What's the logic behind Pagano staying?/ Irsay's Decision (Merge)

[MB-ColtsFan]

16 hours ago, WoolMagnet said:

I'm on the fence with Pags.  

However, when you remove emotion, it makes some sense.

chuck did just have us in AFC champ a couple years ago.  The new GM will need time to evaluate.  Adding a new coaching staff when Luck cant practice till at least training camp is asking alot of him.  

There isn't a real obvious choice out there for a r placement in my mind at the moment.

 This will be an attractive opportunity.  We'll have choices.  Timing with coaches is as tricky as drafts.  Some years are better than others.  This year there dont seem to be the obvious coaching candidates as other years. Also, SOME CONTINUITY is good.

who knows, i'd just rather go this route that change for change sake.

changing next year, if pags doesn't produce has merit.

or maybe Jim has a plan already. 

I think your comment regarding Luck learning a new system is the key here.

You can bring in a new HC, but he won't be able to change the OC or offensive in any major way since Luck can't practice in the new system until at least training camp. 

Besides, I think we pretty much all agree our problems are mostly on the defensive side of the ball.  That's supposed to be Chuck's strong suit.  Let's get him some toys to play with in the draft and see what he can do.

[MB-ColtsFan]

18 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Good players want a coach that will help them be successful. It's not whether the coach is being "easy" or "hard", it's doing whatever it takes. Obviously, that is lacking in Pagano. Some coaches don't have a clue what that entails. But, I've found no one can reach their potential without having a great coach - in business or sports.

 

Amazing how often conventional wisdom is wrong, and not very wise at all.

Just curious as to why you think "that is lacking in Pagano"?

[gacoop1]

Is Bellicheck a friendly coach? All he's doing is going to the Super Bowl every other year.

[throwing BBZ]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

There are indeed some who say that....   the more measured response.    And I always appreciate that.

 

But the vast majority are pretty ugly and pretty up front about it.    They're not shy with their views.

 

This fan base pulls no punches....      I get that this is the way most fans are.....

 

I just don't happen to enjoy it.     It's the unpleasant part of being a fan for me....

 

Oh well.....    I'm a big boy,  I'll get past it....    I have been for here for my five years....

 

 

 I do not believe it is more than roughly 25% who rant the hate chuck diatribe.
 And that also does not mean they are not informed well enough to have a worthwhile opinion.
  Does Chuck run a well oiled machine so far?
 Lets get him 2 solid guards, a couple really good running backs, a NT, at least 5 good linebackers,

 an excellent FS, and see how he looks. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:55 AM, Green_Ranger said:

Wouldn't the new GM have the final word in Pagano's future? Doesn't the GM decide who our coach will be?

 

There could be many reasons deciding how things go, but consider this as well-

 

If a GM brings in a new coach, then that new coach has assistants plus OC's / DC's they want to bring in with them.  Irsay just got Chudzinski and Philbin (both ex Head Coaches) on board recently,but new coach might not want them part of his staff...

 

I doubt Irsay wants to completely wipe out all of the contracts he's written to these guys and start fresh.  Grigson already has pocketed his chunk of guaranteed cash on his way out the door. If Pagano is let go now, there goes another $13.5 million out of Irsay's bank account.  Follow up with Chud, Philbin, Monachino... on down the line.  Money out the door, and untested/unproven replacements coming on in collecting paychecks too.  It is just all too easy for us to spend Jim's money.

 

 

[Bluefire4]

6 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Dont the 49'ers have to wait until the SB ends before they can make him an offer? Therefore is this not 100% speculation? Even by the NFLs part? Don't you think, Shanahan would be absolutely, 100% INSANE to choose sanfran over Indy? 

I'm just going by what Irsay said and what I am hearing. Irsay said Pagano would be back and San Fran is having a 2nd interview with Shanahan on Friday and the other two coaches they considered have backed out.

[Superman]

6 hours ago, DougDew said:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Irsay's exact words "Chuck is our coach GOING INTO 2017"?.

 

We're into 2017 now, but that doesn't mean he'll be the coach next season, and Irsay could be looking.

 

But he may have said other comments more directly placing Pagano as next season's coach.

 

He said: "For 2017, Chuck is our coach." Not a lot of wiggle room there.

 

http://host.madison.com/sports/football/jim-irsay-confirms-chuck-pagano-will-coach-indianapolis-colts-in/article_1590c558-0fda-5ef6-9d7e-cdc5339dd2e8.html

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He said: "For 2017, Chuck is our coach." Not a lot of wiggle room there.

 

http://host.madison.com/sports/football/jim-irsay-confirms-chuck-pagano-will-coach-indianapolis-colts-in/article_1590c558-0fda-5ef6-9d7e-cdc5339dd2e8.html

Yes.  I read more since then and its pretty clear that's his intent.

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, CoachLite said:

 

If Jim Irsay puts this condition on any incoming GM, that may preclude any truly competent GM from accepting the Colts GM position - open mind or not. It seems that there isn't "logic" in the recent decisions, only reactions to gut feelings. "People aren't logical, they're psychological". That is an extremely dangerous condition for any organization. There needs to be a validated "rubric" for evaluating GMs, coaches, staff and players. With as many misses as the Colts have had in this regard - GM, coaches and players - I suspect either the rubric is faulty or, more probably, non-existent and the decisions are made "by the seat of the pants". That opens advice only to confirmation bias - a death knell for any organization.

 

The GM is going to get almost a free year.

 

He's not going to get blamed for the record if it's bad.      That will go to Pagano who will get fired.

 

And if the year is good,  the GM will get some love for over-seeing the good year and he might even decide to keep Pagano.        Or, if the year is good,  but not GOOD ENOUGH,   then the GM can let Pagano go and bring in his own guy.

 

Detroit just did this a year ago.     Hired a GM and they gave Caldwell a year to show what he could do.    Most thought the GM would let Caldwell at the end of this past season,  but he surprised people and kept him.   Good for the GM and good for Caldwell.        This can be done.

 

[BOTT]

If Chuck wants to save his own behind he should promote Philbin to OC or have Philbin design a playbook and give it to Chud.

[themacs@feathersnfins.net]

Coach Is Well Liked By His Players And Just As Respected By The Coaches & Management

[JColts72]

8 minutes ago, themacs@feathersnfins.net said:

Coach Is Well Liked By His Players And Just As Respected By The Coaches & Management

But coach does not have team prepared and often come out very flat to play catch up.

[#12.]

Irsay can say Chuck is coming back all he wants, but it still likely depends on the GM hire.  For example, say someone out of Seattle's system is brought in.  For one year, why would you spend all your cap space and draft picks on players to fit Chuck's defense if that is not the system the new GM plans to run long term?  It makes no sense.

 

[CoachLite]

9 hours ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Just curious as to why you think "that is lacking in Pagano"?

 

I watch the Colts. I watch most other teams, too. Our coaching would have to dramatically improve not to be terrible. The players are running around playing x's and o's, but completely devoid of any coherent strategy. What's worse, it seems Pagano has no faith in his players - at all.

[themacs@feathersnfins.net]

13 hours ago, CoachLite said:

 

I watch the Colts. I watch most other teams, too. Our coaching would have to dramatically improve not to be terrible. The players are running around playing x's and o's, but completely devoid of any coherent strategy. What's worse, it seems Pagano has no faith in his players - at all.

Coaches Don`t Play The Game... Just Get Players To Play.. And Speaking Of Playing Players.. Now How Well They Play, Is Not Up To The Coaches But Up To Their Ability. Some Are Blessed With Ability & Can Play...

[CoachLite]

1 hour ago, themacs@feathersnfins.net said:

Coaches Don`t Play The Game... Just Get Players To Play.. And Speaking Of Playing Players.. Now How Well They Play, Is Not Up To The Coaches But Up To Their Ability. Some Are Blessed With Ability & Can Play...

 

A lot of people feel that way. I disagree.

[jet1968]

I am in the belief that Grigson was the majority of the problem.

 

Pretty hard to bake a cake when the shopper isnt buying the ingredients.

#1 problem with the Colts in my opinion is the lack of talent on the defense.

[tfunky14]

On 1/23/2017 at 10:43 AM, gacoop1 said:

Is Bellicheck a friendly coach? All he's doing is going to the Super Bowl every other year.

Bellicheck is also well liked by his players, 

[themacs@feathersnfins.net]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:53 AM, tfunky14 said:

Bellicheck is also well liked by his players, 

Don`t Think So ... Players Are Scared To Death Of Him.. ~Cept for Tom Terrific ...Cant Stood Him.. Cheaters

[CF4L]

On 1/24/2017 at 11:53 AM, tfunky14 said:

Bellicheck is also well liked by his players, 

 

 

Not really he's respected because of his accomplishments but that's about as far as it goes.

[CanuckColt]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:50 AM, Green_Ranger said:

For weeks there were reports that Jim Irsay valued GM Ryan Grigson over Pagano. For weeks I was led on to believe that if anyone were to be fired it would of been Pagano. There were reports that Jim Irsay didn't want to fire GM Ryan Grigson and hand over the keys to Jon Gruden, but he would have clearly fired Pagano for Gruden in a heartbeat if he was willing to work with GM Ryan Grigson.

 

So now Grigson gets the axe and Irsay claims that Pagano will be our coach for the 2017 season. Irsay also stated he will be hiring a new GM who will come in and evaluate the team from top to bottom.

 

So what if the new GM doesn't want Pagano? Doesn't he have the right to fire him?

 

I don't like Pagano at all and I really hope if Irsay is going to make a change he would fire Pagano as well. We need an upgrade at the coaching position. I don't believe in Pagano and as long as he's here the Colts will never win anything above a AFC South Title.

 

I'm praying Pagano is gone within a week or two of a new GM being hired.

Yeah, Chuck is such an average-ish mediocre coach...the Colts can easily do better.

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

 If you look at Grigson’s draft record, he drafted only one 3-4 OLB who actually played that position in college, Trevor Bates, in the 7th Round of the 2016 draft. Bates was cut and immediately signed by the Patriots. Also, Grigson drafted an NFL low 4 defensive backs. Yes, that includes both cornerbacks and safeties.

 

I posted this is another thread, but think it fits better here. How was Pagano ever going to succeed with that? I mean jeeze. 

[bap1331]

i dont think people understand. If it was that easy and they truly thought they could find a better coach than Pagano, they would have done it in a snap. The situation is there are no coaching candidates that meet their needs at the moment. If we take whatever, then we gotta be stuck with that guy another 2-3 years to give him an opportunity.

 

Why not just try Pagano one last time without Grigson breathing over his back and if it doesnt work out, you change coaches games into the season or after.

 

We could very well have good choices after this season with Sean Payton or more.

[VocableLoki]

50 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

 If you look at Grigson’s draft record, he drafted only one 3-4 OLB who actually played that position in college, Trevor Bates, in the 7th Round of the 2016 draft. Bates was cut and immediately signed by the Patriots. Also, Grigson drafted an NFL low 4 defensive backs. Yes, that includes both cornerbacks and safeties.

 

I posted this is another thread, but think it fits better here. How was Pagano ever going to succeed with that? I mean jeeze. 

That is insane, surprised it isn't brought up more often.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

14 minutes ago, VocableLoki said:

That is insane, surprised it isn't brought up more often.

It is insane. And a good reason why us fans can already be excited about Ballard. Also shows what I said awhile ago, you can't cook with no ingredients. 

[southwest1]

On January 23, 2017 at 4:46 AM, HungarianColtsFan said:

 

I haven't read all the comments here, and I'm sure this has been already posted, but my take is:

 

It is easier to claim someone to be fired than finding the right replacement. According to latest news we have been trying to get Sean Payton for 2 years now, without any result. I think if there was a good chance for trading for Payton successfully, Pagano was also gone along with Grigson. IMH Grigson & Pagano received extension last year only because there wasn't any serviceable replacement, so Irsay kept them and did efforts to make those 2 working along. I think Grigson was fired for Irsay finding a better candidate (either  Jimmy Raye III or other one, I'm surprised he didn't announced it already on Saturday,  seems like hunt isn't done yet but nearing end, and he didn't want to keep Grigson in further limbo).  

 

As soon as Irsay finds a new HC candidate who he believes being an upgrade over Pagano, Chuck will be gone too. I really like Chuck, but this is a business, and he failed in many ways (just think of our D or playcalling).

 

Irsay's silence after end of the regular season spoke for itself.

Hey there HCF, 

 

I always read your posts even though I don't always respond. Yep, Pagano won't be here longer than this yr I think. Jimmy just waiting for the right guy to go after like you say. I don't hate Chuck. He's just taken us about as far as his skill set can go at the NFL level. 

[southwest1]

On January 23, 2017 at 4:35 PM, BOTT said:

If Chuck wants to save his own behind he should promote Philbin to OC or have Philbin design a playbook and give it to Chud.

Even though I have no pony in this race, there is no way in hades I want Philbin promoted to OC after his fiasco in Miami when he ran the football program in Florida BOTT. Over my dead body. Joe as OL coach is the best fit for our franchise. 

 

I can't put a guy in charge of motivating men ever again after that. Unit instructor fine, but key coordinator? Not on your life. 

[VocableLoki]

52 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

It is insane. And a good reason why us fans can already be excited about Ballard. Also shows what I said awhile ago, you can't cook with no ingredients. 

They weren't even using the same cookbook

[bleevit]

The logic behind keeping coach Pagano is simple. The players play hard for him. The fastest way to turn into the Cleveland Browns is to turn everybody over every couple of years. Maintaining continuity is vital to a team's success. Another year of continuity and some bodies will improve the defense and get a good shot at the divisional championship.

[ManningGM]

2 hours ago, bleevit said:

The logic behind keeping coach Pagano is simple. The players play hard for him. The fastest way to turn into the Cleveland Browns is to turn everybody over every couple of years. Maintaining continuity is vital to a team's success. Another year of continuity and some bodies will improve the defense and get a good shot at the divisional championship.

Maintaining continuity is so vital it led to back-to-back 8-8 seasons and no playoff appearances! 

 

 

[chrisfarley]

17 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Hey there HCF, 

 

I always read your posts even though I don't always respond. Yep, Pagano won't be here longer than this yr I think. Jimmy just waiting for the right guy to go after like you say. I don't hate Chuck. He's just taken us about as far as his skill set can go at the NFL level. 

In the mean time Luck burns another one of his remaining critical peak years?  I agree with the concept that Chuck will probably ultimately get replaced, on merits alone.  But I cringe at the thought that Irsay is just biding his time to look for another coach, it goes against everything that bringing on a new GM and mindset should be about, knowing full well, Luck's NFL clock is ticking and maybe clicking faster than others based on getting abused.

[NewColtsFan]

54 minutes ago, ManningGM said:

Maintaining continuity is so vital it led to back-to-back 8-8 seasons and no playoff appearances! 

 

 

 

A team that loses it's starting quarterback for 9 games has no rightful stake at making the playoffs.     Period.

 

And yet,  playing with it's 2nd string QB,  and then it's 3rd string and 4th and 5th,  it went 8-8.      Instead of feeling robbed of your place in the post-season you should see 2015 as a MASTERFUL season of coaching,  not of failure.

 

And we then went 8-8 with the worst roster we've had in the 5 years of Andrew Luck.

 

Your suffering through two disappointing seasons doesn't get an ounce of sympathy because you have no sense of perspective.        

 

You're just a fan who thinks he's entitled.      And there are plenty of you on this website.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

A team that loses it's starting quarterback for 9 games has no rightful stake at making the playoffs.     Period.

 

And yet,  playing with it's 2nd string QB,  and then it's 3rd string and 4th and 5th,  it went 8-8.      Instead of feeling robbed of your place in the post-season you should see 2015 as a MASTERFUL season of coaching,  not of failure.

 

And we then went 8-8 with the worst roster we've had in the 5 years of Andrew Luck.

 

Your suffering through two disappointing seasons doesn't get an ounce of sympathy because you have no sense of perspective.        

 

You're just a fan who thinks he's entitled.      And there are plenty of you on this website.

 

 

Most of our fanbase is spoiled. To those people that expect us to win 11 games or more every season and maybe a SB, that is unrealistic. Since 1999 we have had 11 seasons with 11 or more wins and a SB win with 2 SB appearances. I do wish people would appreciate that a little. I thought our 8-8 season in 2015 was miraculous considering Andrew was out. I thought without Andrew we would suck.

[aaron11]

24 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

And we then went 8-8 with the worst roster we've had in the 5 years of Andrew Luck.

yeah, but most of those wins without luck were against bottom feeders

 

beating the bucs, dolphins and titans is nothing to write home about.  we lost to Jacksonville too

 

the dolphins and titans almost looked like they were tanking, especially the dolphins

[bleevit]

1 hour ago, ManningGM said:

Maintaining continuity is so vital it led to back-to-back 8-8 seasons and no playoff appearances! 

 

 

True but in each case Grigson was the GM who has not had a good history with defensive picks. With an extremely young offensive line and a lot of players long of tooth on D, 8 and 8 is decent if not good. I'm not a Pagano for life enthusiast but I would say another year has been earned and a knee jerk reaction is not called for.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, aaron11 said:

yeah, but most of those wins without luck were against bottom feeders

 

beating the bucs, dolphins and titans is nothing to write home about.  we lost to Jacksonville too

 

the dolphins and titans almost looked like they were tanking, especially the dolphins

 

I don't think you mean the Dolphins.    They won 10 games and went to the playoffs.

 

[Buck Showalter]

18 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't think you mean the Dolphins.    They won 10 games and went to the playoffs.

 

He is probably referring to the 2015 season when the Colts played them & they went 6-10... 

[Buck Showalter]

1 hour ago, aaron11 said:

yeah, but most of those wins without luck were against bottom feeders

 

beating the bucs, dolphins and titans is nothing to write home about.  we lost to Jacksonville too

 

the dolphins and titans almost looked like they were tanking, especially the dolphins

You mean the 2015/2016 Dolphins who lost to the Colts in week 16, then went & played spoiler, beating the Pats in week 17???

[aaron11]

57 minutes ago, Buck Showalter said:

You mean the 2015/2016 Dolphins who lost to the Colts in week 16, then went & played spoiler, beating the Pats in week 17???

yes, and i appreciate them for that!  they had no interest in that game against the colts though

[AustexColt]

Pagano once said, "they cannot eat you" when he was in the final moments of his first contract. Well, Irsay is not going to eat him, but may have set the stage for Pagano to eat himself because he knows Pagano has just been given his total confidence to turn this ship around. Football is a team sport and so it will be up to the coaches and scouts, and finally the players to make it happen. Here is what I mean...

 

When you analyze the Patriots, the key reason they come up Gold every year is because the organization and coaches places the players to be successful. The difference is that the other NFL organizations wants the players to make them successful. For those who follow Pro Soccer, you quickly learn that you can have a collection of the best players, (like Barcelona - BARCA) and they still lose championship and games. To win in team sports you need great coaches, strategy and players. Like a three legged stool, One out of three does not work.