What Ballard has done that both Grigs and Polian couldn't

[CR91]

I honestly don't quite get how in two years, Ballard has done what polian and grigs couldnt do in a combined 10 years. Looking at the olinemen taken or signed by polian and grigs since 2008. Yes im sure I missed someone so go ahead and fill in the list.

 

Mike Pollack

Steven Justice

Jamey Richard

Anthony Castonzo

Ben Ijaiana

Jacques Mcclendon

Justin Anderson

Uldrick John

Jeff Linkinbach

Joe Reitz

Khald Holmes

Hugh Thornton

Samson Satatle

Mike Mcglynn

Winston Justice

Gosder Cherlious

Jack Mewhort

Denzelle Goode

Ryan Kelly

Leraven Clark

Joe Haeg

 

Only a hand full of those guys panned out and only for maybe a couple of years. Now Ballard hasn't nailed every olinemen pick cough Banner cough austin howard cough cough, but the fact that we go from a turnstile to arguably one of the best lines in football is mind bobbling. Of course getting nelson has proven to be a steal, but with how glowinski and Smith are playing even Slauson before he got hurt, makes you think why this took 10 flipping years. Is it talent evaluation? Proper coaching? scheme fit? Whatever it is, this is a long time coming.  

 

[#12.]

To be fair, 2/5 of the line is a Polian/Grigson line.

[Cynjin]

Cue DougDew discrediting anything positive Ballard in 10, 9, 8,.......

[CR91]

1 minute ago, #12. said:

To be fair, 2/5 of the line is a Polian/Grigson line.

 

And I gave them credit for that.

[Yoshinator]

Even as a kid, I was never much of a Polian fan. At that time, I was still smart enough to realize that Manning was releasing the ball quickly, and that the defenses never held up in the playoffs. I just didn't understand the main reasons. Ballard is so much better than Grigson it's not even close. His first two drafts are better than all five of Grigsons put together. He also is better in the draft than Polian as well. Polian was an average drafter at best. He just managed to get some big hits that inflated people's opinion of him. Ballard probably has hit on over half his picks in a decent way, and he's very solid in FA as well, while keeping our cap in great shape. Best GM in Indy history if he continues anywhere close to this IMO.

[Nesjan3]

Honestly i think Polian gets more credit than he deserves for the 2000s. Without Manning we would have been a losing team most of those years,

[braveheartcolt]

14 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

And I gave them credit for that.

.......apart from sanitation, medicine, roads, irrigation etc., what have Polian and Grigson given us? Sorry, the Romans. I meant the Romans.....

[csmopar]

19 minutes ago, CR91 said:

I honestly don't quite get how in two years, Ballard has done what polian and grigs couldnt do in a combined 10 years. Looking at the olinemen taken or signed by polian and grigs since 2008. Yes im sure I missed someone so go ahead and fill in the list.

 

Mike Pollack

Steven Justice

Jamey Richard

Anthony Castonzo

Ben Ijaiana

Jacques Mcclendon

Justin Anderson

Uldrick John

Jeff Linkinbach

Joe Reitz

Khald Holmes

Hugh Thornton

Samson Satatle

Mike Mcglynn

Winston Justice

Gosder Cherlious

Jack Mewhort

Denzelle Goode

Ryan Kelly

Leraven Clark

Joe Haeg

 

Only a hand full of those guys panned out and only for maybe a couple of years. Now Ballard hasn't nailed every olinemen pick cough Banner cough austin howard cough cough, but the fact that we go from a turnstile to arguably one of the best lines in football is mind bobbling. Of course getting nelson has proven to be a steal, but with how glowinski and Smith are playing even Slauson before he got hurt, makes you think why this took 10 flipping years. Is it talent evaluation? Proper coaching? scheme fit? Whatever it is, this is a long time coming.  

 

while I don't disagree, prior to 2008, lets look at what Polian did do, Glenn, Saturday, Diem, heck even Scott were long time anchors on a solid OL. The fall of the OL didn't really start until Glenn's retirement in 2007

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Well Polian fans can say that Ballard hasn't added the pass rushers like Freeney or Mathis. Or a safety like Bob Sanders. Or weapons for his QB like Reggie, Clark, Stokley to go along with Marvin. Or RB's like Edge or Addai or even Dominick Rhodes. And won the most games ever in a decade.

 

Griggs fans can say he Drafted Luck, which of course was a no brainer. But he gave Luck weapons by resigning Reggie, drafted TY, Fleener, Allen and won 36 games in first 3 seasons including 3 playoff games. And they might say Griggs never had a losing season as 8-8 were his worst records.

[CR91]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

while I don't disagree, prior to 2008, lets look at what Polian did do, Glenn, Saturday, Diem, heck even Scott were long time anchors on a solid OL. The fall of the OL didn't really start until Glenn's retirement in 2007

 

Which is why I cited 2008 which was when the oline started to become a problem. 

[Fluke_33]

5 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

.......apart from sanitation, medicine, roads, irrigation etc., what have Polian and Grigson given us? Sorry, the Romans. I meant the Romans.....

That     was     awesome   !

[#12.]

The funny thing about Polian is, at the time, I wasn't a big fan, but in this era, his method would probably work well.  If you have an offense that can go up and down the field and a few game changing pass rushers, it's all you need.  Look at the top teams in 2018.  Due to the rule changes, it's Polian ball.  

[braveheartcolt]

Nice to be optimistic, but we can't go feasting on 3 game win streak. If we go 14-0 next season, perhaps we can get giddy....

[dodsworth]

The difference is that Polian/Grigson

didn't give two squats about linemen.

Ballard does.

[csmopar]

17 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Which is why I cited 2008 which was when the oline started to become a problem. 

I know, im just saying that to be fair, we need to look at the entire picture, not just the last 3 years of the Polian regime, which was pretty much when Chris took over for Bill making the calls.

[chad72]

There is always going to be previous regime leftovers - Grigson had Mathis, Bethea, McAfee, Vinatieri for starters, and Ballard has some, and so on...it is just how life in the NFL works.

 

The Cowboys for instance - what was once an elite OL now has leaks due to injuries and FA departures. Same with Polian, like someone else said, the issues started once Tarik Glenn called it quits, till then he had Saturday, Lilja, Scott, Diem and Glenn rolling as rock solid OL players for us. So, it is not just getting that first combination of starters right, it is getting the right OL coaches and replenishing the talent over time when injuries and FA departures happen that a GM has to plan for.

 

In other words, it is valid to give credit for what Ballard has done now, but the complete endorsement will have to wait till Ballard has about 4-5 years under his belt to see if his OL game plan endures injuries and FA departures. 

[LockeDown]

Polian had Dungy wanting defense and Manning wanting offense.  Ballard wants linemen...offense and defense

[The Fish]

I'm just here to name drop King Dunlap.

[CR91]

23 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I know, im just saying that to be fair, we need to look at the entire picture, not just the last 3 years of the Polian regime, which was pretty much when Chris took over for Bill making the calls.

 

Fair enough

[Coffeedrinker]

The Colts line and draft picks did not start to regress because Glenn retired, they started to regress when Mudd retired.  Mudd knew exactly what he wanted at each position and Polian pretty much let Mudd pick his lineman.  Not that he was perfect, with finding draft gems like Scott and Diem and Demulling and Lilja, there were also some misses with guys like Sciullo, Freitas, Toudouze and Gandy.

 

And let's face it, CB has gotten lucky that Smith has been able to play RT, without that the line (and by extension, Ballard) would not look as good.  That being said, I am also a firm believer in the adage that luck is where hard work and and opportunity meet.  So, I also think the system CB has instilled is part of the reason for the luck as well... When you have a coach that knows what he wants at the positions and a GM that is good at breaking down the requirements so the scouts can properly see and grade those requirements, and put a premium on non measurables items like work ethic, leadership, football intelligence, then the chances of finding a college guard who come in at tackle and play well increases.

[dodsworth]

32 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Polian had Dungy wanting defense and Manning wanting offense.  Ballard wants linemen...offense and defense

Stout lines win titles. Just ask Reich and his Bills losing in the SB

against the Cowboys, Giants and Redskins.

[alawai]

9 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The Colts line and draft picks did not start to regress because Glenn retired, they started to regress when Mudd retired.  Mudd knew exactly what he wanted at each position and Polian pretty much let Mudd pick his lineman.  Not that he was perfect, with finding draft gems like Scott and Diem and Demulling and Lilja, there were also some misses with guys like Sciullo, Freitas, Toudouze and Gandy.

 

And let's face it, CB has gotten lucky that Smith has been able to play RT, without that the line (and by extension, Ballard) would not look as good.  That being said, I am also a firm believer in the adage that luck is where hard work and and opportunity meet.  So, I also think the system CB has instilled is part of the reason for the luck as well... When you have a coach that knows what he wants at the positions and a GM that is good at breaking down the requirements so the scouts can properly see and grade those requirements, and put a premium on non measurables items like work ethic, leadership, football intelligence, then the chances of finding a college guard who come in at tackle and play well increases.

Thanks Coffeedrinker.  I’ve been telling people it was Coach Mudd that made the line.

[ColtsBlueFL]

55 minutes ago, #12. said:

The funny thing about Polian is, at the time, I wasn't a big fan, but in this era, his method would probably work well.  If you have an offense that can go up and down the field and a few game changing pass rushers, it's all you need.  Look at the top teams in 2018.  Due to the rule changes, it's Polian ball.  

 

Remember, Polian knew he had Manning, and he knew the rules.  So it was them two who got this whole ‘passing thing’ started.  It went rolling after the mugging receivers took in the playoffs in 2003.  Polian fought loudly for a point of emphasis on the rules already on the books that was violated (the now famous ‘illegal contact’) yet ignored by the officials of that time.

 

Teams screamed Polian single handily created a rule just for Peyton and the Colts (not true, it was already on the books, just never previously enforced). Fans of other teams say it was because the sissy, soft Colts receivers couldn't handle to press/man pressure (mugging) delivered by the Pats defense.  So his plan was already working back then, and I agree it got better as safety rules were implemented over ensuing the years.

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, dodsworth said:

The difference is that Polian/Grigson

didn't give two squats about linemen.

Ballard does.

 

I don't know about Polian...but that is not true about Grigs. He already had his LT (like Ballard does)....so he invested in other positons...that typically don't require 1st round picks (G, C, RT). To do this, he spent on established talent in FA (Satele, Thomas, Cherilus) and targeted Gs on day two fo the draft (Thornton, Mewhort).

 

He also evetually used a 1st, 3rd and 5th round pick in one single draft on a C, OT and G.

 

His initial strategy was not a bad strategy...as other teams have been able to build a good OL this way. But Grigs was just a terrible talent evaluator...and a bit unlucky as well (at least when it came to Mewhort staying healthy). AND he had OCs that loved 7-step drops. 

 

Had he, for example, signed Mitchell Schwartz at RT (the same year he drafted Kelly)...the Colts OL woes would have looked a lot different.

 

I feel dirty having defended Grigs...but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't care about the OL...he just wasn't good at his job.

[shasta519]

Kudos to Ballard...for accomplishing what he obviously set out to accomplish.

 

But let's be fair here a bit. I don't recall Grigs or Polian having the #6 pick to use on an OL player, let alone a G. (Not to mention the opportunity to trade back for three 2nd round picks...which provided more opportunity to draft OL players early).

 

Grigs had to use his top pick on a QB and Polian used his highest pick (#11) on a HOF DE.

 

And Braden Smith was drafted higher any other OL player not named AC or Kelly.

 

Now if Grigs would have drafted Mitchell Schwartz or Cordy Glenn instead of Fleener...things could have been a lot different. But to also be fair, I am not sure how realistic that would have been at that time with the Fleener and Luck connection. 

 

As for Ballard, having AC and Ryan Kelly in place is a pretty good start for any GM for building an OL.

 

And I also think a big difference (at least between Ballard and Grigs) is Frank Reich vs Chud. The Colts passing Y/A was almost a yard more in Luck's last two full seasons (2014 and 2016). The 7-step drops got Luck killed...and Brissett last season...and really hampered an already questionable OL during those times.

 

But I am really glad that Ballard is having this success...and now we can get back to not drafting OL players early.

 

 

[Four2itus]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The Colts line and draft picks did not start to regress because Glenn retired, they started to regress when Mudd retired.  Mudd knew exactly what he wanted at each position and Polian pretty much let Mudd pick his lineman.  Not that he was perfect, with finding draft gems like Scott and Diem and Demulling and Lilja, there were also some misses with guys like Sciullo, Freitas, Toudouze and Gandy.

 

And let's face it, CB has gotten lucky that Smith has been able to play RT, without that the line (and by extension, Ballard) would not look as good.  That being said, I am also a firm believer in the adage that luck is where hard work and and opportunity meet.  So, I also think the system CB has instilled is part of the reason for the luck as well... When you have a coach that knows what he wants at the positions and a GM that is good at breaking down the requirements so the scouts can properly see and grade those requirements, and put a premium on non measurables items like work ethic, leadership, football intelligence, then the chances of finding a college guard who come in at tackle and play well increases.

Mudd was a gem. It appears that Dave DeGuglielmo is the best line coach we have had not named Mudd. Time will tell. 

[Trueman]

For me, if my first selection ever is a bonafide franchise QB , my first goal is to protect him , my second goal is to build a defense , and my final goal is to get quality weapons. 

Grigson went in reverse of this thinking and was always playing catch-up ; trying to band-aid things with free agency. 

That draft he heavily invested in the line , was his last , and that's by no coincidence. 
 

48 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

Had he, for example, signed Mitchell Schwartz at RT (the same year he drafted Kelly)...the Colts OL woes would have looked a lot different.

Or had he just drafted him in 2012 instead of a soft TE in the pursuit of weapons for Luck.

Edit: just read your second post. 

[Superman]

Good points that Ballard inherited some good players, but this line was awful last year. He deserves a lot of credit for the improvement in 2018 alone.

 

So does Reich, and Luck, and the extra emphasis the entire team has placed on pass protection. We have two guys at the top who are fully committed to pass protection, and it's shown very dramatically already in just half a season.

[Coffeedrinker]

37 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

Kudos to Ballard...for accomplishing what he obviously set out to accomplish.

 

But let's be fair here a bit. I don't recall Grigs or Polian having the #6 pick to use on an OL player, let alone a G. (Not to mention the opportunity to trade back for three 2nd round picks...which provided more opportunity to draft OL players early).

 

Grigs had to use his top pick on a QB and Polian used his highest pick (#11) on a HOF DE.

 

 

 

You are forgetting when the Colts drafted The Edge with #4 and quite possibly could have traded that #4 pick to NO, for just about their entire 1999 draft and a 1st and 3rd round in 2000.

 

Of course there was no way Edge would have lasted until pick 12

[Trueman]

Also,  Polian drafted Peyton. He had two picks higher than the 11th overall used on Freeney. 

 

[MPStack]

4 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

Honestly i think Polian gets more credit than he deserves for the 2000s. Without Manning we would have been a losing team most of those years,

I agree, and I’ll add that Dungy gets to much credit for the Colts success. 

[WoolMagnet]

4 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

Honestly i think Polian gets more credit than he deserves for the 2000s. Without Manning we would have been a losing team most of those years,

The play of Manning and an "easy" division , imo, made the Colts look better than they were.

  We saw this play out in the playoffs when Manning (no player could) was unable to overcome our weaknesses.... mainly on D in those years.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, shastamasta said:

 

Now if Grigs would have drafted Mitchell Schwartz or Cordy Glenn instead of Fleener...things could have been a lot different.

 

 

I was here clamoring for getting Glenn and I was not a happy camper with the Fleener pick from day one, for what it is worth. We thought we could get our version of Dallas Clark but the funny part is the best years of first round TEs like Olsen and Ebron happened with a second team.  

 

Gronk was drafted in the top of Round 2, Jimmy Graham in Round 3 and my theory is unless you are a TE that can do both (blocking and receiving) at a high level, you are not worthy of a Round 1 selection, IMO. Dallas Clark worked because we had Peyton and as soon as he had to block more with Orlovsky/Curtis Painter around, he became disposable. 

 

Plus, Bruce Arians' offenses did not feature their TEs nearly as much either. 

[Coffeedrinker]

10 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I was here clamoring for getting Glenn and I was not a happy camper with the Fleener pick from day one, for what it is worth. We thought we could get our version of Dallas Clark but the funny part is the best years of first round TEs like Olsen and Ebron happened with a second team.  

 

Gronk was drafted in the top of Round 2 and my theory is unless you are a TE that can do both (blocking and receiving) at a high level, you are not worthy of a Round 1 section, IMO. Dallas Clark worked because we had Peyton and as soon as he had to block more with Orlovsky/Curtis Painter around, he became disposable. 

The TE I wanted when the Colts drafted Dallas Clark went in the 3rd round... Jason Witten.

[PuntersArePeopleToo]

I do want to point out Chris Polian was our GM starting in 2008 I believe. I get that Bill still had say, but it seems that the major difference happened during that time

[shasta519]

18 minutes ago, Trueman said:

For me, if my first selection ever is a bonafide franchise QB , my first goal is to protect him , my second goal is to build a defense , and my final goal is to get quality weapons. 

Grigson went in reverse of this thinking and was always playing catch-up ; trying to band-aid things with free agency. 

That draft he heavily invested in the line , was his last , and that's by no coincidence. 
 

Or had he just drafted him in 2012 instead of a soft TE in the pursuit of weapons for Luck.

Edit: just read your second post. 

 

That would have definitely been the proper course. And if I recall, many were calling for just that (or actually Cordy Glenn) with that next pick after the next day...in addition to Alshon Jeffrey and Janoris Jenkins. I truly believe that if the Colts crowd-sourced their 1st round picks over the Grigs years...this team would be pretty damn good right now.  

 

But in regards to Glenn or Schwartz, I do think it's hard to know how realistic that was though. Grigs was a 1st-year GM who just drafted a franchise QB at #1...and that QB's great friend and #1 target from college is available (who was also graded around that area as well). Not to give Grigs too much of a pass...but I wonder if there was pressure from Irsay to take Fleener. Not to mention wanting to help their new franchise QB acclimate to the NFL. (That doesn't excuse the Allen pick though...when OL players were available...I just think there was some context here.)

 

Looking  back on it, I have no real issue with how Grigs tried to build the OL at first...he just had a combination of poor talent evaluation and poor luck. It's not like he consistenly passed on good OL players in the draft.

 

2012 - Did screw up here....passing on guys like Schwartz, Glenn and Brooks in favor of Fleener and Allen. But there's probably some context here. And let's not act like everybody wasn't praising this draft class. To be fair, Ballard didn't draft OL in his first year either.

 

2013 - If he doesn't have draft Werner...it would have been Rhodes or Hopkins...which would have been a great pick. He didn't have a 2nd round pick after the Davis trade. And his 3rd round pick went to an OG (Thornton).

 

2014 - Doesn't have a 1st round pick after the disastrous TRich trade...but wouldn't have missed out on any great OL prospects due to that anyways. He then uses his 2nd round pick on an OG (Mewhort).

 

2015 - Screwed up with the Dorsett pick...but if he doesn't pick Dorsett...it's likely Landon Collins...which is a great pick. No excuse for that 2nd round pick though...traded out with Marpet available.

 

2016 - Draft Kelly in the 1st round, Clark in the 3rd round and Haeg in the 5th round. Should have probably used the 2nd round pick on Whitehair...but still devoted a lot of draft capital to the OL.

 

I think if we set aside 2012, it's hard to fault him for the OL strategy from 2013-14. He either didn't really have the opportunity to draft OL...or it wouldn't have made sense given the talent available. And where he did have opportunities...he did draft OL. Not to mention he had invested in OL FAs as well, which negated the need to draft them. None of that really worked out...due to a mix of poor evaluation and injuries...but he did mostly what he could (outside of 2012) during the first few years.

 

To be honest, my biggest gripe with him (and this team) would be the change in approach to OL in FA. From 2014-16, the biggest FA signing was Phil Costa...who immediately retired. If he would have kept spending on OL, instead of spending it on guys like Jones, Cole and AJ...things would have been much different. 

 

I think Ballard has benefitted from opportunity and coaching (which to his credit, he hired)...and he's just a better GM than Grigs was. But I don't think it's completely fair to Grigs and Ballard in a vacuum.

[LockeDown]

31 minutes ago, MPStack said:

I agree, and I’ll add that Dungy gets to much credit for the Colts success. 

I disagree.  Our run defense was terrible and he calmed them down, went back to fundamentals, practiced tackling, made some changes and we went on a defensive tear all the way to the Super Bowl.  That wAs all Dungy.

[shasta519]

37 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

You are forgetting when the Colts drafted The Edge with #4 and quite possibly could have traded that #4 pick to NO, for just about their entire 1999 draft and a 1st and 3rd round in 2000.

 

Of course there was no way Edge would have lasted until pick 12

 

Thanks...I totally forget about that situation. I was really more looking at Grigs. 

 

IMO it's tough to compare something from nearly two decades ago anyways...but the NFL was a RB league then. And the Colts needed one...after Faulk had sort of forced his way out. There happened to be two potential HOF RBs coming out that year.

 

It was just a different situation...where RBs were looked at in close value to QBs. It would have been akin to Luck retiring in March and the Colts still trading out to #6 (which they likely don't).

 

But damn...in hindsight, Polian should have been all over that deal.

[shasta519]

38 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I was here clamoring for getting Glenn and I was not a happy camper with the Fleener pick from day one, for what it is worth. We thought we could get our version of Dallas Clark but the funny part is the best years of first round TEs like Olsen and Ebron happened with a second team.  

 

Gronk was drafted in the top of Round 2, Jimmy Graham in Round 3 and my theory is unless you are a TE that can do both (blocking and receiving) at a high level, you are not worthy of a Round 1 selection, IMO. Dallas Clark worked because we had Peyton and as soon as he had to block more with Orlovsky/Curtis Painter around, he became disposable. 

 

Plus, Bruce Arians' offenses did not feature their TEs nearly as much either. 

 

Agree. I hated double-dipping on TE with two valuable day two picks (in a weak TE group) on a rebuilding team. 

 

In a way, the TE position is a microcosm of the big difference between Grigs and Ballard, when it comes to talent evaluation. 

 

 

 

[shasta519]

52 minutes ago, Trueman said:

Also,  Polian drafted Peyton. He had two picks higher than the 11th overall used on Freeney. 

 

 

That's true...I totally disregarded that. But in the situation of Manning and Luck, the GM didn't really have a choice.

 

The Edge pick is a bit different...however...it's not that much different when you consider how the league was at that time and the importance of the RB position.

 

I think timing and opportunity certainly matter...and often times they are out of one's control. This is true much moreso with Grigs than Polian...but it's not like the Polian era OLs were bad early on (if I recall).