What's the logic behind Pagano staying?/ Irsay's Decision (Merge)

[stitches]

Irsay probably wants the new GM to make his pick of a coach or at least give his input and if the new GM wants to keep Pagano(lets say Raye is selected for GM and he already has a relationship with Pagano), it would be awkward to rehire Pagano after you've just fired him.

[backshoulderfade]

7 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

Jim Harbaugh next year 

Would be great, but I see him staying at Michigan for a long time.

 

With Shanahan, you have the benefits of getting one of the league's top young coordinators combined with the fact that he has been groomed for a HC position. He always has his Dad as an advisor and confindant. My two cents.

[1959Colts]

Seems like Irsay believes they should "keep chopping wood"

[Bluefire4]

4 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

Would be great, but I see him staying at Michigan for a long time.

 

With Shanahan, you have the benefits of getting one of the league's top young coordinators combined with the fact that he has been groomed for a HC position. He always has his Dad as an advisor and confindant. My two cents.

Shanahan is 98% the 49ers new head coach.

[backshoulderfade]

Just now, Bluefire4 said:

Shanahan is 98% the 49ers new head coach.

Stranger things have happened. Gore was 99% an Eagle. Probably have 2 more weeks to try and make a better offer. But hey, I know it's wishful thinking.

[hoosierhawk]

19 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

 Jim Harbaugh next year 

Use to want him but he is such an eccentric. don't think he could get along with a GM or anyone with authority.

[WoolMagnet]

1 hour ago, gacoop1 said:

He'll still make poor decisions, he'll still have the same coaches that are mediocre.  I don't see the logic behind it.

Pay attention.  Its been coveted in at least a dozen threads.

u trollin again coop ?

[Andrew Luck fan club]

19 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

Would be great, but I see him staying at Michigan for a long time.

 

With Shanahan, you have the benefits of getting one of the league's top young coordinators combined with the fact that he has been groomed for a HC position. He always has his Dad as an advisor and confindant. My two cents.

I'd be very happy with Shanahan too. Just don't know if that's possible.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

9 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Use to want him but he is such an eccentric. don't think he could get along with a GM or anyone with authority.

Ehh. 

[WoolMagnet]

I'm on the fence with Pags.  

However, when you remove emotion, it makes some sense.

chuck did just have us in AFC champ a couple years ago.  The new GM will need time to evaluate.  Adding a new coaching staff when Luck cant practice till at least training camp is asking alot of him.  

There isn't a real obvious choice out there for a r placement in my mind at the moment.

 This will be an attractive opportunity.  We'll have choices.  Timing with coaches is as tricky as drafts.  Some years are better than others.  This year there dont seem to be the obvious coaching candidates as other years. Also, SOME CONTINUITY is good.

who knows, i'd just rather go this route that change for change sake.

changing next year, if pags doesn't produce has merit.

or maybe Jim has a plan already. 

[Colts1324]

2 hours ago, mahagga73 said:

In that case it would be a charade to interview other candidates. Why not just give the job to Raye and be done with it? 

I agree. I'm not saying that is the case but his press conference pretty much said "We will bring in a GM who is willing to work with Pagano as HC." I think it is dumb to hire a GM and say "follow these rules." 

[mahagga73]

59 minutes ago, Colts1324 said:

I agree. I'm not saying that is the case but his press conference pretty much said "We will bring in a GM who is willing to work with Pagano as HC." I think it is dumb to hire a GM and say "follow these rules." 

That's going to severely limit our options . I'm starting to think Irsays losing it. And whatever Pagano is selling behind the scenes must be some powerful stuff . That guy has used up a lot of his 9 lives. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Colts1324 said:

I agree. I'm not saying that is the case but his press conference pretty much said "We will bring in a GM who is willing to work with Pagano as HC." I think it is dumb to hire a GM and say "follow these rules." 

 

Not really. He said Pagano will stay this year. That's reasonable. 

 

He also responded very matter-of-factly to the 'what happened to them being tied together' question. "I untied them." He went on to say he felt it was in the best interests of the organization. He's going to make the decisions he feels are best, and he's not going to be held to an overly literal interpretation of his comments.

 

Irsay isn't painting himself into any corners here. He'll keep Pagano this year, but the new GM is going to have significant input into Pagano's future. Ultimately, Irsay has always been heavily involved in head coaching decisions, and he'll continue to be involved. If a GM candidate doesn't like those terms, it's best to look elsewhere. If you can't work with Irsay being involved in these big decisions, then this isn't the job for you.

[i am yoda]

19 hours ago, Green_Ranger said:

 

 

I don't like Pagano at all and I really hope if Irsay is going to make a change he would fire Pagano as well. We need an upgrade at the coaching position. I don't believe in Pagano and as long as he's here the Colts will never win anything above a AFC South Title.

 

I'm praying Pagano is gone within a week or two of a new GM being hired.

1

 

Why the hatred for Pagano?  Sure, there have been two subpar years in a row.  But that's more traceable to personnel than to scheme or coaching.

[NewColtsFan]

 

Grigson gets one year to prove himself to fresh eyes.

 

The new GM can run the program,  and watch what/how Grigson does with the roster,  with the coaching staff,  and on game day.

 

And, after the season,  the GM can decide to keep him or fire him.     

 

Detroit just did this the past year.    They hired a new GM a year ago,  he watched Jim Caldwell,  and the GM decided to stick with Caldwell.     He did NOT fire him.    

 

So,  firing is NOT a forgone conclusion.     I think it's more likely than not that Pagano will be let go,  but I don't think the odds are overwhelmingly against him.    He's got a shot.

 

But he's going to have to be near masterful.     The staff is going to have to coach up this team to get every last bit of talent out of the players.     And there can't be any obvious glaring coaching mistakes from the sidelines.

 

That's a lot to ask for any coach,  but at the point, this is where Pagano finds himself.     Sink or swim.

 

2017 is not for the faint of heart.       Should be fascinating to watch unfold....

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, i am yoda said:

 

Why the hatred for Pagano?  Sure, there have been two subpar years in a row.  But that's more traceable to personnel than to scheme or coaching.

 

There is a lot of Pagano hate on this website.     Far more than any HC with a 49-31 record over the last 5 years, with 3-3 in the playoffs and with zero losing seasons should have to do put up with.

 

But this is the reality here.    Pagano is mostly disliked here.     Even a good number of those who like him, only like him personally and not professionally.  

 

Welcome to the website....    it's a unique place to visit....

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

There is a lot of Pagano hate on this website.     Far more than any HC with a 49-31 record over the last 5 years, with 3-3 in the playoffs and with zero losing seasons should have to do put up with.

 

But this is the reality here.    Pagano is mostly disliked here.     Even a good number of those who like him, only like him personally and not professionally.  

 

Welcome to the website....    it's a unique place to visit....

 

 

11 minutes ago, i am yoda said:

 

Why the hatred for Pagano?  Sure, there have been two subpar years in a row.  But that's more traceable to personnel than to scheme or coaching.

NewColtsFan can be overdramatic sometimes..

But his record outside the division, and continuing to have slow starts/bad gameplans is why some fans don't like Pagano. 

[NewColtsFan]

15 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

 

NewColtsFan can be overdramatic sometimes..

But his record outside the division, and continuing to have slow starts/bad gameplans is why some fans don't like Pagano. 

 

I'm not saying there's no argument for firing Pagano.      I just think there's a stronger one for keeping him one more year.

 

But if Irsay woke up tomorrow and called another press conference to announce the firing,  or if the GM fires him in February,   I'll live with it.

 

I'm not defending Pagano to the death.    I just think he's hugely unappreciated by many here....

 

People here simply don't know how to say....    "He's OK,  but if we're going to contend for a Super Bowl,  we need better than OK or average.     We need a much better coach."

 

I'd be OK with that.

 

But instead it's....    he sucks, he's terrible,  he's the worst....   on and on...

 

When I say this is an uninformed fan base,  this is the type of stuff I'm talking about.     That's why words matter.

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not saying there's no argument for firing Pagano.      I just think there's a stronger one for keeping him one more year.

 

But if Irsay woke up tomorrow and called another press conference to announce the firing,  or if the GM fires him in February,   I'll live with it.

 

I'm not defending Pagano to the death.    I just think he's hugely unappreciated by many here....

 

People here simply don't know how to say....    "He's OK,  but if we're going to contend for a Super Bowl,  we need better than OK or average.     We need a much better coach."

 

I'd be OK with that.

 

But instead it's....    he sucks, he's terrible,  he's the worst....   on and on...

 

When I say this is an uninformed fan base,  this is the type of stuff I'm talking about.     That's why words matter.

 

I've said that.. and I've seen other posters say the same thing. You can't expect everyone to say it exactly how you want it said though. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Majin Vegeta said:

I've said that.. and I've seen other posters say the same thing. You can't expect everyone to say it exactly how you want it said though. 

 

 

There are indeed some who say that....   the more measured response.    And I always appreciate that.

 

But the vast majority are pretty ugly and pretty up front about it.    They're not shy with their views.

 

This fan base pulls no punches....      I get that this is the way most fans are.....

 

I just don't happen to enjoy it.     It's the unpleasant part of being a fan for me....

 

Oh well.....    I'm a big boy,  I'll get past it....    I have been for here for my five years....

 

[Aces101]

I'm thinking Irsay is waiting for Josh McDaniels after the Super Bowl.

[Colts1324]

4 hours ago, mahagga73 said:

That's going to severely limit our options . I'm starting to think Irsays losing it. And whatever Pagano is selling behind the scenes must be some powerful stuff . That guy has used up a lot of his 9 lives. 

Pagano to Irsay: "Mr. Irsay, just remember if you fire me, I bet your next coach won't drink with you ball week instead of preparing for important games."

Irsay: "You're right Chuck. Let's give this another shot. Don't bring any of that d*** vodka next time. You know I'm a whiskey guy." Lol

[Colts1324]

3 hours ago, i am yoda said:

 

Why the hatred for Pagano?  Sure, there have been two subpar years in a row.  But that's more traceable to personnel than to scheme or coaching.

I don't hate Pagano. I dislike his coaching and Irsay's decisions for keeping him around when Luck is in his prime years. We should be viewed as top 5 Super Bowl contenders by the whole league with Luck at QB. I blame Grigson for constructing the roster wrong and chuck for making dumb decisions and always starting the game off terrible. 

[HungarianColtsFan]

On 2017. 01. 22. at 6:50 AM, Green_Ranger said:

For weeks there were reports that Jim Irsay valued GM Ryan Grigson over Pagano. For weeks I was led on to believe that if anyone were to be fired it would of been Pagano. There were reports that Jim Irsay didn't want to fire GM Ryan Grigson and hand over the keys to Jon Gruden, but he would have clearly fired Pagano for Gruden in a heartbeat if he was willing to work with GM Ryan Grigson.

 

So now Grigson gets the axe and Irsay claims that Pagano will be our coach for the 2017 season. Irsay also stated he will be hiring a new GM who will come in and evaluate the team from top to bottom.

 

So what if the new GM doesn't want Pagano? Doesn't he have the right to fire him?

 

I don't like Pagano at all and I really hope if Irsay is going to make a change he would fire Pagano as well. We need an upgrade at the coaching position. I don't believe in Pagano and as long as he's here the Colts will never win anything above a AFC South Title.

 

I'm praying Pagano is gone within a week or two of a new GM being hired.

 

I haven't read all the comments here, and I'm sure this has been already posted, but my take is:

 

It is easier to claim someone to be fired than finding the right replacement. According to latest news we have been trying to get Sean Payton for 2 years now, without any result. I think if there was a good chance for trading for Payton successfully, Pagano was also gone along with Grigson. IMH Grigson & Pagano received extension last year only because there wasn't any serviceable replacement, so Irsay kept them and did efforts to make those 2 working along. I think Grigson was fired for Irsay finding a better candidate (either  Jimmy Raye III or other one, I'm surprised he didn't announced it already on Saturday,  seems like hunt isn't done yet but nearing end, and he didn't want to keep Grigson in further limbo).  

 

As soon as Irsay finds a new HC candidate who he believes being an upgrade over Pagano, Chuck will be gone too. I really like Chuck, but this is a business, and he failed in many ways (just think of our D or playcalling).

 

Irsay's silence after end of the regular season spoke for itself.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. He said Pagano will stay this year. That's reasonable. 

 

He also responded very matter-of-factly to the 'what happened to them being tied together' question. "I untied them." He went on to say he felt it was in the best interests of the organization. He's going to make the decisions he feels are best, and he's not going to be held to an overly literal interpretation of his comments.

 

Irsay isn't painting himself into any corners here. He'll keep Pagano this year, but the new GM is going to have significant input into Pagano's future. 

 

Exactly. I will also add that there might be a couple of good reasons why Irsay will keep Pagano this year although he is clearly not sold on him.

1) It is going to make at least one season to get the Defense in decent shape no matter what, and since 2017 will not be a SB run anyway, not much is lost with keeping Pagano.

2) Irsay would like one more year to get a look at the new coaching group. Philbin looks like a great addition, but Monachino needs one more year and a half decent Defense to work with before we know whether he might be the real deal or got to be a DC too soon. If Irsay is smart - and I think he is - he would want to see whether Chud can improve too.

 

It will be a limbo year no matter what, even if we hopefully get to the playoffs, so let's see if we have some coaches that can take it to the next level instead of blowing things up on that front a second year in a row.

 

At least I think that is Irsay's reasoning when he couldn't get a high caliber HC now.

[NannyMcafee]

13 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

Shanahan is 98% the 49ers new head coach.

 

Dont the 49'ers have to wait until the SB ends before they can make him an offer? Therefore is this not 100% speculation? Even by the NFLs part? Don't you think, Shanahan would be absolutely, 100% INSANE to choose sanfran over Indy? 

[tfunky14]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Grigson gets one year to prove himself to fresh eyes.

 

The new GM can run the program,  and watch what/how Grigson does with the roster,  with the coaching staff,  and on game day.

 

And, after the season,  the GM can decide to keep him or fire him.     

 

Detroit just did this the past year.    They hired a new GM a year ago,  he watched Jim Caldwell,  and the GM decided to stick with Caldwell.     He did NOT fire him.    

 

So,  firing is NOT a forgone conclusion.     I think it's more likely than not that Pagano will be let go,  but I don't think the odds are overwhelmingly against him.    He's got a shot.

 

But he's going to have to be near masterful.     The staff is going to have to coach up this team to get every last bit of talent out of the players.     And there can't be any obvious glaring coaching mistakes from the sidelines.

 

That's a lot to ask for any coach,  but at the point, this is where Pagano finds himself.     Sink or swim.

 

2017 is not for the faint of heart.       Should be fascinating to watch unfold....

 

 

 

Well said..

[DougDew]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Irsay's exact words "Chuck is our coach GOING INTO 2017"?.

 

We're into 2017 now, but that doesn't mean he'll be the coach next season, and Irsay could be looking.

 

But he may have said other comments more directly placing Pagano as next season's coach.

[CoachLite]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:02 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

When the new GM is hired,  it will be with the understanding that Pagano will get a year to prove himself to the new GM.      And to approach keeping him with an open mind.

 

But.....

 

If the season is another disappointing one,  then the GM gets to fire Pagano and hire his guy.

 

This is not going to be a problem.     This has happened elsewhere....    it can happen here.

 

 

If Jim Irsay puts this condition on any incoming GM, that may preclude any truly competent GM from accepting the Colts GM position - open mind or not. It seems that there isn't "logic" in the recent decisions, only reactions to gut feelings. "People aren't logical, they're psychological". That is an extremely dangerous condition for any organization. There needs to be a validated "rubric" for evaluating GMs, coaches, staff and players. With as many misses as the Colts have had in this regard - GM, coaches and players - I suspect either the rubric is faulty or, more probably, non-existent and the decisions are made "by the seat of the pants". That opens advice only to confirmation bias - a death knell for any organization.

[CoachLite]

3 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

 

If Jim Irsay puts this condition on any incoming GM, that may preclude any truly competent GM from accepting the Colts GM position - open mind or not. It seems that there isn't "logic" in the recent decisions, only reactions to gut feelings. "People aren't logical, they're psychological". That is an extremely dangerous condition for any organization. There needs to be a validated "rubric" for evaluating GMs, coaches, staff and players. With as many misses as the Colts have had in this regard - GM, coaches and players - I suspect either the rubric is faulty or, more probably, non-existent and the decisions are made "by the seat of the pants". That opens advice only to confirmation bias - a death knell for any organization.

 

For some context, in business a rubric is a document "used as part of a formative, professional-centered approach to assessment". "Rubrics have the potential to help professionals develop understanding and skill, as well as make dependable judgments about the quality of their own work." This demands using the right metrics (for example, win-loss might not be meaningful in all cases).

[JColts72]

Why should Chuck stay for 17? It's not like anything will be different with his coaching style.

[CoachLite]

1 minute ago, JColts72 said:

Why should Chuck stay for 17? It's not like anything will be different with his coaching style.

 

I guess because at this point there is no one willing to take the job, the expectations aren't very high and the pay isn't bad.

[lollygagger8]

Throw a truckload of money at Kyle Shanahan please. 

[WarGhost21]

I don't see a clear reason as to the decision between these two, but I think what it all worked down to in Irsay's head was who the players wanted. Everyone on this team loves Pagano, and even though his decision making is angering at times for us fans, it's pretty hard for us to not like him too. He's a genuine guy, and I believe he is one of the kindest and most caring coaches in the league. He just lets off a sense of friendliness whenever he's around. Grigson, meanwhile.... well, if you look a Pat McCafee's Twitter account, that basically sums up the locker room love for Grigson. As bad as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if we go 13-3 next season with Grigson's arrogance long gone. Here's looking forward!!

[deedub75]

12 hours ago, mahagga73 said:

That's going to severely limit our options . I'm starting to think Irsays losing it. And whatever Pagano is selling behind the scenes must be some powerful stuff . That guy has used up a lot of his 9 lives. 

 

Irsay has really bungled this entire thing. There's no way he just woke up and decided to can Grigson. The relationship between Grigson and Pagano was broken last season and Grigson should have been canned then. Instead, Irsay told them to play nice and gave them shiny new contracts. This was kindergarten stuff here. Just like my mom forcing me to apologize to my little brother for hitting him. Of course I apologized but I didn't mean it. Irsay is the biggest problem we have right now. 

[deedub75]

4 minutes ago, WarGhost21 said:

I don't see a clear reason as to the decision between these two, but I think what it all worked down to in Irsay's head was who the players wanted. Everyone on this team loves Pagano, and even though his decision making is angering at times for us fans, it's pretty hard for us to not like him too. He's a genuine guy, and I believe he is one of the kindest and most caring coaches in the league. He just lets off a sense of friendliness whenever he's around. Grigson, meanwhile.... well, if you look a Pat McCafee's Twitter account, that basically sums up the locker room love for Grigson. As bad as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if we go 13-3 next season with Grigson's arrogance long gone. Here's looking forward!!

 

I think they love Pagano so much because he's too easy on them. They look at him as more of a friend than a head coach. Remember those reports that came out a couple of months ago stating that Pagano didn't hold players accountable. 

[WarGhost21]

23 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

 

I think they love Pagano so much because he's too easy on them. They look at him as more of a friend than a head coach. Remember those reports that came out a couple of months ago stating that Pagano didn't hold players accountable. 

True, but I'd rather have a friendly coach than a arrogant GM who can't draft. I'm not a big fan of Pagano's being easy on the guys but he's much better than Grigson.

[Valpo2004]

From what I'm reading it sounds like a big part of this might have been players.

 

Players love Chuck that's been made clear.  But I'm also reading that many people in the organization didn't like Grigs and that includes players, Pagano, and others.

 

I'm happy to be rid of Grigson because in my view he was the bigger problem.  Too many draft picks busted and too many free agents busted.  I do think we could improve over Pagano though too and wouldn't mind seeing him go.

 

I would not be entirely convinced his job is safe just yet.  Irsay might see what his new GM wants to do.  If he hires his new GM from within then Pagano's job is probably safe.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind getting Kyle Shannahan on board as the new HC.  

[Andrew Luck fan club]

1 hour ago, deedub75 said:

 

I think they love Pagano so much because he's too easy on them. They look at him as more of a friend than a head coach. Remember those reports that came out a couple of months ago stating that Pagano didn't hold players accountable. 

Well there was reports after the season ended that some players felt they weren't being coached hard enough.

[CoachLite]

Good players want a coach that will help them be successful. It's not whether the coach is being "easy" or "hard", it's doing whatever it takes. Obviously, that is lacking in Pagano. Some coaches don't have a clue what that entails. But, I've found no one can reach their potential without having a great coach - in business or sports.

 

Amazing how often conventional wisdom is wrong, and not very wise at all.