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Landon Collins status/rumors (merge)

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2 hours ago, jskinnz said:

Why exactly are the Giants allowing a universally loved, young lockerroom leader to walk out the door?

 

Because he can't cover. It's simple to me. Collins isn't good in coverage, and he wants to be the highest paid safety in the NFL. 

 

The rumor is that they could have traded Collins for a first at the deadline last year, but said no. Let's say that's an exaggeration (although Amari Cooper went for a first, so it's not entirely unrealistic), and they could have gotten back a second in 2019, they probably should have made that move if they didn't value Collins enough to either tag him or sign him long term this offseason. 

 

But I don't agree with the overly simplistic and increasingly loud narrative, which is basically 'he's a Pro Bowler and former All Pro, and he's only 26, Gettleman is an *!!!' 

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I understand the argument against Collins. He certainly has his limitations which I think were exposed in a defense void of talent like NY. However, I think him coming to INDY with the pieces we already have make alot of sense and will improve his play

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5 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I understand the argument against Collins. He certainly has his limitations which I think were exposed in a defense void of talent like NY. However, I think him coming to INDY with the pieces we already have make alot of sense and will improve his play

This.

Frankly, Collins had too much on his plate in N.Y.  He second guessed himself a lot because he knew the guys around him was bad.

On this defense, the secondary is pretty disciplined.  And with Hooker back there, he can be let loose to make plays, and not worry about whether or not this CB, or that safety , can handle his job.

Collins play's press coverage against TE's very well.  But he's not a CB, he doesn't belong 1-1 with top WR's.  He's play's in the box, and either plays the run, or cover's TE's.  And he does both very well.

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15 minutes ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Collins play's press coverage against TE's very well.  But he's not a CB, he doesn't belong 1-1 with top WR's.  He's play's in the box, and either plays the run, or cover's TE's.  And he does both very well.

 

I don't think he's good against good TEs, especially in man coverage.

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30 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I understand the argument against Collins. He certainly has his limitations which I think were exposed in a defense void of talent like NY. However, I think him coming to INDY with the pieces we already have make alot of sense and will improve his play

 

He's 25.  He's a significant improvement over what you have at the position.  You didn't have to spend a draft pick on him.  You didn't have to spend time developing him.  You have the potential to get a plug and play impact player, and if you get one, only one, free agency is a success.

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52 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Because he can't cover. It's simple to me. Collins isn't good in coverage, and he wants to be the highest paid safety in the NFL. 

 

The rumor is that they could have traded Collins for a first at the deadline last year, but said no. Let's say that's an exaggeration (although Amari Cooper went for a first, so it's not entirely unrealistic), and they could have gotten back a second in 2019, they probably should have made that move if they didn't value Collins enough to either tag him or sign him long term this offseason. 

 

But I don't agree with the overly simplistic and increasingly loud narrative, which is basically 'he's a Pro Bowler and former All Pro, and he's only 26, Gettleman is an *!!!' 

 

That was his knock coming out of college and has not changed much at all.

 

The chorus to sign the guy has been so loud that I thought what I heard today from Weis and Papa was interesting.  And further, isn't this the exact thing that Ballard tries had to not do - pay premium coin for less than premium talent.  

 

Who knows what will happen?  If they sign him, I've seen enough from football people who think it can work.  But will not phase, disappoint or shock me if they pass.

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Frank and Eberflus saw him for years in the NFC East.  They'll either say hell yeah, or no, he can't cover and is overrated.  Ballard won't have to go far to get an answer.

 

Listening to Holder, I got the sense he had perhaps spoken to Eberflus about Collins in this defense.  

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I don't know man. I like Collins a lot, but he's likely gonna be the highest paid safety in the game. Considering all the other solid safety options out there, I feel like the Colts can get better value with someone else.

 

And I know Indy has the most cap space, but Ballard said it himself, that money runs out quickly.

 

Regardless, I'll trust the FO with how they decide to play this out. 

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3 minutes ago, #12. said:

Frank and Eberflus saw him for years in the NFC East.  They'll either say hell yeah, or no, he can't cover and is overrated.  Ballard won't have to go far to get an answer.

 

Zach Ertz almost always kills the Giants. The Cowboys don't have any TEs, but even old Jason Witten had a big game against them in the 2017 opener.

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16 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

That was his knock coming out of college and has not changed much at all.

 

The chorus to sign the guy has been so loud that I thought what I heard today from Weis and Papa was interesting.  And further, isn't this the exact thing that Ballard tries had to not do - pay premium coin for less than premium talent.  

 

Who knows what will happen?  If they sign him, I've seen enough from football people who think it can work.  But will not phase, disappoint or shock me if they pass.

 

Yeah, I'm neutral on Collins. He's a good player, but I definitely don't think he's a can't miss addition for our defense.

 

On one hand, if we're going to zone the middle most of the time and play some Cover 3 / Cover 6, he'd be good, and right at home. But when it's 3rd and 4 and we want to play man, but have to cover Travis Kelce or Hunter Henry (both on the schedule next year), he'll be a liability.

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I guess what should be asked is......would he make the team that much better?

 

he checks almost all the boxes.....leadership, locker room, production, youth, etc.........yes coverage is his weakness, but would he be needed to cover that often? especially with Hooker roaming the back end. 

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3 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

he checks almost all the boxes.....leadership, locker room, production, youth, etc.........yes coverage is his weakness, but would he be needed to cover that often?

 

The primary responsibility for any player in the secondary is coverage. If you're not asking your strong safety to cover, he's basically a glorified Sam backer.

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3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Zach Ertz almost always kills the Giants. The Cowboys don't have any TEs, but even old Jason Witten had a big game against them in the 2017 opener.

 

Yes, Frank and Eberflus will have an excellent idea on him as a player, especially Frank.  

 

 

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Would Ha Ha Clinton Dix  not be a better fit if they brought another FA safety in to go along with Geathers?  Which I'm not too sure we'd bring another big dollar safety in if we resigned Geathers. But assuming we did why would Ha Ha Clinton Dix not be a better fit?  I do know that he's almost exclusively been in Man Coverage schemes since college so maybe that's the counter argument.  I don't know.

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8 minutes ago, krunk said:

Would Ha Ha Clinton Dix  not be a better fit if they brought another FA safety in to go along with Geathers?  Which I'm not too sure we'd bring another big dollar safety in if we resigned Geathers. But assuming we did why would Ha Ha Clinton Dix not be a better fit?  I do know that he's almost exclusively been in Man Coverage schemes since college so maybe that's the counter argument.  I don't know.

I think that's the big problem.  Gaethers hasn't signed yet.  And now Collins is free.  He might regret not resigning right away in this new safety market.  I believe there is a recent article in the Star where the author argues that Colts are one of the few teams where Collins would be the perfect fit due to our reliance on strong safety play as compared to most other teams.  His coverage skills would not be as important in our scheme.  Collins is by far the better player for us.  This shouldn't be hard to convince him we are the perfect for him.  As always it comes down to money.  The fact that we are reportedly going strong after Williams makes me believe Collins is another player we might go hard after.  

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8 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think that's the big problem.  Gaethers hasn't signed yet.  And now Collins is free.  He might regret not resigning right away in this new safety market.  I believe there is a recent article in the Star where the author argues that Colts are one of the few teams where Collins would be the perfect fit due to our reliance on strong safety play as compared to most other teams.  His coverage skills would not be as important in our scheme.  Collins is by far the better player for us.  This shouldn't be hard to convince him we are the perfect for him.  As always it comes down to money.  The fact that we are reportedly going strong after Williams makes me believe Collins is another player we might go hard after.  

Man I ain't ask you about no Collins!  I asked about Ha Ha Clinton Dix.  LOL

If coverage wasn't an issue then people wouldn't keep saying stuff like "Geathers can't cover".

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Just now, krunk said:

If coverage wasn't an issue then people wouldn't keep saying stuff like "Geathers can't cover".

 

Excellent point. Coverage is a problem for Geathers, but we don't care about coverage if we're talking about Collins?

 

Muy interesante. 

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Here is some stats I got from an article today discussing Collins, and his struggles in coverage:

 

"When targeted in space in 2018, opposing receivers caught 33 of 43 passes thrown his way for 397 yards, three touchdowns and no interceptions, resulting in a 127.8 passer rating against, a clear departure from the 2016 (70.1) and 2017 (94.8) seasons. According to NFL Next Gen Stats’ Coverage Success Rate metric, Collins ranked 81st out of 90 defensive backs who were the nearest defender on at least 50 targets, allowing a 71 percent completion rate compared to 61 and 62 percent in each of the two years prior."

 

He is a tough evaluation for GM's, because he brings so much else to your team. And having two high quality playmakers like him and Leonard flying around in space is a very exciting proposition. But he is looking to be the top paid safety in the league, despite his tape in the last 4 years showing he is not the best safety in the NFL. 

 

I probably wouldn't sign him for $13 million a year. Hard pass unfortunately, the are alot of other good options in the FA and also the draft this year at safety.

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1 hour ago, krunk said:

Would Ha Ha Clinton Dix  not be a better fit if they brought another FA safety in to go along with Geathers?  Which I'm not too sure we'd bring another big dollar safety in if we resigned Geathers. But assuming we did why would Ha Ha Clinton Dix not be a better fit?  I do know that he's almost exclusively been in Man Coverage schemes since college so maybe that's the counter argument.  I don't know.

 

HHCD has had his own issues. 

 

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/grading-the-pack-haha-clinton-dix-blake-martinez-bonus-film-review-506

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I see no comments about his injury, is he medically sound to play? Shoulders can be tricky.

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6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Because he can't cover. It's simple to me. Collins isn't good in coverage, and he wants to be the highest paid safety in the NFL. 

 

The rumor is that they could have traded Collins for a first at the deadline last year, but said no. Let's say that's an exaggeration (although Amari Cooper went for a first, so it's not entirely unrealistic), and they could have gotten back a second in 2019, they probably should have made that move if they didn't value Collins enough to either tag him or sign him long term this offseason. 

 

But I don't agree with the overly simplistic and increasingly loud narrative, which is basically 'he's a Pro Bowler and former All Pro, and he's only 26, Gettleman is an *!!!' 

 

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12 minutes ago, FalseStart said:

 

 

Sounds like they actually did a good job on him that night.  He had his third lowest YPC avg. of the season, had only his 8th highest yards total of the season and the Giants won the game.  He caught some balls, but they generally kept things in front of them for not many yards.  Those plays apparently didn't make the highlights. 

 

Pretty much sounds like Ballard's and Eberflus' general idea about things.

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2 hours ago, Finball said:

That PFF grade was still pretty good. My suspicion is Clinton Dix would be much better in Coverage than Collins. Clinton Dix has been in man coverage schemes ever since college. My unknown with him is would he be an effective zone player? I already know hes physical and could play in the box. You can blitz him and other stuff, but i just dont know if hes a zone guy.

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There are a lot of safeties our there in FA. It could drive the price down.

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Not happening. Ballard isn’t paying Collins 12mil a year, exspecially with  quality FA safeties on the market and a deep draft class of them. Move on. 

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4 hours ago, krunk said:

Would Ha Ha Clinton Dix  not be a better fit if they brought another FA safety in to go along with Geathers?  Which I'm not too sure we'd bring another big dollar safety in if we resigned Geathers. But assuming we did why would Ha Ha Clinton Dix not be a better fit?  I do know that he's almost exclusively been in Man Coverage schemes since college so maybe that's the counter argument.  I don't know.

 

My comfort level with HHCD is pretty low.   Green Bay, the team that drafted him and knows him best trades him away.     And Washington, who I think gave up a 3 or a 4 for him isn’t keeping him either.    

 

And ive seen stories suggesting his pmaybisnt all that good.    Feels like he’s nit the player he was coming out of college.

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So there is two questions...does he fit our scheme...because the guy is talented there is no doubt about that but he also can be exposed in certain instances...and how much does he want. I trust Ballard to decide if we would get pro bowl Collins or what we saw last year. Luckily safeties don’t typically command top dollar.

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3 hours ago, FalseStart said:

 

 

2 hours ago, #12. said:

 

Sounds like they actually did a good job on him that night.  He had his third lowest YPC avg. of the season, had only his 8th highest yards total of the season and the Giants won the game.  He caught some balls, but they generally kept things in front of them for not many yards.  Those plays apparently didn't make the highlights. 

 

Pretty much sounds like Ballard's and Eberflus' general idea about things.

 

Ryan-Reynolds-Confused-Eye-Scan-Gif.gif

 

Kittle caught nine of ten passes thrown his way, for 83 yards. That's "a good job"? Would anyone say Geathers did a good job if any TE put up those numbers against us? And then, watching the clip video, Kittle basically cooked Collins several times in man coverage. 

 

And this is not a new idea. Collins struggled in coverage coming out of Alabama, he struggled in coverage when he got to NY, he had a couple seasons where he did a decent job in certain situations, but he's never been a good cover man. It shouldn't even be up for debate. Collins isn't good in coverage, it's an established fact.

 

The only thing worth considering is whether you can fit him into our defense, and if so, what kind of improvement he'd bring. Especially in comparison to other options who are actually decent in coverage, or better. HHCD is better in coverage, so is Adrian Phillips. Amos is a FS so he's probably not on the radar, but he's much better in coverage. And there are safeties in the draft that already cover better than Collins, and will come at a third of the cost, or less. 

 

Again, I'm neutral on Collins. It seems like people just want him because he's the big name, and are willing to disregard his actual play. Like Ballard says, if you add a guy, you better have a plan for him, and that's definitely true here. Because if you intend to play man coverage on critical downs (they've said as much), and you intend to use Collins in man coverage (how do you not use your strong safety in that capacity?), it's gonna be a problem, especially against good TEs and slot receivers.

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

My comfort level with HHCD is pretty low.   Green Bay, the team that drafted him and knows him best trades him away.     And Washington, who I think gave up a 3 or a 4 for him isn’t keeping him either.    

 

And ive seen stories suggesting his pmaybisnt all that good.    Feels like he’s nit the player he was coming out of college.

 

Ugh!    Sigh!    I don't know where my fingers went?    Like my hands were one key off all over the keyboard! 

 

WHAT?!     THE?!    *****?!?!?

 

 

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I know Collins is where all the hype is but wouldn't Adrian Amos be a better fit than Collins, not even mention cheaper

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There are so many safeties available. I  doubt Collins will be a colt. We need safety help in a big way.  

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

Kittle caught nine of ten passes thrown his way, for 83 yards. That's "a good job"

 

Have you looked at what he did against everyone else?  Yeah, I'd say they contained him like we contained Elliot - about as well as you can.  

 

I think you're taking it to the extreme here.  I'm not buying that he's as horrible in coverage as you seem to be painting it in this thread, and even if he has his deficiencies, I'm fairly certain, in this scheme, you can play winning football with him.  In this scheme, he can be an impact player.  Of course it doesn't matter what I think.

 

On his coverage skills - I was just watching an analyst talk about him.  He said the thing people don't take into account about his coverage skills is that he disrupts and blows up so much of the layup, dink and dunk stuff.  He gets teams off schedule.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, FalseStart said:

 

Dang if you read the comments on the YouTube e page of this video everyone basically agrees he's overrated and that they are happy they are letting him walk.  They think he's over hyped

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10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Ugh!    Sigh!    I don't know where my fingers went?    Like my hands were one key off all over the keyboard! 

 

WHAT?!     THE?!    *****?!?!?

 

 

Early onset of Schrodinger’s Fingers... you are neither typing nor not typing...ha

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16 hours ago, krunk said:

That PFF grade was still pretty good. My suspicion is Clinton Dix would be much better in Coverage than Collins. Clinton Dix has been in man coverage schemes ever since college. My unknown with him is would he be an effective zone player? I already know hes physical and could play in the box. You can blitz him and other stuff, but i just dont know if hes a zone guy.

 

It was but declined heavily afterwards. GB isn't and wasn't pure man coverage team and safeties have a lot of zone responsibilites on man coverage defenses. Especially free safeties were HHCD played mostly. He can play physical but got soft recently. Along with missed tackles and weird coverage busts, he's probably not what we're looking for.

 

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18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

My comfort level with HHCD is pretty low.   Green Bay, the team that drafted him and knows him best trades him away.     And Washington, who I think gave up a 3 or a 4 for him isn’t keeping him either.    

 

And ive seen stories suggesting his pmaybisnt all that good.    Feels like he’s nit the player he was coming out of college.

Green Bay knew they couldn't sign him with all the money they paid for Mr. Rodgers. 

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17 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

Ryan-Reynolds-Confused-Eye-Scan-Gif.gif

 

Kittle caught nine of ten passes thrown his way, for 83 yards. That's "a good job"? Would anyone say Geathers did a good job if any TE put up those numbers against us? And then, watching the clip video, Kittle basically cooked Collins several times in man coverage. 

 

And this is not a new idea. Collins struggled in coverage coming out of Alabama, he struggled in coverage when he got to NY, he had a couple seasons where he did a decent job in certain situations, but he's never been a good cover man. It shouldn't even be up for debate. Collins isn't good in coverage, it's an established fact.

 

The only thing worth considering is whether you can fit him into our defense, and if so, what kind of improvement he'd bring. Especially in comparison to other options who are actually decent in coverage, or better. HHCD is better in coverage, so is Adrian Phillips. Amos is a FS so he's probably not on the radar, but he's much better in coverage. And there are safeties in the draft that already cover better than Collins, and will come at a third of the cost, or less. 

 

Again, I'm neutral on Collins. It seems like people just want him because he's the big name, and are willing to disregard his actual play. Like Ballard says, if you add a guy, you better have a plan for him, and that's definitely true here. Because if you intend to play man coverage on critical downs (they've said as much), and you intend to use Collins in man coverage (how do you not use your strong safety in that capacity?), it's gonna be a problem, especially against good TEs and slot receivers.

Yes.  I have a funny feeling Eberflus would be really happy with 9 catches for 83 yards.  His entire mantra is keep everything in front of you, and tackle well.  Sounds to me like that is what happened.  Anyone with 9 catches, and averages about 9 yards/catch is really low.  Especially Kittle.

But also, The biggest thing is, we need a key player for our pass rush.  IF (big if here) we can get on or two good pass rushers, that fit Eberflus' scheme, then Collins/Hooker combo is perfect.  QB's would be forced to throw quicker, and Collins could then use his athleticism and size to his advantage. The Giants were the 2nd worst team in the NFL in sacks last year. Meaning the DB's had to play coverage forever. No help from the front 7.  Even though we could use a premiere pass rusher, we were not nearly as bad off as the Giants. 

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Does anyone think Turay could become a really good pass rusher. He was only a rookie last year. Do you think he has the ability to break out? 

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14 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Does anyone think Turay could become a really good pass rusher. He was only a rookie last year. Do you think he has the ability to break out? 

Not until he's able to turn speed into power.

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18 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Does anyone think Turay could become a really good pass rusher. He was only a rookie last year. Do you think he has the ability to break out? 

Yes...    he has the ability to break out.   But it often takes more time than fans want.   In an interview he gave to Colts.com at the Combine, Ballard said pass rushers often take as long as four years to reach their potential.   But I expect improvement from Turay this year.   How much is the question and I don’t have the answer.   

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