injury to recover from, and probably lost two years of his prime because of it. And that's no one's choice, it's just the circumstance.

I agree with a lot of this. But fans naturally expect more from higher paid players. I just don’t see how Shaq is helping the team or even himself by complaining publicly, for now the second time. First it was Taylor, then Pitt (yes, he corrected it a day later) and now Shaq. The whining is annoying, to me at least. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Blueblood23 said:

I posted earlier that Leonard doesn’t put the wood to anyone anymore. The poster responded with this take of Leonard grabbing the players foot for a loss. I stand by my post saying he doesn’t lay the wood to anyone. He seems to shy away from contact. I’m waiting for that one big hit. 

 

Got it. When has Leonard ever been a big hitter? 

[Zoltan]

3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

He had a ton of time this off-season strengthening his ankle. He spent weeks in SC with his personal trainer getting strength back. From what I understand the rehab of this injury is all strength and conditioning building the muscle back up.

Exactly when you primarily focused on getting one part of your body back to 100% (your ankle) you really can't focus on the rest of your body or even focus on getting max strength and conditioning for the full season. It's also the mindset of going from "this offseason I need to get my ankle healthy" to "This offseason I'm gonna get in the best shape possible."

[Blueblood23]

46 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Got it. When has Leonard ever been a big hitter? 

Well I’ve seen Hunter Smith and Pat McAfee put it on some returners over the years. It would be expected that a NFL linebacker be able to do the same. 

[husker61]

3 hours ago, Zoltan said:

Exactly when you primarily focused on getting one part of your body back to 100% (your ankle) you really can't focus on the rest of your body or even focus on getting max strength and conditioning for the full season. It's also the mindset of going from "this offseason I need to get my ankle healthy" to "This offseason I'm gonna get in the best shape possible."

to think that a professional athlete that has nothing else to do but train can only rehab a injury is crazy. I haven’t heard him say that, probably because he was training along with  the rehabbing.

[Zoltan]

Just now, husker61 said:

to think that a professional athlete that has nothing else to do but train can only rehab a injury is crazy. I haven’t heard him say that, probably because he was training along with  the rehabbing.

Sure you can do some things, but have you ever rehabbed something like a leg after surgery. Its impossible to do certain moves and you have to alot just for it to feel somewhat normal. When you reach that point you slowly regain confidence in just moving without the fear of re-injurying and then you can start rebuilding strength to where you were. Leonard is at the point where he's regaining confidence in movement, this will be the first offseason in awhile that he isn't doing a surgery and recovery. He will be able to do OTAs and be available for a full training camp. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

Sure you can do some things, but have you ever rehabbed something like a leg after surgery. It’s impossible to do certain moves and you have to alot just for it to feel somewhat normal. When you reach that point you slowly regain confidence in just moving without the fear of re-injurying and then you can start rebuilding strength to where you were. Leonard is at the point where he's regaining confidence in movement, this will be the first offseason in awhile that he isn't doing a surgery and recovery. He will be able to do OTAs and be available for a full training camp. 

My hunch is the team and Shaq will have to come to financial terms by mid-March when the new NFL yearly calendar starts.  
 

The guy makes $20 mill a year,  but he doesn’t play like it anymore.  So….  If Shaq wants to stay then there needs to be a contract restructure.   And the problem with that is he currently sounds pretty angry with the team, and may not want to do a deal with them.   Put another way, Shaq may try to force his way out of Indy. 
 

So….  If Ballard wants to try and keep him, then CB will have to work his magic with Shaq as he did with JT.   Putting toothpaste back in the tube is hard.   Can Ballard and Irsay smooth things over by mid-March?    Maybe.    But I think they’ll only have two months to do it.   You have to do it by then because you don’t want Leonard’s $20 mil on the books when the team is trying to sign free agents in March. 

 

Lots of moving parts. 
 

[OhioColt]

In 2022 nickel became the new base defense.  Defenses played nickel on 12,630 opponent pass attempts and dime only on 2,715 drop backs.  With just 3,206 defensive drop backs against four defensive backs last season, base is no longer the preferred look.  Three-safety looks also increased as teams move to three safeties and two cornerbacks making the slot defender more important than in year’s past.

 

It is not a big surprise to see Leonard's role decrease even from his injury recovery.   This is his main beef playing one first downs but being sidelined on second and third downs.  A lot has to do with our DC and game plan.  If you look back Leonard was effective when we had a different DC and game plan.  The Colts need a slot defender that has coverage skills but also blitz instincts of linebackers which is why Kenny Moore is so important to this team.

[Scott Pennock]

This is some real cry baby % right here...........he led the team in tackles last week, but only one that I recall was within three yards of the LOS.............

 

He is getting outplayed every week and shows none of the fire and ability he had prior to the injuries. Sorry, the NFL stands for Not For Long for a reason!

 

"Everybody says they want you to keep that fight up until you step on toes," Leonard said. "... I honestly don't know what to do. I have put my best foot forward every day. I come in the building, do the best I possibly can to be the best leader I can be. I go out to practice. I practice extremely hard. I play extremely hard -- do my job as well as I possibly can and just let the chips fall where they fall.

"I've just got to control what I can control. That is play well on the snaps that I play, and then I sit on the bench frustrated. And, when you get back out there, continue to do what I do."

[Defjamz26]

Man there’s so many factors at play here. On one hand, I think we’re all in agreement that Shaq is not a good fit in Bradley’s defense. He’s much more of a Tampa-2 WILL LB and he flourished in Eberflus’ scheme. That much can’t be denied. It also seems that Franklin is a perfect fit In this scheme. Shan’s fall from grace has been Franklin’s rise, so it can be argued that Zaire is Shaq in Bradley’s scheme. Also most of the LBs we’ve played have looked good in this scheme.

 

Then there’s the injury aspect. It’s very possible that Leonard has lost his explosion due to the type of injuries he had. He just doesn’t look like the same player on the field, and we’re 9 weeks in. He may just be damaged goods.

 

Then there’s also the Gus Bradley factor. I’m on record as saying he needs to go this off-season as his stubbornness on personnel decisions and struggles adjusting are holding this team back. It’s easy to think about Facyson over Rodgers, Baker being an opening day starter, and the disappearance of Cross and think the issues with Leonard are one and the same, but I’m not so sure. The players that are playing over Shaq or splitting reps with him aren’t playing bad. Speed has looked really good and Olubi looked fine last week. Franklin is the leading tackler in the NFL. 
 

To me regardless of what happens with Bradley, I think the best thing for both parties moving forward would be a separation. Leonard is damaged goods and isn’t worth what he’s getting paid to do, when players that are on the team and getting paid way less can do what he does. Honestly if we got more game changing plays and turnovers from our Edge rushers and secondary, this wouldn’t even be a conversation. I view him as Kevin Byard. Once was an elite player at the position, but probably peaked and won’t have that level of play again.

[richard pallo]

2 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Man there’s so many factors at play here. On one hand, I think we’re all in agreement that Shaq is not a good fit in Bradley’s defense. He’s much more of a Tampa-2 WILL LB and he flourished in Eberflus’ scheme. That much can’t be denied. It also seems that Franklin is a perfect fit In this scheme. Shan’s fall from grace has been Franklin’s rise, so it can be argued that Zaire is Shaq in Bradley’s scheme. Also most of the LBs we’ve played have looked good in this scheme.

 

Then there’s the injury aspect. It’s very possible that Leonard has lost his explosion due to the type of injuries he had. He just doesn’t look like the same player on the field, and we’re 9 weeks in. He may just be damaged goods.

 

Then there’s also the Gus Bradley factor. I’m on record as saying he needs to go this off-season as his stubbornness on personnel decisions and struggles adjusting are holding this team back. It’s easy to think about Facyson over Rodgers, Baker being an opening day starter, and the disappearance of Cross and think the issues with Leonard are one and the same, but I’m not so sure. The players that are playing over Shaq or splitting reps with him aren’t playing bad. Speed has looked really good and Olubi looked fine last week. Franklin is the leading tackler in the NFL. 
 

To me regardless of what happens with Bradley, I think the best thing for both parties moving forward would be a separation. Leonard is damaged goods and isn’t worth what he’s getting paid to do, when players that are on the team and getting paid way less can do what he does. Honestly if we got more game changing plays and turnovers from our Edge rushers and secondary, this wouldn’t even be a conversation. I view him as Kevin Byard. Once was an elite player at the position, but probably peaked and won’t have that level of play again.

Olubi did not look fine last week.  He was bad.  Very bad.  His interception helped to bring his score up to 54.6.  Which is a bad score.  He was charged with 5 missed tackles.  That’s bad.  I’m very happy for his interception but to say he was playing fine I don’t see it.  Speed is playing fine.  He’s a good linebacker.  Franklin is playing good as well.  Leading the league in tackles as did a former linebacker for the Colts a number of years back.  Walker was his name I believe and we let him leave in FA to Cleveland.  Okeroke was good as well and we let him leave in FA.  Leonard was a difference maker before his injury.  Now he appears to be fighting his way back.  Whether he is a fit for Gus’s scheme is the question.  His strength are his instincts. He’s a playmaker when unleashed.  So far he remains leashed.  If Gus comes back there is a good chance we might move on from him.  Like I said it will be an interesting off season.  I’m pulling for Leonard but whatever happens happens.  We will just have to find another starter.  

[Defjamz26]

44 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Leonard was a difference maker before his injury.  Now he appears to be fighting his way back.  Whether he is a fit for Gus’s scheme is the question.  His strength are his instincts.

The thing that he offered the team was his ability to create turnovers. Forced fumbles and interceptions were his calling card. If you take that away, he’s an average LB at best. He’s undersized for a typical Off ball LB and I actually think Zaire is better against the run when it comes to instincts and play recognition. The injuries and the scheme change have taken away what made him special, and that’s really no one’s fault. It’s just a matter of circumstance. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

The thing that he offered the team was his ability to create turnovers. Forced fumbles and interceptions were his calling card. If you take that away, he’s an average LB at best. He’s undersized for a typical Off ball LB and I actually think Zaire is better against the run when it comes to instincts and play recognition. The injuries and the scheme change have taken away what made him special, and that’s really no one’s fault. It’s just a matter of circumstance. 

That’s what I’m saying.  Gus has taken away his ability to play instinctively.  He’s keeping him leashed and not giving him freedom which is where he is dangerous.  That’s why if Gus stays he’s most likely going to be moved.  At the half way point he appears to have recovered from the injuries.  He’s improving every week.  So it’s a Gus issue for me.  Unless he decides to turn him loose not much is going to change.  He will probably still grade out to be our best linebacker overall.  Just not the splash plays we were accustomed too.

[Superman]

15 hours ago, Blueblood23 said:

Well I’ve seen Hunter Smith and Pat McAfee put it on some returners over the years. It would be expected that a NFL linebacker be able to do the same. 

 

So Leonard won't be "back" until he starts doing things that he was never known for doing in the first place? And unless that happens, you'll continue to claim that he took the money and ran? 

 

This doesn't seem like a fair and reasonable evaluation.

[Blueblood23]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So Leonard won't be "back" until he starts doing things that he was never known for doing in the first place? And unless that happens, you'll continue to claim that he took the money and ran? 

 

This doesn't seem like a fair and reasonable evaluation.

Yes that’s correct. Fair or unfair that’s what I believe. 

[Hawkeyecolt]

Leonard is being paid handsomely to play the WILL.  He needs to quit crying and do what his employer is paying him to do. He practiced at the MIKE prior to the Carolina game and the coaches decided against it. I’m sure the coaches and front office would preferred to have their high priced LB out there.  It must not have looked good in practice.  If Leonard wants to get on the field more then be one of the top two linebackers in coverage.  He’s not plain and simple. 

[Defjamz26]

2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

That’s what I’m saying.  Gus has taken away his ability to play instinctively.  He’s keeping him leashed and not giving him freedom which is where he is dangerous.  That’s why if Gus stays he’s most likely going to be moved.  At the half way point he appears to have recovered from the injuries.  He’s improving every week.  So it’s a Gus issue for me.  Unless he decides to turn him loose not much is going to change.  He will probably still grade out to be our best linebacker overall.  Just not the splash plays we were accustomed too.

Recovered from injuries is questionable. He may not ever be the player he was and the coaches may see that. I’m all for fitting the scheme around the players, but altering your entire game plan to see if an often injured LB can make the plays he use to make 2 years ago is a stretch. Especially when you’re already getting good production out of your other LBs.

 

Its different with Nick Cross because Thomas and Blackmon (he’s been okay the last two games) aren’t playing good, so there’s reasons to figure out how to get him on the field in a way he can contribute. But the Colts defense doesn’t necessarily need better at the LB position. They need other players (corners, safety, and edge rushers) to generate the turnovers that Leonard would make. Honestly what this defense lacks more than anything else is a legit edge rusher and a ball hawking safety.

[1959Colts]

Bill Belichick will certainly try to run the ball down our throats. This is another game in which Leonard gets to show what he's got. 

I believe, we have to be able to stop (or at least slow) the Patriots run game, and make Mac Jones beat us.

...which then, I will not be surprised, if Jones ends up looking like an all pro this week.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, Blueblood23 said:

Yes that’s correct. Fair or unfair that’s what I believe. 

Leonard isn't Ray Lewis.  Never has been.   Expecting that is ridiculous 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, 1959Colts said:

Bill Belichick will certainly try to run the ball down our throats. This is another game in which Leonard gets to show what he's got. 

I believe, we have to be able to stop (or at least slow) the Patriots run game, and make Mac Jones beat us.

...which then, I will not be surprised, if Jones ends up looking like an all pro this week.

Kind of funny both teams probably have the same offensive and defensive game plan.

[1959Colts]

37 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Kind of funny both teams probably have the same offensive and defensive game plan.

Yep. I agree. Both teams would love to run the ball.

I know Taylor had that one good game vs NE, but their defense is usually tough against the run. I expect they will stack the box and make us pass.

Should it come down to the passing game...  I'd expect BB to blitz Minshew and Gus to play mostly coverage against Jones.

Hunter Henry is a player that could be one to watch.

[indyagent17]

I am so tired of his nonsense. Yes we know  we’re treated badly in a restaurant and you battle with depression. It’s time to man up and play like you used to and go back to Darius. Shut up and play better 

 

[Blueblood23]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Leonard isn't Ray Lewis.  Never has been.   Expecting that is ridiculous 

So is his contract. 

[EasyE]

I could be wrong and big possibility I am. I think Gus may be gone after this season. IMO Not as a scapegoat either, he just isn't the guy and not sure Leonard is the guy either anymore. 

[Scott Pennock]

Shaq out there playing like a chump still…..non existent for the most part! SMH 

[ColtsLegacy]

15 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Shaq out there playing like a chump still…..non existent for the most part! SMH 

 

Non-existent would be an upgrade from his play today.

[IndyD4U]

Well, at least he is consistently out of position or on his butt

[Indyfan4life]

Idk. He had a couple of stops, but nothing incredible. Hopefully the bye gets some players rested/healed and he begins performing better. Right now he's not contributing much.

[tweezy32]

This is the worst I’ve ever seen him play. It was so bad. Every replay was him getting put on his butt or just whiffing on plays lol

[John Hammonds]

Welp, they gave him what he wanted.  More playing time.  More opportunities to make big plays.

 

From what I saw, he had more opportunities to make bad plays.

 

I want DARIUS Leonard back.  Shaquille Leonard isn't all that good.

[GoColts8818]

9 tackles including a key tip on a pass.  You can say he’s not playing up to his contract but he’s not playing as bad as some want him to.  He’s getting better each week.  It would be nice if he could force or turnover or two though.

[Matabix]

If Gus retains his job next year I would cut Shaq. If Gus is fired I would keep Shaq.

[indyagent17]

I would say he last the entire season. If this play continues to be bad, he will  be replaced and ride the bench. He’ll be cut after the season wants his cap hit is lowest . It’s a darn shame because I expected him to be like this for 10 years, but he decided to bring this on himself. He made himself a victim and a martyr, but it backfired, because either he is so hurt or that he is so timid.

[Blueblood23]

44 minutes ago, Matabix said:

If Gus retains his job next year I would cut Shaq. If Gus is fired I would keep Shaq.

Shaq is working on getting Gus fired.

[ColtsLegacy]

2 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

9 tackles including a key tip on a pass.  You can say he’s not playing up to his contract but he’s not playing as bad as some want him to.  He’s getting better each week.  It would be nice if he could force or turnover or two though.

 

Ohhh Puhhh-leeezzzz

 

I'm not sure anyone wants Leonard to play at a high level again more than I do. Sadly, with that said, he was absolutely horrendous today and the lights just haven't been on all year.

 

Today, he was hesitant, getting put on his *, getting juked in open field and he just looks plain slow. Unfortunately, 7 assisted tackles on a stat sheet does not a good day make.

 

He looks like an old man trying to recapture his glory days and it's just so sad. A sure fire HOF career ruined and now he will likely hardly be remembered outside of Indy. Again, I really hope something changes but those injuries have clearly wrecked him.

[GoColts8818]

16 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Ohhh Puhhh-leeezzzz

 

I'm not sure anyone wants Leonard to play at a high level again more than I do. Sadly, with that said, he was absolutely horrendous today and the lights just haven't been on all year.

 

Today, he was hesitant, getting put on his *, getting juked in open field and he just looks plain slow. Unfortunately, 7 assisted tackles on a stat sheet does not a good day make.

 

He looks like an old man trying to recapture his glory days and it's just so sad. A sure fire HOF career ruined and now he will likely hardly be remembered outside of Indy. Again, I really hope something changes but those injuries have clearly wrecked him.

Yeah he’s not playing as bad as you are making it out to be.  As I said in my post he still has work to do to get back to the player he was.  However he’s not the bum some are making him out to be.  As I said in the post game thread today was not a good day for the linebackers across the board.  However a lot of that was the Pats oline blowing the dline off the ball causing the linebackers to not be attacking downhill and just trying to get backs down.  It’s really hard for any linebacker to stop a running back that can cut and juke going full speed and you don’t know where hes going.  That’s what happened today because the Pats oline ate up the Colts dline.  
 

also it’s not just my eye test that tells me Shaq has played better than some want to admit.  His PFF grade (that people love to swear by) has been good and has graded as the Colts best linebacker this year.

 

With that said I freely admit this was not his best game but it wasn’t a great game for any of the linebackers today for the reason I said above.