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PI calls and non calls are now reviewable.

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On the surface this looks good. But a lot of small PI calls are not called because they let the players play the game. What is the threshold to overturn a call. I don’t want it overturned if it’s something minor they have been letting go all game.

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As long as they are not increasing the number of challenges, I have zero problem with this. I'm assuming it's the booth late game like others. Wonder if the booth has the authority to review the entire game and ring down whenever they want. 

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No increase in the number of challenges.  Replay official can buzz in for review in NY by Al Riveron in the last 2 minutes.

 

They couldn't leave owners meeting without addressing the Saints game in some way (nor table it until May).  This is their compromise, and 1 year trial.

 

https://www.profootballweekly.com/2019/03/26/nfl-expands-instant-replay-to-include-pass-interference-calls-and-non-calls/a3n17u0/

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Strategically, it will be interesting.  Yes, there are phantom calls, but on the flip side, PI could also be called on so many more plays than it is.  Final two minutes of the half - throw it 50 yards down the field repeatedly.  They have to review every play.  Good chance you'll get something.

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Both calls and non-calls will be reviewable. They will be initiated by a coach's challenge until the final two minutes of a half. It is a seismic change, one that will surely have unforeseen consequences. For instance, grabbing on a Hail Mary will now be reviewable. It could become a nuisance, but it is a good thing that truly game-changing penalties will now be subject to review.

 

SOURCE: Albert Breer on Twitter

Mar 26, 2019, 6:55 PM

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One place you'll probably see this a lot - refs take the out and call holding on many plays that should actually be PI.  Now I suppose you can challenge it and have it changed to a spot foul.  

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7 minutes ago, #12. said:

Strategically, it will be interesting.  Yes, there are phantom calls, but on the flip side, PI could also be called on so many more plays than it is.  Final two minutes of the half - throw it 50 yards down the field repeatedly.  They have to review every play.  Good chance you'll get something.

I would not like that happening.

 

The entire rule could make things just as bad as missing a call.

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1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

I would not like that happening.

 

The entire rule could make things just as bad as missing a call.

 

The more I consider the possibilities, I'm not too fond of it.

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I don’t believe them.

 

Also what if a call is overturned but the refs have been letting it go all game. 

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4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t believe them.

 

Also what if a call is overturned but the refs have been letting it go all game. 

 

Riveron will not overturn an on field call unless it is an 'egregious' missed call.  The Saints / Rams game was, but I would bet Riveron would rule helmet to helmet on defenseless receiver there. That was factual and was not subjective in any way.

 

 

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I am all for the idea of challenging a PI call to overrule it if you think it was called in jest. It is a judgment call but heck, let them review it and see how it goes.

 

I am not a big fan of the concept of challenging that a play should be a penalty when it was not called. Yes I know the Rams-Saints game is etched in everyone's mind. So I get it.

 

But I hate the idea that all these times that you see a WR get up in a critical situation asking for a flag and getting no call, we can start seeing flags thrown saying "we should have gotten that call".

 

Even so, I'm cool to deal w it for a year to see how it goes.

 

What I hope is the case though is I hope for non-calls you have to say "I want to challenge that that play should have been defensive pass interference" and that when it goes under review the officials are "only" ruling on that. Not saying "oh well it wasn't PI but it was holding". or in the Saints-Rams game saying "hmm I won't call PI but I will call a personal foul for helmet to helmet".

 

In my humble opinion if you're going to open yourself up to ruling that non-calls should be calls then it should be specific to whatever one call you are trying to get implemented and not the scope of all calls available for a penalty on that one play in question.

 

I also ask this genuinely....is the end game here just PI?

 

Or does this open a can of worms down the line where it expands to holding. Every big run you could have a challenge that there is holding and chances are holding could be called on any play as it is.

 

Will be fun to see how this plays out this season.

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49 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

or in the Saints-Rams game saying "hmm I won't call PI but I will call a personal foul for helmet to helmet".

 

Sorry, that won't go away.  Any rules with increased player safety in mind gets voted in by competition committee and the owners.  Being able to enforce a safety violation rule missed in real time during the game play won't be overlooked. Holding might, but not personal fouls involving players in defenseless positions.

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2 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Sorry, that won't go away.  Anyt rules with increased player safety in mind gets voted in by competition committee and the owners.  Being able to enforce a safety violation rule missed in real time during the game play won't be overlooked. Holding might, but not personal fouls involving players in defenseless positions.

 

Agreed. But I don't like it.

 

Unless you allow a coach to challenge a missed call where a QB gets hit low or hit in the head that is missed.

 

Or challenge a missed horse collar. Or a missed cut back block that is now illegal. Or a million other player safety issues. All I am saying is if they are just allowing missed PI calls to be challenged thats cool. But I don't think it should cascade to them then looking at other infractions on the same play in question while reviewing the missed PI call if so.

 

Because to my knowledge (and I could be wrong), the only non-call that is part of this new rule is PI. So I hope they legit stick to the concept that "the only thing that was not called and can be reviewed and then called is PI"

 

We shall see.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t believe them.

 

Also what if a call is overturned but the refs have been letting it go all game. 

Hey.... the guys in the review booth are pros...what could possibly go wrong?

 

 

goodfellas.jpg

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55 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Agreed. But I don't like it.

 

Unless you allow a coach to challenge a missed call where a QB gets hit low or hit in the head that is missed.

 

Or challenge a missed horse collar. Or a missed cut back block that is now illegal. Or a million other player safety issues. All I am saying is if they are just allowing missed PI calls to be challenged thats cool. But I don't think it should cascade to them then looking at other infractions on the same play in question while reviewing the missed PI call if so.

 

Because to my knowledge (and I could be wrong), the only non-call that is part of this new rule is PI. So I hope they legit stick to the concept that "the only thing that was not called and can be reviewed and then called is PI"

 

We shall see.

I think each team should be given like 1 call/no call penalty challenge a game where they can challenge any penalty not just PI. If it’s successful then give them an extra challenge but cap it at 2

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About time.  I am in agreement with this minor, but major changev to reviewable calls!  Kudos to the NFL!

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I think they should have just done it for the last 5 minutes of either half to not slow down the game. The principle is fine but I think it will become a big nuisance and they will go back to selective review in some form after 1 year.

 

This also puts a "big brother watching over your shoulder" factor for younger refs who may get whistle happy to err on the side of caution and throw a flag and not let them play. 20-25 flags a game, that is what fans need to get ready for.

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9 hours ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Agreed. But I don't like it.

 

Unless you allow a coach to challenge a missed call where a QB gets hit low or hit in the head that is missed. 

 

Or challenge a missed horse collar. Or a missed cut back block that is now illegal. Or a million other player safety issues.

 

The coach or replay official cannot challenge any of that if it wasn't flagged.  What is (not) called on the field stands, correct or not.  But the league can/will still issue players fines for those infractions even if it wasn't called in the game.

 

Quote

All I am saying is if they are just allowing missed PI calls to be challenged thats cool.

 

That's all (plus the previous changeable issues) the "Coaches" can challenge. But I've heard Dean Blandino essentially say that once a 'play' is legally challenged, the NY officials can and do review every aspect of that play. Start to finish.  But remember, their goal is to uphold and confirm the field call,  they really only want to overturn obvious errors.  Where 'judgement' comes into play, the standard to overturn goes up (harder).  Subjective- less likely to be changed.  Objective/obvious- high chance to be overturned.

 

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But I don't think it should cascade to them then looking at other infractions on the same play in question while reviewing the missed PI call if so.

 

Officials enforce the rules of the game.  Whether in real time, or in replay. Whether on field or in a replay center.  It's what they are commissioned to do.  They are not overlooking obvious infractions that were missed in real time, especially if it violates a safety rule.

 

Quote

Because to my knowledge (and I could be wrong), the only non-call that is part of this new rule is PI. So I hope they legit stick to the concept that "the only thing that was not called and can be reviewed and then called is PI"

 

It is either P.I. calls or non-calls. That is the only thing a coach can challenge.  Not illegal contact, not illegal cut blocks, horsecollars, etc...

But Game Day Central replay officials focus on that, but are not (or previously weren't) necessarily restricted to that.

 

Quote

 

We shall see.

 

That's what the 1 year trial is for, determine if it works and made permanent or tweaked for another 1 year test.

 

9 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Hey.... the guys in the review booth are pros...what could possibly go wrong?

 

 

goodfellas.jpg

 

Yeah, it's only the Senior Vice President of Officiating of the National Football League and his staff up there...

 

 

8 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

I think each team should be given like 1 call/no call penalty challenge a game where they can challenge any penalty not just PI. If it’s successful then give them an extra challenge but cap it at 2

 

No, keep it part of the two already given (3 if the 2 used were overturned) and only P.I. calls/non-calls.

 

While solving an issue, this is going to create some too.  Example-

 

Receiver is called for offensive P.I. on a reception.  Offensive team coach throws red flag challenging O.P.I.  In replay, it shows the receiver did push off at the last second to get some separation from the defender tightly covering him.  However, replay also shows the defender a little earlier did make notable illegal contact beyond 5 yards past the L.O.S. when receiver was trying (direction/speed change) to get separation in his route, thus allowing defender to stay with and cover the receiver down the field.

 

How is it ruled?  Uphold only the one penalty and ignore the other that might have even created the conditions for the first penalty? I'm interested in the final language of the rule.

 

Hmmmm...

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11 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Both calls and non-calls will be reviewable. They will be initiated by a coach's challenge until the final two minutes of a half. It is a seismic change, one that will surely have unforeseen consequences. For instance, grabbing on a Hail Mary will now be reviewable. It could become a nuisance, but it is a good thing that truly game-changing penalties will now be subject to review.

 

SOURCE: Albert Breer on Twitter

Mar 26, 2019, 6:55 PM

 

So many situations can arise from this.  I'm interested in final language.  It solves an issue, but how many does it create?  Time will tell.

 

*** Threads merged ***

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10 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

The 1 vote against it was from the Rams

 

Actually, it was Mike Brown of the Bengals.

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I don't think this is a bad idea.  It's likely going to have to be something pretty bad in order to change the call.  

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I read a lot of opinions on this subject, and I see a great deal of selfish interest. It ranges from, "My team got screwed on that play", "My fantasy player got screwed on that play"....to "This is ruining the game", and "Let the players play".

 

Why have rules? Is it to remind players of how the game is played? Is it to keep it fair? I have used this analogy many times throughout my life, and it still holds true. Rules are increased because of the 5%. Doors area locked because of the 5%. Curfews, restrictions, ordinances, and the like are because of the 5%. What I am speaking of... is that most people in life, sports, and a great many other things, act fairly, act with respect, and so on. But there is a small percentage of humans who seek an advantage over others, no matter the ethics/morality/rules etc. for their own gain. This exists in sports as well.

 

Remember the Polian/Patriots holding issue?  This was about Pats players intentionally cheating on the rules to the point where Bill brought it up to the competition committee. Funny how he gets the blame, but it would not have been re-emphasized if the committee had not agreed with him. Yet, I fully believe that some coaches encourage players to cheat to a great degree. BTW, one of the definitions of "cheat" is : to violate rules dishonestly. I guess if a coach was to say publicly that they tell their players to hold on every play, that that would not be cheating....because they were honest about it. No coach is going to admit to that. 

 

So when we throw out the phrase, "Let the players play", we are unfortunately agreeing to "Let most of the players play the game the way it was designed, and let lesser percentage take advantage of that because they know fans/providers don't want the game interrupted too much". 

 

Frankly, I'm tired of the 5%. They make my insurance higher, I have to keep my doors locked every second, and yes, they cause these increases in the rules of the NFL by cheating. I would love to watch a game and see the rules enforced because of things like incidental contact. Like a player flying through the air at an opponent on a ST play only to have the opponent turn at the last second and he ends up hitting the player in the numbers, instead of partially turned forward. Or a well timed pass deflection that the player just gets there a little too early and gets pass interference. 

 

Remember when Rodney Harrison actually pulled Marvin Harrison down to the ground in one of the most obvious cheating moves ever witnessed, and it didn't get a call? He was underneath Marvin and pulled him down by the jersey, and the hot dog vendor could see it from across the stadium while selling a hot dog. The only thing that made me smile is that he hurt his shoulder while doing it. Oh yes, and Marvin made the catch. 

 

I would say that I am damned tired of the increases in rules, and it does indeed slow the game, but as long as the 5% are still being coached to get away with cheating as much as possible, then this will continue. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, #12. said:

Strategically, it will be interesting.  Yes, there are phantom calls, but on the flip side, PI could also be called on so many more plays than it is.  Final two minutes of the half - throw it 50 yards down the field repeatedly.  They have to review every play.  Good chance you'll get something.

You just nailed how most of next season will pay out.

 

Hopefully booth doesn't look to call every ticky-tack PI.

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11 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

You just nailed how most of next season will pay out.

 

Hopefully booth doesn't look to call every ticky-tack PI.

 

The at the field replay official will not interrupt the game and Al Riveron in New York about every 9 route thrown after the 2 minute warning.  trust me.  If there's P.I. that's blatant, refs will flag it on field.  If it is less blatant, and not called, it wouldn't be serious enough to overturn on replay.

 

Forget what 'they' say.  No use of technology is going to allow them to get them all right.  What it will do is allow them to get the blatant and obvious missed calls corrected, not every single call.

 

They just patched a hole, that's all.

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2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Actually, it was Mike Brown of the Bengals.

Yeah it was the Bengals you are correct. I am for this rule. Interference is interference so it needs to be called if a WR gets interfered with. Also now if people believe games are rigged it will be tougher for REFS to control a game now. 

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5 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

The at the field replay official will not interrupt the game and Al Riveron in New York about every 9 route thrown after the 2 minute warning.  trust me.  If there's P.I. that's blatant, refs will flag it on field.  If it is less blatant, and not called, it wouldn't be serious enough to overturn on replay.

 

Forget what 'they' say.  No use of technology is going to allow them to get them all right.  What it will do is allow them to get the blatant and obvious missed calls corrected, not every single call.

 

They just patched a hole, that's all.

This ^

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DB's always grab an arm or hand of the WR when the ball's on the way, the WR fights through it. That's seldom if ever called, it's just part of the give and take of the DB/WR game, just as the push off is for the WR. But now every big play that's broken up or a big disputed catch will be reviewed and over turned. Why do we even have refs, lets just make it run by machines. Bad calls are going to happen, that's how it always was and should be..

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On 3/27/2019 at 2:27 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

The at the field replay official will not interrupt the game and Al Riveron in New York about every 9 route thrown after the 2 minute warning.  trust me. 

 

Well, to note, Dean Blandino is somewhat wary of the on field replay booth official interrupting too much/too often.

 

23 hours ago, ColtJax said:

DB's always grab an arm or hand of the WR when the ball's on the way, the WR fights through it. That's seldom if ever called, it's just part of the give and take of the DB/WR game, just as the push off is for the WR.

 

I trust Al Riveron not to overturn on that.  The standard should be only obvious errors, not the could be but not absolutely clear cases where

 

Quote

But now every big play that's broken up or a big disputed catch will be reviewed and over turned.

 

I hope not.  teams only get 2 (3 if correct on those 2) challenges until the 2 minute warning. If replay booth in last 2 minutes is abused, then maybe should allow a coaches challenge on that only in last 2 minutes, provided they have a challenge and a timeout available still.

 

Quote

Why do we even have refs, lets just make it run by machines. Bad calls are going to happen, that's how it always was and should be..

 

Slippery slope folks like you, me, and other fans and those in the NFL trying to prevent that and keep the human element involved for the most part.

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Going back to replay in general - I don't like the 2 minute rule.  What about the last 2 minutes makes it naturally more or less important than a play at 2:02 on the clock?  Or in the first 2 minutes of the game.

 

The rules just feel arbitrary to me.

 

Also - why can't a holding penalty be just as game changing?  A bad call on holding can change everything, yet we are going to focus on pass interference mostly due to one really bad no call on not only PI but an illegal hit.

 

The solution here is to make the refs better.  Discipline this team of refs, hold them accountable, and move on.

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1 hour ago, gspdx said:

Going back to replay in general - I don't like the 2 minute rule.  What about the last 2 minutes makes it naturally more or less important than a play at 2:02 on the clock?  Or in the first 2 minutes of the game.

 

I think they feel challenges could be thrown to ruin the 2 minute hurry up drill teams use to create mismatches and tire up a defense to get points. Like faking a  injury has before {cough}

 

1 hour ago, gspdx said:

The rules just feel arbitrary to me.

 

Also - why can't a holding penalty be just as game changing?  A bad call on holding can change everything, yet we are going to focus on pass interference mostly due to one really bad no call on not only PI but an illegal hit.

 

They do not want subjective calls besides an obvious/egregious PI call/non-call to be reviewed/corrected.  Allowing more is that 'slippery slope' the League fears.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, gspdx said:

The solution here is to make the refs better.  Discipline this team of refs, hold them accountable, and move on.

 

For the most part, they do.

From former on field official Jerry Frump-

 

    "The NFL has a very sophisticated evaluation system. Every single play is graded. Every week, every official’s performance on every play is reviewed by league staff members with on-field officiating experience. A live evaluation is being done by somebody on-site, and the report from the observer is taken into account along with the film study grades.

 

    Just like the players shoot for the postseason, everybody is looking for ways to improve themselves, because the grading system determines who goes and works the postseason games.

 

    The Officiating Department’s weekly evaluation process is thorough. Blandino, Senior Director of Officiating Al Riveron and the Art McNally GameDay Central crew work with eight officiating supervisors to review every play from each of the seven officiating positions: referee, umpire, head linesman, line judge, field judge, side judge and back judge. The eight supervisors — former officials with decades of experience — identify successes, areas for improvement and points to emphasize."

 

With all that, and a majority full time officials, it's worse than ever I can recall.  :-(

 

If they continue with post season All Star teams of officials, they need to have/announce them before week 14 and then rearrange crews into the All Star teams and let them get 2 or 3 games in regular season under their belts before playoff time.

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On 3/27/2019 at 9:09 AM, lollygagger8 said:

Yaaaaay, slow the game down some more. 

 

giphy.gif

Yeah, I’d rather make the game last a little longer than get screwed on a bad PI call or no call. 

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9 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Yeah, I’d rather make the game last a little longer than get screwed on a bad PI call or no call. 

 

They need better refs. 

 

(or ones that actually aren't blind or paid off to look the other way - Saints/Rams game) 

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16 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I think they feel challenges could be thrown to ruin the 2 minute hurry up drill teams use to create mismatches and tire up a defense to get points. Like faking a  injury has before {cough}

 

 

They do not want subjective calls besides an obvious/egregious PI call/non-call to be reviewed/corrected.  Allowing more is that 'slippery slope' the League fears.

 

 

Yes - I get it, but they are already heading down the slippery slope.  They have continued to adjust the replay system due to "imperfections" and that will continue since it will never be perfect.  And regardless of their reasoning bad calls at any time in a game can completely change the game. 

 

This to me feels like a knee jerk reaction and will lead to other actions to "improve" the system.  And down the slope we go.

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A rule for a few senarios.. I highly doubt anyone will challenge a 15 yard PI with 4:00 mins to go in the 1st QT.

 

This is weird to me.. oh well. Shall see what happens

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