PFF: Colts' secondary ranks 31st(out 32) and TJ Green is dead last in both overall and coverage grades

[ClaytonColt]

I know a lot of you guys will disagree but every time I see how bad our defense is and how we lack even mediocre play makers I just can't believe we picked a centre at 18 last year.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

17 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

That's actually who I thought we were gonna take as the draft unfolded.  Bell or whitehair.  I wasn't thrilled with the green pick,  but have to be hopeful

I thought Bell too, cause all the commentator guys were saying he was the next safety on the board. Whitehair was a well-known name too.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

1 minute ago, ClaytonColt said:

I know a lot of you guys will disagree but every time I see how bad our defense is and how we lack even mediocre play makers I just can't believe we picked a centre at 18 last year.

Well we needed the C and he was a good talent. If you wanna be shocked, be shocked we took a wr in the 1st the year before.

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

I know a lot of you guys will disagree but every time I see how bad our defense is and how we lack even mediocre play makers I just can't believe we picked a centre at 18 last year.

Who else do you take there?  Lawson?  Lee?

[ClaytonColt]

3 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

Well we needed the C and he was a good talent. If you wanna be shocked, be shocked we took a wr in the 1st the year before.

I'm not overly delighted about that either but at least 1st round receivers sometimes become difference makers.

 

The Texans just took the division off us with an undrafted center and Brock but they've invested heavily in the defense while ours has withered away.

..

 

 

[ClaytonColt]

8 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Who else do you take there?  Lawson?  Lee?

Lawson but it doesn't really matter who I'd have picked. It's more about the strategy we have built on since Luck arrived which is all about offence while the D got old, slow and bad. 

 

And now we're surprised we are falling behind in the division and have one of the worst defensive squads in the league?

 

[Jason_]

Sorry, double post

[Jason_]

50 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

 

I had to get out my dam protractor

[LockeDown]

I remember when Irsay said we needed to become younger.  Well....there you go.  

[Andrew Luck fan club]

24 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

I'm not overly delighted about that either but at least 1st round receivers sometimes become difference makers.

 

The Texans just took the division off us with an undrafted center and Brock but they've invested heavily in the defense while ours has withered away.

..

 

 

We had a difference maker in Hilton, we needed a defender there.

And if we have a good offseason, the Colts can take the division back next year

[myic90]

well FWIW landon collins was ranked last by PFF last year as well according to somebody over at stampede blue.

 

But i don't know if we can get him to improve his ball tracking. Usually you either have it or you don't.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

4 minutes ago, myic90 said:

well FWIW landon collins was ranked last by PFF last year as well according to somebody over at stampede blue.

 

But i don't know if we can get him to improve his ball tracking. Usually you either have it or you don't.

He still made a ton of plays. Green didn't. 

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

He still made a ton of plays. Green didn't. 

I think the point of post was,   He can get better

[Andrew Luck fan club]

20 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I think the point of post was,   He can get better

If that was the point of the post, then yeah, obviously he can get better. 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, 12to13 said:

If that was the point of the post, then yeah, obviously he can get better. 

I said I think it was.  Lol

[Andrew Luck fan club]

4 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I said I think it was.  Lol

Hey I'm just telling that guy not to expect Green to improve as much as collins did. 

[Superman]

4 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Part of that warning was it would take a year or so to really make strides (he hadn't played much safety at all in college if I recall correctly).  If you dislike drafting him because we shouldn't spend a 2nd on a project player, that's one thing and a fair argument.  Criticizing the Colts because he didn't do well in his first yera really isn't a strong criticism because it was expected when "they tried to warn us."

 

He wound up starting in Week 1 when he probably should have been restricted to special teams at the time. He was thrust into the lineup way before he was ready, and his technical flaws were exposed from that point forward.

 

Watch his college tape and you can see that he can't track the ball in the air; that's probably why he didn't make it as a WR. You see he lacks discipline in the open field, especially breaking down to tackle. He doesn't mirror receivers well in man coverage. It's not hard for a good OC to exploit him in matchups.

 

I don't care about PFF's grading, but none of this is surprising.

 

I wonder about his instincts and football IQ; if he can't play smarter, he won't make it. If he can, his other issues can be coached up and refined. 

[dgambill]

Sometimes you take a look at the measurables and you say this kid just jumps off the paper. He wasn't a first rd pick...he was a 2nd and they traded back on top of that when they still took him. I've got no problem taking a gamble in the 2nd 3rd rd. Of course you better nail your first pick and you better show a history of getting some of these guys right. It's hard for the Colts to take these chances...they have so many holes to fill but if you want a  Cam Chancellor or Richard Sherman you have to take these types of chances on guys with raw talent and hope some hit. He still has a chance to get better but if Chuck was jumping up and down for him then Chuck needs to coach this kid up. I hope he turns it around.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

48 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I wonder about his instincts and football IQ; if he can't play smarter, he won't make it. If he can, his other issues can be coached up and refined. 

And it's really that simple.

What are your expectations for Green next year? Starter or rotational guy?

[tvturner]

If you thought Green would be a stud year one, then that's on you. Maybe we picked him early/shouldn't have at all but he's raw, he's got the skillset, and he's got the measurables. He shouldn't have ever started Week 1, injuries thrust him there.

[colts8718]

7 hours ago, Boiler_Colt said:

They tried to warn us when we drafted him. But hey, he's fast right?

Another one of Grigson's gut feelings

[Coltfreak]

6 hours ago, Synthetic said:

 

Wait, no Patrick Robinson? 

 

Tried to tell you all that he was horrible in N.O. and no one listened to me last summer. 

I was saying the same thing.   I was told I was crazy.   He just needed to be around the DB whisperer HA.    That acquisition has Pagano written all over it 

[Coltfreak]

Ok.  Who was it arguing with me about Green? Come on you know who you are.  I said he sucked. You said I was crazy.    Time to eat some crow buddy.    Don't make me look up another post and quote you.    Step up and gobble down that blackbird 

[bigt]

7 hours ago, Boiler_Colt said:

PFF had him rated as the worst in coverage coming out of college too, is what I meant.

Better watch out with this post Boiler.  All the PFF haters might come out and try to educate you on the worthlessness of their rating system.

[Surge89]

5 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I agree a good leader always listens to his subordinates (Iassuming he/she has done a good job hiring subordinates) but you don't give them the final say.

 

This isn't necessarily directed at you Steamboat, but I am surprised at how many hardcore football fans don't understand the relationship between HC and GM.  In a nutshell, the coach and GM get together and the coach describes the traits he wants in a player at each position and then he and the GM assign a priority and weight to each trait.  Then the GM leads the scouting department to grade each player they scout and assign a number to each of those traits, then it's simple math, multiply the trait number by the trait weight, add all those numbers together and there is the player grade.

 

So, for example the coach and gm are looking at CB, coach says the traits that are important are height, arm length, acceleration, football intelligence, speed and jumping ability.  Then they decide they assign the following weights to each trait

Football Intelligence (1.0)

Acceleration (0.93)

height (0.88)

Arm Length (0.75)

Speed (0.85)

Jumping ability (0.70)

 

So the scout grades Player A

FI - 93 x 1 = 93

Acc - 96 x 0.93 = 89.28

Height 85 x 0.88 =74.8

AL - 92 x 0.75 = 69

Speed 88 x 0.85 =  74.8

JA - 99 x 0.7 = 69.3

 

Total Grade = 470.18

 

So the scout grades Player B

FI - 85 x 1 = 85

Acc - 99 x 0.93 = 92.07

Height 95 x 0.88 =83.6

AL - 92 x 0.75 = 69

Speed 93 x 0.85 =  79.05

JA - 85 x 0.7 = 59.5

 

Total Grade = 468.22

 

Now, if Player A and Player B are available, even if the coach is pounding on the table saying he's wants player B... the GM needs to say no and choose player B.  If he gives in, then that is on the GM.  And that is true even if Player a and player B play different positions.

 

 

 

That is how I don't understand why Green was taken this high... unless our staff doesn't value instincts, football knowledge, or fundamental awareness to position...

 

When I did my yearly draft time board my rating on Green was 6th round.  Everything I questioned showed up...  I mean he had amazing scores on everything with his body but when all of that is weighted at a 10% decreasing margin to what his brain can do you see him for what he is.  An athlete not a football player. 

 

But I digress I've had this argument with way too many people about this pick. 

[OffensivelyPC]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

He wound up starting in Week 1 when he probably should have been restricted to special teams at the time. He was thrust into the lineup way before he was ready, and his technical flaws were exposed from that point forward.

 

Watch his college tape and you can see that he can't track the ball in the air; that's probably why he didn't make it as a WR. You see he lacks discipline in the open field, especially breaking down to tackle. He doesn't mirror receivers well in man coverage. It's not hard for a good OC to exploit him in matchups.

 

I don't care about PFF's grading, but none of this is surprising.

 

I wonder about his instincts and football IQ; if he can't play smarter, he won't make it. If he can, his other issues can be coached up and refined. 

Thats ultimately the bottom line. Im not always thrilled about drafting a project guy in the second when field awareness/recognition is a primary issue, but its not hard to become enamored with his natural abilities.  But yeah, we'll see...

[zibby43]

13 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Thats bad for a HC who is supposed to be a DB whisperer. Though there have been injuries and other things in the secondary, if you're known as a DB specialist, that unit should probably be better than 31st in your 5th season. I don't care much for PFF, but this is one of the times they are right IMO.

 

There were a few times where that unit played well, with individuals like Melvin and even Morris playing decently, but overall they were not good.

 

Can't dispute what you're saying given the results.

 

That said, if you take a "good" secondary and provide them almost no pass rush whatsoever, then that "good" group will start looking average pretty quickly. 

 

The longer you're asked to cover, the harder it is to succeed.  And the deck is already stacked against DBs with all of the holding, illegal contact, and pass interference penalties that get called/enforced these days.

 

I think Pagano likes guys that can play man coverage/press coverage.  However, when guys like Melvin play, they usually have him play zone and they have to give him Safety help over the top (trying to mask the weakness of one player can adversely affect the remaining pieces in the Secondary).

[Deadpool]

17 hours ago, stitches said:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-secondaries-this-season/

 

 

 

My eye test doesn't seem to have lied to me. TJ Green seemed like a complete liability every time he was required to cover. I don't think he ever turns his head towards the ball in coverage. It's really discouraging that we didn't see any progress whatsoever by the end of the year. I felt like this was a wasted pick at the time and I still have hard time justifying it.

This is why I still hate the dorsett pick in the first round when Landon Collins was still on the board. we would have a pretty good Safety back there right now. 

[Coltfreak]

1 minute ago, Deadpool said:

This is why I still hate the dorsett pick in the first round when Landon Collins was still on the board. we would have a pretty good Safety back there right now. 

agree (now) but I think in the long run we have Geathers and hopefully Butler back there.   I still hope they can somehow get Peppers with the 1st pick but I doubt he'll be available for us 

[tikyle]

17 hours ago, Flash7 said:

Green is a player with great measurables and raw talent, but very little experience. 

 

If it was expected that he would play horribly his first year, then they should not have played him or drafted him. Draft a player that you expect to play well.

 

I don't agree with this.  If it is expected he would play horribly his first year, then they did exactly what they should've done.  Get him some good PT his rookie year so he can develop.  The NFL draft is not where you draft a guy ready to start always.  Sometimes you draft a guy with potential who blossoms into a monster (see Robert Mathis).

[John Waylon]

We weren't last?

I demand a recount. Someone screwed up somewhere.

*

[aaron11]

14 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

The Texans just took the division off us with an undrafted center and Brock but they've invested heavily in the defense while ours has withered away.

..

the colts did try putting late round picks and and undrafted guys there in front of luck but it didnt work

 

we couldnt afford to keep missing at that position, so they went with the "safe" pick

 

 

[aaron11]

17 hours ago, Synthetic said:

Tried to tell you all that he was horrible in N.O. and no one listened to me last summer. 

get over your self, most of us thought the same

 

i dont know a single soul that was excited over that pick up

 

 

[PeterBowman]

4 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

the colts did try putting late round picks and and undrafted guys there in front of luck but it didnt work

 

we couldnt afford to keep missing at that position, so they went with the "safe" pick

 

 

and that "safe" pick is working pretty damned well.

[corgi]

11 hours ago, colts8718 said:

Another one of Grigson's gut feelings

I think Pagano was the one who jumped up on the table and was screaming "Draft him!"

[ClaytonColt]

13 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

the colts did try putting late round picks and and undrafted guys there in front of luck but it didnt work

 

we couldnt afford to keep missing at that position, so they went with the "safe" pick

 

 

And look at all the progress we made because of it.

[lollygagger8]

I'm more worried about Vontae playing as poorly as he has more so than TJ Green as a rookie (who was forced to play due to injuries). 

 

The other part of this is, do you rely on Mike Adams at (will be 36) next year? I'm a huge fan of his, but will he still be able to perform at a high level at that age? 

 

Also, I'm a huge Geathers fan, but he does get injured a lot, and if both him and Adams got hurt, we are in a tough spot at safety.......again. 

[jet1968]

Without getting any grades or rankings from anyone I could have said Colts secondary is terrible. Just as an amatuer watching them it is pretty evident that they don't do a good job.

[Defjamz26]

3 hours ago, tikyle said:

 

I don't agree with this.  If it is expected he would play horribly his first year, then they did exactly what they should've done.  Get him some good PT his rookie year so he can develop.  The NFL draft is not where you draft a guy ready to start always.  Sometimes you draft a guy with potential who blossoms into a monster (see Robert Mathis).

Yeah but you usually draft guys who can at least play football. Green can't do anything tbh. It's a lot to expect him to make some huge turn around in year 2.

[Coffeedrinker]

12 hours ago, Surge89 said:

 

That is how I don't understand why Green was taken this high... unless our staff doesn't value instincts, football knowledge, or fundamental awareness to position...

 

When I did my yearly draft time board my rating on Green was 6th round.  Everything I questioned showed up...  I mean he had amazing scores on everything with his body but when all of that is weighted at a 10% decreasing margin to what his brain can do you see him for what he is.  An athlete not a football player. 

 

But I digress I've had this argument with way too many people about this pick. 

It could be has Steamboat speculates and Grigson gives in when Pags pounds his fist.  

 

My specualtion is because Pagano puts a much higher weight on measurables... more specifically, speed, height and weight.  Dungy and Caldwell seemed to put more weight in field experience, football program.  But again that is just my speculation.