My take on Tolzien, Morris, Brissett and Walker

[Indeee]

You have to use a little common sense and read between the lines here....

 

Morris was never in the Colts plans regardless of out playing Tolzien. Brissett WILL BE the back up QB for the next 3 years. Tolzien will be released once Luck is healthy or Brissett is comfy in the offense, whichever comes first. Walker was only QB that was eligible for PS.

 

There was no way the Colts we're going to let Morris start while Lucks out to potentially give any controversy to a back up QB battle. If the Colts had traded a 6th for brissett, maybe, but not after trading Dorsett. This is why Morris was waived.

 

On the bright side, I'm almost certain, Tolzien has been told he will be released sooner than later, so while he starts he is basically auditioning for another job somewhere else, so it's imperative scott does well in his dress rehearsal.

 

 

[Justin Zima]

6 minutes ago, Indeee said:

You have to use a little common sense and read between the lines here....

 

Morris was never in the Colts plans regardless of out playing Tolzien. Brissett WILL BE the back up QB for the next 3 years. Tolzien will be released once Luck is healthy or Brissett is comfy in the offense, whichever comes first. Walker was only QB that was eligible for PS.

 

There was no way the Colts we're going to let Morris start while Lucks out to potentially give any controversy to a back up QB battle. If the Colts had traded a 6th for brissett, maybe, but not after trading Dorsett. This is why Morris was waived.

 

On the bright side, I'm almost certain, Tolzien has been told he will be released sooner than later, so while he starts he is basically auditioning for another job somewhere else, so it's imperative scott does well in his dress rehearsal.

 

 

Great analysis, I was on to the same train of thought myself. Tolzein will work hard to impress in his start or two in order to be a back up else where because Brissett is obviously the direction that back up QB spot is going. If he manages the game and takes a chance to our playmakers every so often our offense should be able to put up some point especially with our newly improved run game. 

[jskinnz]

31 minutes ago, Indeee said:

You have to use a little common sense and read between the lines here....

 

Morris was never in the Colts plans regardless of out playing Tolzien. Brissett WILL BE the back up QB for the next 3 years. Tolzien will be released once Luck is healthy or Brissett is comfy in the offense, whichever comes first. Walker was only QB that was eligible for PS.

 

There was no way the Colts we're going to let Morris start while Lucks out to potentially give any controversy to a back up QB battle. If the Colts had traded a 6th for brissett, maybe, but not after trading Dorsett. This is why Morris was waived.

 

On the bright side, I'm almost certain, Tolzien has been told he will be released sooner than later, so while he starts he is basically auditioning for another job somewhere else, so it's imperative scott does well in his dress rehearsal.

 

 

 

I believe this is serious overthinking.  

 

For not one second do I believe they made the decision to cut Morris to avoid any QB controversy.  It is really nothing more than they took everything into consideration - OTA's, training camp practices, Morris' really good plays were largely against 3rd stringers - and deemed Tolzien gives them the best chance to win on Sunday.  

 

And I fail to see any reason the Colts would tell Tolzien he is going to be released.  What would the purpose be?  What happens if you tell him that and Brissett gets hurt?  With 100% certainty, they have not told him that.

[Boiler_Colt]

Consider this too. Lets say Luck is out for at least a month. Brissett eventually jumps Tolzien and plays pretty darn well and maybe wins a game or so. Not only do you have a a good backup option to Luck, but he puts solid film out there for two years down the road where maybe some team views him as a potential starter and wants to trade for him. It's the Osweiler/ Matt Flynn/ AJ McCarren effect. All hypothetical but there's a lot of upside to the Brissett trade.

[crazycolt1]

16 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

I believe this is serious overthinking.  

 

For not one second do I believe they made the decision to cut Morris to avoid any QB controversy.  It is really nothing more than they took everything into consideration - OTA's, training camp practices, Morris' really good plays were largely against 3rd stringers - and deemed Tolzien gives them the best chance to win on Sunday.  

 

And I fail to see any reason the Colts would tell Tolzien he is going to be released.  What would the purpose be?  What happens if you tell him that and Brissett gets hurt?  With 100% certainty, they have not told him that.

I agree with you. I think the odds of the Colts telling Tolzien he is out the door is slim to none.

On the other hand Tolzien himself I am sure can see and understand what is going on.. He will play as best as he can. It's out of his hands at this point as far as what the Colts do with Brissett.

[Superman]

So since I had a soaked rag stuffed down my throat for suggesting that Morris and Brissett were similar QBs, I went back and watched some video on both of them. It's a moot point now -- Brissett is on the team, Morris isn't, but I wanted to make sure I'm not crazy.

 

News flash: I'm not crazy. Brissett and Morris have similar traits and abilities, and some similar deficiencies. They'll both drop their shoulder and elbow and sail a throw here and there, especially on a crossing route; they'll both bend too far at the waist and dirt the ball; they'll both throw off the back foot, make a risky throw into double/triple coverage, take big hits from rushers while throwing, miss a hot receiver, etc. Mechanically, they can be inconsistent in the same ways, and mentally, they'll have some of the same brain farts. 

 

To the positive, they both have a steely mentality in the face of pressure, and they respond in a poised and deliberate manner, as if they've seen it a thousand times before. They can both make elite throws to all levels of the field, testing defenses over the top, along the boundary, on deep digs and outs, up the seam, etc. The arm talent comes with the proper touch to drop balls in between defenders, over the proper shoulder, throw accurate backside fades, etc. 

 

But I never said they were equal. I said I think they're similar, and I stand by that, but Brissett has some traits that Morris does not. One is size. Brissett has two inches and probably 30 pounds on Morris, and he uses it to shrug off rushers and tacklers in the pocket and in the open field in a way Morris can't. Surprisingly, Morris' hands measured half and inch longer than Brissett's, but Brissett has a Drew Brees-level pump fake, with perfect control of the ball, so by watching them, you'd swear Brissett has way bigger and stronger hands. And then the arm, Brissett can drive the ball intermediate and long with zip and power to a degree Morris can't match.

 

Brissett also has really high level pocket presence, including an awareness of the best escape route once the pressure forces him to move, so he's not running around frantically and getting himself into more trouble. This has improved since college and his early playing time as a rookie.

 

Brissett also seems to have improved in his accuracy on intermediate and deep throws. He always had arm strength, but would often overthrow his receivers deep, or put too much air under it and compromise the receiver's position. He seems to have worked on an overstride problem that popped up at times last year, and is throwing from a better platform, especially on predetermined deep patterns. 

 

They both scramble well; Morris is faster in a straight line, but Brissett moves with purpose, strides long, and is effective at making tacklers miss. 

 

They both have way more upside than Tolzien. Tolzien will never be any better than he is right now, and he's nothing special now. Morris has plenty of talent, but all indications are he's lacking behind the scenes, which you can't have from your QB. Reports since last April regarding Brissett are that the Patriots are incredibly impressed with him, from the physical ability and skill to the intangibles, including his grasp of the playbook and concepts of the offense, his preparedness and ability to learn/retain new information, and of course his ability to play well under tough conditions. 

 

There's not a lot to complain about with Brissett, especially considering his upside. I personally think he was overdrafted due to his impressive physical traits (40+ spots ahead of Dak Prescott, for instance, for a QB who wasn't supposed to come anywhere near the field as a rookie), but after spending a year with the Pats and being pressed into service, it's obviously he's had some technical refinement. 

 

It's my sincere hope that he never plays a meaningful down for us, but if he does play, I think he can be a really good backup/spot starter, especially for our vertical offense. I hope they give him a couple series on Sunday, even if Tolzien is playing well. 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

I am not a fan of this trade and I do like Brissett...I was impressed with him last year when Brady was suspended.  I really felt that a draft pick should have accompanied him as he is the backup when Luck returns.....

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

I am not a fan of this trade and I do like Brissett...I was impressed with him last year when Brady was suspended.  I really felt that a draft pick should have accompanied him as he is the backup when Luck returns.....

 

Yeah, I think the deal could be sweeter for the Colts, since Dorsett has a chance to play on a regular basis while Brissett is hopefully glued to the bench. 

 

But I found it interesting that both Ballard and Belichick responded the same way, just opposite, when asked why they made the move. They asked Belichick why he was willing to give up Brissett, who they really liked, and he said 'we wanted Dorsett.' Then Ballard was asked what went into giving up Dorsett, and he said they weren't looking to move him despite getting calls, but they really like Brissett. 

[csmopar]

42 minutes ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

I am not a fan of this trade and I do like Brissett...I was impressed with him last year when Brady was suspended.  I really felt that a draft pick should have accompanied him as he is the backup when Luck returns.....

You are also assuming that Dorsett actually makes it with the Patriots. It's highly possible he rides the bench or is cut if he doesn't start showing up or if he continues this sit on the bench with a muscle strain stuff the rumor mill said he was notorious for

[Roger]

There you go again with that careless us of OR.

 

If Brissett learns the playbook but Luck is not ready to play, the Colts are not likely to start Brissett and cut Tolzien.  That would leave them with no backup.

 

I agree Brissett will likely start if they're happy with him in practice.  I don't agree that Tolzien will be cut as soon as Brissett "learns the playbook".  That leaves the team without a backup.  If Luck is well enough to play, he'll start.  They're not going to go with 2 QBs until Luck is ready to play. So it's not an "or" situation, IMO.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

2 hours ago, Indeee said:

You have to use a little common sense and read between the lines here....

 

Morris was never in the Colts plans regardless of out playing Tolzien. Brissett WILL BE the back up QB for the next 3 years. Tolzien will be released once Luck is healthy or Brissett is comfy in the offense, whichever comes first. Walker was only QB that was eligible for PS.

 

There was no way the Colts we're going to let Morris start while Lucks out to potentially give any controversy to a back up QB battle. If the Colts had traded a 6th for brissett, maybe, but not after trading Dorsett. This is why Morris was waived.

 

On the bright side, I'm almost certain, Tolzien has been told he will be released sooner than later, so while he starts he is basically auditioning for another job somewhere else, so it's imperative scott does well in his dress rehearsal.

 

 

Hum common sense tells me some of what you said is true. 1 apparently Morris wasn't in the teams plans correct. No natter what! 2 If Morris played well a QB controversy I doubt that. They already had one. They just want to win. I think the staff doesn't think highly of Morris! Which is disappointing, because I think like most hes not bad. 3 I HIGHLY DOUBT that Tolzien has been TOLD hes gone, very counter productive, but certainly the trade has put Tolzien on notice.

[jameszeigler834]

2 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

I believe this is serious overthinking.  

 

For not one second do I believe they made the decision to cut Morris to avoid any QB controversy.  It is really nothing more than they took everything into consideration - OTA's, training camp practices, Morris' really good plays were largely against 3rd stringers - and deemed Tolzien gives them the best chance to win on Sunday.  

 

And I fail to see any reason the Colts would tell Tolzien he is going to be released.  What would the purpose be?  What happens if you tell him that and Brissett gets hurt?  With 100% certainty, they have not told him that.

Morris played against some of the steelers starters still outplayed tolzien I believe with tolzien starting  a loss sunday is happening.

[jameszeigler834]

Just now, jameszeigler834 said:

Morris played against some of the steelers starters still outplayed tolzien I believe with tolzien starting  a loss sunday is happening.

I also belive in Morris's case how do they know he wouldn't give us the best chance to win without luck unless they give him a shot to prove it to them I would have kept Morris and told tolzien hit the road he is a bum.

[Blindside]

This team needed a total overhaul. Tolzien and Morris should never have been in the future plans. The argument being made for Morris unfortunately are by fans of a bad football team with sub par to average talent. Neither of those players should have been given any serious consideration. Ballard is doing something that I didnt think would ever happen in Indianapolis. The love affairs are gone. You produce or your gone. As fan's we(I) may need to temper our excitement for players because this is the NFL and we finally have a GM that wants to build something that should have been built years ago.

 

[BR-549]

I gave you a like because there is some info there that is likely.  On the other hand I agree with others that ST has not been and will not be told he is going to be cut until they cut him.

 

Just for fun, if they actually did that with a player how do you think the player would take that news?  I doubt he would be full of enthusiasm and give his best... what would the point be?  He might as well get cut NOW so he can go to another team that may need him... that is how I would look at it at least.  

[TheRustonRifle#7]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

You are also assuming that Dorsett actually makes it with the Patriots. It's highly possible he rides the bench or is cut if he doesn't start showing up or if he continues this sit on the bench with a muscle strain stuff the rumor mill said he was notorious for

And you are assuming that he flops....

[jameszeigler834]

For anyone who doesn't already know Banner didn't go unsigned browns picked him up wish him well and JOJO Natson didn't go unsigned either jets to the PS Good luck to him as well.

[NewColtsFan]

43 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

For anyone who doesn't already know Banner didn't go unsigned browns picked him up wish him well and JOJO Natson didn't go unsigned either jets to the PS Good luck to him as well.

 

Well, DAMN!

 

This is very disappointing to me.     One of the rare times I dsagree with Ballard.

 

Glad Banner was picked-up by someone....   (even if the Browns)    but was hoping he'd clear waivers and we'd pick him up for the PS.

 

I hope this doesn't come back to bite us in the rear end....

 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well, DAMN!

 

This is very disappointing to me.     One of the rare times I dsagree with Ballard.

 

Glad Banner was picked-up by someone....   (even if the Browns)    but was hoping he'd clear waivers and we'd pick him up for the PS.

 

I hope this doesn't come back to bite us in the rear end....

 

Odds are he will be available.  I doubt he makes their 53 .   If he is on their ps, we can sign him if needed

[BProland85]

How did Philip Walker make the practice squad over Stephen Morris? I've just now seen the roster.

[Cynjin]

7 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

How did Philip Walker make the practice squad over Stephen Morris? I've just now seen the roster.

 

According to what I heard, Morris was not eligible.

[richard pallo]

13 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Odds are he will be available.  I doubt he makes their 53 .   If he is on their ps, we can sign him if needed

I thought if a player is picked up on waivers he automatically goes to the active roster.  If he clears waivers he can be signed to the practice squad.  It looks like the Browns made some roster moves to make room for him.

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

I also belive in Morris's case how do they know he wouldn't give us the best chance to win without luck unless they give him a shot to prove it to them I would have kept Morris and told tolzien hit the road he is a bum.

 

 You have an impressive grasp of what should have been done,

 With zero clue of his work ethic, leadership skills, study habits, class room work, off field character.

Etc. Etc. Etc.  Right, that ___ don't matter to you as a GM. 

  A lot of us here liked him better based on his on field work, but apparently No one offered a pick for him based on his efforts. hmmm!  I wish him good luck.

[throwing BBZ]

52 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I thought if a player is picked up on waivers he automatically goes to the active roster.  If he clears waivers he can be signed to the practice squad.  It looks like the Browns made some roster moves to make room for him.

 

 You are correcto, and he has to stay on their active roster for three games.

[throwing BBZ]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I agree with you. I think the odds of the Colts telling Tolzien he is out the door is slim to none.

On the other hand Tolzien himself I am sure can see and understand what is going on.. He will play as best as he can. It's out of his hands at this point as far as what the Colts do with Brissett.

 

 Common sense went out the door here IMO.

 Agree, and i would expect Tolzien to stay on the roster after Luck comes back on, unless we are desperate for his spot because of injuries.

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

And you are assuming that he flops....

More evidence showing his chances of flopping are much greater than succeeding

[jameszeigler834]

1 hour ago, Cynjin said:

 

According to what I heard, Morris was not eligible.

Walker sucked.

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Common sense went out the door here IMO.

 Agree, and i would expect Tolzien to stay on the roster after Luck comes back on, unless we are desperate for his spot because of injuries.

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that they carry three QBs all season. 

[coltsfan77]

Agree Superman. They will carry 3. Even with Luck coming back at some point, he had missed games the last 3 seasons now. Hopefully after he returns the trend will end, but you have to be prepared.

[krunk]

I can tell Brissett has command of the offense when I watch him play. I can feel his leadership. Didnt always feel that with Morris. I can tell within a couple minutes of watching him drive the team down the field hes got the goods you're looking for. I'll say it again, I think this guy is going to develop into a pretty solid QB down the line. I love the upside if that happens because its a good bargaining piece if he decides he wants to move on somewhere else and be a starter in a couple years. We can get some good value out of the deal. Plus with the way Andrew is running into different nagging injuries you never know if a Peyton Manning type situation pops up in a couple years. God forbid if course, but if we wound up in that spot we would have something to fall back on maybe. We could hold on to him and he'd become the full time starter. Just thinking out loud prematurely.

[GoColts8818]

I really don't think Morris is as good as some here think he is.  If he was other teams would have been climbing all over themselves to sign him.  

[TheRustonRifle#7]

11 hours ago, csmopar said:

More evidence showing his chances of flopping are much greater than succeeding

We shall see....

[Coffeedrinker]

18 hours ago, Indeee said:

You have to use a little common sense and read between the lines here....

 

Morris was never in the Colts plans regardless of out playing Tolzien. Brissett WILL BE the back up QB for the next 3 years. Tolzien will be released once Luck is healthy or Brissett is comfy in the offense, whichever comes first. Walker was only QB that was eligible for PS.

 

There was no way the Colts we're going to let Morris start while Lucks out to potentially give any controversy to a back up QB battle. If the Colts had traded a 6th for brissett, maybe, but not after trading Dorsett. This is why Morris was waived.

 

On the bright side, I'm almost certain, Tolzien has been told he will be released sooner than later, so while he starts he is basically auditioning for another job somewhere else, so it's imperative scott does well in his dress rehearsal.

 

 

I don't know for sure but I doubt if any team worries about a "back-up QB controversy".

 

Perhaps Morris is just not as good as many on this forum think.  Superman had the best breakdown of Morris' mechanical faults so I won't repeat them here.  But Morris was not good enough to stick with the Jaguars, he was not good enough to stick with the Eagles and now he's not good enough to stick with the Colts.  I think it's time for the forum to face the fact that Morris is not a very good NFL QB.

 

I don't know if Brisset is the answer at the back-up QB spot but at least it seems like a step in the right direction.  Someone who is young, has some starting experience, and is used to a pro style offense.

[Roger]

I was looking on some Boston sports page for info on Brissett.  Not much found, unfortunately.

 

I did find a story about Dorsett and what someone thinks he might bring.  That story had a statement that I think most on this board would agree with:

 

"Dorsett caught plenty of criticism in Indy for failing to live up to his first-round draft stock, but since-fired general manager Ryan Grigson overstocked his locker room with talented receivers, ignored the offensive line and devoted minimal attention to the backup quarterback position."

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/2017/09/phillip_dorsett_has_skills_to_thrive_in_patriots_offense

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, Roger said:

I was looking on some Boston sports page for info on Brissett.  Not much found, unfortunately.

 

I did find a story about Dorsett and what someone thinks he might bring.  That story had a statement that I think most on this board would agree with:

 

"Dorsett caught plenty of criticism in Indy for failing to live up to his first-round draft stock, but since-fired general manager Ryan Grigson overstocked his locker room with talented receivers, ignored the offensive line and devoted minimal attention to the backup quarterback position."

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/2017/09/phillip_dorsett_has_skills_to_thrive_in_patriots_offense

 

I don't agree with all of that statement. Grigs didn't overstock the talent at WR...and he actually did pay Hasselback a few million to be the backup for a few seasons.

[tikyle]

23 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

I believe this is serious overthinking.  

 

For not one second do I believe they made the decision to cut Morris to avoid any QB controversy.  It is really nothing more than they took everything into consideration - OTA's, training camp practices, Morris' really good plays were largely against 3rd stringers - and deemed Tolzien gives them the best chance to win on Sunday.  

 

And I fail to see any reason the Colts would tell Tolzien he is going to be released.  What would the purpose be?  What happens if you tell him that and Brissett gets hurt?  With 100% certainty, they have not told him that.

 

As I said in the other thread it's all politics.  Morris never got a shot vs 1st teamers.  There was never an open QB competition.  Tolzien was never in jeopardy of losing his #2 spot.  This doesn't sit well with players BTW.  If the backup QB job is not open competition then what else isn't as well?  That's how many players will think when considering playing with/for the Colts.

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

As I said in the other thread it's all politics.  Morris never got a shot vs 1st teamers.  There was never an open QB competition.  Tolzien was never in jeopardy of losing his #2 spot.  This doesn't sit well with players BTW.  If the backup QB job is not open competition then what else isn't as well?  That's how many players will think when considering playing with/for the Colts.

 

I agree they should have given Morris of a chance to win the job, but anyone claiming the Colts don't allow competition up and down the roster just isn't paying attention. We're paying Jeff Locke -- Ballard's first free agent signing -- $1.25m this season to watch at home because a UDFA beat him out. We sent veteran players packing on cut down day up and down the roster. Claiming the Colts don't allow open competition is a joke. 

[crazycolt1]

23 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

As I said in the other thread it's all politics.  Morris never got a shot vs 1st teamers.  There was never an open QB competition.  Tolzien was never in jeopardy of losing his #2 spot.  This doesn't sit well with players BTW.  If the backup QB job is not open competition then what else isn't as well?  That's how many players will think when considering playing with/for the Colts.

So where did you get this that it don't sit well with the other players?

As far as other players playing for the Colts, Morris being cut would not have any effect on them playing for the Colts.

Where did you come up with this train of thought?

 

[Dingus McGirt]

I would imagine most "players" understand there is a huge difference in playing during preseason and at game-speed against all 1's when it counts during a regular contest.  There is no real substitute for real experience, and most young players will attest to how fast the game was for them in their first regular season starts.  I think this is why you/we will see Tolzein starting and being the number two when Andrew first returns as the starter.  I wonder if "politics" was used by tikyle in lieu of another term...

[tikyle]

38 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

So where did you get this that it don't sit well with the other players?

As far as other players playing for the Colts, Morris being cut would not have any effect on them playing for the Colts.

Where did you come up with this train of thought?

 

 

Players want to play at places where best man gets the spot (see Seattle aka the origin of Russell Wilson or even New England where you will be replaced if a young guy out plays a Pro Bowl vet).  You can't say we are about competition and getting better but not even have a true open competition for your backup QB spot.  That is totally fraudulent.